Thread 24636417

If God is all-knowing and all-powerful, and created humanity with free will, does God know what choices we will make before we make them? If so, are our choices truly free? I want Books that explores that subject in detail

>>24636417 (OP)
Start with the bible

>>24636417 (OP)
God is all knowing so I guess Yes

Shakespeare talks about this.

>>24636619
What

>>24636628
>She should have died hereafter;
There would have been a time for such a word.
Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury
Signifying nothing.

Read this, I'm not joking, eight-eight times. It contains every answer, and a million more.

>>24636663
Sometimes God wants to fuck around with free will, like how he made humans free willed enough to think of what the Apache Indians, Japanese or men in the 30 year war did to other men/women/children but not free enough to understand God (in who's image we're made). Of cause we shouldn't really expect a Being who has absolute dominion over reality (Book of Job answers this you fucking child) to alter reality for us not to eviscerate people for science

If freedom means possibility, as in it is possible for this or that to happen, then no we are not free. Even if there is no God you are not free. You are bound by causation.

>>24636417 (OP)
Gonna drop some relevant sections of scripture for discussion. Please feel free to state your mind, anons.
Romans 9:14-20
>What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
<For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
>So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
>For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
>Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
>Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
>Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
>Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

>>24636707
LOL epic greentext fail
Isaiah 45:9-10
>Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
>Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

>>24636417 (OP)
I ask yet one more question: if God is all-knowing and all-powerful, is He not more responsible for a man’s decisions to do good or evil than the man?
Job 14:1-3, 16
>Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble.
>He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not.
>And dost thou open thine eyes upon such a one, and bringest me into judgment with thee?
>For now thou numberest my steps: dost thou not watch over my sin?

>>24636417 (OP)
god if god exists made us free will so of course he doesn't know how we will decide but still he is all-knowing as he knows everything that could happen

>>24636730
>he doesn't know
Doesn't sound like God. Maybe you're thinking of some heretical idol?

>>24636739
what I said is perfectly fine... read it again

>>24636417 (OP)
The outcome being known in advance (by God or through any other means) has fundamentally nothing to do with freedom of will.

Like
>your wife knows that you like butt stuff
>she predicts that you're going to fuck her in the ass tonight
>you do fuck her in the ass
>ergo fucking her in the ass is not actually your choice, you have no free will, you are a flesh automaton animated by neurotransmitters or something
>now if you decided to fuck her or someone else in the ass for absolutely no discernable cause or reason - well then you would be a Based Free Self-Mover

Neither people's actions being or not being predictable nor people's preferences bein affected by external factors has any bearing on the freedom of those actions. It's pure semantic masturbation.

A choice allows you to exercise your free will if it's conditions give you the opportunity to choose based on your own personal preferences and inclinations, regardless of what is the cause of those preferences. That is, a choice that is based on interrogation of the self, as opposed to a choice based on interrogation of external conditions.

One may not (and typically does not) have much choice in how those preferences are formed, which means we are not free to chose our own nature, but that's a different question altogether.

>>24636768
>your wife knows that you like butt stuff
>she predicts that you're going to fuck her in the ass tonight
>you do fuck her in the ass
Come to think of it - since OP has a tremendous preference for sucking cock, and we know in advance that he is going to suck cock today, and tomorrow, and the day after that - would that make a case for OP not sucking cock out of his own free will, and therefore not being responsible for the act?

This whole line of thinking implies that OP is not a fag, which is self-evidently false.

OP might be obsessed with unwashed thick nigger cocks entirely due to being contently anally and orally molested by his numerous negro stepfather during his formative years, but externality of this factor in no way contradicts his faggotry, and his own responsibility for waking up every day and choosing a amssive nigger cock ejaculating into his mouth out of all the infinite possibilities for the day.

>>24636417 (OP)
>does God know what choices we will make before we make them?
>before
God exists outside of time, there is no "before" or "after" for Him, this question has no meaning

>>24636417 (OP)
God is outside of time.

Read the consolation of philosophy by Boethius. It covers that issue specifically in the second half.

>>24636795
>God exists outside of time, there is no "before" or "after" for Him, this question has no meaning
Go also exists outside of space, but this somehow gave him no issues when directing Isaac to a place where he must give his son as a burnt offering.

If God can differentiate here from there, he should have no trouble differentiating yesterday from tomorrow, even if he is not subject to their flow.

>>24636673
he he ever fucks with free will, there is no such thing.

>How does the [imaginary attribute] of our [imaginary friend] work?
The serious conversation ends there.

>>24636831
Are you serious or is this trolling?

I guess it doesn’t matter but you are obligated to read the consolation of philosophy. It will cure you of your confusion.

>>24636844
This is not trolling.

Even if God experiences all time outside of time, he should understand the idea of creating a man's nature yesterday and perceiving the same man's nature tomorrow.

>>24636856
By the way you are writing, I’m not sure I understand your concept of god. It seems you’re talking about a being that is restricted by his own creation like a creature would be.

>>24636795
pure cope, you have no arguments, logical or textual, to support God being "outside of time". You simply use complete incoherence as a talisman to ward off pesky cognitive dissonance.

>>24636872
>It seems you’re talking about a being that is restricted by his own creation like a creature would be.
The whole point is God being unrestricted by his own creatin in no way precludes him from understanding the nature and consequences of limitations that he imposed on his creations.

"Before" and "after" having no meaning to a God makes as much sense as "life" and "death" having no meaning to Him and therefore Jesus' sacrifice being fundamentally meaningless.

Just because God is not bound by X does not mean he would see no meaning in the consequences of X being applied to his beloved creations.

>>24636889
I’m not the anon who talked about “before” and “after” having no meaning to god. I’m the one from the following post.

Time has no meaning to god as being god. Time and space have meaning only to creation. But since god is the creator who keeps everything created in existence,he is the cause of everything in creation, like the concept of death, the passing of time and so on. God must have understanding of these concepts for mankind, he’s the author of history.
I can grant you, that it gets tricky when the incarnation is considered, because god incarnated at a specific time in history, then sacrificed himself on a specific point in time, resurrected an went to heaven where Christ has still a transformed body.

But you can only go so far with reason alone. At some point faith has to take over to grasp truths of the faith.

Yes, God knows that. Anyone making excuses for God not knowing is literally reducing God's abilities.

I think people do this due to death anxiety as they want all of their decisions to have meaning and removing the notion that they acted of their own will removes such meaning. Usually narcissists are most disturbed by this.

In the context of negative theology as well I think about that. If the attributes of god might be described negatively what can be gathered about the attributes of time.

>>24636417 (OP)
How? How does him knowing what YOU will CHOOSE mean there's no free will? You still chose it. Are you retarded or are you intentionally being a bad actor? Or are you looking for an excuse to commit your sinful deeds?

>>24636663
I don't think the proper reading of this contradicts free will. As God is without time, this ought be taken to mean that Pharaoh was created in such a way that he would not listen to Moses and Aaron.

I don't think free will can be taken as strictly contradicting determinism; then, it would have to be random, and one cannot meaningfully control a random will. Rather, to have free will is not to be governed merely by the interaction of your being with other beings (like particles colliding) but by your own form (i.e. soul) as applied to your matter.

Thus, Pharaoh was formed in a way that he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, but as it was his form, his soul, that determined this, it is still proper to say that Pharaoh has free will.

Furthermore, this is why traditionally, Christians do not think normal humans have perfectly free will. If man's telos is implicit in his form, then man's fall, his deviation from his telos, subjects him to outside influence, depriving him - to some extent - of his free will.

>>24636702
What is causation?

>>24637944
A driver runs a red light and hits another car. But for the driver running the red light, the accident wouldn't have happened. Therefore, the driver's action is a factual cause of the accident

A surgeon mistakenly leaves a surgical sponge inside a patient. The patient later develops an infection. But for the surgeon's negligence, the infection would not have occurred.

A person throws a lit cigarette into a field, starting a small fire. A firefighter responding to the scene has a heart attack. While throwing the cigarette is the actual cause of the fire, the firefighter's heart attack is likely not a foreseeable result of that action.

>>24638022
Thank you anon.

God has a superpower to never be wrong
God knows I will eat a ham sandwich for breakfast tomorrow, he even makes a prophecy about this
Tomorrow comes, and I simply utilize my free will to choose cereal for breakfast

What gives???

>>24636665
Nihilistic

>>24636843
>Free will and God are imaginary because.... I SAID SO!!!!

>>24636922
>Usually narcissists are most disturbed by this.
>jewish psychologizing

>>24636417 (OP)
>Everything that people do serves his divine plan
>Still pretends there are good and bad actions
Why is God like this?

>>24636417 (OP)
God is good

>>24636417 (OP)
>God
Goddess*
Here, I corrected it for you.

>>24639321
Wrong

>>24636417 (OP)
More of a comic but the Watchmen basically deals with this

kan any wize pisin explain dis ting to me