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Thread 24644858

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Anonymous No.24644858 >>24644977 >>24645099 >>24647505 >>24649193 >>24649430 >>24650508
you gonna get it?
Anonymous No.24644891 >>24644967 >>24650561
I'm reading the collections as we speak. I have these though. Euripides is on the way. I've only read Aeschylus so far, but they were fantastic so I just bought all the Tragedians stuff since everyone seems to think they only get better.
Anonymous No.24644967 >>24644972
>>24644891
I got both Aeschylus books in a used book store for the price of one of them. It's like someone bought them and immediately sold them.
Anonymous No.24644972
>>24644967
That’s called the Lattimore experience
Anonymous No.24644977
>>24644858 (OP)
Why would I? I don't read books.
Anonymous No.24645099 >>24649430
>>24644858 (OP)
What's a play? Is it like a poem? Does it read like the Iliad?
Anonymous No.24646906 >>24646967 >>24647399 >>24649193
I fucking hate anthologies like this that aren't 'complete works of' style anthologies. What's the fucking point of leaving something out? It just means people have to go and track shit down.
Anonymous No.24646959
Bought a bunch of Greek theater anthologies at a used book store a while back and stuck them on the eventuality shelf, recently checked with dismay to discover they were not Lattimore or Fagles because I didn‘t know what the fuck I was doing at the time.

Yeah I might buy an extensive set which corrects this oversight.
Anonymous No.24646967
>>24646906
Oy vey just pay extra for the missing works
Anonymous No.24647399
>>24646906
some books are better than other books, anon.
Anonymous No.24647505 >>24649194
>>24644858 (OP)
>L*ttimore
Anonymous No.24649193 >>24649198
>>24644858 (OP)
I'd definitely get it as a gift for others, but I'm in too deep myself to purchase it for my library.

>>24646906
Clearly you have not read enough tragedies because there genuinely are a few that just aren't worth reading.
Anonymous No.24649194 >>24649202 >>24649380
>>24647505
Kill yourself, unironically.
Anonymous No.24649198 >>24649206 >>24649208
>>24649193
Which ones do you think aren't worth reading?
Anonymous No.24649202
>>24649194
Don't be so mean dude.
Anonymous No.24649206 >>24649232
>>24649198
Of Euripides? Well 18 full plays survive along with one satyr play. The major ones like Trojan women and Medea are necessary must reads for Greek lit but minor ones no one really cares too much about like Rhesus, you can skip.
Anonymous No.24649208 >>24649368
>>24649198
For Aeschylus, he was fortunate enough to only have the (relatively) good plays survive, but I'm not the biggest fan of Prometheus Bound or The Eumenides.

For Sophocles, while I've written papers on his works, I think that Ajax and Philoctetes just do not compete with the Oedipus plays and Electra.

For Euripides, he has the misfortune of having the most plays survive, so among those that aren't worth reading are:
>Heracleidae
>Rhesus
>Ion
I'm also gonna include Helen, but that's because Trojan Women and Hecabe are way better.
Anonymous No.24649232
>>24649206
Or, hear me out, you like his works and want to check out more
Jon Kolner No.24649368 >>24649442 >>24649493
>>24649208
Nah, Helen is important if only for the recontextualizing of Helen, from home wrecker who carelessly started the war to innocent victim of the gods or more accurately victim of fate since it is all destined. It is a key part of Euripides and what his main themes were as regards fate and the gods messing around with humans and starting wars and strife as well as his ideas of gender roles, usually taking female characters traditionally seen as evil like Helen or Medea and showing their side of the story so to speak.

Non-key Euripides plays are the satyr one along with Rhesus and Ion and other minor ones like that. Hippolytus too.
Anonymous No.24649380 >>24649442
>>24649194
Be meaner dude (it is justified.)
Anonymous No.24649430
>>24644858 (OP)
>edited by
Who did the actual translations? This habit is a scourge.

>>24645099
>t. Averroës
Anonymous No.24649442 >>24649480
>>24649368
Honestly, yeah you make a good point. I think Hippolytos is...fine enough; it's not that great, like you said, but I definitely think you hit it on the head with your take on Euripides.

I will slightly nitpick and say that Helen was already being recontextualised a little bit in the Iliad itself, but overall I get what you mean.

>>24649380
I have learned kindness
Jon Kolner No.24649480 >>24649526
>>24649442
Like you said, Helen is given characterization in the Iliad but Euripides really elevates her to a whole different level. The play titled Helen is emblematic of his style - “evil women” as being misrepresented entirely in previous versions of the story, women possession male wisdom (sophrosyne is an attribute given to Medea in her play and it is of course a masculine word and likewise Helen is the most noble and clever woman to appear in her play) and gods as evil and cruel people who relish in terrorizing man- this last point is most clearly felt in Helen.

I’d say the most important Euripides plays are
>Medea
>Helen
>Electra
>Trojan woman
>Both Iphigenias (her sacrifice as well as the sequel about her fate in Crimea among the Tauri people)
>Bacchae

Anything else is nice to read but these core plays represent his values, ideas and style the best.

>for all of his faults, Euripides is the most tragic of the poets
-Aristotle
Anonymous No.24649493 >>24649516
>>24649368
>It is a key part of Euripides and what his main themes were as regards fate and the gods messing around with humans and starting wars and strife as well as his ideas of gender roles, usually taking female characters traditionally seen as evil like Helen or Medea and showing their side of the story so to speak.
>Today the women at the festival
>Are going to kill me for insulting them!
Jon Kolner No.24649516 >>24649693
>>24649493
I already know about Aristophanes and obviously the claims of misogyny are as commonly levied against Euripides just as much as the claims of misandry are. Let me ask- is any specific excerpt given why the women are so angry in that play? It is left to the reader to decide but I always just assumed that they were angry about Medea because she kills her children without you know, watching the entire rest of that play where Jason runs off with a harlot.

Tl;Dr- Aristophanes’ female characters are intentionally being loons themselves in pursuing Euripides because Medea only outwardly is a misogynistic play in the vaguest sense as she kills her children. You’d have to ignore the rest of the play to consider it misogyny
Anonymous No.24649526
>>24649480
Yeah that's actually a pretty fair take. I think I'd swap or add Hekabe to yours, but I overall think you're right.
Anonymous No.24649531 >>24649541
Oedipus did nothing wrong
Jon Kolner No.24649541 >>24649551
>>24649531
Well, the actual gods do absolve him in his trilogy. At the end of Colonus I believe he is taken to heaven in a cloud of smoke and the ascension place is marked as sacred to Athens.

A huge difference between Sophocles and Euripides is the gods in Sophocles are more lenient and even if fate decrees pain to them they can still be redeemed through sacrifices and worship.
Anonymous No.24649551 >>24649555 >>24649556
>>24649541
Absolve him? His sons kill each other and his daughter kills herself, I wouldn't consider that absolving
Jon Kolner No.24649555
>>24649551
His sons have agency of their own you know. They started a war that cost many lives and then only tried to get their father back when an oracle told them that his death place would be blessed. Oedipus’ actual crime doesn’t impact his sons being dicks.
Jon Kolner No.24649556 >>24649561
>>24649551
My main point is that oedipus being whisked away at the end of Colonus is a far more noble ending than anything you’d find in Euripides.
Anonymous No.24649561 >>24649566
>>24649556
Haven't read that one yet but will give it a try
Jon Kolner No.24649566
>>24649561
As a play it has two main ideas - to absolve Oedipus by saying that the gods forgave him after the intense penitence he gave at the end of his life and to mark Colonus in Athens as a divine place and Athens as a blessed city

>When the messenger turned back to look at the spot where Oedipus last stood, he says, "We couldn't see the man—he was gone—nowhere! And the king, alone, shielding his eyes, both hands spread out against his face as if some terrible wonder flashed before his eyes and he, he could not bear to look."[1]:381
Anonymous No.24649693 >>24650474
>>24649516
>is any specific excerpt given why the women are so angry in that play?
Several specifics are given. Relevant excerpts from the First Woman's oration:

>Does he not style us adulterous, lecherous, bibulous, treacherous, and garrulous? Does he not repeat that we are all vice, that we are the curse of our husbands?
>Formerly the old men married young girls, but they have been so calumniated that none think of them now, thanks to that line of his: "A woman is the tyrant of the old man who marries her." Again, it is because of Euripides that we are incessantly watched, that we are shut up behind bolts and bars, and that dogs are kept to frighten off the adulterers. Let that pass; but formerly it was we who had the care of the food, who fetched the flour from the storeroom, the oil and the wine; we can do it no more. Our husbands now carry little Spartan keys on their persons, made with three notches and full of malice and spite. Formerly it sufficed to purchase a ring marked with the same sign for three obols, to open the most securely sealed-up door; but now this pestilent Euripides has taught men to hang seals of worm-eaten wood about their necks.

Later the First Woman remarks that
>What! we ought not to punish you, who alone have dared to defend the man who has done us so much harm, whom it pleases to put all the vile women that ever were upon the stage, who only shows us Melanippes and Phaedras? But of Penelope he has never said a word, because she was reputed chaste and good
which is a specific reference to two of his plays.

But, frankly, all of this is beside the point; what matters fundamentally is that Euripidies *in his own time* was sufficiently widely understood as a woman-hater or at least insulting to women's reputation that the premise and the jokes of the play could land. In other words, the idea that a key part of the oeuvre of Euripides is to redeem or nuance women portrayed as evil is an ex post facto (and probably modern, if I had to guess) idea which the Athenians in their time had no notion of.

Spontaneously I would think that this belongs to the same post-war category of revisionism that portrays Aristophanes' own Lysistrate as a feminist play, when in fact it shits on women relentlessly.
Anonymous No.24650474
>>24649693
>>But, frankly, all of this is beside the point; what matters fundamentally is that Euripidies *in his own time* was sufficiently widely understood as a woman-hater or at least insulting to women's reputation that the premise and the jokes of the play could land. In other words, the idea that a key part of the oeuvre of Euripides is to redeem or nuance women portrayed as evil is an ex post facto (and probably modern, if I had to guess) idea which the Athenians in their time had no notion of.

You’re completely misinterpreting Aristophanes himself in posting this. I searched analysis of this play and the humor actually relies in the women seeing Medea and these other characters as wicked while not actually looking at the other aspects of the play. “Euripides is misogynist because he writes about Medea but not about Penelope” is a pretty mediocre criticism, even in his own time.

Women characters calling Euripides misogynist in a SATIRE= /= Euripides was widely seen that way OR that even if people saw him that way they were analyzing his plays correctly

Medea for instance is pretty wicked in killing her children but the play is far more multifaceted than “women bad” if you actually read it.
Anonymous No.24650508 >>24650650
>>24644858 (OP)
You weren't supposed to read plays
Anonymous No.24650561 >>24650666
>>24644891
How did they manage to make the covers so ugly
Anonymous No.24650650
>>24650508
No shit. They're still great when read though.
Anonymous No.24650666
>>24650561
Uglification is a supreme talent of our era.