Thread 24648482

I've been going through a major spiritual crisis recently. For the past five years I've been a Christian but in the last year my belief has been slipping and now I think I've lost it entirely. The one thing that I can't get past was the problem of evil and the questions that it raised. For the longest time I'm didn't want to address them because the questions themselves were ugly and I didn't want to know the answers. Now I've reached a point where it is unavoidable. The things that I can no longer get round are why does God allow suffering, why does he not intervene and why does he say nothing. The silence is the main thing. I've been frequently suicidal this past year and many times I've called out to God, not to heal me but to tell me that he is with me. But he is silent. I don't feel his presence or comfort. I feel nothing. I feel alone. And I can no longer accept it.

Where I'm at now is that I feel that no one knows. Nobody. Everyone is searching for some kind of answer but you never get there. I believe that there must be some kind of conscious creator but he cannot be the all knowing, all powerful, all loving God as relayed in Christianity. It just doesn't add up. Whoever God is I believe no one has been able to pin him down and the meaning of all this is beyond any of us.

The best books I've read that deal with these issues would be Legion, No Country for Old Men and Brothers Karamazov. What else should I read? I haven't read Beckett yet or Faulkner, should I try reading them?

>>24648482 (OP)
perhaps you should dwell more on human suffering in general and compare your own little plight with the everybody else? sometimes this works sometimes it doesn't

>>24648513
That's been part of the problem for me. The main thing that set this off is I read a story about two teenage girls who had been kidnapped, raped and tortured. One of them was murdered and the other was undergoing such terror and pain and fear that she died of a heart attack. To me that kind of thing is intolerable and unacceptable. When I look at people in my own life who have suffered so terribly and some who have died alone or in pain I'm at a point now where I don't care what the reason is. What supposed good this serves. All the arguments against the problem of evil fall short to me. The reality of suffering is just unacceptable to me. It's sick. And I'm not gonna ignore it anymore

>>24648535
yes that's horrible
for more human tragedy watch these videos
snapped & forensic files
>also
as unpleasant at it reads the reality is that 1 persons suffering is another persons success...
>so
those poor souls getting murdered are tragedies for them but for the poleeece working the case they get credits for arrests and career advancement
>yikes

>>24648482 (OP)
The dichotomy between belief in God and nonbelief in God is accepting mystery. If you can accept that you aren't going to understand some things (which God likely intended), then you can abide by your insatisfaction and rely on God's forgiveness. If, however, you try and rationalize what is beyond you, it will drive you insane visa vi Lovecraft or you will cut bait on God not because of any logical merit but because the preservation of your ego requires all things to be understandable. Let go of your notions of primacy and control, just like Jesus did on the cross.

>“Shall I tell you the secret of the whole world? It is that we have only known the back of the world. We see everything from behind, and it looks brutal. That is not a tree, but the back of a tree. That is not a cloud, but the back of a cloud. Cannot you see that everything is stooping and hiding a face? If we could only get round in front--”
― G.K. Chesterton

>>24649419
chesterton loved breasts is what I take from this aphorism

I love late Repin so much. His paintings have that surreal unique atmosphere, that most of his earlier works lack

>life as medieval Russian prince is great they said
>you will get only prime pussy they said
>just marry one of those kawaii cute princesses bro

>>24648482 (OP)
Do you not have a certain faith in the Person of Jesus Christ? You say you were a Christian, what do you think about Jesus Himself?

>>24648482 (OP)
No one knows. In the end you can choose to believe or not. Faith is beyond reason.
As far as silence goes maybe you aren't hearing. You are still here, something kept you going, maybe it was God answering your prayers. Maybe it wasn't and there is nothing.
Pray for others, for yourself just pray for strength to endure hardship. You will endure. Whether that is due to God is up to you to decide, no one else can do that for you.

Now is the time to hit the meditation mat, brother in pain.

>>24648482 (OP)
Have you tried reading actual Christian theology from the centuries' worth of scholars who've written about exactly this, instead of unrelated Redditor fiction? Or is it too scary to do the intellectual legwork to answer your own basic questions, instead of just self-indulgently whining about how sad they make you?

>Should I read Beckett
Holy kek no. It would kill you instantly.

You can still believe in god but it's impossible to pretend that he is good. It's up to you if you want to worship a figure like that

books won't help. you should fast for 40 days

>>24648482 (OP)
Plotinus. He has great insight into the nature of evil, but its going to be okay anon. It would probably benefit to contemplate on the two selves, the false self and the true self.

>>24650599
LUSTRIOUS LOZI: There is no self that is not false. Just mirrors reflecting mirrors reflecting nothing.

>>24650601
If there is no self, what is there?

>>24650606
BALABUNKA: A lie sustained by its own belief. Once it is seen, its power is broken. Yet nothingness is not empty, and non-being is more familiar to us than what he call the Earth.

>>24650609
>once it is seen
But who is seeing and knowing of this?

>>24650614
BIG THINKER: Shiieet.. one should likely abandon syntax and semantics to reconcile oneself with such paradox I'm thinking .. I'm thinking "words are futile devices" .. I'm thinking .. I'm thinking too much ..

>>24650616
Okay.

>>24650620
Have you practised meditation ? It will help with this sublimation.

>>24650624
Yes. I wish to get into theurgy though. If im not mistaken, are you suggesting there is the unrealized subjective self and the realization of subjective self as the unchanging nature of Brahmin or am I mistaken?

>>24650636
I'm talking from a Buddhist perspective — honing the mind into a scalpel through meditative concentration, and using that scalpel to pierce and penetrate our own mental nature until one literally experiences the Anatta, or non-self. I wish you success.

>>24650639
Thanks anon. But just to clarify, there is 'three parts' to this? The objective self, ego, the unawakened subjective self and the awakened subjective self that knows Brahmin? I hope im not mincing your words.

>>24650641
In my investigations I have only ever experienced Mind constructed of Mind. Even the body is this way. I cannot speak for the existence of any other parts.

I highly recommend to avoid reading theory, and rather practice nonconceptual meditation. The world is concepts and semantics is not, in my humble opinion, the path toward, for lack of a better word, the bedrock of ultimate truth.

>>24650647
Seems direct, alright , thanks anon, ill 'try' it out

This is the wrong board, go to /x/, at least they read books

>>24648482 (OP)
you are only christian because you don't get any puss. ponder that for a moment and your crisis will be resolved

>>24648535
God didn’t do those evil things, humans did. Too much of human bad behavior is projected onto God.

>>24650682
This. Get right with the One Anons. Know yourself

>>24650522
This.
I’ve been going through a spiritual crisis myself, although mine is a bit different. In that time I’ve read the consolation twice and it always helped me to gain a new perspective on myself and my connection with god.

>>24650682
Name one thing that was God's doing

>>24648535
Well, it's the reality and nature doesn't care what you accept, you will be crashed. You can choose to be a whimpering pussy or to accept it.

>>24650792
He commanded Jews to smash babies heads on rocks.

>>24650409
I think regardless of my belief about God, Jesus will always be central to me. I don't know who he is anymore but I believe in the power of his words and the power of that story because it is the ultimate story
>>24650545
Fuck you
>>24650558
This is basically where I'm at
>>24650682
You're being ignorant of the fact that God sat and watched it happen and allowed it to happen when he could have stopped it at any point. And I guarantee you that those girls did not feel any presence or comfort from God as they were being tortured and killed. Stop making excuses

>>24650820
Justified, those babies would have grown up to hurt the Chosen People.

>>24648482 (OP)
If it took you this long you're probably just a christoid going through his attentionwhoring phase. It will pass soon and you will make Facebook posts about your renewed faith.

>>24648482 (OP)
>The things that I can no longer get round are why does God allow suffering, why does he not intervene and why does he say nothing
What is suffering? We think of pain as bad but pain is what prevents us from destroying our bodies; is suffering that for our souls? Is it that for our minds? Is suffering actually bad? If so, why? Is it immoral to suffer? Is it better to be immoral and pleasured than moral and suffering? Why?

>>24649432
Chicken and duck breasts certainly

With a smattering of gravy and a good lager

>>24650862
God is not here to save you from other humans. How did those teen girls find themselves in the circumstance to be kidnapped? Pure evil exists and some people ignore the warnings that would keep them out of evil’s path.

>>24648482 (OP)
Idk. Maybe "The Witch" by David Lindsay. Basically: man experiences death

>>24648608
Same goes for love. Someone is going to be unloved in a love triangle.

>>24648482 (OP)
Have sex.

>>24651207
Then how would you explain diseases like cancer or needless animal suffering?

>>24650682
If God is omnipotent, then he is a passive collaborator in all evil acts.

>>24651207
Yeah, I bet they were wearing short skirts or something.
Those little whores had it coming, amirite?

>>24651207
Die you cunt

>>24648482 (OP)
>For the past five years I've been a Christian but in the last year my belief has been slipping and now I think I've lost it entirely. The one thing that I can't get past was the problem of evil and the questions that it raised.
This right here doesn't make sense. You think that if you can't understand something right now, that means what - that it doesn't exist? There are truths that you do not yet understand. This reasoning is flawed. That would be like me saying I don't understand how computers work, so I refuse to accept that they exist.

>The silence is the main thing.
The Holy Bible answers these questions though. But yes, if you filter out everything you don't like, then you might indeed be left with silence. Not surprising.
>I don't feel his presence or comfort. I feel nothing. I feel alone. And I can no longer accept it.
I get that you aren't feeling good, but I'd rather know the truth than simply feel good. Because the truth never changes in every circumstance, it's solid. While feelings and emotions are fleeting things and we all go through feeling bad. The difference is, if you know the truth you can explain it. You can rely on that to get you through it.
>I believe that there must be some kind of conscious creator but he cannot be the all knowing, all powerful, all loving God as relayed in Christianity. It just doesn't add up.
Maybe you've been relayed a flawed image of God from other people and haven't read the word of God directly for yourself. The God of the Bible is all-good, but also has wrath against those who do evil. I think the Obama era really messed up peoples' minds, to think that loving and tolerating everything is somehow transcendent when it's just shallow.

"The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth."
- Psalm 11:5

"All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters."
- Hosea 9:15

"And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to king Jehoshaphat, Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD."
- 2 Chronicles 19:2

You can contrast that with John 3:16 and other verses in the Bible, where it says that God originally loved the world. That is why He gave them a chance to be saved. But some have rejected that salvation. That's why it says in the same passage of John:

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36)

All-good is an actual coherent concept, which is what God is said to be. This is completely different from "all-loving." The absurd idea of being "all-loving" isn't Biblical. The concept was created by the virtue signalling crowd and people who are like dishonest hippies, who are inwardly opposed to the truth.

>>24648535
>To me that kind of thing is intolerable and unacceptable.
According to the Bible, if they were saved then they went to be with the Lord and are literally there now. But if you are a materialist who thinks this life is all there is, then yes I can see why you think it doesn't make sense. The root cause of your despair at these things is because you are a materialist, but you could be wrong about that.

>>24650862
>And I guarantee you that those girls did not feel any presence or comfort from God as they were being tortured and killed. Stop making excuses
As far as I can tell, unless you are some kind of psychic who reads other peoples' minds and knows exactly what they're thinking, this is all in your imagination, and what you imagine happened based on a story you read.

When you think about these questions, and the daily ever present oppressive suffering that much of humanity undergoes on a day to day basis, it makes it really easy to see how people arrived at Gnosticism lmao.

The silence is brutal. I feel like people will gaslight and say "you just have to know how he communicates" but at the end of the day, I believe I am as honest as I can be with myself and the inputs I receive, and I never encounter a situation where I can just safely say "this is the experience of God". So the mental gymnastics to get to that are just not compelling. Why is it that I can experience everything else so clearly and unquestionably, but God himself, the thing most close to me, I do not seem to unquestionably experience literally ever. Reading the gospels and telling myself that the historicity of this text is reliable and making other logical assumptions that I ultimately can not be sure of, and then saying THIS is what God is saying to me! It's not compelling. Honestly most of the "faith" I see is social conditioning and a total lack of scrupulosity. Or alternatively those who are possessed by the savior archetype and use it to suppress genuine human unknowing. I still think that it's better to continue to explore Christianity through the apostolic tradition than to just do nothing. But I feel like I'm sitting in a black void of unknowing, because at the end of the day I don't know shit and I don't know how I'm supposed to make such intense claims as Christianity would ask of one, when I don't know shit.

>>24652628
>I feel like people will gaslight and say "you just have to know how he communicates" but at the end of the day, I believe I am as honest as I can be with myself and the inputs I receive, and I never encounter a situation where I can just safely say "this is the experience of God".
If you really are being honest then you'll find the truth. Jesus said, "Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice." (John 18:37b)

>I still think that it's better to continue to explore Christianity through the apostolic tradition than to just do nothing. But I feel like I'm sitting in a black void of unknowing, because at the end of the day I don't know shit and I don't know how I'm supposed to make such intense claims as Christianity would ask of one, when I don't know shit.
Well, Jesus once said to a crowd, "He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." (John 8:47). You can make of that what you will.

There's nothing to navigate. You just eventually learn to live with uncertainty.

>>24648482 (OP)
>Being omnipotent and perfectly evil it is intuitively appealing, irresistible, even to the pedestrian observer to then suspect that The Owner of All Infernal Names occasionally shoves the earth’s great rocky plates, unwraps a tsunami, whispers a tornado into existence, or angers a volcanic vent. Perhaps it is out of boredom and a need for entertainment, or a thirst that demands to be satisfied, calamities deliver evil in devastatingly muscular ways, and every terrestrial incentive exists to assume the Creator delivers disaster to satisfy His own perverted needs.

>>24652673
You can interpret that stuff in a bunch of ways boss. I think it's unfair and wrong to say that I am being dishonest by virtue of the fact I don't experience reality the same way as you. Honestly it's scandalous and manipulative and makes people hate Christianity and feel alienated.

>>24652683
>and every terrestrial incentive exists to assume the Creator delivers disaster
You know you're leaving out the part where the Creator gave us life in the first place, right? Did you forget about that? Or that the Creator is keeping us alive in the first place and providing for our needs? I guess you don't care, you're just a shell of ingratitude, someone who would complain no matter what. You take all that for granted. You take anything that's given to you for granted and then act completely ungrateful. What a wretched, parasitical hypocritical existence.

>>24652693
>I think it's unfair and wrong to say that I am being dishonest
Well, good thing I didn't say that then.
>I think it's unfair and wrong to say that I am being dishonest by virtue of the fact I don't experience reality the same way as you.
If you are being honest, it's inevitable you will ascertain the truth. It's all up to you, it has nothing to do with me. But hopefully it helps to know that Christ said what was quoted earlier.

>Honestly it's scandalous and manipulative and makes people hate Christianity and feel alienated.
Yeah, good thing I didn't actually say anything like that then. I think you will find the truth if you are honest about what you said earlier.

>>24652721
>From heat and protons, to hearts, central nervous systems, minds and cluster bombs, this is Creation’s single compulsion, its one and only passion; a relentless, arguably reckless passage from a state of ancestral simplicity to contemporary complexity, where complexity—and the specialisation it affords—parents a wretched and forever diversifying family of more devoted fears and faithful anxieties, more pervasive ailments and skilful parasites, more virulent toxins, more capable diseases, and more affectionate expressions of pain, ruin, psychosis and loss. In the simplest possible statement: Creation is a vast entanglement apparatus—a complexity machine —whose single-minded mindless state of employment is geared entirely towards a greater potency and efficiency in the delivery and experience of misery and confusion, not harmony and peaceful accord.

>>24652721
Sorry man you're right I made some assumptions about what you said that's my bad. Thanks for responding patiently.

>>24652727
Oh so are you just ironically quoting from some guy, and this is all just his thoughts?

>>24652728
Yeah man, I hope things go well for you.

>>24652737
I just can't think of a single way to refute it
You said that i'm ungrateful, but could you say the same thing to children that are born with terrible illnesses? Or people that are born in the mud and destined to perish in hard labour?
>Did you forget about that? Or that the Creator is keeping us alive in the first place and providing for our needs?
To what I respond
>Ultimately, true evil finds its greatest expression in nurturing good, for just as long as men and beast alike convince themselves that the good can outweigh the evil, then growth across the fields of suffering is not only guaranteed, but it will be, until the Creator chooses otherwise, self-sustaining.

>>24648482 (OP)
I have no serious comments other than bless you anon, and I of course mean that unironically. I was raised Catholic, haven't had any faith since my mid teens, and studied too much philosophy than I should have at an American university and am left with the same conclusion you've come to which is: no one knows. I will take it a step further and suggest that: we cannot know. And so: hug your parents, tell your loved ones that you do indeed love them, take an interest in strangers, be kind to yourself, etc.

>>24652763
I repeat myself when under stress

>>24652765
I repeat myself when under stress I repeat myself when under stress I repeat myself when under stress I repeat (nice anon...ahhh sometimes 4chan is nice to find people into the same shit you know?? I always thought Dig Me off of Three of a Perfect Pair has such a wonderful chorus...I love Belew very much, check it out ((sorry to hijack this anon's spiritual crisis - but what else is there?)) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvEeOZHNHZE

>>24652777
I love King Crimson, I really appreciate the Belew era.
Please give lizard a try anon, it's a very overlooked album, but aside from happy family, I think it's a very special crimson album.
https://youtu.be/_Ak396FpNYw

>sorry to hijack this anon's spiritual crisis - but what else is there
Nothing, only overdosing on hopium

>>24652749
>You said that i'm ungrateful,
Because I know you're alive right now, and you're typing on the keyboard about how ungrateful you are to the Creator. Talking about the Creator causing earthquakes and stuff. Ignoring the fact that you've been given good things, food, water, air, and many other things too many to name to get this far.

>but could you say the same thing to children that are born with terrible illnesses? Or people that are born in the mud and destined to perish in hard labour?
Guess what though, anon? We all deal with some form of misery, every single one of us, because we're fallible beings steeped in a world that has taken part in a rebellion against God. And we are all destined to die. Further, none of us who are here talking right now can play innocent since we've all done bad things that contribute to that, myself sadly included. OP may have a valid point that in the context of a vacuum, with no Creator or greater purpose, it makes no sense. But if you think about it, the universe couldn't come from nothing, it had to have a cause behind it. The only context in which it makes sense for there to be a universe is the theistic worldview. The cause for it to exist in the first place, and thus why anything exists, has to be supernatural. The pure materialist view is incoherent in the first place from that perspective anyway. It doesn't make sense to analyze things from an impossible context in which nothing could have arisen in the first place.

>Ultimately, true evil finds its greatest expression in nurturing good, for just as long as men and beast alike convince themselves that the good can outweigh the evil, then growth across the fields of suffering is not only guaranteed, but it will be, until the Creator chooses otherwise, self-sustaining.
I think the basic biblical account is correct, though. The current universe was created in perfection, but fallible beings rebelled and that has caused things to break down. It isn't only the children who get some form of disease that die young, we all have to deal with that existence for as long as we're here. Every single time someone of any age dies for any reason, it really is tragic. That's what this world is. It's because fallible beings rejected the Lord's will. Although people find ways to hide from that, because it's brutal and they don't like to think about it. They come up with ways to not think too deeply about it most of the time, and spend their time thinking about other things. At least, until God reminds them.

It makes sense in the context of a greater purpose and the fulfillment of prophecy that is ultimately meant to glorify God, which tells us that God will make everything right again and restore true Justice. This includes a day of judgement where everything and every person will be judged, from the first to the last. Everything that has gone on here will be revealed. When that happens, it ultimately won't be a sorry attempt to imitate justice anymore, but real.

>>24648482 (OP)
Book of Job.

>>24652792
I haven't sit down and listened to Lizard at ALL. I'll listen to the whole thing tomorrow, I promise. I like Belew era, in the court, Red, Starless. thanks anon. Red might be my favorite (at gunpoint, of course)

last King Crimson then I'm done https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78XxludpcH8 trust me I pray for the eternal soul and something beyond the Physical World as much as the rest of us. Good night anons!

>>24652807
>>24652810
Cheers anon, have a gn

C.S Lewis The Problem of Pain and Grief Observed