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Thread 24652421

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ARTHUR WIGGER No.24652421 >>24652524 >>24652678 >>24652729 >>24652740 >>24653028 >>24653666 >>24654965 >>24655375 >>24655573 >>24655901
What are Some good book recs for an orthobro Catechumen?
Anonymous No.24652524 >>24653616 >>24655600
>>24652421 (OP)
>What are Some good book recs for an orthobro Catechumen?

The Orthodox Church by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware: This is often considered the quintessential starting point. It's a comprehensive and accessible introduction to the history, doctrine, and practices of the Orthodox Church.
Anonymous No.24652678 >>24653007 >>24653616 >>24653666
>>24652421 (OP)
I would start with the epistles of Paul and then compare what youโ€™ve learned from the word of God to what you read in the words from the fallible minds of the Orthodox Church fathers. I assure you you will find in those church fathers damnable ideas that offend God
Anonymous No.24652729 >>24653622 >>24654901
>>24652421 (OP)

How hails the ortho sphere? is the orthobro still happening? Sexpesst Roosh V was like there big name twitter guy like 5 years ago and then I think everyone just converted to roman catholic instead.
Anonymous No.24652740 >>24653616
>>24652421 (OP)
https://www.orthodoxethos.com/reading-list
Anonymous No.24652742
Contra Errores Graecorum by Thomas Aquinas is a good one.
Anonymous No.24652784 >>24653616 >>24654901
The big book of ask your priest
Anonymous No.24653007
>>24652678
>I assure you you will find in those church fathers damnable ideas that offend God
Such as...?
Anonymous No.24653028 >>24653627
>>24652421 (OP)
ARTHUR WIGGER No.24653616
>>24652524
>>24652678
>>24652740
>>24652784
thanks bruddas
ARTHUR WIGGER No.24653622
>>24652729
I don't really pay attention to the online Orthodox sphere other than youtube videos and instagram memes.
ARTHUR WIGGER No.24653627
>>24653028
.....whoa....the snake in the garden was like.....good man....
Anonymous No.24653666
>>24652421 (OP)
Read the Church Fathers. Origen, Maximus the Confessor, Gregory of Nyssa, & Symeon the New Theologian are among my faves
>>24652678
Paul's not the word of God, you dunce. The only word of God in the Bible is Jesus.
Anonymous No.24654901 >>24654932
>>24652784
this
>>24652729
I don't know how it is in america but in western europe I see no such phenomenon
My church has had a few new catechumens over the last few years, but the overwhelming majority young people in search of Christ become roman catholic.
Anonymous No.24654932 >>24655375 >>24656326
>>24654901
In America circa 2016 there was a debate between young zoomers who wanted to reject the hedonism of their peers and it looks like catholics and trad catholics won out over the Orthodox.
Anonymous No.24654965
>>24652421 (OP)
Anonymous No.24655375 >>24655401 >>24656876
>>24654932
The right wing is shifting towards neopagan vitalism. This is the faction that will eventually take power in western countries.
>>24652421 (OP)
On the Cosmic Mystery of Jesus Christ by St Maximos the Confessor. Probably one of the most lucid and profound Fathers.
Anonymous No.24655401
>>24655375
>This is the faction that will eventually take power in western countries.
To add, there will be a persecution of Christians as a result. I'll qualify this by saying this is my own conjecture.
Anonymous No.24655573 >>24655616 >>24655701 >>24656326 >>24656795
>>24652421 (OP)
>going to the church
if you are orthodox you must acknowledge that reading the bible and other texts is pointless for a mere mortal since you will most likely misinterpret it
just talk with your local priest he ll probably give you a book from the church
also god isn t real and eternal oblivion awaits us all
orthodox church is just as boring as your average american baptist church, its not some transcendental awakening or anything
if you are searching for mysticism you are falling into some kind of heresy
but it s all fake and gay anyway so doesn t matter
orthodox church is basically: "sorry we don't know", "does the spirit proceed from the son as well?", "sorry we don't know , we haven'thad a council for 1000 years so we dont know alot"
study math if you want something truly profound
Anonymous No.24655600 >>24655694
>>24652524
>kallistos ware
LOL!
Anonymous No.24655616
>>24655573
embarassing
Anonymous No.24655694 >>24655732 >>24655805 >>24656857
>>24655600
Ah yes, the long history of Church tradition on birth control that didn't exist until the 20th century...
Anonymous No.24655701
>>24655573
t. Lou C. Fer
Anonymous No.24655732 >>24656326
>>24655694
>what is onanism
it's from the old testament brother
Anonymous No.24655805
>>24655694
Anything that frustrates the possibility of conception falls into this ambit.
Anonymous No.24655901
>>24652421 (OP)
Why you asking anons?
Ask your Spiritual Father.
Anonymous No.24656326 >>24656875 >>24657011
>>24654932
I see. It's good either way, but I'd be interested in knowing to what extent Christianity in general is currently growing in the world.
>>24655573
You've managed to make a post where absolutely every single statement is wrong, good job
>>24655732
Not him but iirc onanism is a sin because it is a transgression against the flesh's purpose, not (primarily) because it may harm a marriage
ARTHUR WIGGER No.24656795
>>24655573
math won't save your soul, nigga
Anonymous No.24656857 >>24657011
>>24655694
There were birth control herbs in ancient Rome
Anonymous No.24656875 >>24657011 >>24657215
>>24656326
the "flesh's purpose" is the two ends of procreation and the unity of the couple in marriage. The Pope talks about this clearly in humane vitae at the same time the Orthodox started saying contraception is okay (anyone who says this is just because they got paid off by the rockefellers)
Anonymous No.24656876
>>24655375
>This is the faction that will eventually take power in western countries.
Yes, in your dreams sure
Anonymous No.24657011 >>24657215
>>24656326
>Not him but iirc onanism is a sin because it is a transgression against the flesh's purpose, not (primarily) because it may harm a marriage

- One poster said sarcastically that the "long history of Church tradition... didn't exist until the 20th century," implying that this traditional teaching on birth control wasn't long at all, and therefore had no more weight than the protean teaching of Kallistos Ware.
- Another poster replied, pointing out the story of Onan exists in the Old Testament, and that, therefore, the principles of the teaching against birth control are much older than the 20th century.
- You replied pointing out that the sin of Onan aligns with the reasoning behind the traditional teaching against birth control, rather than the pro-birth control argument put forth by Kallistos Ware.
- Another poster (>>24656857) pointed out that the concept of oral contraceptives (or contraceptive drugs) dates back to the biblical era, the concept is not novel or modern.
- Another poster (>>24656875) pointed out that the pope clearly condemned artificial contraception in the encyclical Humae Vitae, which should settle the question because all Orthodox are subject to the authority of the Roman Pontiff.
Anonymous No.24657215 >>24657224 >>24657229
>>24657011
Thank you gpt, very insightful
>>24656875
The flesh's purpose is sanctification
>the Orthodox started saying contraception is okay
We don't have a central overarching authority that determines dogma like you guys do, there is no Orthodox magisterium that codifies every single theological or pastoral issue. This kind of thing is handled by bishops (at most) and preferably by priests themselves following pastoral oikonomia
I earnestly recommend the book "Thinking Orthodox" by Constantinou, the mentality and approach towards tradition differs a lot between RC and EO and the book serves as a great and clear explanation as to how this manifests. Of course it's biased in "favor" of Orthodoxy but I didn't find the tone inflammatory or dismissive so you might like it as a Catholic
Anonymous No.24657224 >>24657236
>>24657215
Yes I am aware.
Certain Orthodox Churches rebaptize converts and others don't. Meaning no matter what either unbaptized people receive communion OR people be being sacrilegiously re-baptized
As well as some Orthodox bishops allowing abortions and other things along those lines.

The "thinking orthodox" is just understanding these are principally political institutions that rejected rome for political reasons and did their best to justify it afterwards.

A great example of this is confession, Orthodox priests were made to tell the state the contents of confession, violating the seal, so people just stopped going. They then invented a theology of this where it's fine and confession doesn't actually matter.

It's literally just a political tool and the theology is all a post-hoc justification of it. That's why you can have obviously conflicting and contradictory viewpoints and no one cares, because the point is political not theological. (and of course they do some vauge oikonomia handwaving to justify it, i'm sure all those aborted babies are cool with the bishop and is oikonomia).
Anonymous No.24657229
>>24657215
Also the contraception stuff clarifies the approach towards tradition, "give tradition lipservice until it becomes politically uncomfortable (billionaires and cia pay offs)" then just abandon tradition, say something about oikonomia, then say "today a less strict view is coming to prevail" and act like all the traditional thinkers had 0 justification for what they thought.
Anonymous No.24657236 >>24657271
>>24657224
Again you're operating from the point of view of roman tradition and the things you say are not fully accurate or distort the truth. Any bishop publicly allowing abortion would be excommunicated.
>rejected rome for political reasons
This is not at all accurate. And what you said about confession is downright false and would be grounds for excommunication as well
This is most likely not going to be a productive exchange though so I'd rather not get into a fruitless debate from which nothing good will come. May our churches be reunited someday. God bless you brother.
Anonymous No.24657271 >>24657371
>>24657236
They were not excommunicated. It was the Cypriot Orthodox Church in response to mass rapes by turks in cyprus. It was not really even talked about as far as I can tell, no one cares and no one was excommunicated. What of abortifacient contraceptives, are those a concern? IVF? Is any of this even talked about?
>the confession stuff
It is 100% accurate and historical, could you explain the position on confession and when you are supposed to do it? What's the purpose of going? It's a sacrament this doctrine should be pretty clear and important there is little in the Church of more importance than the sacraments.
Marriage, Ordination, Baptism, the Eucharist, Chrismation, Extreme Unction, and Confession?
These are all super important, there must be some clarity on what the purpose is, why anyone does it, when, etc. right?

Do you know what is interesting about priests being married and having kids? If you are in a tyrannical state they can threaten your children. So say you are told something in confession and the state asks for it, now they can threaten your kids and wife if you refuse to tell them. It's a great way to make priests much easier to manipulate!

As I said it's extremely obvious historically these national Churches have all been subverted for the politician ends of the nation, it's not even seriously disputable. That's why they've literally never evangelized anywhere on earth, they are totally nationally and politically focused.

But hey who cares about total state domination, abortion and murder of children, total disregard of the sacraments with manifest contradictions, you have all that really matters: oikonomia!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_Holy_Synod#Peter's_attitude_towards_the_Church
The Russian Orthodox Church literally made it required for seditious confessions to be reported at a synod and this was the case for several centuries lol
Anonymous No.24657371 >>24657415
>>24657271
Claiming Orthodoxy is just a political tool doesnโ€™t really hold up when you look at the history and theology. Governments have interfered with the Church just as they did in Catholic Europe with state churches and political control, but that was outside pressure, not the faith itself.
The sacraments are ancient and consistent: baptism, confession, marriage, ordination, the Eucharist, all rooted in Scripture and the early Fathers. Their importance has never been downplayed in the Church. Differences in practice like how converts are received or how often confession is expected come from the balance between akribeia and oikonomia and not from indifference.
On abortion and contraception, the teaching has been clear from the beginning even if some modern bishops have failed in practice, and again the same can be said of Catholic bishops in certain eras.
Married clergy go back to the apostles and werenโ€™t created to make priests easier to manipulate.
And the claim that Orthodoxy never evangelized is flatly wrong, its missions shaped the Slavic world, Rusโ€™, the Caucasus, the Balkans, and later Alaska, Japan and Africa. The Church's theology and sacramental life has stayed intact throughout centuries despite the political domination it's had to endure; just like Catholicism, basically.

I said I wouldn't get into a fruitless debate but it's important to clear up the fact that youโ€™re essentially criticizing the Church for isolated incidents, many of which have parallels in Catholic history, while nitpicking details to retroactively justify a preconceived opinion

Again to anyone reading this exchange I strongly recommend
>Thinking Orthodox by Constantinou
to actually understand Orthodoxy instead of basing yourself on misconceptions and internet memes
Anonymous No.24657415 >>24657428
>>24657371
>totally ignoring the fundamental contradiction in baptism
>totally ignoring the russian orthodox Church demanding priests break the seal of confession for centuries (shaping the modern view of confession)
>totally ignoring he said any bishop who permits abortion would be condemned, and just ignores the example showing that doesn't happen
>totally ignoring that CURRENTLY abortion is currently permitted (IVF, abortifacient contraceptives are abortions) widely
>evangelization just consisted of going to places your political borders expand to (because the church is an extension of the political body) the principle ways eastern orthodox have evangelized is being refugees and taking refuge in other countries, or the country taking over another one and orthodox spreading there. Alaska was russia when the orthodox went there, going to a different part of your country just makes the point for them evangelization is just political.

I also asked for your specific practice of confession, I want you to state it explicitly not how the church in general but YOU (because EO's have such a vague pointless view of confession you just stating it will make my point, for being one of the great sacraments it's basically an after-thought (because of the state compromise undermining it))

Things like invalid baptisms and people just not being baptized are not small things you can just handwave, as I said either you are doing sacrilege or unbaptized people are taking communion.
The orthodox can't clarify these things because they don't have an actual authority like the Pope, and they are all bickering children making councils fails because of some kings bones from 800 years ago and other stupid political disputes.
Oikonomia is a post-hoc justification of how they justify the deep fundamental contradictions with no way of actually justifying them. Let's not get into the communion chains where half the churches are in communion with one but have broken communion with the other in 10 different contradictory ways so there basically isn't even an intelligible way to talk about what the "eastern orthodox church" even is.

The entire thing is just a farce.
Anonymous No.24657428 >>24657429
>>24657415
Everything you said is either completely wrong, a purposefully disingenuous misrepresentation of the truth, or just inflammatory. You don't have the slightest interest in finding the truth but instead seek to confirm your own biases by slandering the Church.
This is not worth responding to. I invite you again to read the book I mentioned in order to understand what Orthodoxy is before insulting and lying on the internet
Anonymous No.24657429 >>24657436
>>24657428
Let's say my points aren't wrong but it's just oikonomia, you can have different views it's okay : )
Anonymous No.24657436
>>24657429
Not knowing what oikonomia means is yet another reason why you should read the book
Anonymous No.24658237 >>24659526
Anonymous No.24659526
>>24658237
he probably doesn't want to read about wrong theology though
the bishop of rome should come back to the true church