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Thread 24655016

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Anonymous No.24655016 >>24655028 >>24655296 >>24655303 >>24655895 >>24655964 >>24656355 >>24656439 >>24656598 >>24657086 >>24658549 >>24659805 >>24659826 >>24660312
>My entire political outlook no longer consists in anything but the bloodiest hatred of our entire civilization, contempt for all that it has produced, and a passionate longing for nature. But that is not something anyone will understand who felt so enchanted by the industrial exhibition. Well, you've got your exhibition, an exhibition in the pillory, with all your industrious workers! That I ever set store by the workers as workers is something I must now atone for grievously: with the noises they make, these workers are the wretchedest slaves, whom anyone can control nowadays if he promises them plenty of 'work'. A slave mentality has taken root in everything with us: that we are human is something nobody knows in the whole of France except perhaps Proudhon at most - and even he is only dimly aware of the fact! - in the whole of Europe, however, I prefer dogs to these doglike men. However, I do not despair of the future; only the most terrible and destructive revolution can make our civilized beasts "human" again.
Anonymous No.24655028 >>24658408
>>24655016 (OP)
Based
Anonymous No.24655296 >>24656184 >>24656623
>>24655016 (OP)
So based. Wagner should be studied instead of Marx.
Anonymous No.24655303 >>24655729
>>24655016 (OP)
Remind me why people like Nietzsche so much when Wagner exists?
Anonymous No.24655729 >>24659866
>>24655303
Nietzsche offers little sugar plums of insight (W. Lewis) and managed to become absorbed into the spirit of what we might call self-help Americanism (very ironic given his aristocratic stance). His madness refutes his interesting attempt to overcome Wagner and Schopenhauer.
Anonymous No.24655895 >>24655947 >>24656598
>>24655016 (OP)
I don't want civilization or nature.
What I desperately want is for the whole of Earth to be rendered into a cold, sterile, airless, waterless ball of rock.
A place where there is no life, and life could never be.
Anonymous No.24655947
>>24655895
indeed the most conservative thing imaginable would be to extinguish all life so that the universe may be at peace
Anonymous No.24655964
>>24655016 (OP)
Wagner perceived that the drama of The Ring, whose characters inhabit the landscape of the hunter-gatherer, required him to reinvent such a natural world. The forests and rivers, the fires and storms, the dragons and mermaids, the voices of the woods and the birds—all these are recreated in The Ring, with a freshness and poetry that owe everything to music, but with a directness that recalls the rich tradition of German children’s literature. (All children have been brought up on this literature, even those who have never read a word of it, since it is the literature that created childhood. Christmas is only one of its many by-products.) The god-haunted, dream-enchanted landscape of The Ring is the first thing that modern producers hasten to air-brush from the story. For it creates the context for religious awe.

Looked at in that way, we can see Wagner’s Ring cycle as a bridge between two far more humble productions: Grimm’s fairy tales and the Lord of the Rings. Grimm influenced Wagner and Wagner made Tolkien possible. Indeed the emotions that are stirred by the cinematic realization of Tolkien’s rambling story are a faint echo of what would be felt, were The Ring to be performed as Wagner intended, with every single stage direction realistically obeyed. This would be the film to end all films, the Gotterdammerung of our modern era, in which Wagner’s moral would be apparent even to the unmusical. And almost certainly it would be banned.

Tolkien’s passion for the medieval world arose, like Wagner’s, from a lifelong religious quest. Unlike Wagner, however, Tolkien did not have the ability to remake the religious experience through art. He remained a ‘good sad Christian at heart’, but with a talent for pagan fairy tales. His novel has smatterings of the great conflict between good and evil, and an abundance of mysteries. But it does not re-create the experience that Wagner has always in mind in the tetralogy, which is the experience of the sacred. The Ring is not merely the greatest invocation of primeval Nature and the hunter-gatherer world in modern art. It also abounds in moments of genuine religious awe: Brunnhilde’s announcement to Siegmund of his impending death; Sieglinde’s blessing of Brunnhilde; Wotan’s farewell; Siegfried’s first encounter with Brunnhilde—and so on. Virtually all the turning points of the drama are conceived in sacramental terms; they are occasions of awe, piety and transition, in which a victim is offered and a promise of redemption received.
Anonymous No.24655975 >>24655998 >>24656002 >>24656082 >>24659832 >>24659919
>liberal artist disdains people who work for a living

Many such cases.
Anonymous No.24655998 >>24656002 >>24656082
>>24655975
This. That he can say that with zero self-awareness is astonishing.
Anonymous No.24656002 >>24656272
>>24655975
>>24655998
He's talking about 19th century factory workers here, not farmers. The point went over your heads.
Anonymous No.24656082
>>24655975
>>24655998
>t. Retards.
Anonymous No.24656184
>>24655296
The Ring work in the region of the intersection of Freud and Marx but handles its material with much greater clarity
Anonymous No.24656272 >>24656327
>>24656002
That people today will earnestly claim work as a virtue in itself instead of an evil to be mitigated and eventually eliminated makes his point at least as relevant as ever.
Anonymous No.24656327
>>24656272
Things are far more alienating now, so in the West there is legitimate nostalgia for the industrial world. What the cynical anons, who are likely engaging in contrarianism for sport, do not understand is this is a matter of social organization and submission, not the venerable ethic of “providing for your family” or whatever. The nature of the situation in the West (indeed the destiny of the West) is inarguable now, where most jobs do not really produce real value, and it is largely a matter of fighting for spoils in an environment of artificial scarcity. The endless productivity is literally pointless, and regardless of the flourishing of NEETs or whatever, the Western masses remain stupefied like domestic animals. What is clear is things cannot go on like this forever.
Anonymous No.24656341
And this isn’t even to mention the man and woman problem which is is unprecedented but illuminated fully in the Ring; simply in the intuition of the modality or logic of productive capitalism intruding on and very easily corrupting the naivety of sexuality.
Anonymous No.24656355 >>24656381
>>24655016 (OP)
>WHITE POWERRRRRRR
Anonymous No.24656381 >>24656421
>>24656355
Wagner actually took the side of the Negro in the 19th century, was shocked to read Carlyle (who he always liked) defending slavery, even blaming this on Jewishness:
>Then R. expresses his surprise over his taking sides against the Negroes, saying how rarely a person is completely free; he feels that deism, the Jewish kind which inhibited even Goethe, also oppressed Carlyle’s spirit.
Additionally:
>Also about the attitude of the superior to the inferior races, the Negroes, for instance. R. says the greatest triumph for the intellectually superior person is to win the love and devotion of those beneath him, whereupon the Count says such love can be found among Negroes, but not mulattoes.
>Dr. Jenkins tells us some very interesting things about the Negroes, whom R. can hardly visualize taking part in public affairs; he feels that what has made them significant is their touching submission to a cruel fate. Dr. Jenkins also talks about the admirable qualities of the Germans in America, and R. says, “Yes, the emigrants—those are the good ones, just as the earlier wanderers were the heroes; the ones who stayed at home were the Philistines."
Though they suffer from severe social pathologies, today in America the Negroes may in many ways be said to be more purely human than the vulgar white population.
Anonymous No.24656421 >>24656434 >>24656477
>>24656381
Wagner said once that to be a musician required at least some black blood. The historical social pathology of the black American should be understood as resultant of their condition, the human instantly displaced from one's nature being put into industrial hell on its lowest rung. Europeans assimilated and degenerated to this condition over centuries, but Blacks were one second living perfectly according to god's design the next under the yoke of depraved sadists with their beings used entirely as instrument. This whiplash is not something that humans can easily adjust to, it took generations of oppressions, nihilism, and self destruction for them to finally claw out some place in the professional class hierarchy by the 2010s (at this point I think its quite obvious that what we understand as black social pathology is largely idiosyncratic against our nations geography and manifests solely in areas like Detroit or St Louis devoid of said hierarchy, there is a black population but no supposed social pathology amongst them in my city, just the same listlessness as the alienated white strivers). Nevertheless or perhaps because of this miserable condition, Blacks were the vanguards of a national American culture, Duke Ellingtons creation of pop music is the only thing that continued the classical tradition. Only the English in Europe with their engagement with America produced any music outside of America in the West, every other country let their tradition die without so much as a murmur.
Anonymous No.24656434 >>24656492
>>24656421
>Wagner said once that to be a musician required at least some black blood.
Gobineau said that, not Wagner, although Wagner did laugh about the idea with Cosima.
Anonymous No.24656439
>>24655016 (OP)
Jeez, sounds like someone can't wait till it's the weekend again.
Anonymous No.24656477 >>24656507
>>24656421
Interesting perspective. The black usage of drums (which is the major innovation, lending Western music for the first time a violent quality) may be said to in some sense calibrate industrialization factors.
Anonymous No.24656492 >>24656648
>>24656434
I remember reading an account of him finding the idea humorous but on some esoteric level true. Between these strands of evidence--that throughout his life he had flashes of intense hypochondriac like fear of having jewish blood, which I doubt ever left him given the way he talks about Jewish friends and acquaintances of his essays as a proxy for self hatred of his flaws (same with his essays on Bakunin), his assertion that all humans are "irredeemably mixed" (but that christ and the saints prove redemption from anything), and it was the Jew who was first mixed of these present races (he viewed them as mulatto)--these threads lead me to believe this idea makes perfect sense from his racial viewpoint. I believe now I do misremember his furtherance of the quote in letters. Is there a quote you have of his in correspondence with Cosima that discounts this?
Anonymous No.24656507
>>24656477
It was also Wagner's orchestration, drawing from the spirit of the German forests, that first sought to drown out the urban noise, other Late Romantics continued to develop this but were generally locked to the continent. Immediately succeeding, the next great breakthrough in the war against industry was the modernists, who going to places like Indonesia, Japan, Africa, and Arabia brought unprecedented chaos to Western Music. This trend culminated in Duke Ellington, studying said modernists (Delius*, Debussy, and Ravel being his favorite), and furthering their insights by amending his own native chord progressions and rhythms into pop music. This is why Stravinsky for example, after having contributing Russian's pagan dance to Western music, travelled to America to study under American Black musicians.

*Delius himself credits his major influence and inspiration with the music of black workers on his families plantation in Florida
Anonymous No.24656598 >>24660315
>>24655895
You should probably just commit suicide instead of bothering others.
>>24655016 (OP)
meh
Anonymous No.24656623
>>24655296
Wagner is simply too high-level for people to understand. to read Wagner one must at least be a 160IQ expert on western history, philosophy, science, and art.
Anonymous No.24656648
>>24656492
>throughout his life he had flashes of intense hypochondriac like fear of having jewish blood
I'm not sure if this is true. I've seen it often theorised by academics, but never any actual proof for it.

>the way he talks about Jewish friends and acquaintances of his essays as a proxy for self hatred of his flaws (same with his essays on Bakunin)
Quite possibly, but then that doesn't discount the objectivity in the analysis of his friends either. Btw, what essays on Bakunin are you talking about? As far as I know Wagner never mentioned Bakunin in his essays and for the most part he had a good opinion of him.

>Is there a quote you have of his in correspondence with Cosima that discounts this?
Not much, just Wagner jokingly saying 'that must be the black blood in me, as Gobineau has it' and then Cosima records them laughing.
Anonymous No.24657086 >>24657129
>>24655016 (OP)
>My entire political outlook no longer consists in anything but the bloodiest hatred of our entire civilization, contempt for all that it has produced, and a passionate longing for nature. But that is not something anyone will understand who felt so enchanted by the industrial exhibition. Well, you've got your exhibition, an exhibition in the pillory, with all your industrious workers! That I ever set store by the workers as workers is something I must now atone for grievously: with the noises they make, these workers are the wretchedest slaves, whom anyone can control nowadays if he promises them plenty of 'work'. A slave mentality has taken root in everything with us: that we are human is something nobody knows in the whole of France except perhaps Proudhon at most - and even he is only dimly aware of the fact! - in the whole of Europe, however, I prefer dogs to these doglike men. However, I do not despair of the future; only the most terrible and destructive revolution can make our civilized beasts "human" again.
add some boethius and it's done
Anonymous No.24657129
>>24657086
Boethius seems weird to me here…
Anonymous No.24658408
>>24655028
Unbelievably based
Anonymous No.24658549
>>24655016 (OP)
>nature is le beautiful!
>https://www.youtube.com/shorts/TmfVDYucGkY
Anonymous No.24659805
>>24655016 (OP)
>However, I do not despair of the future; only the most terrible and destructive revolution can make our civilized beasts "human" again.
I do wonder if such a revolution will come about. For all I admire Wagner, and despite his own protestations, he did lean a bit to the Utopian. When shall his prophesied Artist of the Future appear, in this an age of such absolute artificiality?
Anonymous No.24659826
>>24655016 (OP)
>fuck work and workers!
>just live on loans from Jews! it's so easy
>if said Jews start fucking you in the ass, just take it in the ass from a rich monarch and he'll pay off everything
>it's fucking foolproof!
ok Richard
Anonymous No.24659832 >>24660343
>>24655975
>liberal artist disdains people who work for a living
The thing with Wagner is that he was rabidly pro-labor socialist-anarchist whenever he was poor as a rat, and instantly turned just as rabidly aristocratically conservative whenever he got pockets full of (someone else's) cash.
Anonymous No.24659866
>>24655729
He had a tumour behind his right eye.
Anonymous No.24659919
>>24655975
begone, hypocrite. It is not my purpose in life to keep the lights on for normgroids like you who mostly do bullshit jobs anyway.
Anonymous No.24660312
>>24655016 (OP)
Source?
Anonymous No.24660315
>>24656598
Care to elaborate, or are you just a complete fucking pseud?
Anonymous No.24660343
>>24659832
Only insincere art can flow from such a man