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Thread 24657649

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Anonymous No.24657649 >>24657708 >>24657725 >>24657758 >>24657859 >>24658106 >>24658216 >>24658233 >>24658240 >>24658395 >>24658449 >>24658455 >>24660653 >>24661324 >>24663427 >>24665401 >>24666258 >>24666360 >>24666504 >>24666606 >>24666659 >>24667784 >>24668722 >>24670088 >>24670439 >>24670465 >>24670472 >>24670487 >>24670511
Every prediction Marx made has come true, except for the revolution.
Why is this? Is the proletariat just fucking retarded? Or do we have to wait 2 more weeks?
Or perhaps, Marx was wrong, and class consciousness does not naturally permeate as a result of the material conditions of the working class.
What do you think, anon?
Anonymous No.24657658
The workers are FOOLS who need a strong binding MYTH and nationalistic FERVOUR and a brutal charismatic LEADER to motivate them.

TRADE UNION WAR BANDS
GOOSE STEP
CARNALITY
BOY LEGIONS
MÄNNERBUND
Anonymous No.24657661 >>24661364 >>24670480
everyone is convinced consumerism is more important than dying for a cause.
Anonymous No.24657708
>>24657649 (OP)
>Is the proletariat just fucking retarded?
yes
Anonymous No.24657725 >>24658107 >>24666629
>>24657649 (OP)
I don't really see how Marx's predictions have panned out. He thought the revolution would happen in the most developed capitalist states. The opposite occurred. Socialist revolutions happened multiple times in multiple places, and always in underdeveloped predominantly agrarian feudal or semi-feudal states, where Marx said it was impossible, and never in the advanced capitalist societies like Germany, France, or England, where Marx said it was inevitable. So-called "historical materialism" is just not a plausible theory of history.
Anonymous No.24657736 >>24657769 >>24658157
Marx was correct in that capitalism will be succeeded by barbarism

Unfortunately he spent the rest of his life taking about the imaginary/rhetorical alternative. In reality roving bands of Sunni jihadists in a world rendered increasingly uninhabitable by climate change and pollution is our future.
Anonymous No.24657744
We can conclude the proletariat is indeed retarded from the current state of the greatest country on earth i.e. the US of A.
Anonymous No.24657758 >>24657797
>>24657649 (OP)
He didn't expect the stopgaps, the half-measures, the compromises capitalism would come up with and that they would work. Welfare state, healthcare, pensions, social security, food stamps, minimum wage, all this and more, are enough to hold the working-class at bay.
Anonymous No.24657769 >>24657773 >>24657775 >>24658477 >>24666503
>>24657736
>muh climate change
Climate has always fluctuated. Picrel is from a 1970 French TV interview in which a scientist explains that things will get warmer before they get colder. If you haven't noticed before this summer, they started talking about how the Sahara desert will be like the North Pole. They're already preparing to switch things up so pay attention
Anonymous No.24657773 >>24657812
>>24657769
Anon, this isn't /pol/ or /x/, we know climate change is real here.
Anonymous No.24657775 >>24657812
>>24657769
Another dumb fuck
Anonymous No.24657797 >>24657888
>>24657758
I haven't actually read Marx, but this seems quite weird to me. He really did not account for more reforms getting implemented? I mean, he saw them happening during his own lifetime and most workers usually supported more feasible things like shorter working hours rather than a full-on revolution.
Anonymous No.24657812
>>24657773
>>24657775
Oops sorry sisters forgot this was /litgbt/
Anonymous No.24657859
>>24657649 (OP)
>Or perhaps, Marx was wrong
Oh, you think?
Anonymous No.24657888 >>24658101
>>24657797
He was actively hostile to the early democratic socialist (which were his former students btw). Calling them ’ bourgeois socialists’. This continues to this day, Marxists treating democratic socialism like it’s heresy.

Marx was a very closed minded man who was unable to accept or even consider any position that wasn’t his own. His modern day followers are much the same.
Anonymous No.24657890
the proletariat is acephalous qua proletariat, it needs leaders, but you can just buy those and extinguish revolutionary energy before it's even an embryo because the leaders are the product of the proletariat AND the values of the proles ultimately in a communistic system aren't different from those of the capitalists, Mammon
Anonymous No.24658101 >>24666805 >>24666907
>>24657888
Communists depise the petit-bourgeois even more than the rich. Remember Stalin's treatment of the kulaks.
They can't stand the sight of somebody trying to better themselves on their own initiative.
Anonymous No.24658106
>>24657649 (OP)
Because billionaires and corporations acting all corporationy.
Anonymous No.24658107 >>24658470
>>24657725
>where Marx said it was impossible, and never in the advanced capitalist societies like Germany, France, or England, where Marx said it was inevitable.

Well, communism did live in Germany for forty years. It was just a horrible and backwards system which drove all the high earning companies west and bankrupted the state turning it into a miniature DPRK within Europe.
Anonymous No.24658112
oh god i'm gonna.... I'm gonna..... COONSOOOMMM AAAAAAAAAHHH I'M CONSOOMING I'M CHECKING TIKTOK AND INSTAGRAM TO FORGET ABOUT THE SORRY STATE OF THE WORLD AHHHHHH!!!
Anonymous No.24658157 >>24661476
>>24657736
>capitalism will be succeeded by barbarism
And when and how will that happen, exactly?
Anonymous No.24658180 >>24663454
the latter. class consciouisness if fucking retarded. i have nothing in common wiht 90% of working class people. i genuinely have more in common with my rich rentseeking boss

class in not a viable way to build a shared identity
Anonymous No.24658187
are you sure every one? this guy has like an eighteen volume collected edition and they're not small volumes. number might be higher. i know you haven't read all of them, no-one here has
Anonymous No.24658216 >>24658279 >>24666293
>>24657649 (OP)
No one can say for sure. The time for revolutions came and went for most countries. Pessimism is easier, apathy is frankly the easiest. Utopia requires agreement and those don't exist right? The system is predicated upon a crisis cycle at this point. Think implosion. Until then you get to explore the depths of pessimism and apathy and engage in idle speculation about the end of society. We can say it ended already if you want. You keep going, the simulation will turn into a simulacrum eventually for you, or you'll die first. You can also enjoy the various revolutions that never happened.
Anonymous No.24658233
>>24657649 (OP)
Marx was correct about many of the trends and pitfalls of capitalism, but unfortunately his proposed alternative is so blatantly retarded that you can't criticize capitalism without people writing you off as one of the retards who believes in said alternative.
Anonymous No.24658240
>>24657649 (OP)
marx misunderstood subjects
Anonymous No.24658279 >>24658317
>>24658216
>The time for revolutions came and went for most countries.
Mostly because they saw the consequences of revolution in other countries.
Anonymous No.24658296 >>24658500 >>24666360
It is simply impossible to eliminate some form of hierarchy in wealth and power. Monarchy and aristocracy will always be with us, are with us as we speak. Maybe not in the names and trappings they used to have, but they're still there.

I've been making this point for basically a decade now and it feels more true than ever. Look around you. It's 2025. You sit at the summit of, basically, 400 years of revolution. If we presume that the Age of Revolution as we know it begins with the English Civil War, it's basically been four centuries of upheaval. Wars, economic calamities, overthrows, tyrannies, dictatorships, experiments, the questioning and dismantling of everyting that was once solid in the West.

And what has been the result? We are, once again, in a system where a small amount of people control most of the wealth and most of the power. Utopia didn't come. Classless society didn't come. Paradise on Earth didn't come.

And like I said, it's been FOUR HUNDRED YEARS. How much more time do we need to realize the futility of all this? You've gotta know when to cut bait on a project. Monarchy and aristocracy, in some form, are inevitable. Vast concentrations of wealth and power, in some form, are inevitable. You're not going to be changing an arrangement that is clearly so fundamental to the human race, and at this point it's foolish to try. The best we're ever going to be able to do is tinker around the margins of perennial systems. Evolution, not revolution, wins the race. That is the lesson of Modernity, as it reaches its close.
Anonymous No.24658317 >>24658334
>>24658279
There aren't any capitalist countries left.
Anonymous No.24658334 >>24658348
>>24658317
I'll be kind, and presume you replied to the wrong post.
Anonymous No.24658348 >>24658383
>>24658334
You'll always shup up. Each and every time.
Anonymous No.24658383 >>24658391
>>24658348
Now I'm presuming you're just a nut job.
Anonymous No.24658391 >>24658439
>>24658383
There's some threads about blacks and whether they solved philosophy or not. That's more your speed.
Anonymous No.24658395
>>24657649 (OP)
>Every prediction Marx made has come true,

Name three.
Anonymous No.24658439 >>24658453
>>24658391
OK, so you're in the wrong thread entirely. Mystery solved.
Anonymous No.24658449 >>24663499
>>24657649 (OP)
Why would you support communism when the only communists countries are shitholes like North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela and Mexico?
Anonymous No.24658453 >>24658463
>>24658439
Every time you do this you always fail to continue. You're a good bitch, completely worthless but still a good bitch. Go back to sucking dicks in your shitbox or babbling about god or whatever you people do. I've specifically demonstrated both theoretical and practical and you still fail to continue. Go take your theoretical garbage back to religion and your practical back to dick sucking. You're a good goy, I'm relieving you of your shabbos duties, but you'll always be a bitch.
Anonymous No.24658455
>>24657649 (OP)
Anon, plenty of revolutions have happened, and you know how they ended up.
Anonymous No.24658463 >>24658493
>>24658453
The white rhinoceros, also known as the white rhino or square-lipped rhinoceros (Ceratotherium simum), is the largest extant species of rhinoceros and the most social of all rhino species, characterized by its wide mouth adapted for grazing. The species includes two subspecies with dramatically different conservation outlooks: the southern white rhinoceros, with an estimated 17,464 individuals in the wild as of the end of 2023,[3] and the northern white rhinoceros. The northern subspecies is critically endangered and on the brink of extinction; its last known male, Sudan, died in March 2018, leaving behind only a very small number of females in captivity.
Anonymous No.24658470
>>24658107
>for forty years
More like I want to see how Marx would have reacted to Soviet Union. I have read, some years ago, memoirs of Croatian marxist/communist Ante Ciliga, who got stuck in Stalinist Russia before WW2, and it's fun to read how he, over chapters, realizes his idealism fooled him, how not only Stalin, but also Trotsky and even Lenin "betrayed the revolution". He got so buck broken by this that once he managed to return to Croatia he became a nationalist.
Anonymous No.24658477
>>24657769
This is nothing, desu, if you want to talk about big fluctuations you should go with Pliocene, it was much hotter then it is now and life still thrived.
But argument they will make in response is that change is happening too fast, and maybe that true, I don't know.
Anonymous No.24658493
>>24658463
You got me. I don't know much about rhinos. Continue on if you like you noble horned creature. I won't continue past the response to advance a token gesture towards you. May this thread, doomed by op faggotry of speaking first, turn towards discussion of rhinos if only so anons can disseminate information.
Anonymous No.24658500
>>24658296
>Evolution
True, so transhumanist path.
Anonymous No.24658507 >>24658547
>revolution
Pretty sure he explicitly said there would be no revolution and the state would wither away and die as a natural consequence of capitalist contradictions.

But just like insane evangelicalfags nooooooo we can’t just wait, gotta do muh revolution now, gotta build muh temple
Anonymous No.24658524 >>24658552
The bourgeoisie still has a remarkably strong grip on the psyche of the proletariat. Vonnegut explains the issue with the American proletariat and their inability to organize very well through a fictional propaganda piece in Slaughterhouse Five. People would rather step on each other to climb one or two rungs up the ladder than work together pull the tower itself down. The American worker hates the working class. They idolize celebrities and create parasocial relationships with them to cope with their own self hatred. It's very similar to self-hating blacks and the Uncle Tom phenomenon.

What makes it even worse is how Trump has managed to convince so many people that HE is their liberator, despite obviously acting to protect his and other ruling elites' lifestyles. The rise of anti-intellectualism and the rejection of education will only make things worse. They successfully convinced male boomers, gen-x men and women, and now gen-z men and women that literature and what it can teach you is meaningless.

Truly grim times await us.
Anonymous No.24658547
>>24658507
>state would wither away
Was way to utopian that "prole revolution" would lead to statelessness. Would need some sci fi tier technological advabcnetbs to think about that.
Anonymous No.24658552 >>24658564
>>24658524
What Marxfags will never understand is that the proletariat literally want to be the bourgeoisie.
The reason they can't understand it is because they're self-hating bourgeoises themselves.
Anonymous No.24658564 >>24659551 >>24666443
>>24658552
In all fairness, Marx considers the bourgeoisie education system and indoctrination to be one of the greatest obstacles standing in front of his vision. You could argue that people would not hold that desire without bougie education telling them to. All of us are indoctrinated into the ruling class's economic machine. Everyone without the desire to grow themselves out of that indoctrination will believe what the bougie wants them to believe until they die.
Anonymous No.24659551 >>24659660
>>24658564
You're viewing "education" and "the bourgeoisie" atomistically instead of dialectically. Consider that generalised Fordist education occurred to instil labour discipline and overcome a lack of capacity to exert SNLP skill in production: people couldn't fit or turn. Now that almost anybody could turn a fit on the floor grand mal with semi-skilled labour, there is no purpose to the education system *other than* pure labour discipline. The education the bourgeoisie supplied for its own dilettantes or its servitors supply the state. "Indoctrination" doesn't matter nearly so much as habit formation—training someone to not stab people they disagree with immediately is more important than making people recapitulate the ideology of the parties of the bourgeoisie. Most people cannot recapitulate the doctrinaire habits of the rich; most people however do recapitulate the behavioural rules of social discipline internally.

And workers education societies *cause the same process, only in the official labourite oppositions.*

The standard of marxist discussion on this board has gone down hill, worse than opportunist, it is now reformist.
Anonymous No.24659660
>>24659551
>The standard of marxists on this board has gone down hill
ftfy
Anonymous No.24660653 >>24661291 >>24662782
>>24657649 (OP)
It's not the time yet. Capitalism is still comfortable. No need to ruin it for an inferior economic system. But when the time comes, when rent will no longer be payable, there will be a revolution.

We could even say there was a revolution in the 20th century in certain european country against the bankers due to the inflation being exaggeratedly high.
Anonymous No.24661291 >>24661341
>>24660653
What WOULD Marx think of actual fascism? It seems to me he didn't really foresee it.
Anonymous No.24661324
>>24657649 (OP)
Industrial capitalism doesn't really exist anymore, we do today live in what Marx would probably call "socialism" (not Marx's ideal socialism, but a type of degenerate socialism), and that transformation occurred as a direct result of the Russian and Chinese revolutions. There was a world revolution in capitalism during the 20th century, industrial capitalism effectively ended in the 1930s and a form of Fabian socialism replaced it as a matter of necessity. The west exists today under a monolithic socialist regime, it just isn't Marxist socialism.
Anonymous No.24661341
>>24661291
What did Marx think of Napoleon III. Remarkably we have a book about that.
Anonymous No.24661364
>>24657661
This. Why would I lidt a finger to fight the rich/immigrants/russians/ayys or whatever else when I can jerk off to anime girls?
Anonymous No.24661476 >>24662780
>>24658157
it's already happening. countries don't give a shit about international law anymore. decorum is eroding.
Anonymous No.24662780 >>24666360
>>24661476
>[some] countries don't give a shit about international law
When was it ever different?
And when was international law any restraint on barbarism? Barbarians gonna barbarise.
Anonymous No.24662782
>>24660653
>But when the time comes, when rent will no longer be payable, there will be a revolution.
Uh, no. The rent will fall. That's how markets work, champ.
Anonymous No.24663427
>>24657649 (OP)
And the great owners, who must lose their land in an upheaval, the great owners with access to history, with eyes to read history and to know the great fact: when property accumulates in too few hands it is taken away. And that companion fact: when a majority of the people are hungry and cold they will take by force what they need. And the little screaming fact that sounds through all history: repression works only to strengthen and knit the repressed. The great owners ignored the three cries of history. The land fell into fewer hands, the number of the dispossessed increased, and every effort of the great owners was directed at repression. The money was spent for arms, for gas to protect the great holdings, and spies were sent to catch the murmuring of revolt so that it might be stamped out. The changing economy was ignored, plans for the change ignored; and only means to destroy revolt were considered, while the causes of revolt went on.
Anonymous No.24663454
>>24658180
>i genuinely have more in common with my rich rentseeking boss
The real issue is the complete erosion of education, as seen in this post.
Anonymous No.24663499 >>24666298 >>24666604
>>24658449
To be honest living in North Korea sounds infinitly better than living in South Korea these days
>no massive work days without proper breaks or holidays
>no parlament constantly breaking apart
>no being blasted by information, reels, advertisements and so on no matter where you are
>no immigrants
>no big america and the disgusting dreck they shit out for the whole world
>no drugs
>no porn
>no crime
>food shortages have been solved since the 90s and things are going pretty well
The only bad aspects are that you are still living in Korea with their shitty asian customs, the only way to move upward is via the state (while they do offer plenty of opportunities to join the party and governmental agencies it still boils down to petty insider politics and nepotism) and you're gonna be turbo fucked if you try to I don't know make fun of Kim or casually say a swear word to your superior
It's pretty much like living in a isolated rural town where people barely have cable television and have jack shit to do but go to each other's houses, gossip about local news and farm
Western traditionalists keep forgetting real communism mostly solves the problems they speak about and their real enemies are social democrats and petty khruschevites
Anonymous No.24665401
>>24657649 (OP)
Imagine actually being a Marxist. How fucking stupid do you have to be to unironically be a Marxist? It’s the most retarded ideology to have ever existed. I pity you.
Anonymous No.24666258 >>24666530
>>24657649 (OP)
Marx might've devised a silly utopian roadmap to free the proletariat from their chains and achieve world communism which wouldn't work under 99.9% of conditions, but he was a literal megamind galaxybrain for NOOOTICING the ills of Capitalism and what it foretold for the future.
Anonymous No.24666293
>>24658216
>The time for revolutions came and went for most countries
So it seems, so it seems.
Anonymous No.24666298 >>24666585
>>24663499
>no massive work days without proper breaks or holidays
>no being blasted by information
are you sure buddy?
Also the worst thing about living in North Korea is literal starvation.
If communism is so good, East Germans would not climb the wall to get to West Germany
Anonymous No.24666360 >>24666378 >>24667749
>>24657649 (OP)
>Why is this?
For Marx, if the proles realized that it was irrational for them to work for someone else when they could work for their own, in essence realize their alienation, then they would have revolted against the bourgeoisie.
The problem is that the irrationality of working for the bourgeoisie becomes in this context a lack of opportunity : the prole has no other choices than to work for the bourgeois to make money.
Social-democracy solves this by making everyone more or less have equal chances at becoming a "bourgeois" (as in someone rich). If everyone is given their chances at success, it becomes redundant to have a revolution and to organize the means of production.

>Is the proletariat just fucking retarded?
Baudrillard, Deleuze & Guattari, Foucault and a myriad of french authors talk about this : the state controls the information and shapes our desire. Thus people have been socialized for and by capitalism and don't want anything else.

>Or do we have to wait 2 more weeks?
We kinda do. Albeit Marx wrote about alienation and how it was irrational to be a prole when you could own the means of production, he also wrote (and was correct to a relative degree) about the crisis that capitalism induced and how the system isn't sustainable.
As time passes, and as many of you have noticed, ecologist movements, china catching up, alternative models for capitalism have all challenged the grip that capitalism withholds. The revolution won't be marxist-leninist, it'll be a series of rational choices made by politicians to adapt trade within the global changes that have occured. It's reforms like reducing the work week to 4 days to make companies hire more, making municipalities own the housing market, creating state-owned companies to invest in green energy etc.

>Or perhaps, Marx was wrong, and class consciousness does not naturally permeate as a result of the material conditions of the working class.
He was wrong in thinking that the working class could have a revolution. Irl, the working class is too divided to focus on troons and blacks to have any meaningful impact.

>>24662780
The only times where countries successfully managed to adhere to a broad set of principles prior to the modern UN was with the League of Nations. And the reason it disbanded was because populist leaders managed to coast off rising populism in response to the economic crisis. Then ww2 happened.
Before that countries had more or less always respected some code of honor. For instance the Franco-prussian war didn't see mass rape and pillages, only professionals soldiers shooting at each other.
Economic crisis decimating entire nations is a new phenomenon, and subsequent large-scale populism that can channeled into atrocities is also a new phenomenon. This isn't because of capitalism per-se, but because capitalism introduces the means to make the local mass killing into a genocide.

>>24658296
>people have always died so we should just kys
Anonymous No.24666378 >>24666452 >>24666747
>>24666360
>Social-democracy solves this by making everyone more or less have equal chances at becoming a "bourgeois" (as in someone rich). If everyone is given their chances at success, it becomes redundant to have a revolution and to organize the means of production.
There is no solution to improving material conditions or alleviating class struggle that has the bourgs remaining in the equation, what you think DemSoc "solves" is the half-assed socialism implemented in most "communist" or ML-identifying countries. If everyone is going to rise up up above the modes of production you need either highly automated productive forces and planned distribution of commodities or (spoiler: this is what always happens) export labor to somewhere else and exploit workers there.
Anonymous No.24666443
>>24658564
>Muh people wouldn't want to be rich elites if they weren't brainwashed into it
Communists are the dumbest people in existence. You cannot brainwash away greed, motherfuckers will be lusting for power until the end of time.
Anonymous No.24666452 >>24666454
>>24666378
There is no solution to this problem in a world with limited resources. This is the problem socialists and communists are incapable of accepting. The problem is that Socialists actually take this into account, and work with a system that curbs the worst excesses by forcing the people who end up inevitably running the means of production to recontribute to those they exploit. Sadly for them they are ruined by their association with communists who cannot accept this reality.
Anonymous No.24666454 >>24666467
>>24666452
you think capitalism is gonna generate infinite resources?
Anonymous No.24666467 >>24666530
>>24666454
I don't, capitalism can only work under the premise that there aren't infinite resources, which is why our current state is becoming so shitty. The people at the top genuinely believe they can get infinite resources, and infinitely compound their wealth because they've fallen for the same delusion as communists. In fact, communists are likely more intelligent, because they don't have as much of a complete detachment from human reality
Anonymous No.24666503
>>24657769
No scientist in the field disputes the climate has changed. But if you think pumping gigatons of GHGs every year won't influence the climate faster than humans can adapt, you're a fool. Yes, we should be in a cooling trends, but we're not. Bad idea to use a graph that dates to 1970 before the warming movement became truly perceptible.
Anonymous No.24666504
>>24657649 (OP)
Yes to them being retarded. People imagine a Proletariat being in control, and bearing with it dictatorship against classist and exploitative power. Though, for them to form an all around dictatorship with totalitarian power and collective, cooperated autonomous decisions while in collective would no longer turn them into “proletarians”. How can one be Proletarian and in a Dictatorship.
Anonymous No.24666530 >>24666540
>>24666467
>capitalism can only work under the premise that there aren't infinite resources
Dead WRONG, mi amigo. Capitalism works on the premise of endless accumulationmaxxing. Read Marx>>24666258
Anonymous No.24666540 >>24666554
>>24666530
i hate to be the one to break this to you but marx isn't an infallible religious text, he could in fact be wrong
Anonymous No.24666554
>>24666540
Who said he isn't? he's correct on this bit, though. It's observable, verifiable and reproducible; Capital accumulation is predicated on pushing surplus value into generating new capital, otherwise commodities and value are just being shuffled around.
Anonymous No.24666585
>>24666298
Starvation hasn't been a thing there since the early 90s anon... The food shortage has pretty much been fixed. Their work load is lower than that of the average south korean because they don't work for massive multinational corporations without any regulations to their worker's rights. Sure they got no civil rights but at least they don't wageslave as much as koreans or japanese. Sweatshops in NK are unheard of because it's mostly a self sustaining economy unlike in China or Vietnam where they work heavily with exports. North Korea is just Kim's feudal shithole and it's as close to feudalism as you can get in the modern world, they aren't even communists because cmon if you were born in Kim Jon Un's position would you really care for the nation, the big international revolution and so on or juat the fact you were born in what's basically a royal family, filthy rich with peasants worshipping you because you're the only celebrity they know
East germans climbed the wall because they wanted drugs, which the West had in full. Every single east german who climbed the wall was a strain on the DDR
Anonymous No.24666604 >>24666643 >>24666747
>>24663499
lol what a joke. SK might be a hellish dump but it has some of the highest standards of living in the world, and there's always the option of emigrating elsewhere to find better skilled work for better QoL and living.

DPRK on the other hand, for all the safety nets that come with 'socialist lite' implementations, is literally a real grim parody of Marxism-Leninism, straight out of Animal Farm. If you compare NK to Animal Farm, pretty much every single thing Orwell satirized about he Soviet Union is there, from random about-facing on state policy and "those guys bad these guys kinda alright" to shelving old idols when the current dear leader wants to subsume all credit for all the trumpeted success down to dealing with capitalists and throwing the working class under the bus for profit while selling the image of communism to the workers at home and finally to the existence of the literal bleating sheep from Animal Farm (people droning 'Manse' whenever Kim shows up).
Anonymous No.24666606 >>24666616
>>24657649 (OP)
He couldnt have predicted the development of the service industry and the entire obfuscation of any kind of useful class disctinctions.
Anonymous No.24666616 >>24666620 >>24666747
>>24666606
>entire obfuscation of any kind of useful class disctinctions
the reverse is happening, actually. classes are ossifying if anything, but the petit-bourgs are trending down.
Anonymous No.24666620
>>24666616
the other day i saw an article about american's retirement savings and for my age group i'm not above average but i am above median, so could be worse
Anonymous No.24666629
>>24657725
>The opposite occurred
Because of the bourgeoisie. Have you even read the Communist Manifesto? And, yes, the working class are stupid.
And I agree with Russel Bertrand’s opinion on the trade union: it is a political tool for the bourgeois to manipulate the working class, but, paradoxically , I also agree that syndicates— councilism and cooperatives too— are the perfect means against oligarchy and tyranny.
Anonymous No.24666643
>>24666604
Im not saying North Korea is not any of these things. They are and they suck for it. It's such a spiritually harrowing place to walk through and live in to the point I genuinely wonder how people have the strength to have kids
Im just saying living in South Korea is such a absurdly worst fate that it makes North Korea look good by comparison. Sure they might be showing up all fancy in international statistics and graphs but don't forget the suicide statistics following up right after that! The average korean can't start a family, has to live in a absurdly tiny apartment consuming anime porn to keep himself sane, has to deal with constantly psychotic political measures from multiple parties, can't find himself a good university or job, has to be around overcrowded workplaces and metros just reminding him of how exchangeable he is. I say this as someone who did exchange studies in Japan and visited both koreas, the western mindset and imperialism has made SK into a unlivable overly heated shithole that to be honest the marble absolutely dry brutalist architecture with all the empty buildings and dry air of NK feels better than the absolute mess that is SK. This is also because both koreas are slave nations composed of spiritually dead people, both regimes just have different ways around that. It's not like we don't got political persecution and censorship in my country (Australia) either!
Anonymous No.24666659
>>24657649 (OP)
The proletariat doesn't exist in developed countries. Everybody works in their fake service economy job filling out spreadsheets and pretending they contribute in any way to social welfare. Service economy kikes basically hacked Marxism to ensure third worlders who are actually exploited and treated like cattle won't have the means to rise up and first worlders won't have a reason to out of fear of losing their comfy bullshit jobs.
Anonymous No.24666665
we're at 83 replies...have any predictions of marx's been shared yet
Anonymous No.24666747 >>24666762
>>24666378
>There is no solution to improving material conditions or alleviating class struggle that has the bourgs remaining in the equation
The whole point of DemSoc is that you can effectively solve the contradiction within capitalism whilst maintaining a capitalist economy and democracy.
Economic crisis ? Reinvest in the economy. Offshoring is more appealing ? Impose tariffs and protectionism. Workers are "alienated" ? Give them the chance to work where they seek by education, to create co-op, to create their own enterprises. Economy unsuited for the needs of the population ? Create non-profit state-owned enterprises to adress specific markets. The list goes on but the point is specifically to solve capitalism without taking the risk of total failure (like the USSR).

>If everyone is going to rise up up above the modes of production
The idea isn't that everyone rises up above the means of production, but that these ownerships of the means of production don't become an impediment to others.

But yeah, I mostly agree with you. Social democracy has largely failed in the west and given the current situation, marxism-leninism could actually solve many problems. But the trauma of the soviet experience in the East can't make this a reality.

>>24666616
The difference it makes is that service workers don't feel alienated from their own jobs and are more so a new intermediate class of workers than blue collar workers.
A white collar techie who is paid very well with enough liberty to not feel trapped doesn't feel alienated from his job, and so doesn't want to unionize or to have a revolution.

>>24666604
One thing I wonder about NK is how good have they managed to "rationalize" the economy. Are their still huge waiting lines for food ? Have they managed to not over/under produce ? If so which mechanism have they incorporated in their isolationnist ML economy to do so ?
Anonymous No.24666762 >>24667079
>>24666747
>Economic crisis ? Reinvest in the economy. Offshoring is more appealing ? Impose tariffs and protectionism. Workers are "alienated" ? Give them the chance to work where they seek by education, to create co-op, to create their own enterprises. Economy unsuited for the needs of the population ? Create non-profit state-owned enterprises to adress specific markets. The list goes on but the point is specifically to solve capitalism without taking the risk of total failure (like the USSR).
DemSoc is... le welfare state with a shelf life of about 30 years before stagnation hits like a truck? sounds a lot like Yugoslavia, with all the utopianist "it's gonna work, trust me" koolaid.
Anonymous No.24666773 >>24666798 >>24667079
>have to read Hegel to understand Marx
>have to read Kant to understand Hegel
>have to read Leibniz to understand Kant
>have to read Descartes to understand Kant
>have to read Wolff to understand Kant
>have to read Spinoza to understand Kant
>have to read Hume to understand Kant
>have to read Schelling to understand Hegel
>have to read Fichte to understand Schelling
>have to read Bohme to understand Hegel
>have to read Bible to understand Bohme
>have to read Aquinas to understand Descartes
>have to read Aristotle to understand Aquinas
>have to read Dionysius to understand Aquinas
>have to read Proclus to understand Dionysius
>have to read Plotinus to understand Proclus
>have to read Plato to understand Aristotle
>have to read Feuerbach
>have to read Stirner
>etc. etc.
I don't know how the fuck you people ever made it to Marx I've been doing this for 5 years and I'm nowhere near ready. One day I will read Marx but at this rate it will be another 5 years or so.
Anonymous No.24666798
>>24666773
You really don’t have to, just read some secondary literature like Kolakowski’s Main Currents of Marxism or Wilson’s To The Finland Station and you should be fine. I personally read The Worldly Philosophers by Heilbroner and could understand the work of Marx perfectly fine after having read that.
Anonymous No.24666805
>>24658101
it's more that they simply believe the petit-bourgeoise is diluting their numerical advantage in the political arena. They hate people who they think should be on their side, but aren't out of self-interest, ignorance, or cowardice
Anonymous No.24666907
>>24658101
commies hate the petit bourgs because they're upjumped proles who throw their weight with the grand bourgeoisie, helping keep things counterpoised against the workers.

it's the same kind of vitriolic, visceral hate they also have for democratic socialists/socialist democrats, they hate those even more than their fascist archnemesis.
Anonymous No.24667079
>>24666762
>DemSoc is... le welfare state with a shelf life of about 30 years before stagnation hits like a truck?
Yeah more or less. You can't conform private enterprises to adhere to certain standards and regulations without running the risk of capital flight. Which is exactly what happened and why Europe has been stagnant for years now.
This is something every politician knows too : the technocrats at brussels are aware of it since the Draghi report openly advocates for more state intervention for competitiveness, the right is aware but don't give a shit since they're neoliberals (for the most part), and the left focuses on finding new ways to extract wealth from its citizen to fund the machine.
Desu it could've worked if the EU had been more protectionnists and had intervened more in its economy with state-owned companies like China. But alas, the soviet trauma is far too potent to have any hope of a red future.

It's very ironic, we're a deindustrialized continent with low innovation yet we still have one of the extractive form of governance. And despite all that we refuse to invest in strategic sectors beyond a few billions here and there.

>>24666773
Just read a history book on the 19th century, a book on Hegelianism and a book on marx before reading marx and you'll be fine.
Anonymous No.24667749
>>24666360
>Economic crisis decimating entire nations is a new phenomenon, and subsequent large-scale populism that can channeled into atrocities is also a new phenomenon
Wrong, and wrong.
Anonymous No.24667784 >>24668722
>>24657649 (OP)
The proletariat is unable to organise themselves effectively and lack the support of the middle class. As the issues begin to rise and more are affected, support grows. The organisation of the middle class creates structure for the lower, allowing them to organise and be used against the ruling class. The ruling classes greatest fear, is an educated lower. The middle are the educated lower.
Anonymous No.24668722 >>24670229
>>24657649 (OP)
>>24667784
One of the basic false assumptions of Marxism is that the proletariat are an undifferentiated mass, all with the same interests and goals, ready to be molded like clay into a revolutionary weapon.
The notion that they are individuals with personal agency simply never occurs to Marxists. Which is why they make bemused posts like OP.
There is literally no such thing as class consciousness, except in the minds of disappointed proto-revolutionaries.
Anonymous No.24670088
>>24657649 (OP)
Have you ever considered
>LTV is bunk
>Alturism bad
>Dialectics are the philosophical equivalent of trannies dilating
You can also look at concepts like the:
>Literally every single socialist experiment failing so catastrophically it almost ushered in a dark age if not for places still not entirely socialist still existing
>Commies inventing shit like the socialist honeymoon phase aka it wasn't real socialism or parasitic idealism aka the embargos did the crimes against humanity, socialism simply needs capitalism to function in any capacity
>social status/=/ wealth the first one is zero sum and the latter is made by man
>social status is civilizationally worthless while wealth is central, the elder of an injun tribe is dumb slave for the lowliest conquistador
Anonymous No.24670229
>>24668722
huh?
Anonymous No.24670439
>>24657649 (OP)
Anonymous No.24670465
>>24657649 (OP)
Revolutions are a stochastic phenomena, they can't be planned in advance. If they could the ruling class would just stop them accordingly. That's kind of the hell of the situation, we're always sitting on top of a tense boiling situation but neither side can ever know when it will kick off. Its could be tomorrow, it could be in a hundred years.
Anonymous No.24670472
>>24657649 (OP)
>proletariat
You can't have a prole if you invent contraceptives and legalize abortion. They aren't a thing anymore, except in extremely poor countries.
Anonymous No.24670480
>>24657661
Dying for a cause, itself, can be consumerist.

Consumerism isn't merely physical goods.
Anonymous No.24670487
>>24657649 (OP)
If Marxists believed in the dialectic, why do they believe they can short circuit it?
Anonymous No.24670511
>>24657649 (OP)
Its not Marx or Engels fault, but Communism has become a stale pre-packaged ideology, complete with a good VS evil narrative and "final battle" against capitalism won with a "magic key" supposedly held by one of the fifty million different Marxist cults. If you disagree with this simplistic narrative you're a traitor and a reformist. Never mind that Engels literally said whatever happens, the outcome will be a compromise no-one will ever truly be satisfied with, which makes sense considering we're dealing with societies composed of millions of people and not clockwork mechanisms that can be would up made to do whatever you want.

The fact is that Marxism, despite the wishes of its creators, is now not a science, but a pre-packaged ideology. The left no longer focuses on helping workers and the exploited middle class, but now consists of intellectuals in basements drawing up grand strategies for a final battle that will never come.