Thread 24697451

Nietzsche gets hit with a trad one-two


Roger Scruton:

>“There are philosophers who have repudiated the goal of truth -- Nietzsche, for example, who argued that there are no truths, only interpretations. But you need only ask yourself whether what Nietzsche says is true, to realize how paradoxical it is. (If it is true, then it is false! -- an instance of the so-called 'liar' paradox.) Likewise, the French philosopher Michel Foucault repeatedly argues as though the 'truth' of an epoch has no authority outside of the power-structure that endorses it. There is no trans-historical truth about the human condition. But again, we should ask ourselves whether that last statement is true: for if it is true, it is false. There has arisen among modernist philosophers a certain paradoxism which has served to put them out of communication with those of their contemporaries who are merely modern. A writer who says that there are no truths, or that all truth is "merely relative," is asking you not to believe him. So don't.”

Chesterton on Nietzsche

>Nietzsche had some natural talent for sarcasm: he could sneer, though he could not laugh; but there is always something bodiless and without weight in his satire, simply because it has not any mass of common morality behind it. He is himself more preposterous than anything he denounces. But, indeed, Nietzsche will stand very well as the type of the whole of this failure of abstract violence. The softening of the brain which ultimately overtook him was not a physical accident. If Nietzsche had not ended in imbecility, Nietzscheism would end in imbecility. Thinking in isolation and with pride ends in being an idiot. Every man who will not have softening of the heart must at last have softening of the brain.

More Scruton on Nietzsche

>Nietzsche himself has become a kind of idol. Despite his antagonism towards democracy and mass culture, despite his unashamedly racist attack on the Germans and all things German, despite his advocacy of ‘health’ and strength against the ‘sickness’ of compassion, despite his contempt for socialists, vegetarians, feminists and women generally – despite committing every sin condemned by the morality of ‘political correctness’, Nietzsche is now a cult figure.

Even Bertrand Russell has an insightful critique

>I dislike Nietzsche because he likes the contemplation of pain, because he erects conceit into a duty, because the men whom he most admires are conquerors, whose glory is cleverness in causing men to die. But I think the ultimate argument against his philosophy, as against any unpleasant but internally self-consistent ethic, lies not in an appeal to facts, but in an appeal to emotions. Nietzsche despises universal love; I feel it the motive power to all that I desire as regards the world. His followers have had their innings, but we may hope that it is coming rapidly to an end.

>>24697451 (OP)
Criticising the Neetschster is fantastic heuristic for discovering useless conservative tosspots

>>24697451 (OP)
>Thinking in isolation and with pride ends in being an idiot.
Literally the summation of 4chan.

>>24697451 (OP)
>
shows a paradox regarding Nietzsche's truth yet doesn't proceed to give a definition for it, because he's being disingenuous and knows Nietzsche is right; there is no universal truth
>
ad hominem and straight up false, Nietzsche had chronic pain behind his eyes since he was 9. scientists speculate it may have been a tumor, which ultimately ended up in his demise
>
already debunked
>
how does he appeal to emotions and not facts?

wow i never knew how much of a midwit scruton was, this is the level of thinking of someone who goes on joe rogan or daily wire or something

Chesterton I respect and some of his stuff on nietzsche doesn't seem great but that is a decent point and is probably correct. However I think most people who criticize nietzsche would be even less happy to see what happens when a nietzschean embraces that sort of common love of people. Heidegger I would say took that step. I think Cheseterton's views also kind of echo that.
I am not sure it's entirely fair to actually say that criticism applies to Nieztsche, though it does apply to nietzscheans, I do feel there is something of a meek desperate sorrow throughout Nietzsche's work related to that. A sort of rejection of that at least to some extent is necessary, and that does require taking on that hard attitude. I think it pretty consistently comes off as being fundamentally contrary to our nature and painful but necessary.

bertrand also making a retarded point he doesn't even arise to the level of someone who would go on rogan

>>24697531
Scruton is the only person I have seen make a sound defense for Israel. He points out that Muslims don’t hate America because of Israel. Rather they hate America because of freedom and Muslims only hate Israel because it it is friends with America

>Organizations like Hamas and the Islamic Jihad take their inspiration from the Muslim Brotherhood and the Hizbullah. They do not work through diplomacy or negotiation, but through violence, and suicide bombings are now their principal device. In these circumstances it is almost impossible for Israel to form a coherent policy towards the Palestinians.

>If we see the Palestinian conflict in this way, we shall be led to reject the currently fashionable view that the terrorist threat to America comes from America’s support for Israel. On the contrary. It is Israel’s relation to America that makes Israel the target of militant Islam.

>>24697538
damn people who like scruton are retards too, crazy

>>24697538
>He points out that Muslims don’t hate America because of Israel. Rather they hate America because of freedom
Dubya stop drukposting

>>24697552
Scruton was unironically right about neoconservatism in that it is a conservative alternative to international liberalism

>>24697475
BAP showed us that the Nietzschean right is the only way forward

>>24697594
he's based because he says "nigger"!! holy kekerino!! my sides!!! this but unironically!!!!

>>24697606
You seem upset. Did you forget you have your onions for breakfast this morning?

>>24697648
Exasperated at the chronic dumbassery of your ilk, more like.

I get that it‘d be retarded to come to the conclusion of some JIDF type thing instead of a random midwit somehow arriving at the conclusion that his specific curated quotes on Nietzsche deserve attention head and shoulders above the rest; but I would completely understand if somebody came to the conclusion of some coordinated agenda-driven spergery based on the fact that you felt the need to make a topic of this when there is already one on the front page of people debating secondary takedowns on N.

>>24697648
what's wrong with onions eh?

>>24697538
That might be the most retarded IP take I’ve ever heard, to the point where I feel like you may have made it up to troll.

>>24697451 (OP)
>"Source?!"
This is actually a good question

>>24697491
Russell is the one appealing to emotions, that’s his point. Russell thinks love is nice, and doesn’t feel Nietzsche is in favour of love, and therefore Nietzsche is unconvincing.
Chesterton’s case is very similar.

>>24697802
Not at all, it’s from his book, The West and the Rest, which explains why Islam is incompatible with western values. A good example he uses is that in Sharia Law, corporate personhood, which is fundamental to western law, can’t exist, because in Sharia Law only individuals can be recognized as legal persons and all acts in law must be considered as acts of individual legal persons

>>24697917
Get thee behind me

>>24697538
>Muslims only hate Israel because it it is friends with America
Anon, I don't know how to tell you this gently, so I'll just be frank: this is astonishingly retarded

>>24697972
I hope you realize that you’re parroting the exact same rhetoric of Osama Bin Laden who tried to justify himself by American support for Israel

>The American government is leading the country towards hell. We say to the Americans as people and to American mothers, if they cherish their lives and if they cherish their sons, they must elect an American patriotic government that caters to their interests not the interests of the Jews.

you idiots should be doing something more productive, like playing videogames

>>24697538
my god... typical zogbot regurgitating the same written script.

>>24697931
Nietzsche feels love isn't nice and posits vulgar lust for power as the highest ideal. Same difference. You assume he's being more "real" and his opponents are being sentimental because this lust for power is fallen man's natural state and is today widely championed (tacitly or explicitly) by pop culture. Nietzscheism is gangsta rapper ethics. Andrew Tate is the nietzscheite's final form, and it reeks of cum, steroids and tacky cologne.

>>24698028
Love loves love. It’s the opposite of ressentiment

>>24697989
This is good bait. It's not great bait, because it's a little too retarded to be believable, but it's still good.

>>24698059
Read The West and the Rest as well as How to be a Conservative, both by Roger Scruton, before making a bigger fool out of yourself

>>24698057
This sounds nice and clears things up. I should read more theology.

>>24698057
And by sounds nice I mean rings true.

>>24698064
Overplaying your hand now.

>>24697451 (OP)
Scruton was so mid-witted it's genuinely painful to read him. He could never be labeled as good a thinker as some thought him to be, and, in fact, he should have avoided putting any philosopher's names in his mouth, since it's disrespectful, even when not liking Foucault and Nietzsche, that this absolute fucking retard Scruton gets to carelessly invoke them

>>24697989
>if they cherish their lives and if they cherish their sons, they must elect an American patriotic government that caters to their interests not the interests of the Jews.
One problem with this position is that it fails to recognize that those who claim to be Jews today have no connection to the Israel or Jews of ancient times that are spoken of in the Bible. There is no actual connection there. Anyone who thinks or acts as if there is a real connection between the ancient Jews of the Bible and the modern imposters is only showing how they have been subverted by lies before they even started thinking.

>>24698028
Or as a great philosopher once pointed out, if we do indeed Get Rid Of Slimy girlS, who do we smooch?

>someone posts their hot Nietzsche criticism
>its pure stupidity and clear the author hasn’t even read Nietzsche’s corpus
Every single time. Nietzsche is the ultimate redditor filter. The ones who smugly defend their status quo and don’t look to see that it’s an illegitimate wreck built on nothing.

>>24699682
It’s the other way around. These people have read Nietzsche much more thoroughly than yourself which is why their interpretation differs from yours.

>>24697451 (OP)
>If it is true, then it is false! -- an instance of the so-called 'liar' paradox
This is the most retarded ass argument. The onus is on you to prove that there is absolute truth because you are the one that is claiming that it exists. Nietzsche is not making any metaphysical commitment. He is simply stating his perspective.

>>24697451 (OP)
Bertrand is lacking nuance, it’s weird. It tells me he is a giant pussy. He’s not stupid he’s just a cowardly guy.

>>24697538
Partially true, they do seethe and cope because we are free and they have a deep desire to control everything. But they are fighting over the holy land first and foremost. They dislike America because we helped Israel.

>>24699714
>nietzsche is… le paradox
>nietzsche is….le mad
>nietzsche is….le mean
>nietzsche is le….cult figure

Amazing arguments, truly shows an in depth and close reading of Nietzsche!

>>24699751
You can’t even accurately summarize a few quotes, and yet you are confident that you understand Nietzsche better than a pair of actual philosophy professors with decades of experience in the field. Really makes you think

>>24697451 (OP)
>But you need only ask yourself whether what Nietzsche says is true, to realize how paradoxical it is.
not everything that refers/applies to itself is necessarily paradoxical you fucking moron

>>24699395
White Christians are the actual Jews of the Bible. The “Jews” today are not actually Jewish. They are imposters and only why the Christians, the real Jews, can defeat the wannabe Jews

>>24700947
Jacob/Esau is literally a story about how the strong and capable should be made to serve those who get ahead by trickery. It‘s insane how warped your perspective needs to be sink into these levels of delusion about how you‘re not *really* worshipping your mortal enemy because of a few lines internal to jewish historicism and roundly dismissed by everybody else.

>>24700981
Post nose

>>24697451 (OP)
I don't know who Scruton is but his and Russel's quotes are fucking stupid.
Only the Chesterton one is interesting and insightful (insight to its author, that is)

>>24697475
The entire libtard ethos is based around slave morality tho. I've never understood why you guys adore Nietzsche

>>24701247
No idea why you think conservatives aren’t liberals. Conservatism today is conservative liberalism. Conservatism in Nietzsche’s day was basically about strict Christian control of society. I don’t think he would be very infatuated with either

>>24697451 (OP)
If you're god then you're god

>>24701247
There's plenty of excellent resources out there explaining why left-wing thinkers adore Nietzsche, but that would require you to read, and conservatives don't read
>inb4 spoonfeed me!!!
No, you know how to use the internet.

>>24699792
I did accurately summarize them and none of them are some all encapsulating refutation. You’re the one who can’t actually read anything, which is why all you can do is post quotes from others and say “look!” while adding absolutely no context or insights of your own. This is typical for the christcuck I guess.

>>24701264
>has to defer explanations of "his" beliefs to others
Yup it's a lefty

>>24701277
>if you don't spoonfeed me then you're a tranny
Why are conservatives like this? So aggressively retarded

>>24699792
Russell's attack on Nietzsche is widely ridiculed by Nietzsche scholars as an uncharacteristically retarded misinterpretation by Russell, but keep on pretending to be smart on the internet. Fake it till you make it!

>>24701285
If you're a leftist and a fan of Nietzsche, how about you explain how you can reconcile his criticism of slave morality with your beliefs?

>>24701310
he attacks slave morality because he thinks it holds people back from the highest levels of human flourishing, fueled by resentment and passive nihilism. or, in terms you're more familiar with, it's retarded to define yourself purely in opposition to other people. (as an off-the-cuff example, I'm old enough to remember when the average american had no opinion at all on trannies one way or the other. this might be difficult for you to believe, and you will probably think I'm lying, but genuinely there was such a time. then the right decided to sperg out over trannies and now the left has to shout how much they love trannies. both sides of this are retarded. the right is retarded because they're defining themselves in opposition to trannies (this is just an example, there are other things) and the left is retarded because they're defining themselves in opposition to the right's opposition.) we can see how capitalism fosters resentment, conformity, and life-denying values, which IMO is bad. the method he uses to critique slave morality can be used to critique a bunch of other things as well, which is fun. please don't make me regret giving you a genuine answer

>>24701339
Lol this is a mess thanks for the answer though

>>24697451 (OP)
I mean, I don't think the idea that human cognition is inherently motivated through bias which causes intellectuals to rationalize a so-called cerebral logic is the same as saying nothing is true independent of human understanding. It's more of an indictment on humans than it is on truth itself. Also, it seems odd that Russell would himself make such a blatant appeal to emotion (it's actually not that odd because Russell seems to arbitrarily violate his own preference for logic when he sees fit - such as denying the cosmological argument as a fallacy of composition despite the fact he would NEVER apply this to his epistemological and ontological outlook.)

>>24697594
Yes, a jewish sodomite enlight you ? truly a wonder

>>24697606
You resumed all right winger grifters today

>>24697451 (OP)
Many such cases, what you expect from vermins who just consume the same shit everyday ? lol

>>24697451 (OP)
>Copy pastes bunch of dumb statements
Incredible thread retarded faggot. You sure convinced me with your hot opinions

>>24697451 (OP)
After many years, I've decided to take Nietzsche's advice and stay away from the rabble from now on. This includes having conversations on 4chan. I might still lurk certain boards when I need something specific, but that's about it. I've had enough. I'm only posting this to advise you that you should do the same. Time is precious and patience still limited even for the most patient.

>>24697451 (OP)
That Scruton quote is excellent.

>>24697931
Half true. Chesterton makes an actual compelling argument. That pride if taken to the limit ends to madness and stupidity. The act of learning requires some humility. You become open somehow to another and put your knowledge below what exists.

To treat it as an act of conquest or acquisition is not quite right. Our ideas, if we are seeking truth, must be subjected to what exists and modified in accord with what exists.

Sure, it's not a one way street... but if you really make the will an absolute value, it's much easier to delude oneself into thinking one has all the power than to really obtain it.

>>24697531
what is your argument against his point? Don't think just because it's a simple argument, it's not rock solid

>>24698022
NTA but a lot of Muslims would indeed like a one world theocracy. That could lend some credence to the "freedom hatred". America, for better or worse (in an ideal sense) is where opinions and ideas are given an open forum where each one can be upheld to scrutiny and judged based on demonstrable evidence. This freedom of conscience angers Islam who think their beliefs ought to be the only one allowed. Of course there is outliers to this with Evangelicals (who no doubt are angered by their eschatological support of Israel) but hyper-rational societies often produce anti-rational drift. This can be seen on how the hyper-rational Enlightenment in Europe ended up producing people like Blake and Novalis.

>>24704200
Muslims get so pissy and intolerant in part because they're subject to a lot of violence. You think le /pol/ is radicalized? Imagine if blacks were bombing their homes all over and killing their kids. By the 1900's, Muslims were really mellowing out. Each of their countries started turning from liberalism more and more as they got screwed harder and harder. Iran would never have gone for a theocracy if they weren't getting raped by Britain oil interests. You anger people enough for long enough and they always, always turn to the most hardline ideologies, whether it's hardcore Islam, hardcore nationalism, hardcore communism, etc. And people pushed to that always develop a strong hostility toward any dissent from their ideology

Anyway, historically Islam was always far more tolerant of freedom of belief than Christianity was. Even for most of the Enlightenment outside of America

>>24704315
>Muslims get so pissy and intolerant in part because they're subject to a lot of violence. You think le /pol/ is radicalized? Imagine if blacks were bombing their homes all over and killing their kids. By the 1900's, Muslims were really mellowing out. Each of their countries started turning from liberalism more and more as they got screwed harder and harder. Iran would never have gone for a theocracy if they weren't getting raped by Britain oil interests. You anger people enough for long enough and they always, always turn to the most hardline ideologies, whether it's hardcore Islam, hardcore nationalism, hardcore communism, etc. And people pushed to that always develop a strong hostility toward any dissent from their ideology.
Understandable. Must be why there's so many of us far right types here in the states.

>Anyway, historically Islam was always far more tolerant of freedom of belief than Christianity was. Even for most of the Enlightenment outside of America
Maybe in the time of Averroes and Avicenna. But recently? No.

>>24697475

>conservative

No, they are now godless as well.

The Christian who shared this has more faith than the President of the United States.

As a Muslim, I relate most strongly with Christians who take their religion seriously.

Many here taking refuge in the countryside. The last stand of American Christianity.

>>24704329
But your idea of getting screwed won’t be comparable unless you came home to find your entire family slaughtered and your family home destroyed. And see on TV Americans celebrating while the President says, “You have to take out their families” and everyone cheers

The Inquisition was in the early modern era. If anything the Reformation made Christians even less tolerant. The 30 Years War was brutal and France still often subjected non Catholics to torture until Napoleon

>>24699751
Are they wrong?

>>24704340
Christianity always stood for love and tolerance. It’s not surprise that that would anger a Mohammadan

>>24701339
>it's retarded to define yourself purely in opposition to other people.
Worked for Schmitt. Thats what all of life boils down to. At least honest leftists realize this. (You) do not.

>>24704351
Well geography plays a part in that so unless you can move tectonic plates so you can bomb easier, good luck.

>>24704466
This is a complete full-board retard reading of Schmitt, the drooling kind. Friend-enemy distinction refers to friend-enemy of the state (of the polis, the political enemy), not the individual friend or enemy, as Schmitt takes pain to make clear

>>24697451 (OP)
>Nietzsche argued that there are no truths, only interpretations
Did he even say this? I remember pretty distinctly that in Beyond Good and Evil he described useful lies and harmful truths, which implies he believes truth does actually exist. And his point in that part is that truth is not necessarily the best or most valuable criterion for judging ideas.

>>24697538
>Muslims hate American freedom
Didn’t realize it was still 2001

>>24697451 (OP)
>>“There are philosophers who have repudiated the goal of truth -- Nietzsche, for example, who argued that there are no truths, only interpretations. But you need only ask yourself whether what Nietzsche says is true, to realize how paradoxical it is.
Stopped reading here. Pseud.
>>Nietzsche had some natural talent for sarcasm: he could sneer, though he could not laugh; but there is always something bodiless and without weight in his satire, simply because it has not any mass of common morality behind it.
>common morality
Fucking lol
>>Nietzsche himself has become a kind of idol. Despite his antagonism towards democracy and mass culture, despite his unashamedly racist attack on the Germans and all things German, despite his advocacy of ‘health’ and strength against the ‘sickness’ of compassion, despite his contempt for socialists, vegetarians, feminists and women generally – despite committing every sin condemned by the morality of ‘political correctness’,
Yeah Nietzsche was based, we get it, also lmaoing at "racist attack on the Germans" Fucking filtered
>>Nietzsche despises universal love; I feel it the motive power to all that I desire as regards the world.
What a faggot. Nietzsche remains undefeated

>>24703137
hey look i can do low-effort bait replies too!

>>24697451 (OP)
>racist attack on the Germans and all things German
Why is no one capable of understanding when Nietzsche's being ironic and semi-ironic? This is like when retards who both want him to be politically correct or who hate him claim that he "proposed an interpreeding program between germans and jews." It's the funniest shit ever that pseuds are still being tricked by him 150 years later

People keep memeing about Dawkins and Nietzsche, but wouldn't it make sense to view Rand as the perfection of Nietzsche?

>>24697451 (OP)
All retarded.
As an aside, Nietzsche did not die of syphilis or aids or whatever fraudsters think. He had a congenital neurological disorder called CADASIL that killed his father and his brother. Despite this, he hiked mountains and worked tirelessly.
>>24698028
>Nietzsche feels love isn't nice and posits vulgar lust for power as the highest ideal
This is not right. Nietzsche concerned himself with what IS rather than what should be, so he would not say lust for power is itself an ideal, but rather than the powerful are the only who can enact their ideal, and what that ideal is depends on the man. This is why Nietzsche was a relativist. Also, Nietzsche liked the troubadours, so it is not like he unilaterally dismissed love -- the love praised by the Provencals was an expression of a free spirit.
>this lust for power is fallen man's natural state and is today widely championed (tacitly or explicitly) by pop culture.
This is completely wrong. All of (every) society is (always) built around curbing the appearance of great men. Schoolmarm scolding is everywhere; modern stories end with a protagonist accepting his place in the world.
Acting like a nigger is not nietzscheanism. Tate and colleagues are REACTING to a scolding society by setting themselves up in the complete opposite direction. The uberman is apathetic to societal standards.

>>24704665
>only pretending to be retarded!

>>24704709
He said Beyond Good and Evil is love

>>24704182
if you need to ask you are too stupid to understand the answer, sorry

>>24704677
rand and dawkins are vulgar

nietzsche was a genius but some of his main ideas are fundamentally unsound

>>24704677
Rand was a dogmatic subscriber to naïve realism, she actually considered that the cornerstone of her entire philosophy, the epistemology of naïve realism. How do you square that with Nietzsche’s On Truth and Lies in a Nonmoral sense?

>>24700947
What I understood from this is that chriggers are mentally ill and cannot see a simple illustration of a German boy vs a jewish one to showcase racial differences for what it is and can only understand the world in jewish terms.

>>24704169
It's one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

>>24704501
in internet relay chat he says this in essay 3 of genealogy