Thread 24704007

a lot of the hate for trans people comes from how much they are pushed. this includes in publishing. trans artists, of any kind, seem to be categorically mediocre and shallow. trans-focused media also always seems to be a surface level, zero depth reflection of the trans experience. so the things getting pushed are self-absorbed and uninteresting fluff at best and narcissistic and actively damaging slop at worst

but other kinds of lgbtq people have made incredible art in the past. sappho, woolf, proust, dickinson, and even plato are part of that group. so it doesn't seem like having an alternative lifestyle bars you from being literary

so what is the problem? are trans people capable of producing art, and has there been any genuine art created by trans people that has stood the test of time? is the modern trans author a phenomenon brought by a problem with the publishing industry, or the nature of today's trans socialization, or some other issue? or are trans people categorically flawed in a way that prevents them from producing real art - and if so, what is this flaw?

i'm genuinely curious about your viewpoints on this because it seems like all trans writers are relatively modern and solely focused on identity, which is not something that you often see other gay people do

Brains damaged by porn, dulls creativity and critical thinking

>>24704007 (OP)
Trans people are porn addicted perverts which is how they ended up like that in the first place so, no.

Some genres *require* you to have been queered to participate. Beethoven was an egg.

>>24704007 (OP)
Woolfe V 1928 Orlando: A Biography

They lack the divine feminine and are only a mere imitation of it in a attempt to sap other's life force and energy to their vile sense of self beauty that they attempt to push by tricking themselves into femininity. All trans woman are ultimately very male in their mindset and have amongst some of the most disgusting male archetypes possible. They can't write because they focus too much on their own flawed sense of self aggrandising and mimicry. Woman can write really well if they are blessed by tragedy, misery and spitefulness but not in their natural state, the only moderatly decent trans writer I read was some ftm (probably as a rape trauma response) from I think Germany or some of those decrepit anti human nordic places, she wrote some very gorey and disgusting child rape fantasies and trauma poems, all very visceral, too much for a woman. Can't recall her name right now but im sure someone here can. The trans "girl" is too focused on his own sexual interests to write anything of worth, in fact they make for really great company for those in need of being served, complimented and bossing others around with little to no backlash since they often times don't really enjoy thinking much to acquire proper will to power for decision making is seen as a masculine trait, it mostly is though. They are not like woman they don't have a soul. Dick puppets.

>24704007
>Plato was an alphabet soup member
0/10 bait
With that aside, allow me to answer your question with another question. Do you consider Hemingway's work to be art? If you do, then he should count. Since its pretty well known by this point he was a repressing tranny and his ultra macho persona was just him coping. Hell he even had the same end the average tranny has.

Most people hung up on labels are incapable of producing art of any worth, this includes labels like democrat, republican, reddit, anon, trans, straight, etc. The labels are important to art but if you want to use them in art, you need to be able to see the labels for what they are and not just your own myopic view of them; you need to be able to see how retarded your relation to such labels is. Most who are hung up on labels are not capable of this sort of introspection.

>>24704007 (OP)
Hard to imagine.

In my experience they make a lot of art. It's all kind of sickly; it's funny how the stuff they make seems to be the only thing that dutifully followed the swirl of western culture all the way down the toilet and deep into the sewers.

>>24704042
is this a shitpost or real

>>24704051
i tried looking into orlando but neither woolfe nor her muse seemed to actually be trans. i'm going to give it a read but right now it seems like it's just using a transition as a lens to explore womanhood in her time (but then again i haven't read the fucking book)

>>24704054
i'll get to you in a second, probably

>>24704064
>0/10 bait
my bad on that one, i tried to confirm that my other authors were actually gay and got surprised when plato was mentioned. should've looked into that one more instead of being shocked

>Do you consider Hemingway's work to be art?
i never cared for him but for the sake of argument, sure

>If you do, then he should count.
>Since its pretty well known by this point he was a repressing tranny and his ultra macho persona was just him coping
i mean, tons of trannies online cope by claiming all kinds of figures were trans. granted, hemingway is more likely than most of those cases to be repressed tranny, but it still doesn't feel like it's an actual match.

but it kind of supports one of my theories, which is that it's the transition process, not being trans itself, that kills the literary and artistic capabilites. i think repressors are more likely to be artistic than average people but transitioned trans people are less so

my other theory is what the next anon i'm replying to is saying

>>24704067
first off, i agree with you. i just feel like there's got to be some trans people out there that aren't hung up on labels, and those people still haven't made any decent art. where are they? how is it that of all the flavors of queer, only trans people haven't made anything that has lived on beyond them?

>>24704154
>is this a shitpost or real
I'm presenting three generations of Breakcore greats in the Format of Sino-Soviet "Reducing Beard Sizes". What the fuck do you think cunt?

Wendy Carlos
Liza'n'Eliaz
Sewerslvt.

Also might want to look into Macintosh+'s Floral Shoppe which obeys the compositional rules of breakcore, if not the expected end results.

>>24704042
Please don't denigrate Beethoven by stating that.

>>24704154
>i tried looking into orlando but neither woolfe
Woolfe's structuration of gender repeatedly shows her to be eggy. Orlando is a transfantasy of hyperstition.

>>24704168
>Please don't denigrate Beethoven by stating that.
If anything I'm denegrating Wendy by comparing her to that mere pianist. You have to cut the sounding board off.

>>24704154
>i just feel like there's got to be some trans people out there that aren't hung up on labels
I am sure there are but it is more than just not being hung up on labels, also have to have the interest in art. Lots of people are not hung up on labels, most of them have no interest in creating art.

But the whole trans movement is still young and the young are by definition, hung up on labels.

>>24704007 (OP)
>other kinds of lgbtq people have made incredible art in the past
Probably because loving the same sex is widely different from wasting tens of thousands of dollars on invasive surgeries and hormone injections and screeching at anyone who doesn't play pretend with you

>>24704007 (OP)
the thing to understand is that trannies are incredibly narcissistic. like 60% meet the diagnostic criteria for npd, which is mind-boggling; no wonder every community they invade becomes hell. of course their artistic output would be superficial and perfunctory since narcissists are hollow unpersons that can only deal with appearances. the troon's writing does not exist to be read, it's a prop to allow him to convince everyone including himself that he's a writer. it's part of a costume and as fake as his "femininity."

but you are going to have a hard time making sense of this or anything else if you believe braindead shit like "plato was lgbt." he could have sucked every cock in greece ten times over and he still wouldn't be "lgbt." don't be fucking retarded.

>>24704333
Most blokes I meet who were born with a clit pass entirely, completely and don't make a fuss. I mostly only discover it when I'm turning him into yet another one of my bitch boys and sorting them by cock length to humiliate them.

>>24704356
transmen are always short, weirdly hirsute, and stand too fucking close when they talk to you.

>>24704356
what does your retarded freak fetishist post have to do with mine

>>24704380
You don't pass.

>>24704365
>transmen are always short, weirdly hirsute, and stand too fucking close when they talk to you.
So are the Maltese.

>>24704404
i actually know a chick who's parents are from malta. tremendous knockers.

>>24704443
>i actually know a chick who's parents are from malta. tremendous knockers.
But she's short, hirsute, and stands too close, am I right?

>>24704154
>repressors tend to be more artistic than average
Incorrect, repressors are the ONLY ones of those groups that can be artistic.
This is true to any outcast btw, only those who are/were oppressed can become artist.
This is because acceptance and worse still encouragement leads them to passivity, conformity and mediocrity. Why do you think modern alphabet soup people can't create anything worthwhile?

>>24704007 (OP)
They can make music, other art forms are too Apollonian for them.

>>24704007 (OP)
Other than cartoon porn? No lol.

>>24704463
>They can make music, other art forms are too Apollonian for them.
Well, that's also true of cis-women.

>>24704183
Typical of your ilk

>>24704486
They can freely channel their masculine energies while MtF transsexuals are all about repressing that.

I dont have any problems with trans people despite the fact that I think that "gender dysphoria" is just made up nonsense by capitalists to extract more money from the working class, but I digress. Trans people are just like any others, so I dont see why they couldn't create art. They create less because there is less of them.

>>24704007 (OP)
>or are trans people categorically flawed in a way that prevents them from producing real art - and if so, what is this flaw?
They're mentally ill.
To create art, of any kind - even some shitty King tier novel - you have to a have a more or less sane mind to write coherently. And it must be coupled with the ability to concentrate and good work ethic. Do you really think delusional people with impulsivity issues and mood disorders are suitable for art?
Look at music, the area where trannies seem dominant. The styles they dominate are the -core genres, which is the autistic retard area of music, since they're fast and loud with just noise thrown upon noise. No sense of composition. No storytelling. Breakcore, for example, is just erratic amen break drums on a fast and violent beat. The sound of a chaotic mind, dissociated, split, unable to reconcile multiple fragments of scattered perceptions.
The weird insistence that trannies are persecuted and the skill of turning every interaction into some oppression olympics points to paranoid delusions. Couple that with late adolescent advent of trannyism, and you get something that fits the clinical pattern of schizophrenia where the first psychotic break happens in late adolescence.
So, how can you expect a crypto schizo, that we must not call a schizo because that's oppression, who has cognitive and mood issues, to write anything coherent and beautiful. Wherever trannies are in the art world, they create only chaotic, aggressive, and very deeply puerile compositions. It's not art. It's just an infant smearing shit on walls.
>>24704042
>Beethoven
Unlikely.
Historically, troons have bvelonged to marginalized religious communities, like the Galli, the Hijra, the Mesopotamian prostitute society. Which is another way to say that they were mentally ill segregated into a designated cult. Surprisingly, the behaviour of these ancient groups parallels closely that of modern trannies.
In Western Society, the only place in Beethoven age where you'd have found a troon would be the asylum. Troons were considered dangerously mentally ill until the LGBT decided to fight for their shitty rights.

>>24704457
>repressors are the ONLY ones of those groups that can be artistic
that's what i meant, compared to average meant compared to the average person not the average trans person

I don't know man. I see them try, especially in nerdy music genres like breakcore or electro, but rarely succeed. Earlier today I was watching a music production tutorial narrated by some dude on the genital spectrum and xin sounded like zye was going to break down and cry anytime.

>>24704154
Anon it's been more than a second...
:(

arca

>>24704007 (OP)
They're capable of making my dick hard and not much else

>>24704007 (OP)
I liked "I Saw the TV Glow"

I also like the music they make lol

I suppose from the get-go I would be cautious of accepting the notion that transsexuals can be otherwise regular people, however afflicted by this one small quirk. "Regular people" of course being itself a hard concept to grasp, let alone elaborate on, but in my mind the Regular person ought not have his or her ideas, perceptions and to a degree identity shaped by things they read on the internet (of course I am self aware when claiming this). As it turned out, these absurd online types of behavior infiltrated most aspects of real life. There are children who've grown up to talk with the weird cadence of an algorithm-guided tiktok personality because that's the speech they've listened to the most.
All this to say, I find it hard to believe that the Regular person would grow up to realize independent of everything that they're indeed born in the wrong body. Not to say that this phenomenon hasn't been noticed throughout history, but they were, let's say "more clearly" mentally ill in some way or another. Some such cases might still exist today, but the bulk of transsexuals have to be typical vulnerable souls, bitter, angry, upset, who seek to take revenge on the world itself by refusing some of the most fundamental of truths- informed by a mix of the hatred that they receive and spew online, and weird pornography.
A person lost to destruction to such a degree has no desire to create, and if it does, what they end up creating is expression of more vile bitterness. Also worth noting, they haven't acquired the skill to create, for knowledge of beauty and good are required to that end, and they actively seem to seek to hide from those.

>>24704007 (OP)
Garielle (formerly Gary) Lutz is one of the more critically acclaimed short story writers of late and trooned out recently. Maybe he doesn't count because he wrote most of his work while living as a man. Haven't read him though

>>24704463
>They can make music
Tranny noises aren't music.

>>24705449
is a faggot

>>24705818
>critically acclaimed
isn't saying much at all. I've read this https://www.thedriftmag.com/four-stories/ just now and struggle to find anything worth noting. A strange mix of McCarthy and Joyce as far as the prose goes, and no substance within the story itself. Though that might just be contemporary writing. I dread and hate

>>24705903
this replies to this>>24705878

No. Women can’t make art.

I like Jan Morris

>>24704007 (OP)
The problem isn't trans people but the art that's being pushed:
For the high institutionally backed queer art, a lot of people think it's the avant-guarde. It creates, as often with high value art, an echo chamber of hyper-socialized socialites who think only in queer art.

And for pop art, big institutions as Disney or streaming companies have been stuck in an economic model of cultural offer and demand from the 2010s. And they are slow to realign with "real" cultural demand, because fanatics have been put in positions of (managerial) power.

Queer transgressive art is cool, John Waters is cool. But it sure as hell isn't avant-garde-robe even that transgressive anymore

>>24704167
>>24705777
yeah i'm aware of musicians and movie makers, gamedevs too, but i'm looking for either boundary pushing trans people or critically acclaimed trans writers. idk much about music but it seems like music/film/games have a lower barrier to entry, kinda fitting in line with what >>24704463 and >>24704679 are implying here

>>24705918
confusingly based

>>24705950
>The problem isn't trans people but the art that's being pushed
this was my initial suspicion, and it's true about queer art in general. but if you look back through history, every variety of queer person *except* for trannies has made good art. every race seems to have good art and every religion seems to have good art.

trannies seem to be the only group that have nothing. repressors have made good art. crossdressers and other adjacent labels have made good art. but not trans people.

makes me wonder if there's something uniquely fucked up about trans people, or if because the process of transition apparently involves so much self-reflection and questioning that there's nothing left to use for

or maybe the trans authors were just hiding to avoid being called mentally ill or something, since there's other trans figures in other areas historically. just not in literature

>>24705933
>>24705878
i'll check them out, thanks

There are very specific kinds of queer art being published and if you step away from their image of a Trans Person you're not likely to have your work accepted. Anything truly transgressive is bound to be met with backlash and an attempt to push us back to our cute little explorations of "being born in the wrong body" or some other marketable bullshit.

Our range of acceptable expression is limited, which makes trans artists focus on these popular tropes and play them up to have a better chance of survival, until the new generations of writers don't even feel like they're being forced to do it. Voila.

>>24704679
>Do you really think delusional people with impulsivity issues and mood disorders are suitable for art?
There have been a couple to be fair lol

>>24705974
Idk bc I'm an uncultured swine. Maybe so are you on the topic of trans art. The only trans artist I know is a former friend of mine and what she does is really damn good. I don't know why other trans artists couldn't be even greater.

>>24705976
We're saying the same thing >>24705950

>>24705971
>looking for either boundary pushing trans people or critically acclaimed trans writers
Tbf being trans is a newer phenomenon, if being trans continues to be a thing, I think that there will eventually be a "trans literary tradition" in the same way that there's a black literary tradition or a feminist literary tradition, if that makes sense.

>>24705982
Yeah, I agree with your point about popular art. You can see people in literary circles bucking the tenderness trend (the reception to that new Ocean Vuong novel, for one) but the popular view of queer art is still in the same place, I fear. It's just stereotyping us in a positive way instead of a negative one.

I'm a trans writer working on a genre novel that (at least to me) has very little to do with said topic, and I fear that to potential publishers this'll just be a potential marketing hindrance. Pseudonym time?

>>24704007 (OP)

There is absolutely nothing mentally wrong with homosexuality. It has been commonly practiced throughout history with most societies creating de-facto "safe spaces" for the gays like the Navy or various other social clubs. They have existed quietly and discreetly through time with some periods and societies being more open to it than others. The Catholic Church to this day is a sanctuary for homosexuality and has created some of the greatest art on earth.

Modern "Trans" culture is a collection of low IQ individuals that aren't capable of independent thought who get so wrapped up in the subculture they start lopping off parts of their body. Maybe 1 in every 500 "trans" people are genuine in their transition.

While not outright incapable it is highly unlikely anything of worth would be created by these individuals.

>>24704007 (OP)
Trannies aren't people and the only thing of merit they're capable of producing is their own premature corpse.

>>24705990
>Pseudonym time?
I'd really recommend to try to play with your queerness to get published. But in that case you'll have to assume trivial interpretations and maybe an unwanted main audience

>>24704007 (OP)
Yes, Lewis Carroll and L Frank Baum would have been trans if born in the modern era

>>24704007 (OP)
durrrr why doesn't 0.00001% of the population make much art? the answer to that question is a lot more simple than you may think.

i think the kind of trans person who could make good art is the same kind that would not make it in the literary establishment, because trans people naturally make pretty bizarre and niche art if you look at what they do in video games or music. doubly so because the literary establishment is so networking heavy and exclusive.

>>24706114
Would you have been not a waste of oxygen had you been born a decade earlier?

>>24705898
https://youtube.com/watch?v=N6-svj5HK9o
Keep seething. Trans artists are making the greatest art of this generation.

>>24706492
You NEED to kill yourself

holy shit a tranny just flew over my house

>>24706110
>play with your queerness
what does this mean

>>24706492
I realize it's an extremely low bar these days, but no. Also, ywnbaw.

>>24706492
nigger this is trash, and I say it as another tranny

You people think about trannies more than trannies think about trannies. It’s strange.

>>24704007 (OP)
>but other kinds of lgbtq people have made incredible art in the past. sappho, woolf, proust, dickinson, and even plato are part of that group. so it doesn't seem like having an alternative lifestyle bars you from being literary
God, you people are fucking retarded. This contemporary equalization of all non-straight peoples as somehow belonging to the LGBTQ+whatever umbrella is a fallacy. LGBTQ isn't some eternal essence, but a modern community, subculture and political identity. It isn't just a descriptor of orientation, but a consciously constructed movement with its own institutions and discourse, much of it post-Stonewall. To retroactively badge these people as "LGBTQ icons" or whatever is pure anachronism.

>>24706556
Oh, you'd be surprised

>>24706556
What do you mean, 'you people'?

>>24706559
Gay people claiming Tchaikovsky or whatever, as if he even remotely belonged to their 'culture', are just being silly. He was a 19th century Russian composer, not some mascot for 21st century degenerate faggotry.

>>24704007 (OP)
They tend to follow the normal trajectory of a quality drop as troonhood increases. There's nothing about them intrinsically which rules it out, but being trans is such an all consuming preoccupation that nothing else of any worth can be produced.

Imagine if you will: you wake up on day a realize that need to look, talk and act Chinese at all times and in all places (and be received as such by everyone you encounter) - or else you'll get a strong compulsion to rope yourself.

There is no such thing as "trans" people.
People who think they are "trans" are pathologically deluded.

There is no such thing as "depressed" people.
People who think they are "depressed" are pathologically deluded.

>>24704007 (OP)
SOPHIE is pretty great music at least

>>24706618
No, it is shit.

>>24704007 (OP)
>so what is the problem?
simple: their whole identity revolves around being trans
that's also the problem with modern (industrially produced, late 20th century) gay people: their whole identity revolves around sucking cock and taking it up the ass
gay people before WW2 actually made art... and not the "degenerate art" kind of art

tl;dr art needs you to be concerned with millions of things and at the same time focus on actually working (making the art)... trans & gay & criminal & communist etc. people focus only on one thing: how to fuck you over, either literally or metaphorically

>>24706620
I think it is great

>>24706624
my opinion > your opinion

bumping because i want to reply to some anons in detail later

>>24706559
>>24706595
Good points.

aw man i didn't have the time

>>24706622
>gay people before WW2 actually made art... and not the "degenerate art" kind of art
There are plenty of gays working in "creative" fields but it's not necessarily as visible as you think. More like actors who you wouldn't necessarily know are gay and high-end fashion designers. That's just not usually the kind of thing that you, a poster on 4chan, is going to be interested in.

>>24705987
>Tbf being trans is a newer phenomenon
Right but the feeling of transness has existed for many years, but i can't find any writers that actively embrace that feeling in the same way that modern trans people do

>>24705990
good luck with your novel, anon

>>24706132
0.00001% over many centuries anon (though i guess your point still stands)

>>24706140
this kind of makes sense, trans artists (for all the pushing by mainstream bodies) only ever seem to be good when independent. otherwise they are just propaganda machines. ofc i don't actually know all the trans artists but that's the impression i get

>>24706559
i use lgbtq as the labels here, not the modern movement, it just seemed easier than writing 'but gay people and bi people and queer people and...'

>>24708879
got any cool examples of gay creatives whose work doesn't revolve around their gayness? i'm not saying they should never talk about it ever, but i'm specifically looking for people who don't use it as their primary theme all the time

>>24704007 (OP)
Anybody is capable of art and they can get better by practice. It's not some sacred thing only chosen ones can do. If you can think of things as beautiful, you can try to recreate it.

>>24709125
i would hope so, i'm just wondering why history seems to suggest otherwise about trans people

>>24709125
>It's not some sacred thing only chosen ones can do
I'm afraid it is.

>>24709125
anybody can do art as a cute little hobby but only the chosen ones make any kind of lasting impact on the world. oh wow you worked hard for ten years to get from a to b? well the real guy started at c and has since ran out of letters.

>>24704042
>>24704167
This is genuinely one of the most pointless, esoteric image macros I think I have ever seen on this website. I really hope you didn't spend more than like 5 minutes making it. I don't even mean this in a rude way, but the fact you woke up one day, was like "hmm I'm going to make breakcore as some random socialist beard painting" (and then expect people to understand it, no less) is almost a surefire sign that you're massively autistic.

>>24708879
>More like actors who you wouldn't necessarily know are gay
all male actors are gay, what are we even talking about? and I thought the discussion was about people making art, not actors

>and high-end fashion designers
those were notoriously gay even back before the "industrially produced faggot" era...

>That's just not usually the kind of thing that you, a poster on 4chan, is going to be interested in
you are insane

>>24704007 (OP)
i don’t recall reading anything by a trans author and can’t speak on that matter. there are many wonderful trans musicians though

>>24704007 (OP)
I don't know if you call it art exactly but contrapoints' videos are pretty great. If it's not art then it's trans philosophy I guess.

>>24704054
Agree with troons being disgustingly male, but this divine feminine thing doesnt exist. Stop making up metaphysical principles that aren't properly rooted in any tradition, it makes you sound shallow while trying to sound profound.

Minakami yuki doesn't have anything to do with your post, either.

Lastly, you're a philistine

>>24710642
>contrapoints
is she still doing youtube?
i always thought she was gorgeous. i would let her cum in my mouth any time.

>>24709099
>got any cool examples of gay creatives whose work doesn't revolve around their gayness?
literally all of them
they know they live in a world where most people are not gay and they have to create things for non gay people as well as gay people

this thread is fucking stupid. do you all live under a rock or something

>>24710662
>she

>>24710662
Yeah but she really prides herself on doing quality work so we're lucky to get a video once a year. Her last one on conspiracies was just okay but kinda bland. The one before that on Twilight was great though.

She has an unlisted playlist of videos which are about an hour long on random topics her patreon pays for. They come out monthly and are lower equality but still really well edited and thoughtful. She just did one on Camille Paglia in fact and was quite open to what she had to say even though Paglia has some pretty complex takes on trans people.

>>24710686
>she

>>24710686
>>24710662
hmm, i guess i hadn't really considered alternative 'writing' jobs

and i guess exclusively looking for canonical works excludes authors with equal amounts of talent whose message probably wasn't in line with what people wanted... which would be most trans people, lmao, so maybe that's why there aren't any trans writers that have persevered

>>24710662
I would figure out a way to impregnate her.

>>24704007 (OP)
This is a stupid question because Trans people aren't actually real. They're either a man or a women and both a man and a women are capable of producing art.

The term Trans is pointless here regardless if they believe themselves to be a trans man or trans women.

>>24704007 (OP)
Trannies are very active in electronic music, but everything they make is tainted in their faux-cybernetic, terminally online reddit nihilist aesthetic without exception. They are driven, but driving towards the bottom and intending to drag down everyone else with them.

>>24704007 (OP)
I don't know about trannies, but I read a cyberpunk book by an intersex person called the Fortunate Fall and it was pretty good, if a bit messy with its pacing.

>>24705950
>John Waters is cool
Passively watching a bunch of self-destructive freaks who kill small animals and eat shit is the opposite of cool. I can have a similar experience staring into a toilet bowl or going to the ER.

>>24711806
>They are driven, but driving towards the bottom
is that a double entendre

>>24710662
HONtrapoints

>>24704007 (OP)
no, they're trannies because they've been convinced by wholly manufactured rhetoric, they are not themselves, they are creatures of the (((state))) and art must be at least somewhat idiosyncratic. also all tranny "art" is about being a faggot, they're all solely identitarians

>>24710647
Can't I like just make things and abstractions in my head for fun, im not trying to seem particularly profound I just like sounding stupid with big claims about the nature of man I shouldnt be allowed to make

>>24712429
what do you mean by this

>>24711816
i'll check it out, thanks anon

>>24709099
>i use lgbtq as the labels here, not the modern movement, it just seemed easier than writing 'but gay people and bi people and queer people and...'
That's the issue. LGBTQ isn't just a neutral label for non-straight people and you can't retroactively strip the word of all that baggage and pretend it's just a convenient shorthand. Sappho or Tchaikovsky weren't LGBTQ in any sense of the word, because the word itself carries an entire cultural framework with it, it's anachronistic.

>>24713293
then how would you describe Sappho or Tchaikovsky if not lgbt

I'm writing the next great absurdist masterpiece. I won't be retarded enough to advertise that I'm a tranny to the public though.

>>24713919
>Sappho was lgbt
>Tchaikovsky was lgbt
yes and Jefferson was a Trump voter
Tchaikovsky was a Trump voter too, why not?

this is what you leftists (including women, career criminals etc.) don't understand: if you cheapen words and ideas so you can afford them, they will be worth last than a shit in the middle of the street

>>24716045
>Sappho was LGBT
>yes and Jefferson was a Trump voter
Faggot are you retarded? Sappho was a lezbo it's her entire fucking deal lmao

>>24715759
based, tell us a little more!

>>24716045
>Trump voter
>lgbt

how are those remotely the same thing, anon

>>24713919
>>24716204
Yes, a lesbian. Not part of the LGBT. The LGBT umbrella is both a contemporary label and a political movement that means a whole lot more than just homosexual or lesbian, the letters are imbued with the meaning of the intersectional theory from which they sprung. For example Ernst Röhm was a homosexual man yet he cannot be considered LGBT, obviously. You cannot apply that label to anyone that existed before the time the term (and the dogma associated with it) was established.

>>24716593
Just thought I'd add I am not the anon you were before discussing with, but he is right.

>>24716204
>>24716567
What he means is that the political term LGBT is just as chronologically foreign and anachronistic to a person of the past as Donald Trump and his politics are to a person of the past. Did you get lost on the way to your containment board? People here are usually supposed to be able to read, and importantly to comprehend what they read.

>>24716593
>LGBT is a modern contemporary thing they were homosexuals that's different
nta but I mean, sure, I guess this is true, I just think it's mostly unimportant and incredibly pedantic. This is the kind of weaseling someone does when they want to distinguish between le heckin based homosexuals and le heckin cringe faggots for dumb /pol/ reasons

>>24716602
>incredibly pedantic
Sure, but when talking about history it is important to be. We must be clear in the terms we use to categorise the people of the past, and it is important that we don't misinterpret the past or attempt to make it fit with our contemporary political views.
>to distinguish between le heckin based homosexuals
Whether or not they were "based" is irrelevant; they are not alive today to tell you what they think of the politics of said group and thus you cannot posthumously include them as a part of it. There is a major distinction even contemporarily between homosexuals, lesbians, transgender, and intersex people that are living today that do not like the term and the doctrine that comes along with it.

>>24716602
Maybe a better analogy would be to say that is equivalent to calling Malcolm X a member of BLM. After all, he was black and presumably black "lives" mattered a great deal to him. You see?

>>24704007 (OP)
all artists are trans

>>24716593
>>24716601
yeah lgbt isn't a political term though, you're confusing it with being an activist when that is not the case. people refer to caitlyn jenner and milo yiannopoulos as lgbt all the time

>Did you get lost on the way to your containment board? People here are usually supposed to be able to read, and importantly to comprehend what they read.
which is why the anon that brought this up confuses me, he's automatically assuming a political stance when it's clear that i'm using it as a descriptor of identity

>>24716623
yeah, there's some separation that'll make this clearer. he was black, and using that to call him blm is disingenuous even if you can draw clear parallels

but calling him a poc or a bipoc is not. there's no ideology inherent to the term, you're just adding on context that doesn't exist. if i wanted to make a point about him, mlk, gandhi, and malala together, i could say poc figures instead of 'black and south asian figures'. it would be no different than saying non-white (and actually better because it's not as ambiguous), and it would not be inherently political despite it's usage today.

the fact that the anon's only exposure to the term 'lgbt' has probably only been activist discourse doesn't change the fact that it's a descriptor and not inherently political

>>24716664
>all worthy artists are trans who are anti-LGBT and would only have intercourse with the sex opposite of theirs, with very few exceptions that just serve to confirm the rule
FTFY cowboy, you're ready to roll!

Idk about art but theres a lot of troons in programming/coding

>>24716602
it's not "pedantic" to demand a basic understanding of history when discussing historical personages, or even just an appreciation that "the past" is distinct from the present at all. "sappho was lgbt" is helpless brainrot. blame it on /pol/ all you want but nobody with a three-digit iq will take you seriously when you say shit like that.

>>24716677
>i'm using it as a descriptor of identity
identity that didn't exist at the time, hence the anachronism. also you yourself are very much "being an activist" when you say shit like this. you are working to create the false impression that a political movement from the 1990s is actually timeless and that it possesses some kind of privileged understanding of and the right to speak for historical persons who in fact would find the movement alien and revolting.

>>24716684
I've noticed it too
it follows a pattern of fleeing from reality, doesn't it? I bet a large fraction of a stock market bets on "we keep their assholes massaged and they'll do whatever we tell them in exchange for money they'll spend on troonlogically obvious things we have a controlling stake in"
like a company store but for "non-heterosexuals"

>>24716811
I have no real idea why this is the case but they are extremely good at programming, maybe it's the abstract thinking that makes them lean outside gender norms. Just look at Empress who is the only one on the net who can crack any vidya and he/she is trooned out.
Iirc Uncle Ted was contemplating trooning out too because he was literally too smart for everyone

>>24716664
>meme "avant garde" artists pushed by glowies says retarded shit
Yawn

>>24716734
>the right to speak for historical persons who in fact would find the movement alien and revolting
NTA but omg are you one of those fags who wants to get rid of the T in LGBT? Omg lmao this is like seeing an endangered animal out in the wild rubbing up against the hunter's ammo box because he thinks if he loves it enough it won't hurt him

>>24717112
he probably said this before the CIA existed.
orson welles said something similar

>>24717120
christ but you're stupid and self-absorbed. no, i don't want anything to do with any subset of you freaks.

>>24717158
>I'm not a fag! I'M NOT! I JUST TALK LIKE ONE OKAY YOU'RE ALL FREAKS
Kek even if you accept yourself they'll never accept you and you know it <3

>>24717160
i am "them" you fucking retard.

>>24704007 (OP)
Probably most people can't make good art, trannies are a tiny number of people, small sample size=shit art

>>24718214
>small sample size=shit art
riddle me this, batman, why aren't the Chinese and Indians making world-defining art then? they have been roughly 1/3 of world population for at least a few hundred years now

>>24704007 (OP)
I've heard The Matrix is pretty good.

>>24718789
isn't it world-defining for chinese and indians though

robert musil was an egg and she made some pretty great stuff

>>24717123
>He thinks glowies started with the CIA
lol, lmao even
>Orson Welles
HAHAHAHA

>>24717120
NTA but you are an incredibly disingenuous person. Multiple anons have deconstructed why applying those terms to the past is not accurate and your bizarre characterisations of people are indicicative of you belonging to this crazed cult and are completely unable to see anything as belonging outside of your incredibly narrow view of history and of people in general. Go back to twitter where you belong and you can make your quippy feminine insults for people you don't agree with.

>>24719875
if it were, they wouldn't have adopted communism (a western disease) respectively the english language
look at their history, if they accumulated culture through art it would have stabilized their countries... yet they had internal wars for millennia, until white man got there

>>24720153
what the fuck

how have i never heard of musil before lmao

it seems like they are only capable of murdering people but they will get what they deserve, this will only radicalize the right