Thread 24704007

a lot of the hate for trans people comes from how much they are pushed. this includes in publishing. trans artists, of any kind, seem to be categorically mediocre and shallow. trans-focused media also always seems to be a surface level, zero depth reflection of the trans experience. so the things getting pushed are self-absorbed and uninteresting fluff at best and narcissistic and actively damaging slop at worst

but other kinds of lgbtq people have made incredible art in the past. sappho, woolf, proust, dickinson, and even plato are part of that group. so it doesn't seem like having an alternative lifestyle bars you from being literary

so what is the problem? are trans people capable of producing art, and has there been any genuine art created by trans people that has stood the test of time? is the modern trans author a phenomenon brought by a problem with the publishing industry, or the nature of today's trans socialization, or some other issue? or are trans people categorically flawed in a way that prevents them from producing real art - and if so, what is this flaw?

i'm genuinely curious about your viewpoints on this because it seems like all trans writers are relatively modern and solely focused on identity, which is not something that you often see other gay people do

Brains damaged by porn, dulls creativity and critical thinking

>>24704007 (OP)
Trans people are porn addicted perverts which is how they ended up like that in the first place so, no.

Some genres *require* you to have been queered to participate. Beethoven was an egg.

>>24704007 (OP)
Woolfe V 1928 Orlando: A Biography

They lack the divine feminine and are only a mere imitation of it in a attempt to sap other's life force and energy to their vile sense of self beauty that they attempt to push by tricking themselves into femininity. All trans woman are ultimately very male in their mindset and have amongst some of the most disgusting male archetypes possible. They can't write because they focus too much on their own flawed sense of self aggrandising and mimicry. Woman can write really well if they are blessed by tragedy, misery and spitefulness but not in their natural state, the only moderatly decent trans writer I read was some ftm (probably as a rape trauma response) from I think Germany or some of those decrepit anti human nordic places, she wrote some very gorey and disgusting child rape fantasies and trauma poems, all very visceral, too much for a woman. Can't recall her name right now but im sure someone here can. The trans "girl" is too focused on his own sexual interests to write anything of worth, in fact they make for really great company for those in need of being served, complimented and bossing others around with little to no backlash since they often times don't really enjoy thinking much to acquire proper will to power for decision making is seen as a masculine trait, it mostly is though. They are not like woman they don't have a soul. Dick puppets.

>24704007
>Plato was an alphabet soup member
0/10 bait
With that aside, allow me to answer your question with another question. Do you consider Hemingway's work to be art? If you do, then he should count. Since its pretty well known by this point he was a repressing tranny and his ultra macho persona was just him coping. Hell he even had the same end the average tranny has.

Most people hung up on labels are incapable of producing art of any worth, this includes labels like democrat, republican, reddit, anon, trans, straight, etc. The labels are important to art but if you want to use them in art, you need to be able to see the labels for what they are and not just your own myopic view of them; you need to be able to see how retarded your relation to such labels is. Most who are hung up on labels are not capable of this sort of introspection.

>>24704007 (OP)
Hard to imagine.

In my experience they make a lot of art. It's all kind of sickly; it's funny how the stuff they make seems to be the only thing that dutifully followed the swirl of western culture all the way down the toilet and deep into the sewers.

>>24704042
is this a shitpost or real

>>24704051
i tried looking into orlando but neither woolfe nor her muse seemed to actually be trans. i'm going to give it a read but right now it seems like it's just using a transition as a lens to explore womanhood in her time (but then again i haven't read the fucking book)

>>24704054
i'll get to you in a second, probably

>>24704064
>0/10 bait
my bad on that one, i tried to confirm that my other authors were actually gay and got surprised when plato was mentioned. should've looked into that one more instead of being shocked

>Do you consider Hemingway's work to be art?
i never cared for him but for the sake of argument, sure

>If you do, then he should count.
>Since its pretty well known by this point he was a repressing tranny and his ultra macho persona was just him coping
i mean, tons of trannies online cope by claiming all kinds of figures were trans. granted, hemingway is more likely than most of those cases to be repressed tranny, but it still doesn't feel like it's an actual match.

but it kind of supports one of my theories, which is that it's the transition process, not being trans itself, that kills the literary and artistic capabilites. i think repressors are more likely to be artistic than average people but transitioned trans people are less so

my other theory is what the next anon i'm replying to is saying

>>24704067
first off, i agree with you. i just feel like there's got to be some trans people out there that aren't hung up on labels, and those people still haven't made any decent art. where are they? how is it that of all the flavors of queer, only trans people haven't made anything that has lived on beyond them?

>>24704154
>is this a shitpost or real
I'm presenting three generations of Breakcore greats in the Format of Sino-Soviet "Reducing Beard Sizes". What the fuck do you think cunt?

Wendy Carlos
Liza'n'Eliaz
Sewerslvt.

Also might want to look into Macintosh+'s Floral Shoppe which obeys the compositional rules of breakcore, if not the expected end results.

>>24704042
Please don't denigrate Beethoven by stating that.

>>24704154
>i tried looking into orlando but neither woolfe
Woolfe's structuration of gender repeatedly shows her to be eggy. Orlando is a transfantasy of hyperstition.

>>24704168
>Please don't denigrate Beethoven by stating that.
If anything I'm denegrating Wendy by comparing her to that mere pianist. You have to cut the sounding board off.

>>24704154
>i just feel like there's got to be some trans people out there that aren't hung up on labels
I am sure there are but it is more than just not being hung up on labels, also have to have the interest in art. Lots of people are not hung up on labels, most of them have no interest in creating art.

But the whole trans movement is still young and the young are by definition, hung up on labels.

>>24704007 (OP)
>other kinds of lgbtq people have made incredible art in the past
Probably because loving the same sex is widely different from wasting tens of thousands of dollars on invasive surgeries and hormone injections and screeching at anyone who doesn't play pretend with you

>>24704007 (OP)
the thing to understand is that trannies are incredibly narcissistic. like 60% meet the diagnostic criteria for npd, which is mind-boggling; no wonder every community they invade becomes hell. of course their artistic output would be superficial and perfunctory since narcissists are hollow unpersons that can only deal with appearances. the troon's writing does not exist to be read, it's a prop to allow him to convince everyone including himself that he's a writer. it's part of a costume and as fake as his "femininity."

but you are going to have a hard time making sense of this or anything else if you believe braindead shit like "plato was lgbt." he could have sucked every cock in greece ten times over and he still wouldn't be "lgbt." don't be fucking retarded.

>>24704333
Most blokes I meet who were born with a clit pass entirely, completely and don't make a fuss. I mostly only discover it when I'm turning him into yet another one of my bitch boys and sorting them by cock length to humiliate them.

>>24704356
transmen are always short, weirdly hirsute, and stand too fucking close when they talk to you.

>>24704356
what does your retarded freak fetishist post have to do with mine

>>24704380
You don't pass.

>>24704365
>transmen are always short, weirdly hirsute, and stand too fucking close when they talk to you.
So are the Maltese.

>>24704404
i actually know a chick who's parents are from malta. tremendous knockers.

>>24704443
>i actually know a chick who's parents are from malta. tremendous knockers.
But she's short, hirsute, and stands too close, am I right?

>>24704154
>repressors tend to be more artistic than average
Incorrect, repressors are the ONLY ones of those groups that can be artistic.
This is true to any outcast btw, only those who are/were oppressed can become artist.
This is because acceptance and worse still encouragement leads them to passivity, conformity and mediocrity. Why do you think modern alphabet soup people can't create anything worthwhile?

>>24704007 (OP)
They can make music, other art forms are too Apollonian for them.

>>24704007 (OP)
Other than cartoon porn? No lol.

>>24704463
>They can make music, other art forms are too Apollonian for them.
Well, that's also true of cis-women.

>>24704183
Typical of your ilk

>>24704486
They can freely channel their masculine energies while MtF transsexuals are all about repressing that.

I dont have any problems with trans people despite the fact that I think that "gender dysphoria" is just made up nonsense by capitalists to extract more money from the working class, but I digress. Trans people are just like any others, so I dont see why they couldn't create art. They create less because there is less of them.

>>24704007 (OP)
>or are trans people categorically flawed in a way that prevents them from producing real art - and if so, what is this flaw?
They're mentally ill.
To create art, of any kind - even some shitty King tier novel - you have to a have a more or less sane mind to write coherently. And it must be coupled with the ability to concentrate and good work ethic. Do you really think delusional people with impulsivity issues and mood disorders are suitable for art?
Look at music, the area where trannies seem dominant. The styles they dominate are the -core genres, which is the autistic retard area of music, since they're fast and loud with just noise thrown upon noise. No sense of composition. No storytelling. Breakcore, for example, is just erratic amen break drums on a fast and violent beat. The sound of a chaotic mind, dissociated, split, unable to reconcile multiple fragments of scattered perceptions.
The weird insistence that trannies are persecuted and the skill of turning every interaction into some oppression olympics points to paranoid delusions. Couple that with late adolescent advent of trannyism, and you get something that fits the clinical pattern of schizophrenia where the first psychotic break happens in late adolescence.
So, how can you expect a crypto schizo, that we must not call a schizo because that's oppression, who has cognitive and mood issues, to write anything coherent and beautiful. Wherever trannies are in the art world, they create only chaotic, aggressive, and very deeply puerile compositions. It's not art. It's just an infant smearing shit on walls.
>>24704042
>Beethoven
Unlikely.
Historically, troons have bvelonged to marginalized religious communities, like the Galli, the Hijra, the Mesopotamian prostitute society. Which is another way to say that they were mentally ill segregated into a designated cult. Surprisingly, the behaviour of these ancient groups parallels closely that of modern trannies.
In Western Society, the only place in Beethoven age where you'd have found a troon would be the asylum. Troons were considered dangerously mentally ill until the LGBT decided to fight for their shitty rights.

>>24704457
>repressors are the ONLY ones of those groups that can be artistic
that's what i meant, compared to average meant compared to the average person not the average trans person

I don't know man. I see them try, especially in nerdy music genres like breakcore or electro, but rarely succeed. Earlier today I was watching a music production tutorial narrated by some dude on the genital spectrum and xin sounded like zye was going to break down and cry anytime.

>>24704154
Anon it's been more than a second...
:(

arca

>>24704007 (OP)
They're capable of making my dick hard and not much else

>>24704007 (OP)
I liked "I Saw the TV Glow"

I also like the music they make lol

I suppose from the get-go I would be cautious of accepting the notion that transsexuals can be otherwise regular people, however afflicted by this one small quirk. "Regular people" of course being itself a hard concept to grasp, let alone elaborate on, but in my mind the Regular person ought not have his or her ideas, perceptions and to a degree identity shaped by things they read on the internet (of course I am self aware when claiming this). As it turned out, these absurd online types of behavior infiltrated most aspects of real life. There are children who've grown up to talk with the weird cadence of an algorithm-guided tiktok personality because that's the speech they've listened to the most.
All this to say, I find it hard to believe that the Regular person would grow up to realize independent of everything that they're indeed born in the wrong body. Not to say that this phenomenon hasn't been noticed throughout history, but they were, let's say "more clearly" mentally ill in some way or another. Some such cases might still exist today, but the bulk of transsexuals have to be typical vulnerable souls, bitter, angry, upset, who seek to take revenge on the world itself by refusing some of the most fundamental of truths- informed by a mix of the hatred that they receive and spew online, and weird pornography.
A person lost to destruction to such a degree has no desire to create, and if it does, what they end up creating is expression of more vile bitterness. Also worth noting, they haven't acquired the skill to create, for knowledge of beauty and good are required to that end, and they actively seem to seek to hide from those.

>>24704007 (OP)
Garielle (formerly Gary) Lutz is one of the more critically acclaimed short story writers of late and trooned out recently. Maybe he doesn't count because he wrote most of his work while living as a man. Haven't read him though

>>24704463
>They can make music
Tranny noises aren't music.

>>24705449
is a faggot

>>24705818
>critically acclaimed
isn't saying much at all. I've read this https://www.thedriftmag.com/four-stories/ just now and struggle to find anything worth noting. A strange mix of McCarthy and Joyce as far as the prose goes, and no substance within the story itself. Though that might just be contemporary writing. I dread and hate

>>24705903
this replies to this>>24705878

No. Women can’t make art.

I like Jan Morris

>>24704007 (OP)
The problem isn't trans people but the art that's being pushed:
For the high institutionally backed queer art, a lot of people think it's the avant-guarde. It creates, as often with high value art, an echo chamber of hyper-socialized socialites who think only in queer art.

And for pop art, big institutions as Disney or streaming companies have been stuck in an economic model of cultural offer and demand from the 2010s. And they are slow to realign with "real" cultural demand, because fanatics have been put in positions of (managerial) power.

Queer transgressive art is cool, John Waters is cool. But it sure as hell isn't avant-garde-robe even that transgressive anymore

>>24704167
>>24705777
yeah i'm aware of musicians and movie makers, gamedevs too, but i'm looking for either boundary pushing trans people or critically acclaimed trans writers. idk much about music but it seems like music/film/games have a lower barrier to entry, kinda fitting in line with what >>24704463 and >>24704679 are implying here

>>24705918
confusingly based

>>24705950
>The problem isn't trans people but the art that's being pushed
this was my initial suspicion, and it's true about queer art in general. but if you look back through history, every variety of queer person *except* for trannies has made good art. every race seems to have good art and every religion seems to have good art.

trannies seem to be the only group that have nothing. repressors have made good art. crossdressers and other adjacent labels have made good art. but not trans people.

makes me wonder if there's something uniquely fucked up about trans people, or if because the process of transition apparently involves so much self-reflection and questioning that there's nothing left to use for

or maybe the trans authors were just hiding to avoid being called mentally ill or something, since there's other trans figures in other areas historically. just not in literature

>>24705933
>>24705878
i'll check them out, thanks

There are very specific kinds of queer art being published and if you step away from their image of a Trans Person you're not likely to have your work accepted. Anything truly transgressive is bound to be met with backlash and an attempt to push us back to our cute little explorations of "being born in the wrong body" or some other marketable bullshit.

Our range of acceptable expression is limited, which makes trans artists focus on these popular tropes and play them up to have a better chance of survival, until the new generations of writers don't even feel like they're being forced to do it. Voila.

>>24704679
>Do you really think delusional people with impulsivity issues and mood disorders are suitable for art?
There have been a couple to be fair lol

>>24705974
Idk bc I'm an uncultured swine. Maybe so are you on the topic of trans art. The only trans artist I know is a former friend of mine and what she does is really damn good. I don't know why other trans artists couldn't be even greater.

>>24705976
We're saying the same thing >>24705950

>>24705971
>looking for either boundary pushing trans people or critically acclaimed trans writers
Tbf being trans is a newer phenomenon, if being trans continues to be a thing, I think that there will eventually be a "trans literary tradition" in the same way that there's a black literary tradition or a feminist literary tradition, if that makes sense.

>>24705982
Yeah, I agree with your point about popular art. You can see people in literary circles bucking the tenderness trend (the reception to that new Ocean Vuong novel, for one) but the popular view of queer art is still in the same place, I fear. It's just stereotyping us in a positive way instead of a negative one.

I'm a trans writer working on a genre novel that (at least to me) has very little to do with said topic, and I fear that to potential publishers this'll just be a potential marketing hindrance. Pseudonym time?

>>24704007 (OP)

There is absolutely nothing mentally wrong with homosexuality. It has been commonly practiced throughout history with most societies creating de-facto "safe spaces" for the gays like the Navy or various other social clubs. They have existed quietly and discreetly through time with some periods and societies being more open to it than others. The Catholic Church to this day is a sanctuary for homosexuality and has created some of the greatest art on earth.

Modern "Trans" culture is a collection of low IQ individuals that aren't capable of independent thought who get so wrapped up in the subculture they start lopping off parts of their body. Maybe 1 in every 500 "trans" people are genuine in their transition.

While not outright incapable it is highly unlikely anything of worth would be created by these individuals.

>>24704007 (OP)
Trannies aren't people and the only thing of merit they're capable of producing is their own premature corpse.

>>24705990
>Pseudonym time?
I'd really recommend to try to play with your queerness to get published. But in that case you'll have to assume trivial interpretations and maybe an unwanted main audience

>>24704007 (OP)
Yes, Lewis Carroll and L Frank Baum would have been trans if born in the modern era

>>24704007 (OP)
durrrr why doesn't 0.00001% of the population make much art? the answer to that question is a lot more simple than you may think.

i think the kind of trans person who could make good art is the same kind that would not make it in the literary establishment, because trans people naturally make pretty bizarre and niche art if you look at what they do in video games or music. doubly so because the literary establishment is so networking heavy and exclusive.

>>24706114
Would you have been not a waste of oxygen had you been born a decade earlier?

>>24705898
https://youtube.com/watch?v=N6-svj5HK9o
Keep seething. Trans artists are making the greatest art of this generation.

>>24706492
You NEED to kill yourself

holy shit a tranny just flew over my house

>>24706110
>play with your queerness
what does this mean

>>24706492
I realize it's an extremely low bar these days, but no. Also, ywnbaw.

>>24706492
nigger this is trash, and I say it as another tranny

You people think about trannies more than trannies think about trannies. It’s strange.

>>24704007 (OP)
>but other kinds of lgbtq people have made incredible art in the past. sappho, woolf, proust, dickinson, and even plato are part of that group. so it doesn't seem like having an alternative lifestyle bars you from being literary
God, you people are fucking retarded. This contemporary equalization of all non-straight peoples as somehow belonging to the LGBTQ+whatever umbrella is a fallacy. LGBTQ isn't some eternal essence, but a modern community, subculture and political identity. It isn't just a descriptor of orientation, but a consciously constructed movement with its own institutions and discourse, much of it post-Stonewall. To retroactively badge these people as "LGBTQ icons" or whatever is pure anachronism.

>>24706556
Oh, you'd be surprised

>>24706556
What do you mean, 'you people'?

>>24706559
Gay people claiming Tchaikovsky or whatever, as if he even remotely belonged to their 'culture', are just being silly. He was a 19th century Russian composer, not some mascot for 21st century degenerate faggotry.

>>24704007 (OP)
They tend to follow the normal trajectory of a quality drop as troonhood increases. There's nothing about them intrinsically which rules it out, but being trans is such an all consuming preoccupation that nothing else of any worth can be produced.

Imagine if you will: you wake up on day a realize that need to look, talk and act Chinese at all times and in all places (and be received as such by everyone you encounter) - or else you'll get a strong compulsion to rope yourself.

There is no such thing as "trans" people.
People who think they are "trans" are pathologically deluded.

There is no such thing as "depressed" people.
People who think they are "depressed" are pathologically deluded.

>>24704007 (OP)
SOPHIE is pretty great music at least

>>24706618
No, it is shit.

>>24704007 (OP)
>so what is the problem?
simple: their whole identity revolves around being trans
that's also the problem with modern (industrially produced, late 20th century) gay people: their whole identity revolves around sucking cock and taking it up the ass
gay people before WW2 actually made art... and not the "degenerate art" kind of art

tl;dr art needs you to be concerned with millions of things and at the same time focus on actually working (making the art)... trans & gay & criminal & communist etc. people focus only on one thing: how to fuck you over, either literally or metaphorically

>>24706620
I think it is great

>>24706624
my opinion > your opinion

bumping because i want to reply to some anons in detail later

>>24706559
>>24706595
Good points.