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Anonymous No.24732476 >>24732517 >>24732520 >>24732544 >>24732557 >>24732564 >>24732566 >>24732612 >>24732615 >>24732798 >>24732807 >>24733163 >>24733174 >>24733546 >>24733758 >>24733926 >>24733938 >>24734078 >>24734089 >>24734093 >>24734367 >>24735250 >>24735260 >>24736237 >>24736657 >>24736678 >>24737708 >>24737906 >>24737923 >>24737929 >>24738102 >>24738214
Akshually it's Corporatism, Not Capitalism
What are some books that explain this problem.
Anonymous No.24732496 >>24732497 >>24732502 >>24732544 >>24733508 >>24736643 >>24737637 >>24737642
Capitalits have become so aware of the evils of capitalism but are such slaves to it that they'll invent a new term to try to defend it
Anonymous No.24732497
>>24732496
Fuck me esl moment
Disregard, disregard, disregard
Anonymous No.24732502 >>24732508 >>24732531 >>24732566 >>24732948 >>24733489 >>24735719 >>24737009
>>24732496
What are the evils of private property?
Anonymous No.24732508 >>24732534
>>24732502
Like money, it takes from the greater population and give to the rich who already have more than enough private property. An 18 year old who just got kicked out cant exactly buy a house on his own nowadays, back then you would have a greater chance. It will only get worse
Anonymous No.24732517 >>24737888
>>24732476 (OP)
Actually, it's the industrial society
Anonymous No.24732520 >>24734242
>>24732476 (OP)
Actually people do in fact hate capitalism. They ought to hate corporatism, but losers hate having to compete more than they do inefficency/injustice. They are the same who hate the boot of the NKVD officer on their neck, or local lord cracking the whip. The world is full and always has been full of lazy people who want to enjoy the fruits and while not sowing. It is what it is.
Anonymous No.24732523
one nation under blackmail
Anonymous No.24732531
>>24732502
It creates resentful commies, and then you have to deal with fucking commies.
Anonymous No.24732534
>>24732508
I see. And you think this is all to be blamed on private property as opposed to some other incorporeal factors?
Anonymous No.24732544 >>24732560 >>24732576 >>24734329 >>24735254
>>24732476 (OP)
>>24732496
Notice how it says "crony state" before corporatism?
The government using its power to give unfair advantages to corporations over any potential competitors isn't capitalism no matter how you look at it.
Anonymous No.24732549
Curious how people didnt really mind working under a boss at all when they shared an ethnicity and neighborhood with them. It was only when CEOs moved into private, wealthy areas and became increasing "other" that cracks began to form.
Anonymous No.24732557
>>24732476 (OP)
>Adrian Dittmann

Funny he would be saying this considering the relationship between Tesla and the government.
Anonymous No.24732560 >>24734246
>>24732544
No, the point socialists are making is that this abuse of power is inherent in what they call capitalism. What I rarely see addressed is that such abuses of power will inevitably happen regardless of economic and political systems, simply because any entity with the power to influence a centralized government will abuse it, and a centralized government is an inevitable consequence of current population densities and modes of production.
Anonymous No.24732564 >>24737923
>>24732476 (OP)
The problem with capitalism is that there are not enough capitalists.
Anonymous No.24732566 >>24732739 >>24737985
>>24732476 (OP)
crony capitalism is a cope by brainwashed americans to explain away the fact that capitalist institutions are always intertwined with state institutions, always breeds corruption, and without proper state regulations (anti-trust laws) always leads to consolidation/oligopoly/monopoly. Dittmanns meme is pure grade retarded ironic unself-awareness. everyone other that deluded liberals and contrarian 4channers hate capitalism
>>24732502
literally read marx via das kapital on primitive accumulation, private property was built upon seizure of ancestral and common lands in England, displacing inhabitants and forcing them into urban areas to either be homeless or wagecuck slaves
Anonymous No.24732576 >>24732586 >>24732798
>>24732544
>not true capitalism!!!!
this has always been how things worked and this argument has been repeated so ad nauseum its obnoxious, fact that communists and capitalists say the same fucking thing about their respective idealism is telling.
Anonymous No.24732586 >>24732602
>>24732576
>>not true capitalism!!!!
yeah
>a lack of government intervention doesn't work because look at all the bad things happening as a result of government intervention
simply not a logical position to take
Anonymous No.24732602
>>24732586
You're being an illogical and disingenuous faggot who is clearly working on the lolitarian presumption that government action is always bad. You are using the logical outcomes of capitalist political economy (state institution capturing) to argue that other political economies are bad as well, when clearly everything from liberal-reformist systems, national socialist systems, to downright communism solves the problem of a class of plutocrats stealing and consolidating everything and rigging all laws to fuck you 100 ways before the work week even starts.
Anonymous No.24732612
>>24732476 (OP)
>person who misuses the term 'corporatism' thinks he can speak on anybody's economic literacy level
Anonymous No.24732615
>>24732476 (OP)
During the late 19th/early 20th centuries the term "international capital", "financial slavery", "imperialism" and "world jewry" were thrown around a lot and I think, by design, people dont understand anymore what these things mean.
Under globalism a company may be seated in a country, but its ownership through stocks is usually spread all around the world. In Germany most of the stocks arent even owned by Germans. So through dividends most of the value created through German labor in Germany is siphoned into foreign countries where it can be used to buy even more stocks in Germany thus creating a oppressive cycle of financial subjugation. Most people most of the time work for the benefit of foreigners when their own countries need the capital themselves.
Modern slavery is not done through military force with chains around peoples necks, its done through ownership of the capital.
And thats the real problem: (((globalism))). Anybody who uses the vague term of "capitalism" without even understanding its meaning is a useful idiot who prevents the real issues from being discussed. Capital is important, its needed to build a civilization, and thats why every nation should hold sovereignty over it, not a bunch of rootless (((investment banks))).
Anonymous No.24732731 >>24732749
Okay but....I needed books, though.

Fuck it. I'll just post the superior Anti-Superman for non-retards. Yes, I know using capeshit as an example is a sequitur. But I don't care.
>WARKD
Anonymous No.24732739 >>24732948
>>24732566
>private property was built upon seizure of ancestral and common lands in England
Have you ever heard of the tragedy of the commons?
Also, you have not explained what the "evils" of private property are. Is it evil simply because it is not public property?
Anonymous No.24732749 >>24732803
>>24732731
>Irredeemable
Completely agree. The best anti-supes out there.

But seriously, someone should make a "what if superman was good?" comic for maximum hilarity.
Anonymous No.24732757
>at this moment I am euphoric
Anonymous No.24732798 >>24732826 >>24732948 >>24734264 >>24734384
>>24732476 (OP)
You shouldn't need a fucking book to understand this.

Just read up on Capitalism from people who actually understand it (IOW not commies).
Then you understand that capitalism is merely an economic system a government can maintain based on concepts of private property and free markets. Unlike communism, it's not some sort of all-encompassing ideology that is expected to solve every problem. It's not presumed that capitalism must necessarily crowd out and banish every other moral, social or governmental principle.

Maintaining any system of liberty is in the real world of politics is hard and requires constant vigilance, adaptation and virtue. And there are some problems markets cannot solve (eg healthcare with its infinite demand vs information asymmetry).

"Crony state corporatism" isn't a real system it's just corrupted capitalism.

>>24732576
Problem with retard arguments like yours is that there's ALWAYS a hidden straw man that we're talking about the "true communism has never been tried" idiocy. Because capitalism has been empirically proven to be good at generating wealth (Marx even admitted this). Communism is this "alternative" economic system to capitalism, where commies steal the wealth from capitalists and everyone lives happily ever after because human nature has changed to accept "from each according to his ability to each according to need." Commies think that because we've never reached the final utopia, that we've never seen "real communism" and therefore should ignore the fact that every single time commies have tried to bring about their utopia the result is an unmitigated disaster of human misery and atrocities.
Anonymous No.24732803
>>24732749
We don't have a comic. But we do have the Snyder Cut for that reason.
Anonymous No.24732807
>>24732476 (OP)
Anonymous No.24732826 >>24732916 >>24735361
>>24732798
Yes, but this is in response to what Omni Man was stating as an echo and also a byproduct of PC writing in today's counterculture where people bash on capitalism and give it the runaround. When in reality it is Corporatism hiding under the veneer of capitalism that people should be paying attention to which is what picrel, an alien no less, is trying to say about us and our society.

Corporatism gets mistaken for Capitalism because it leverages the free market's framework—private property and competition—while distorting it with government intervention. This happens through subsidies, bailouts, or regulations that favor big players, creating a rigged system. People see the inequality and blame capitalism, not realizing the distortion stems from corporatist policies that prop up connected elites, not true market dynamics.

The confusion persists because corporatism thrives on opacity—governments and corporations collude to protect their interests, often under the guise of economic stability or job creation. This erodes the core of capitalism, which relies on fair competition and individual initiative. For instance, when regulations favor established firms over new entrants, innovation stalls, and wealth concentrates, fueling the perception of a "capitalist" failure. It’s a deliberate misrepresentation that shifts blame from systemic corruption to the market itself.

To make themselves heard, people should clearly distinguish corporatism from capitalism, emphasizing that the issue is government overreach and cronyism, not free markets. They could say: "We need to call out corporatism—government favoritism and rigged systems—not capitalism, which thrives on fair competition. Demand transparency and end subsidies that prop up elites!" Spreading this message through public forums, social media, or local discussions can amplify the call for reform.
Anonymous No.24732916
>>24732826
Agreed.
Anonymous No.24732948 >>24733874
>>24732739
>>24732502
>What are the evils of private property?
Private property of certain goods implies consequences shared by everyone in a given-group of people. For instance, if I own a factory and decide to pollute the environment and ruining the local river, these consequences will affect everyone around me. Private property in the current paradigm has largely mythified this notion that certain goods should be commercialized and CANNOT under any circumstances be subject to democracy or popular approval. This of course creates unwarranted consequences for the collective for the personal profit of the individual.

>>24732798
> [...] human nature has changed to accept "from each according to his ability to each according to need."
Not about socialism btw. Retards always spam this quote without understanding that it doesn't aim at describing socialism but communism. Marx even used it as an opposition to german socialists in the 19th century who were idealists in their political ambitions (critique of the gotha program).

>we're talking about the "true communism has never been tried" idiocy
Kinda true. Marx never made any program, he just analyzed reality and described phenomenons underlining capitalism/alienation. This is like saying that catholicism is false because Franco's Spain and Salazar's Portugal were shitholes.

>therefore should ignore the fact that every single time commies have tried to bring about their utopia the result is an unmitigated disaster of human misery and atrocities.
Even if we believe a black and white vision of socialist countries (very wrong imo but for the argument), you still have to account for all the "communist" policies which did work, stuff like social security, housing programs, mass education etc.

It's quite funny that you try to have a nuanced take on capitalism but then fall into blatant idiocy for socialism/marxism...
Anonymous No.24733163 >>24733582
>>24732476 (OP)
Ironic because he's talking about corporatocracy not corporatism which is more related to fascism.
Anonymous No.24733174
>>24732476 (OP)
Atlas Shrugged
ps. op is gay
Anonymous No.24733489
>>24732502
Private property predates capitalism by centuries. Presumably it will postdate capitalism by centuries too.
Anonymous No.24733508
>>24732496
Mm'kay.
Anonymous No.24733511
Daily reminder that "muh capitalism" is a spook invented by communists. It's their Emmanuel Goldstein.
Anonymous No.24733546 >>24733565 >>24733888
>>24732476 (OP)
People associate criticism of capitalism with retarded communists and therefore feel deeply uncomfortable when they hear it. Thus, the "corporatism" cope, as well as redefinitions of the word "capitalism" that make it so broad as to be meaningless. This is the biggest reason why billionaires fund communist groups: they're so obviously stupid and evil that they scare normal people away from any criticism of or alternative to capitalism.
Anonymous No.24733565 >>24736647 >>24736821
>>24733546
>why billionaires fund communist groups
Name 5 billionaires that do this.
Anonymous No.24733582
>>24733163
Good to see there's at least one person on /lit/ who reads.
Anonymous No.24733758
>>24732476 (OP)
The Managerial Revolution
Anonymous No.24733874 >>24734384 >>24734595
>>24732948
>you still have to account for all the "communist" policies which did work,
No I don't. Apart from your examples being hilariously bad (government spent all the social security, "the projects" is synonymous with crime-ridden slums), you missed the part about capitalism not being an all-encompassing ideology. This means you can appeal to any value system you want as far as influencing public policy.

You don't need socialism to argue for social security.
You don't need socialism to argue for mass education.
You don't need socialism to argue for public transit.

>It's quite funny that you try to have a nuanced take on capitalism but then fall into blatant idiocy for socialism/marxism...
Because it's not nuanced, it's obfuscated. It's a quasi-religion that mostly doesn't play well with other value systems.
And, there's no inherent value in it. There's nothing good you get from Marxism that you couldn't also get (and usually better) from some other religion or value system. Romans had the grain dole almost two thousand years before Marx was even born. And people act as if we'd have no concept of public welfare if it wasn't for socialism.
Anonymous No.24733888 >>24733910
>>24733546
>People associate criticism of capitalism with retarded communists
Because it is.
If you're critiquing specific problems that arise within capitalism, there's rarely any need to call out "capitalism" itself. If your economic system is morphing into something different/better than capitalism, you might argue for a new descriptive name (eg "neo-mercantilism"). If you're critiquing globalism you call it globalism, etc.

The only people who attack "capitalism" as if it's a reasonable idea to just throw it out the window and switch to something completely different, are retarded commies.
Anonymous No.24733910
>>24733888
You probably fall under the
>redefinitions of the word "capitalism" that make it so broad as to be meaningless
heading. I assume you define it as either "when there's trade" or "when there's property." If that's all it is to you then there's nothing wrong with it, but if capitalism is what we have right now then we have to contend with the fact that the ruling class's mindless pursuit of infinity profit undermines nations, families, cultures, social life, and the ability of the common man to own private property or work for himself. In short, we have to contend with the fact that it's slowly doing all the same things communists want to do, and this is a problem.
Anonymous No.24733926
>>24732476 (OP)
>show is called Invincible
>can still see the characters
Anonymous No.24733938
>>24732476 (OP)
Capitalism is a made up word from socialists to better have an object to seethe about.
Anonymous No.24734078 >>24734091
>>24732476 (OP)
>when capitalism fails
>bad consequences from capitalism
That wasn’t real capitalism, real capitalism has never been tried.

Seriously that is their answer. They are as delusional as commies. Only whatever good things happen are because of capitalism. Bad things happening must be someone else’s fault. Put christniggers and other religious tards into this type if thinking as well.
Anonymous No.24734089
>>24732476 (OP)
The difference is corporatocracy is the economy owning the state and corporatism is the state owning the economy. But this thread seems full of whiny communists so ill see my way out.
Anonymous No.24734091
>>24734078
Sure i guess when landlords get killed its their fault too, right?
Anonymous No.24734093
>>24732476 (OP)
>produced by large corporation with anti-competitive practices with vast holdings ranging from grocery stores to movie studios
Anonymous No.24734242
>>24732520
Problem is they're not being laughed at for suggesting we should return to policies that haven't worked and have resulted in mass death, and will bootlick any corporation that says they like the gays.
Anonymous No.24734246
>>24732560
The main problem is concentration of power.
The more hands holding lesser amounts of power, the less anyone can cheat.
Anonymous No.24734264 >>24734270
>>24732798
capitalism "fits" human nature only as long as the system that preserves it is also capable of mantaining the illusion that everyone can access wealth, and this much hasn't been true since the beginning, pretty much. capitalism, by design, produces winners and losers. and among the losers, a pseudo scientific appeal to some monolithic "human nature" won't do fuck all to placate their discontent.
Anonymous No.24734270 >>24734309
>>24734264
No, what creates winners and losers is when the government interferes and puts regulations (and lockdowns) in place that large corporations can easily step over but smaller competitors cannot.
The losers are always going to be losers. In communism they will whine about long work shifts. In socialism they will leech off of the employ owned businesses.
In capitalism, they leech off the welfare system that should only exist for the crippled, retired, or defective.
Anonymous No.24734271 >>24734768
None of you retards know what corporatism is. You've been misusing the term all throughout the thread. You're looking for corporatocracy
Anonymous No.24734309 >>24735914
>>24734270
>No, what creates winners and losers is when the government
how deluded do you have to be as to the history of capitalism to make this assertion? market failures exist with or without the government
>The losers are always going to be losers
maybe so, but my point is that none of this says shit about human nature or, alternatively, that every economic system paints an equally accurate representation of it, and thus the argument is moot. for most of human history society had more to do with self-governing communes than aything remotely resembling capitalism, and I doubt you can argue that system didn't accurately capture what it meant to be human then. capitalist supremacism is just bloviated presentism.
Anonymous No.24734329 >>24734355 >>24734480 >>24734668
>>24732544
What in capitalism stops me from gaining leg up by exchanging favors with government? Its a competition, and I want to win.
Anonymous No.24734355 >>24734359
>>24734329
What stops you in any other system?
Anonymous No.24734359 >>24734411
>>24734355
Nothing, but I'm not the one claiming capitalism excludes using government power to consolidate their power and position.
Anonymous No.24734367
>>24732476 (OP)
It is consumerism. Stop playing the victim.
Anonymous No.24734374
The decline of the West is primarily happening because the West lacks a rigorously-thought-about and well-defined civilizational goal. This is what contemporarily allows for the corruption of culture and the pursuit of fake, ruinous goals. You can ask any Westerner today what the point of their personal existence is, and what their society seeks to achieve, and they will have no cogent answers for you.

Thankfully, you can look at the actions of both the individuals and their governments to determine their implicit pursuits: liberalism and consumerism. If you live in the West today, you will ('must', actually) be liberated from all traditional constraints and have no genuine aspirations except for the consumption of things of all forms, natural or artificial, through all of your human senses, and preferably, all at the same time.

Mindless consumption is the highest good.

This of course predictably leads to the degeneration of culture.
Anonymous No.24734384 >>24734611 >>24734668 >>24735917
>>24732798
>capitalism has been empirically proven to be good at generating wealth
So has "crony state capitalism". In fact, Blackrock generates more wealth in a day than any enterprise of "proper capitalism" did in a year.

>>24733874
>You don't need socialism to argue for social security.
>You don't need socialism to argue for mass education.
>You don't need socialism to argue for public transit.
You don't need Capitalism to argue for free market, either.
Anonymous No.24734411
>>24734359
Aight
Anonymous No.24734480 >>24734723
>>24734329
there are anti-bribing laws.
Anonymous No.24734595 >>24734729
>>24733874
>You don't need socialism to argue for social security.
The whole point of socialism is making goods for the people by the people to profit the population. Ironically enough you can't understand that because you view everything through systems : it's either a capitalist system with private property or socialist with state-owned property. You don't understand how there can be certain "capitalist" sectors in socialist shitholes like Laos or Vietnam or "socialist" policies in capitalist countries like Singapore or France.

>Because it's not nuanced, it's obfuscated. It's a quasi-religion that mostly doesn't play well with other value systems.
Grim. You have so little knowledge about marxism or anything related to marx that not could you not say anything relevant to the conversation, you can't even formulate an argument about marxism.
Anonymous No.24734611
>>24734384
>you don't need the free market to argue for the free market
Anonymous No.24734668 >>24734723
>>24734384
>You don't need Capitalism to argue for free market, either.
Except this is not a coherent claim. What do you even mean by "argue for free market?" Social security, education, and transit are all explicit, well-defined services that a government can run or subsidize.

What does it mean for a government to implement a "free market"? Does it mean that the government guarantees property rights and allows individuals to own and sell the means of production? Are laborers are allowed to pick and choose employers and bargain for wages? That's capitalism, even if it's blended with other systems.

>>24734329
A capitalist government is supposed to regulate free trade equally among people. Regulating fairly, without corruption, builds trust in the government and the system which entices more capital investment leading to more growth and wealth generation.
Wealthy individuals or groups abusing their wealth to corrupt the government is an inherent risk in capitalism. But corruption is a risk in any system and there isn't much evidence that capitalism is worse than any other system in terms of minimizing corruption. If anything, it's usually better.
Anonymous No.24734723 >>24734737
>>24734480
Ok, doesn't answer the question.
>>24734668
>A capitalist government is supposed to regulate free trade equally among people.
>Regulate
>Free trade
Every conversation with people claiming capitalism is the best system ends up like this, they always start advocating limits to their perfect system.
Not that communists are much different.
Anonymous No.24734729 >>24735224
>>24734595
>The whole point of socialism is making goods for the people by the people to profit the population.
Incorrect. The point of socialism is to progress society toward communism. It's based on retarded and repeatedly historicism ideas from Hegel and Marx. And yeah, technically you can thwart Marxist Socialism, stop its progression and get something else, like National Socialism. So if that's your position congrats on being a faggot edgelord but you're still retarded.
>Ironically enough you can't understand that because you view everything through systems
The world is made of systems. That's the correct and proper way to analyze the world. And you don't even grasp the implications or you wouldn't say binary-brain crap like this:
> it's either a capitalist system with private property or socialist with state-owned property.
State ownership of property isn't inherently socialist. That's one of my main fucking points. Feudalism isn't socialism or capitalism.
>You don't understand how there can be certain "capitalist" sectors in socialist shitholes like Laos or Vietnam or "socialist" policies in capitalist countries like Singapore or France.
No, it's because your failure to think in terms of systems, that you inherently associate any social services (eg in a country like France) as "socialism" whether those policies were motivated by ideological socialism or not.

My position is that ideological socialism is a dangerous and unnecessary slippery slope that promotes economic illiteracy and perverse incentives for politicians to increase their bureaucratic power. We'd be far better off with social programs evaluated in isolation on their own merits and a robust cost/benefit assessment, than retard ideological socialsts who either demand that daddy government solve all their problems, or else are legit commies who are trying to usher in the ultimate utopia where they have everything they want without having to work for it.
Anonymous No.24734737 >>24734745
>>24734723
>Every conversation with people claiming capitalism is the best system ends up like this,
Yeah because you are retard who doesn't even understand what capitalism is.
It's regulations that create capitalism, you dumb fuck. Governments must protect and guarantee property rights.
Anonymous No.24734745 >>24734749
>>24734737
Then the property belongs to government, and you are merely given custody over it.
Anonymous No.24734749 >>24734777
>>24734745
No. Now you're just playing word games and retreating to abstractions to avoid facing the fact that you're fucking wrong and don't actually understand any of this.
Typical of Marxists.
Anonymous No.24734768
>>24734271
This, I doubt even retards think we have a syndicalist economy
Anonymous No.24734777 >>24735721 >>24735738
>>24734749
You can cope all you want.
You speak of corruption, but those are your additions. Corruption is just another exchange/contract. It benefits the agreeing individuals, and everyone outside has no complaint. Capitalism merely being right to property, and produce of said property. Capitalism doesn't offer limits of tipping things to your favor. Fact you see anyone disagreeing as marxists tells more about you, than anyone else.
Anonymous No.24734782
>billionaires keep getting richer even though they could never spend their entire fortune in 10 life times
>rest of the people cant even afford housing with a single income
Cool
Anonymous No.24735224 >>24735727
>>24734729
>The point of socialism is to progress society toward communism.
Wrong. The point of marxist-socialism is to make man escape from alienation, in particular economic alienation. Once again, your lack of awareness of these topics is showing. Communism as this idealized stage of humanity was something conceptualized to answer what would happen once man had overcome economic alienation. It's not a precise "stage" that societies directly aim at, but something that happens progressively. It's one of the major misunderstandings people have of it (alongside with that quote). More over, achieving socialist measures by implementing progressive reforms is the driving idea behind most socialist countries nowadays, who recognize that having a bourgeoisie isn't completely irrational (and thus alienating for the proles), exemplified by eurocoms, chinese socialism, the lassalian movement and virtually all major comunist parties.

>The world is made of systems
Retard you literally contradict yourself here. You can't say that the world is made of systems and then posit that I'm thinking binarily. The world is full of various policies with different ideological backgrounds and results. The fact that you can't seem to understand this either means that you're deluding yourself into an illogical position because you're too prideful to admit being a retard with no knowledge, or because you're genuinely sub90 iq. This is why I said earlier that you fall into idiocy when saying that socialism/marxism MUST be all-encompassing when it doesn't. Capitalism is private ownership of the means of production, socialism is socialized means of production (primarily through the state or collective orgnisations). You correctly noticed the former, but then became a dumbfuck "acshually socialism is when 100 trillion gorillion must die" while withholding a erroneous surface-level understanding of marxism for the latter.

>My position is that ideological socialism is a dangerous and unnecessary slippery slope that promotes economic illiteracy and perverse incentives for politicians to increase their bureaucratic power.
I agree, if people had an once of interest in marxism as they had in bashing it because "MUH STALIN" then the world would be a better place. It's ironically because retards have no nuances when it comes to capitalism that they don't understand that you can preserve private ownership in a socialist system as a mean to an end and vice-versa.


>State ownership of property isn't inherently socialist
>Socialism is an economic and political philosophy encompassing diverse economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership. It describes the economic, political, and social theories and movements associated with the implementation of such systems.
Retarded take, unless you want to go down with the whole "ackshually the state can be capitalist by serving the interests of the ruling class XD1!!!1!!1"
Anonymous No.24735227
Anonymous No.24735232
Anonmous No.24735250
>>24732476 (OP)
You wont find it in economics; its something about sociology or psychology.
The real phenomena here is manipulation; idk if this type has a specific name.

1) you make a valid complaint
2) I rephrase your complaint with a nonsense distinction, calling you ignorant for not using my explanation
3) Ive now shifted blame to you from myself.

So its using power to shift blame? Ignoring peoples who cannot back their words with effect?
Idk, its hard to understand. What the true underlying principle is & what people claim it is are very different.
Anonmous No.24735254
>>24732544
The Govt. has been bought. It doesnt get more capitalist than that.
Anonymous No.24735260
>>24732476 (OP)
Okay, so how do we have capitalism without politicians who are puppets of the rich? What do we do to prevent bribery and lobbying that we aren't doing now?
>*crickets*
Could we reverse the citizens united ruling?
>No! That protects free speech!
Anonymous No.24735361 >>24736765
>>24732826
How can such reforms occur in an environment of state capture? And how can the ideal market dynamics you propose be preserved without a strong state to enforce "fair competition?" Then how can such a state exist without being vulnerable to subversion by those who achieve greater wealth consolidation in the competitive market?
Anonymous No.24735719
>>24732502
>Destitute of valid reasons to justify and sufficient strength to defend himself, able to crush individuals with ease, but easily crushed himself by a troop of bandits, one against all, and incapable, on account of mutual jealousy, of joining with his equals against numerous enemies united by the common hope of plunder, the rich man, thus urged by necessity, conceived at length the profoundest plan that ever entered the mind of man: this was to employ in his favour the forces of those who attacked him, to make allies of his adversaries, to inspire them with different maxims, and to give them other institutions as favourable to himself as the law of nature was unfavourable.

>With this view, after having represented to his neighbours the horror of a situation which armed every man against the rest, and made their possessions as burdensome to them as their wants, and in which no safety could be expected either in riches or in poverty, he readily devised plausible arguments to make them close with his design. "Let us join," said he, "to guard the weak from oppression, to restrain the ambitious, and secure to every man the possession of what belongs to him: let us institute rules of justice and peace, to which all without exception may be obliged to conform; rules that may in some measure make amends for the caprices of fortune, by subjecting equally the powerful and the weak to the observance of reciprocal obligations. Let us, in a word, instead of turning our forces against ourselves, collect them in a supreme power which may govern us by wise laws, protect and defend all the members of the association, repulse their common enemies, and maintain eternal harmony among us."

>Far fewer words to this purpose would have been enough to impose on men so barbarous and easily seduced; especially as they had too many disputes among themselves to do without arbitrators, and too much ambition and avarice to go long without masters. All ran headlong to their chains, in hopes of securing their liberty; for they had just wit enough to perceive the advantages of political institutions, without experience enough to enable them to foresee the dangers. The most capable of foreseeing the dangers were the very persons who expected to benefit by them; and even the most prudent judged it not inexpedient to sacrifice one part of their freedom to ensure the rest; as a wounded man has his arm cut off to save the rest of his body.
Anonymous No.24735721 >>24736944
>>24734777
No cope.
The entire premise of capitalism is government guaranteeing property rights. Whether you buy into Lockean theories of natural rights or just take a more pragmatic view, either way the point of Capitalism is to inform government IOW regulations. You made a disingenuous tautological comment about ownership to avoid facing reality.
>well the government COULD change its rules or outright violate them to seize your property at any time
As already established, in a capitalist system the government is supposed to guarantee property rights and not arbitrarily seize property. Being consistent and fair builds trust and leads to more active participation in the system which leads to growth.
>Capitalism doesn't offer limits of tipping things to your favor.
It does if you're talking about the responsibility of a capitalist government to ensure rules on trade are equal for all people. Equality under the law is a building block of capitalism.

You just can't seem to get anything right.
Anonymous No.24735727
>>24735224
>Wrong. The point of marxist-socialism is to make man escape from alienation, in particular economic alienation.
Yeah and to that end he predicts a communist revolution which will begin with socialism that will eventually give way to state communism and then global communism. I'm way more familiar with Marx than you think, I'm just sticking to simple claims to cut through bullshit. Because Marxists are capable of spewing a never-ending stream of it.
Anonymous No.24735738
>>24734777
>Fact you see anyone disagreeing as marxists tells more about you, than anyone else.
Didn't even say that, by the way. What I said was people attacking capitalism holistically, where the implicit argument is that capitalism should be "thrown out the window" and replaced with something else. Where usually the "something else" is unspecified.

Targeted criticisms of capitalism do not signal Marxists. But Marxists are never economically literate enough to give such arguments.
Anonymous No.24735914
>>24734309
Who cares about human nature?
The point is no artificial structure lets monopolies fuck us in true capitalism.
But what most people call Capitalism is just the government choosing to work with corporations.
Anonymous No.24735917 >>24736855
>>24734384
Public transit is a terrible idea, at least as implemented.
If taxes are involved there need to be armed guards to shoo off misbehaving homeless people (preferably killing them at the same time).
Anonymous No.24736237
>>24732476 (OP)
Drooling retards will never get this.
Anonymous No.24736643
>>24732496
>dude it wasn't communism but SOCIALISM
>bro socialism isn't when the government does stuff, it's when the COLLECTIVE does stuff
Anonymous No.24736647
>>24733565
George Soros
Anonymous No.24736657 >>24737833
>>24732476 (OP)
Just study maths.
No one in this thread has a fucking clue.
t.Honours in Economics.
Anonymous No.24736678
>>24732476 (OP)
2008's a perfect example. A capitalist system would've let the banks fail, they made the bad decisions and deserved to collapse for new players to fill in. Instead the government bailed out everyone and no lessons were learned.
Anonymous No.24736765
>>24735361
Make having work experience as a soldier, public school teacher, nurse, or other front line humanitarian career a prerequisite for eligibility to hold public office. Implement a death penalty for elected officials who are found to have conflict of interest or who violate the rights of the citizens.
Anonymous No.24736821
>>24733565
Annenbergs gave money to Jacobin.
Anonymous No.24736855 >>24737986
>>24735917
>underfunded public transport is shit
>therefore public transport is shit
Why are yanks so retarded?
Anonymous No.24736944 >>24737828
>>24735721
Idealistic nonsense, like any commie cope.
Anonymous No.24737009
>>24732502
Just some commie mental illness.
Anonymous No.24737637
>>24732496
A key marker of being an ideologue is the inability, often masked as aggressive denial/refusal, to reform their views according to new contexts as they are presented.
Anonymous No.24737642 >>24737667
>>24732496
move to havana or shut the hell up.
Anonymous No.24737667
>>24737642
Histrionics only work on social media right fag?
Anonymous No.24737708
>>24732476 (OP)
There's no way to actually describe the problem without being antisemitic, so really you should just read Luther's On the Jews and their Lies.
Anonymous No.24737828
>>24736944
It'e entirely practical, proven and not idealistic at all. Like any good thing it requires maintenance and vigilance against decay, rot, corruption, and other threats. Retards can't figure this out.
Anonymous No.24737833 >>24737839
>>24736657
>t.Honours in Economics.
I bet you'd be able to say even dumber shit than the commies.
Anonymous No.24737839 >>24737853
>>24737833
By all means go ahead and impress us with your intelligence.
Anonymous No.24737853 >>24737857
>>24737839
Bismarck is the capital of North Dakota.
Anonymous No.24737857 >>24737917
>>24737853
Stick to the shitball traditionalist garbage. You're not needed as an object for demonstration. I'm sure there's some magic you could be reading about.
Anonymous No.24737884
>it wasn't real communism, it was actually state capitalism. real communism has never been tried
>it wasn't real capitalism, it was actually corporatism! real capitalism has never been tried
You know an ideology and its apparatus are moribund when they have to resort to these silly excuses that are only convincing to those who are already convinced. I just hope our "fall of the soviet union" moment isn't as painful as the previous one.
Anonymous No.24737888
>>24732517
this
Anonymous No.24737906
>>24732476 (OP)
There's plenty, but all of them were written by Jews
Anonymous No.24737917 >>24738186
>>24737857
Whoa whoa whoa. Calm down there, Captain Undergrad. Did you know Native Americans called corn maize?
Anonymous No.24737923
>>24732476 (OP)
No True Scotsman is the defence. The flipside of this is "that wasn't real communism".

>>24732564
Follows from so few people having the right preferences and skills to be build up or manage lots of capital, but even people who would be good investors or admins on their own can reap higher returns from working other people's capital as specialists.
Anonymous No.24737929
>>24732476 (OP)
It’s managerialism read leviathan and its enemies
Anonymous No.24737981
An honest man falls in love with an honest woman; he wishes, therefore to marry her, to be the father of her children, to secure her and himself. All systems of government should be tested by whether he can do this. If any system—feudal, servile, or barbaric—does, in fact, give him so large a cabbage-field that he can do it, there is the essence of liberty and justice. If any system—republican, mercantile, or Eugenist—does, in fact, give him so small a salary that he can't do it, there is the essence of eternal tyranny and shame.
Anonymous No.24737985 >>24738108
>>24732566
>crony capitalism is a cope by brainwashed americans to explain away the fact that capitalist institutions are always intertwined with state institutions
That's not what they are you drooling retard. They're not suppose to be intertwined with the state. The point is that they compete with each other and survive or die purely by merit, not by leeching off the state/tax payer. You people fucking deserve to get raped by the government.
Anonymous No.24737986
>>24736855
Public-sector industries are unionised up the arse.
Unionised labour is expensive labour.
This is why the public sector never delivers good value for taxpayers.
Anonymous No.24738071
Michael Hudson
Anonymous No.24738102
>>24732476 (OP)
The existence of eunuchs mindbroken by bourgeoisie ideology? try German Ideology
Anonymous No.24738108
>>24737985
The real black pill is that the military is funded by capitalists.
Anonymous No.24738186
>>24737917
Yeah get back to me on the metaphysics of that.
Anonymous No.24738202
It's always amusing to watch Marxists act like I'm going to take them seriously or bother to refute their arguments. Easily observable reality has done a fine job of that for me.
Anonymous No.24738214
>>24732476 (OP)
As much as I hate plebs I also hate capitalists.