Thread 24769961

Which epic poems have you read, anons? And what do you think of the epic? Can epic poetry be written in the modern period? Think ‘A’, Cantos, Paterson, and Omeros.

>>24769961 (OP)
>Which epic poems have you read, anons?
The classics. Iliad, Odyssey, Aeneid, Metamorphoses, Divine Comedy, Paradise Lost, Paradise Regained. Still yet to read Chaucer, Spenser, Ariosto and Melville.
I don't think you can write epic poetry in a post-Waste Land world. Literature is too fragmented, too conscious of itself to write anything straight. Maybe if New Sincerity takes off.

>>24769961 (OP)
>Which epic poems have you read, anons?
Iliad, Odyssey, Aeneid, Metamorphoses, Paradise Lost, Beowulf, Canterbury Tales, Knight in the Panther's Skin, Song of Roland, Argonautica, Orlando Furiosa, The Prelude, Don Juan... possibly others I'm forgetting. Currently reading Shahnameh which is kino.
>And what do you think of the epic?
I'm still not sure what constitutes an epic but they're probably my favorite things to read. The violence, heroism, monsters, scope and settings, are very entertaining
>Can epic poetry be written in the modern period?
Probably either satirically or a sort of personal epic that's like schizo autofiction in verse

A lot; most of those mentioned, although only parts of the Spenser. I did papers and my thesis on the Commedia, Iliad, Odyssey, and Aeneid. It was a philosophy program though so the analysis was sort of specific.

I don't think it would be easy to write epic today because poetry is such an uncommon medium. However, the popularity of epic fantasy with some philosophical and aesthetic heft shows there is something of an appetite for it, if perhaps in prose form.

In terms of my favorites, I would put the Commedia up top and Virgil above Homer.

I tried to read the comedy translated by Sisson, I honestly don’t get the appeal, at least in English it just doesn’t look good as poetry. There are some cool insights here and there but man is it not a page turner. Maybe when I learn Italian I will understand it.

>>24770321
Try Longfellow

>>24769961 (OP)
>Can epic poetry be written in the modern period?
I'm writing one, Milton style.

Why was there no Virgil for Alexander the Great?

is there a chart or a list of all epic poetry I can read

>>24769961 (OP)
Iliad, Odyssey, Paradise Lost, Prometheus Unbound, The Dynasts (Hardy), Orpheus (Crowley), Prometheus (Tony Harrison)
Since the most recent of these dates from 1997, I'd argue the form is not dead yet.

>>24769961 (OP)
>Can epic poetry be written in the modern period?
There was a guy who wrote a trilogy of /sffg/ books in the Kalevala metre here in Finland. Solid 3/5, wouldn't have bothered to read the whole trilogy otherwise.

>>24770911
No, but here's a chart.

>>24770911
>>24771207
And here's another chart missing some and adding others.

Also forgot to add that the /sffg/ epic trilogy was from 2000s.

>>24769961 (OP)
>Can epic poetry be written in the modern period
Apparently so.

>>24771212
>The Book of Mormon
LOL@Amerikeks.

>>24769961 (OP)
homer, dante, some of virgil, beowulf, roland, spenser, milton. canterbury tales and metamorphoses aren't epics, even spenser barely counts.
outside of europe, i've read the two indian epics, the sumerian gilgamesh stories, the lugalbanda/enmerkar cycle and the akkadian sargon fragments.
my thoughts on epic are thoughts on the fundamental nature of literature. they are inextricable, and i think conceiving of epic as just some genre is an absurd modern category error. in a meaningful sense, a "modern epic" is a contradiction in terms, although i think the authors you cite are not ignorant of the issues at play, and probably had interesting angles to pursue.
there are deep truths to be found in the study of epic, both its content and its context, but most readers are not critical enough to actually care about these truths.

>>24771243
Do you have any favorites? Also what makes a true epic in your opinion? I agree Canterbury Tales and Metamorphoses don't really count

>>24771343
>Do you have any favorites?
homer is the greatest and it's not close. but there are glimpses of a similar power in the mahabharata, although it's severely adulterated and degenerated (and the textual genealogy is very obscure, making it hard to know where credit should be attributed).
i think roland is very underrated, it's one of the purest and strongest of those i've read. it has real weight.
>Also what makes a true epic in your opinion? I agree Canterbury Tales and Metamorphoses don't really count
those are disqualified on the grounds of mere structure, which doesn't even get into the really interesting questions.
a TRUE true epic is collaborative and it is, in an almost literal sense, true. as in, it's not entirely fictional.

>>24771243
>there are deep truths to be found in the study of epic, both its content and its context, but most readers are not critical enough to actually care about these truths
Tell us more. I’ve read Homer and Vergil but I’m the uncritical pleb you speak of

>>24771243
You've read the entire Mahabharata?
>20 times longer than the Iliad
Yeah, I'm calling bullshit

>>24771891
the entire text? hell no. but the entire story, yes. most of that length is not story-relevant material.

>>24771809
what i said here >>24771623 is the kernel of it. the composition of an epic is a multigenerational process involving the resources of a whole culture, and ultimately based on history. this mode of production is much different from that of a single author drawing on the experience of a single life, and the products of each mode have their own corresponding fundamental differences.
the biggest takeaway being, those two modes are not created equal. one is the original, the other is the copy. one is natural, relatively speaking, the other is artificial. how this relates to any value judgment you might form is entirely up to you, but it's a thread that, when pulled on, totally unravels the default conception of literature as it currently exists.

>>24772079
>brags about reading wikipedia summary
kill yourself

>>24772079
I've actually been thinking similarly lately about the organic generation of an epic's contents versus the efforts of a novelist and the grim prospect of the latter. I agree with your earlier post about Homer being the GOAT, but I actually found the Mahabharata too strange to continue reading and thought Roland was kind of dull. Though the parts with the angels and king were pretty great

>>24772111
who was bragging? i answered direct questions that were asked, because i'm interested in the topic. fuck off. you don't have the slightest understanding of what you're talking about.

>>24772308
it's just a really weird thing to realize, that this whole extremely prestigious institution is sort of a simulacrum and a fraud, it's all pastiche.
roland is an acquired taste, sort of the literary equivalent of medieval plainsong. the extreme stripped-down-ness of it is very much the point from a modern reader's perspective, with a few striking images, like the angels, punctuating the most important story beats.
when you say you found the mahabharata too strange, i assume you mean some of the stuff in the first book? like the parts with the sages, visvamitra and vasistha and all that sort of thing? yeah that's what i meant about things that aren't relevant to the story. you can find either an abridged translation or a retelling that will allow you to skirt around that stuff. it perfectly illustrates the downside of the accretionary process of production, i.e. what happens when the written "snapshot" of the oral epic does not get taken until too late in the process, and you end up with a bunch of garbage piled on top of the actual story.

>>24773333
>who was bragging?
You
>there are deep truths to be found in the study of epic, both its content and its context, but most readers are not critical enough to actually care about these truths.
Shut the fuck up.

I bought this recent and it came as a POD book
Feels bad man

>>24773555
studying epic has nothing to do with reading the entire mahabharata text because the skippable parts of the text are skippable because they're not part of the epic.
and that still isn't bragging, it's just me lamenting the difficulty of like-minded people to discuss literature with. stop projecting.

>>24773605
>says he's read the mahabharata
>has not read the mahabharata
kill yourself

I've only read the domestic epic.

>>24773806
like i said, you don't understand the topic even a little bit. and you cannot interpret talking about books as anything but an incredibly high-stakes (relative to the smallness of your actual life) ego-battle. you can't possibly conceive of the possibility that a person might want to discuss books with others who like them, or introduce others to books they liked.
by your definition, btw, the original writer of the actual story of the mahabharata has not read the mahabharata.

>>24773974
Shut the fuck up.

>>24773333
>it's just a really weird thing to realize, that this whole extremely prestigious institution is sort of a simulacrum and a fraud, it's all pastiche.
I feel this pretty acutely. Tolstoy expresses similar sentiments in What is Art which I found quite insightful.
>when you say you found the mahabharata too strange, i assume you mean some of the stuff in the first book? like the parts with the sages, visvamitra and vasistha and all that sort of thing?
Part of it might be an attention issue and I was reading on PC and was intimidated by the size but I found it hard to follow and the incidents struck me as kind of random like they threw a dart at a board of random events and ran with it like eating a bull's excrement or chopping a head off that floats up into the sky and swallows the sun. I'm considering giving it another try though

toasting in epic thread.
>reading
the lusiad by camoens. i'm switching between the burton and the mickle translation whenever i get confused
>read
gilgamesh
illiad
oddessy
agronautica
metamorphosis
pharsalia
song of roland
jerusalem delivered
beowulf
the edda
the faerie queene
paradise loft
>did not finish
the columbiad. it kept introducing historical figures as if i was supposed to know who they were already. i'm sure many of them were already obscure by the time it came out.
the knight in panther's skin. very boring. there was a real dirth of imagery. every character is compared to the sun and most characters are described as being as tall as an aloe tree. they also cried on every page which i found tiring.
orlando innamorato. it's easy to see why this one was overshadowed. it's completely aimless. shit just happens.
>>24773833
that's a verse novel.

>>24774075
there’s no reason to continue the conversation anyway, you have nothing to say.

>>24774095
i have complicated feelings about tolstoy but i know he aligns with my views on some general points, i’ll probably read that one eventually.
yeah that’s what i meant, a lot of it involves the characters i mentioned but there’s also just a bunch of totally random myths. reading smith’s abridged translation will allow you to avoid all that, although i read a complete translation for all the core books and just skipped the worthless ones entirely. but you can definitely stick with the abridgement for e.g. some of the battle chapters where nothing really happens. i just wanted to get a super precise idea of the style. and books 1 and 3 mix important events with a lot of filler so the abridgement is good for that too.

>>24769961 (OP)
>Can epic poetry be written in the modern period?
There have been some movements amongst small ethnic groups to create their own literature in recent times. This involves the creation of national epics. I'm aware of at least the Erzya national epic Mastorava which was compiled in 1994 by Aleksandr Sharonov who did lean on collections by earlier folklorists but also made his own research trips. Another minority people of Russia, the Mari, had their national epic Yugorno written in 2002 by Anatoli Spiridonov.

>>24774339
How did you decide which are core ones? I also am in a tough spot where I want to write and get paid for it but it's made more difficult that I'm likely throwing one more contrivance into the cultural trough. I do think it's possible to write something that is authentic and deserves its place in the world though

>>24775409
this kinda just shows the importance of tradition tho, these are not authors inventing their own "mythos" out of thin air. they're just fixing stories in writing that have been told since time immemorial.

>>24775740
>How did you decide which are core ones?
i didn't, it's a fact of philology and simple narrative structure. i can try to outline it for you if you like, but i'm sure the introduction to the penguin edition, or any similar summary of the relevant scholarship, would do a much better job than i could.
i don't think you should worry about that honestly, the concern is very much academic. if you have some talent as a writer and some awareness of these issues, you'll probably do more good than harm relative to the current crop of writers.

>>24774317
>there’s no reason to continue the conversation
Because you're full of shit

>>24775996
you can't possibly imagine how little i care whether or not anyone thinks i've read the entire mahabharata. but your incredibly petty accusation is unprovable regardless so there's absolutely no point continuing to talk about it, no progress can be made. you just keep it going because you have a compulsive need to have the last word, no matter how infinitesimally small the stakes.

>>24776311
>autistic seething
Shut the fuck up.

>>24774307
>pharsalia
>song of roland
>jerusalem delivered
>the edda
Any one in particular you'd recommend (first)?

>>24776817
i'll reply only to point out that you're reusing the same pathetic little reverse psychology gambit you used before to try and force the interaction to continue. you are addicted to the attention and emotion you get from online strangers in these little exchanges. disgusting.

>>24776878
the pharsalia and jerusalem delivared are the best of that bunch, the pharsalia for the unsually fleshed out characters (unusual for an epic, i mean) and jerusalem delivered for the action. if you like the pharsalia, you'll like paradise loft. if you like jerusalem delivered, you'll like the faerie queene.
the song of roland was bland, honeslty. the king was a cool character but other than that everything was quite dry. i cannot recommend it for anything other than increasing your knowledge about epics, as it was influencial to many that came later.
the edda was good. as one might expect of a holy book, it doesn't follow one solid narrative throughout, but is a collection of stories about the gods. the "havamal" is the highlight of the poem, in which odin imparts the wisdom he deems fit to share with man. i don't think any book is more densely packed with solid advice than applies to everyone than the havamal.

>>24776989
kill yourself
>>24777035
>delivared
You are a retard who can't spell

>>24769961 (OP)
epic of Gilgamesh, Illiad, Metamorphoses, Paradise Lost, epic of Sunjarta, Poems of Ossian, Kalevala, Beowulf, the Luisiads, and 'epic fragments', a volume of whatever's left of the post-Homeric epics.

It is of endless comfort to me that my favorite epic has not been read by any of you slimefuckers.

>>24778035
Low T behavior. Read better epics

>>24778095
>NOOO YOU MUST FOLLOW THE HERD, THAT'S WHAT MEN WITH HIGH TESTOSTERONE DO
there are many layers to how pathetic you truly are

>>24778340
Using epics for hipster points is low T you mong

>>24778455
that you don't appreciate the value of exclusivity beyond faggot fads is of no concern to me

>>24778474
The "value of exclusivity" is a faggot fad you mong

>>24778490
no, you just think it is because you're retarded. anyway, good luck with your condition. goodbye.

>>24778502
>more appeal to ego
Not a serious reader

>>24778502
>>24778474
>>24778340
>>24778035
epics are popular art. esotericism is out of place in the context of epic. if you want authentic esotericism you need to seek out religious and magical texts.

Read this, its one of the best

>>24769961 (OP)
Hitler deserves an epic poem

>>24780863
write it, pussy. how's your german?

>>24781000
I feel like it shouldn't be written by an american med

>>24781081
maybe, but no one else is writing it, so it's first come first served. robert southey, an englishman, wrote an epic about joan of arc, so there's precedent for poets celebrating foreign heros.

>>24778633
>epics are popular art
Kill yourself

I always drop the Iliad. I love the Odysessy and Aeneid but I can never bear to stick with the Iliad. I think it's down to me feeling as if Ive missed a lot of the text because there's so much information given that I can never remember whole passages, and to carry on seems pointless. I've tried the Rieu and Fagles translations.

>>24770438
what about?

>>24781000
i will write it in latin

>>24783191
They're literally folk tales retard

>>24770157
>schizo autofiction in verse
This sounds wonderful

>>24770194
Y commedia up top

>>24771243
What truths

>>24773596
POD?

>>24784775
Print on demand

>>24784751
>Divine Comedy
>folk tale
kill yourself

i havent read hesiod but i intend to

>>24780824
sell it to me.

What languages should we strive to learn as a lovers of the epic? I feel most modern languages aren’t fit to purpose as all European epics were composed in times of greater morphological complexity

>>24784970
>original thing is made
>refined version of original is committed to posterity
>self-conscious imitation of refined version is made using a fundamentally different mode of production
>meta, fourth-wall-breaking imitation of the imitation is made, now the mode of production and the social circumstances of the author are both fundamentally different from the original
>the last step in this process becomes the standard of legitimacy for membership in the genre
you just fell victim to one of the classic blunders

>>24784773
that a man, even the greatest man, can't do it all on his own. that is the lesson that one comes away with, from the stories themselves and the story of the stories.

>>24785105
italian, spanish, french, latin. i can't speak to the moralistic convexity, professor abdullah nightingale, sir.

>>24785105
Arabic first and foremost.

>>24783956
what meter/rhyme?

>>24785187
Why? What are some good Arabic epics?

>>24785302
Nibelungenstrophe with strong dadaistic admixtures, to ideally span the three great European ages

>>24785343
nibelungenstrophe in latin? you're mad!

My tier list of those I've read:

1. Iliad
2. Paradise Lost
3. Argonautica
4. Odyssey
5. Beowulf
6. Death of Arthur
7. Faerie Queene
8. Aeneid

>>24770435
I’ll try it thanks

>>24785366
what's next?

>>24786882
The Nibelungenlied, Eddas, Sagas and the rest of the Matter of Britain.

I have read several pages of the Divine Comedy and don't want to read any further.

>>24785115
What the fuck are you talking about?

>>24786938
yeah, that's what i figured.

>>24788247
Kill yourself