Thread 24778154

Are there any other ideologies that formed due to a fundamental misunderstanding of another ideology?

>>24778154 (OP)
Hegelianism

>temple oriented religion with no temple anymore
>hebrew Bible was wrote as reaction to Christianity
>talmud wrote as reaction to Christianity

I think the diagram on left is more factual. There was a jewish/hebrew religion and Christianity and rabbinic judaism are 2 offshots.

>>24778154 (OP)
Pretty much any Abrahamic faith that isn't Judaism.

>>24778154 (OP)
This is not the case. The diagram is all wrong. Neo-rabbinicalists come from the 19th century, rabbinicalists come from the 9th century, and classical era jews have no relationship with either.

>>24780303
wrong

>>24780307
Where would newer factions like Rastafarianism and Christian Identity fit in that chart?

>>24780307
diagram's missing dispensationalism

>>24780307
Classical era jews became the Essenes and thus the Christians. The other sects were all wiped out when they attempted to genocide their neighbors.

>>24780307
>>24778154 (OP)
You can start digging through the reeds with this diagram.
You have a decent record of Israelite religion and actually thorough standard of their customs and even fringe groups around them that get briefly mentioned like the Sicarii and Essenes.
Anyway Christianity was an offshoot but still started as a cult and for whatever reason got popular acceptance in Greece pretty quickly and then through some elaborate cultural synthesis was seen as somewhat Greek so more Romans adopted it.
But to cut to the heart of the shit sandwich I have no clear cut answer. Most Jewry in the Middle East was eradicated with the destruction of Judea and the establishment of Syria Palestine by Hadrian. That's all nice and apocalyptic, Hadrian's apocalypse solves a great riddle of Revelation but leaves modern ministers a little grasping when it comes to their own theological stances. All that said, I'm convinced that some members, descendants, or at least legends by refugees from victims of Roman retaliation actually may have re-banded together to write the Talmud, and this was several centuries before Islam.
It would be insane to say that post-300 AD, or 400 AD Talmudism was completely consistent with the 20 AD and pre-20 AD Jesus. They wrote plenty of commentary that may have been at odds with their earlier teachings but that's really just in their nature.

>>24782081
>re-banded together to write the Talmud, and this was several centuries before Islam
This was after Islam in the 9th century with the Masoretes. That's where rabbinicalists come from. All of modern neo-rabbinicalism is based on them because they invent kabbalah, mishnah, halakah, and the Talmud.

>>24782081
>post-300 AD, or 400 AD Talmudism
There is no Talmudism that early. Rabbinicalism does not arise until the 9th century. Yes it claims to be older. Yes the sources are lying.

>>24782084
The Talmud has a lot of slander but it is also veritable walls of text and when the ancients start talking they'll say interesting things.
>>24782086
I'll believe it about halfway without much evidence to go on.
I love this stuff in history. I want to get done with school and when I can read Greek I want to double check these cool passages.

>>24778154 (OP)
Modern “post liberals” on the right that criticize things like Christianity, liberalism, and capitalism because they confuse them for progressive/woke/globalist leftism and managerialism. They fell for the trick of operating within the lefts false frame.

>>24782092
>The Talmud has a lot of slander
That's the entire, dare I say, schtick: tall tales and revenge porn. It is not ancient, however, and the jews themselves are not ancient but classical- appearing only after the Maccabean revolt.

>>24782101
The Jews predate the Romans in the fastidiousness of their historical teaching, and rival the Greeks in terms of antiquity. I wouldn't trust their moral principles but the Kabbalah outlines I've read match up loosely with my own personal experiences. Part of myself learning Latin was a desire to medieval texts but I'm too bogged down in school work right now.

>>24780307
I object to NOI being classed as muslim. It's basically Scientology for negroes.

>>24782123
Very low chance Wallace Fard was even muslim. May have been a Pakistani Hindu though.

>>24782112
>The Jews predate the Romans
Not in the slightest. Notice how the Greek historians like Herodotus talk about tribes in the middle of Scythia to trade in western Africa, and on the Arabs and more- but never mentions jews. Nor an Israel. Nor a Judah. There was none. They did not emerge until the Maccabean revolt. And really think about it for a moment- David is supposed to emerge and two regional superpowers, Israel and Judah, are supposed to be in the near east during the height of the Bronze Age Collapse that destroyed every other civilization in the region except Egypt. Furthermore, the stories of the OT claim Israel is independent when we know Egypt and Assyria swapped control over the territory. Then the Medes take it over, then the Achaemenid's. There's not enough space or time for them to exist. It's all made up.

>>24782134
Israel's kingdom is 100% on the record. I admit I'm more into the "pre-historical" line and there's not tl;dr there but only more dirt to uncover. But I think there's solid historical evidence for Abraham as someone who came from Amorite stock, and consequently it looks like Mespotamians and Hebrews came from the same lore. So I would chalk up the myths of Adam and the 10 kings and Seth to the Amorites. David Rohl has the best literature on the stuff in my opinion.

>>24782159
>Israel's kingdom
Is 100% missing. No one else mentions it. The closest anyone came to "finding" evidence was when that pastor and his rabbi found the Merneptah stele and mistranslated Assyria to be Israel. The Assyrians were invading Egypt at the time, for reference.

>>24782162
I doubt it. Dig a little laterally and plenty of evidence for Israelite tribes will appear

Israeli archaeology is based on forgeries that were for the most part exposed throughout the 19th century. We can easily use corroborating foreign histories by Egyptians, Assyrians, Greeks, and others to deduce that there was no such group. The writers who fictionalized the account of the Old Testament did so knowing they were going to fill in gaps in the Bronze Age Collapse.

>>24782164
Go on then. You seem to think I'm new at this, so I'm really interested what new insights you have to offer.

>>24780289
>>hebrew Bible was wrote as reaction to Christianity
So why are their copies of it dating to before Christianity? The Great Isaiah Scroll is probably 2nd century BC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_Scroll

>>24782217
>Dead Sea Scrolls
>real
You know those get proved as forgeries every time they're tested outside of Israel, right?

>>24782225
Are you trying to say that Christianity is really older than Judaism?

Lmaoing at the massive cope in this thread. Well done, OP.

>>24782875
Christians are the last jews through the Essenes. All that stuff about kaballah, halakah, mishnah,etc is actually medieval and not jewish. It's rabbinical.

>>24778154 (OP)
>RELIGION OF THE JUDEANS
>real shame there is no word for this

Do you think any chuds ever actually got a Christian to abandon their faith with a 4chan shitpost?

>>24782918
Stlll younger than the Torah.

interesting stuff.

>>24780289
>was wrote
why can't cretins use the past participle? feels like a pattern among the cognitively inadequate

>>24778154 (OP)
normal people are based

>>24778154 (OP)
I guess the Talmud, the holy book of jews that says they should murder every single gentile, even the "good" ones, does not exist.

>>24780307
How is Islam descended from Paulism? Isn't the Quran just a big refutation to Paul's letters?

>>24780307
wow its almost like Judaism is a load of bullshit that doesnt worship the true god of the cosmos

>>24778154 (OP)
jesus was a galilean, which is in modern day lebanon. the word jew comes from the tribe of judah, which was south and where jerusalem lies.

>>24782081
>for whatever reason got popular acceptance in Greece pretty quickly
why was that anyways? why were the Greeks so entranced by this particular cult of a priorly assumedly pretty insular Judean religion?

I remember the romans being pretty impressed by the long line of prophecies the jews had during the jewish revolt or something. did the greeks find the prophetic nature of jesus' teaching about a more universalist God appealingly in line with the growing neo-platonism in greece at the time? Or maybe to some degree saw themselves in the martyrdom of him to the roman state like how greece was conquered by them? Maybe the seleucid greeks had some degree of synchotism with judea that spread?

>>24786035
Because it's literally "what if Greeks weren't gay: the philosophy".

>>24786035
Its almost certainly because of its congruence with neoplatonism on major topics. Greeks theorized that Christ was the literal physical manifestation of the Logos, this eventually became commonly accepted.

Basically Christianity/Jesus lent to the Greeks what they assumed was proof of neoplatonic philosophy and it just fucking exploded from there.

>>24782921
Doesn't that only apply to the earliest polytheistsic form of the judean religion, before the second temple was built? The judeans for the centuries prior to jesus's birth were also pretty diverse, it would make more sense to go
>Yahwism > Early Second Temple judaism > pharisaic judaism > rabinnic judaism
and
>Early Second Temple judaism > jewish apocalypticism > the jesus movement > orthodox christianity

Weren't Christians and Jews for the first 200 years of Christianity's existence going back and forth between the two communities? Most of the anti-Christian laws at the time were anti-jewish laws, and the Romans couldn't really distinguish between them that well.

Rabbinical Judaism does indeed seem to be its own separate thing.

>>24786035
Small hat tribe is good at tricks

>>24786520
>Its almost certainly because of its congruence with neoplatonism on major topics
Was neoplatonism even a thing for the lower classes? always seemed like a more philosopher topic compared to the lifestyl philosophies like stoicism and epicureanism which seemed a little more dispersed across the population.

>>24778154 (OP)
Islam comes out of the religion of the second temple period too. Islam and second temple Judaism share roots in the 3rd century CE southern Arabia, and this has been archeologically confirmed. Jews split into Christianity in the Latin West, what is now Judaism in the Aramaic East, and a souther strand of Judaism evolved into Islam.

>>24780307
Missing the extra step of Catholicism with the council of Trent. As it's not the same religion.

>>24787002
From my limited understanding and knowledge, not really. Neoplatonism was seen as being a very, very elite philosophical/spiritual stance. Augustine and Psuedo-Dionysius did most of the synthesizing between the two topics at the upper level.
Christianity spread through the lower echelons of Greek society because of Paul hanging out with serfs in Greece.

So it gained traction with the well to do philosophers because of it matching up so closely with neoplatonism, so much so that it couldn't be ignored (so they say) and among the plebs because of missionary work.

>>24786028
Sad levels of cope

>>24787278
ah, that makes sense on both fronts.

I find the whole period in general fascinating with the various mystery cults and life philosophies going on in the Hellenistic east in particular.

>>24786028
lmfao what a map, why doesn't israel have lebanon yet? no wonder they're getting terrorized with arabs right up there and syria also