Thread 24816688

ἐρώμενος editio

>τὸ πρότερον νῆμα·
>>24763657

>Μέγα τὸ Ἑλληνιστί/Ῥωμαϊστί·
https://mega dot nz/folder/FHdXFZ4A#mWgaKv4SeG-2Rx7iMZ6EKw

>Mέγα τὸ ANE·
https://mega dot nz/folder/YfsmFRxA#pz58Q6aTDkwn9Ot6G68NRg

>Work in progress FAQ
https://rentry dot co/n8nrko

All Classical languages are welcome.

>>24816688 (OP)
In honor of the edition, posting a Classical Chinese poem on a related topic:
>孌童
>作者:蕭綱
> 孌童嬌麗質 踐董復超瑕
> 羽帳晨香滿 珠簾夕漏賒
> 翠被含鴛色 雕牀鏤象牙
> 妙年同小史 姝貌比朝霞
> 袖裁連璧錦 牋織細橦花
> 攬袴輕紅出 廻頭雙鬢斜
> 嬾眼時含笑 玉手乍攀花
> 懷猜非後釣 密愛似前車
> 足使燕姬妒 彌令鄭女嗟

>>24816748
Thread ruined.

>>24816688 (OP)
>ἐρώμενος
Oh shit- no this is what ruined the thread.

>>24816788
The Greeks were, in fact, pretty fucking gay.

>>24816788
>n-no vro yuo don't get it the ancient greeks were BASED and had the exact same morals as me they were BASED bro no they weren't gay vro vro you don't get it vro everyone thought they were straight until the jews brainwashed them in the 20th century vro

>>24816688 (OP)
What is that man holding in his left hand? I can't tell. Is it a walking stick?

>>24816857
>so what if the laws of Lycurgus record that the Spartans executed homos and the Athenians genitally mutilated men who creeped on boys
>so what if the only source for the sacred band of thebes being gay is a Roman secondary source centuries later who said it was uncertain
>they were hippy dippy faggots because my Oxford professor said so and Oxford is a good school so you know it’s true

>>24817317
They were not hippy dippy faggots. But they also did not uniformly condemn all forms of homosexuality at all times and places in the Greek world.

>>24817317
Xenophon also talks about Theban military pederasty. And there are numerous references to Epaminondas’ homosexuality. Also there’s nothing liberal/leftist about institutional homosexuality

>>24817323
>>24817329
Gays have always existed. What has been pushed is that Greeks were particularly more accepting than any other iron age civilization, which I simply have not seen sufficient evidence for outside of the existence of a few rich and powerful pedophiles during the peak of hellenic affluence and degeneracy.

>>24817329
>Xenophon also talks about Theban military pederasty.
No source provided
>And there are numerous references to Epaminondas’ homosexuality.
No source provided. Plus one recorded gay guy ever doesn’t mean the Macedonians sodomized each other all the way to the Indus and back.

>>24817323
Fucking young boys has always been weird and condemned from their time onwards. I have seen no real evidence presented to the contrary beyond aggressively misinterpreting sources and presenting parents being concerned about rich and powerful men acting above the law to abuse boys as some evidence of meaningful acceptance of pedophilia. Which you people call pederasty to obfuscate and mislead the masses through polite semantic precision.

>>24816791
>>24816857
>>24817323
>>24817329

>We all know that it was widespread among the Greeks and Romans, and was publically admitted and practised unabashed. All the authors of antiquity give more than abundant proof of this... The philosophers speak much more of this love than of the love of women... Here in general there is no need for proofs for well-informed readers; they can recall them by the hundred, for with the ancients everything is full of it.
Arthur Schopenhauer, The World as Will and Representation Vol. II, 1844

Ave, puer speciose, qui non queris precium,
Qui te dono conparari summum ducis vicium;
In quo decor et honestas delegit hospicium;
Forma cujus sibi capit oculos spectancium.

Crinis flavus, os decoruın cervixque candidula,
Sermo blandııs et suavis; sed quid laudem singula?
Totııs pulcher et decorus, nec est in te macula;
Sed vaccare castitati talis nequit formula.

Cum natura te creavit, dubitavit paululum
Si proferret te puellam, an proferret masculum;
Sed dum in hoc eligendo mentis figit oculum,
Ecce prodis, in cummune natus ad spectaculum.

Postquam vero tibi manum extremam adibuit,
Est mirata quia talem te creasse potuit;
Sed naturam in hoc solum erravisse patuit,
Quod, cum tanta contulisset, te mortalem statuit.

Tibi nequid conparari quislibet mortalium,
Quem natura sibi fecit singularem filium;
In te sibi pulcritudo legit domicilium,
Cujus nitet caro cara, candens uti lilium.

Crede mihi, si redirent prisca Jovis secula,
Ganimedes jam non foret ipsius vernacula;
Sed tu, raptus in supernis, grata luce pocula,
Gratiora quidem nocte Jovi dares oscula.

Puellarum juvenumque votum extas publicum;
Te suspirant et exoptant quem noverunt unicum.
Errant quidem, inmo peccant qui te vocant Anglicum;
Et vocalem interponant, et dicant angelicum.

>gay erotica which quotes the Canticle of Canticles
>gay erotica which quotes St. Gregory the Great/the Venerable Bede

Faggots used to be awesome.

This thread is about classical languages not about weird sexual practices of the ancient Greeks.

>>24817391
What do you think Alexander and Hephaestion were doing in the horse carriage all that time?

>>24817408
>more cope than twitter commies
Read Plato

easiest way to learn conjugation for greek?

>>24816857
>>24816791

>>24817480
Alexander famously rode Boucephalas.

>>24817829
>King Alexander, too, was quite excessively keen on boys: according to Dicaearchus in On the Sacrifice at Troy, he was so taken with the eunuch Bagoas that under the eyes of the whole theater he bent over to give him a kiss, and when the audience shouted and applauded, he very willingly bent over and kissed him again.
Athenaeus, Deipnosophistae 13.602
>When Alexander arrived at the palace of Gedrosia, he restored the army with a festival. It is said that he got drunk and watched choral competitions. His eromenos Bagoas won in the dancing and he traversed the theater in his costume and sat down beside him. Seeing this, the Macedonians applauded and shouted out, bidding Alexander kiss him, until he embraced him and kissed him deeply
Plutarch, Alexander 67.8
>Alexander laid a wreath on Achilles' tomb and Hephaestion on Patroclus', hinting that he was Alexander's eromenos, as Patroclus was of Achilles.
Aelian, Varia Historia 12.7
>Euxenippus was still very young and a favourite of Alexander's because he was in the prime of his youth, but though he rivaled Hephaestion in good looks he could not match him in charm, since he was rather effeminate.
Curtius, The History of Alexander 7.9.19
>The same lawgiver said: ‘The slave is not to be the lover of a free boy, nor to pursue him, or else he is to receive fifty lashes with the public whip.’ But he did not prevent the free man from being a lover, from associating with or pursuing a boy, nor did he think that this brought harm to the boy, but saw it as a testimony to his self-control.
Aeschines, Against Timarchos 138-9

>>24817451
Which part is quoting the Song of Songs? I'm afraid I don't know my Bible well enough.

>>24816748
How the fuck do you find this shit, thousands of amazing Chinese poets and you managed to find the only massive paedo among them all

>>24817835
>Athenaeus
>Plutarch
>Aelian
>Curtius
Hundreds of years after Alexander
>Aeschines
>but saw it as a testimony to his self-control
implying he knows it to be wrong
There are legitimate sources of Greek faggotry but you failed to produce any of them.

I didn't know /clg/ had so many coping christcucks

>>24818087
>Hundreds of years after Alexander
If you think that's a valid reason to completely dismiss a source you're legitimately retarded

I didn't know /clg/ had so many AIDS-infected faggots who get their backs blown out by Tyrone on the reg trying to justify their depravity by appeal to what Jewish academics say the ancient Greeks did

We only think that the romans and the greeks were fine with homosexuality and pederasty because we only have texts from their declining eras and also exclusively from the upper and upper-middle classes who were historically always more degenerate in their sexual practices, during any era in any society, than the healthy peasants and proles whose work they depdended on. It's as if some historian thousands of years from now on tried to derive what normal people's sexuality was like from sources that exclusively came from bourgeois californians and new yorkers. Of course any society would look degenerate and gay that way.

>>24818111
On the contrary, homosexuality was widespread during the Archaic era of Greece that preceded the Classical era - you can see it in the poetry of Ibycus, Simonides, Anacreon, etc. The most reactionary writer from that period, Theognis, was a full-blown faggot. The conservative revolutionary writer, Hans Blüher, writes:
>One has to realize that the decline of the Greeks and the emergence of samesex love did not temporally coincide. Precisely the opposite occurred: The decline and disapprobation of this so highly cultivated love-directionality played out simultaneously with the decline of Hellas as a historical phenomenon.

>>24818111
So what you're telling me is that the Aryan elite were all fine with homosexuality and the mass of swarthy slaves wasn't? Ok cool bro

>>24818109
>Hitler lectured me on the role of homosexuality in history and politics. It had destroyed ancient Greece, he said. Once rife, it extended its contagious effects like an ineluctable law of nature to the best and most manly of characters, eliminating from the reproductive process those very men on whose offspring a nation depended.
Rudolf Diels, Lucifer Ante Portas, 1950

>>24818095
Provide direct, first hand evidence of Alexander's faggotry.
otherwise yes, I do dismiss 'sources' hundreds of years after the fact

>>24818117
the ancient greeks weren't retarded like modern faggots, so even the biggest boylover kept a foidslave who was never allowed to see the light of day around for reproduction

>>24818122
I was just responding to that anti-fag pic which cited Plutarch too

>>24818114
Yeah, that's why homosexuality is so prevalent in the Iliad and the Odyssey, or why Cato the Elder was such an infamous faggot...oh wait.

Also all of the people you listed were upper class.

>>24818130
>Iliad
Mentions that zesty Ganymede shit
>Cato the Elder
Roman
>all of the people you listed were upper class.
You mean like every Greek anyone knows of

>>24818127
I'm responding to you
Provide direct, first hand evidence of Alexander's faggotry.
Oh wait, you can't. You will never admit it, so go ahead and reply with some backpedaling blubber or snark

>>24818134
I never pretended that I could provide "direct, first hand evidence." I don't believe there is any - apart perhaps from a letter attributed to Diogenes where he chastises Alexander for being too devoted to "Hephaestion's thighs". That's about the only example I can think of. But you've introduced a new standard of evidence. I just think it's funny that the picture selectively quoted Plutarch to portray Alexander as some kind of anti-faggot, when the same source depicts him as publicly enamored of a eunuch.

On the same subject, does anyone have the latin text of Altercatio Ganimedis et Helene? I can’t find it anywhere, only the English translation. It’s in Mittellateinisches Jahrbuch 7 (1972) if there are any unifags who might have access to that here

Greek pederasty was an archaic institution that fell out of what society considered permissible during the classical era, which is what everybody thinks off when you mention ancient Greece and when all the Philosophers and most poets lived.
Roman "pederasty" was just straight up sadistic SM rape.

>This is the great idea of magicians in all times: to obtain a Messiah by some adaptation of the sexual process. In Assyria, they tried incest; also in Egypt, the Egyptians tried brothers and sisters; the Assyrians, mothers and sons. Phoenicians tried fathers and daughters; Greeks and Syrians, mostly bestiality. This idea came from India.
>The Greeks further employed this debased form of their mysteries with the pedicatio puerorum which would go on to influence the Mithraic cult, the Templars, etc.

Gayreeks were pedo furries lmao you can't make this shit up

>>24818258
Negroid sperm ahh quote

>>24818092
Getting sodomized by other men is the Aryan way. (((They))) want you to waste your seed on (((women))) and get trapped into being shackled with offspring instead of conquering new lands and posting on 4chan.

>>24818347
Who said anything about being a pathicus and not having kids

Uh... Classical languages?


I signed out of my pc earlier this morning and just got home it took me like 7 attempts entering my password before it finally let me in. Was really spooky for awhile since I know I 100% entered it correctly every single time

Crazy that this is the first time it has ever happened and it came shortly after W10 security goes away...

>>24817408
Kek this is such a good image because it’s the only time I ever see any sources get brought up. Not to continue shitting up the thread with this, so the only one i’ll point out since I mentioned it previously is the Plutarch quote, since Plutarch was a Roman writing several centuries later, and he clearly says “some say.” There’s any number of reasons the Romans might even outright lie, or any other secondary source.

>>24817835
Oh look 5 secondary sources writing things totally contrary to the character of the man depicted in primary sources. Who would’ve thought.

where did this christcuck magatard tourist come from? is this a poltard raid?

>>24817891
Hey, we’re not the ones exhaustively scouring secondary sources and traveling the world doing speaking events to try to prove “it” through force of institutional weight and cultural pressure more than rigorous skeptical source-analysis (without ever even properly defining the core claim so we can dance around it).

Classicists often make a mockery of the discipline of History.

>>24818452
>secondary sources
>”WOWEE I LOVE HISTORY. BASED!!”
>secondary sources when I'm displeased by the implication
>”Erm you know that the veracity of these is problematic, right sweaty?”

>>24818127
The “anti-fag” pic is a meme and is pro-fag idiot. It’s called a joke.

>>24818095
It is, depending on the context and if it contradicts prior primary sources. That’s just how History works.

>>24817891
>be pedo
>use gay as camo
or is it the same thing?

>>24818471
I don't know you'd have to consult an expert of such things like the christians or republicans

>>24818472
>muh politics
ah let's act like the past decade never happened level 1 retard

>bring up fags in Greece out of the blue
>someone acts skeptical
>spam thread a million times angrily and use adhom when they ask for some strange thing called a “primary source”
>throw a German writing 2300 years later out
>misinterpret a meme and seethe angrily at it that is trying to support my position

You retards brought the subject up out of nowhere, as always. Perhaps it’s my responsibility just to ignore and not respond. Just feels so low-brow to be all
>HURR DURR THE GREEKS LE ALL BUTSECKED
And then spazz out when asked to back that up, or even just to explain what you mean. (By not explaining what they even mean they can constantly redefine their position every time an old one is defeated, because their goal isn’t honest pursuit of history or the classics, it is a feeling of cultural domination.

>>24818457
I feel no particular connection to a bunch of pagans, Christians had every reason even to lie about past civilizations anyways lol, this doesn’t hurt us at all. The past civilization that they conquered also fed Christians to lions and had sex islands. Some of the philosophers being fags is no big deal, I just take issue with how unserious and, well, faggy the manner in which the position is pushed. Just a lot of “my professor said so” and freaking out under the smallest challenge to their “knowledge.”

If that is such a problem, go back to your containment board on /tttt/.

>>24818488
>out of the blue
OP always chooses something random for the thread editio. nobody was spazzing out over the Delphic charioteer in the last thread, but this time he chose “eromenos” and all the magatard christcucks come out of the woodwork seething about how LE GREEKS WERE BASED AND HAD THE SAME MORALS AS A 2025 EVANGELICAL BRO THIS IS PROPAGANDA

>>24818488
go back to pol

>>24818535
(nta)I'm the usual OP, I didn't make this edition

>>24818535
You’re assuming you’re arguing with one anon and responding in such an intentionally dishonest fashion that you’re no longer worth responding to. Please stop shitting up the thread.

>>24818540
You anons brought up politics with >>24816857 You go back.

>>24818543
Is some tranny discord trying to hijack clg?

>>24818557
Can’t wait for the BOS NVBIANVS editio

>>24818557
idk, could be the usual buck broken troll obsessed with the general knowing there would be the usual shitstorm when the topic appears in general on /lit/, I mean I'm fine with it, the OP technically depicts Briseis and pederasty was a thing, albeit the association with "gays" it's kinda retarded since it was much closer to pedofilia and they were fundamentally attracted to feminine attributes, hence the custom stopping at the sign of first beards

Should I actually go giga-nitpick and learn a little Koine Greek and Hebrew to get further understanding of Bible verses?

>>24818566
The cup in the op doesn’t depict Briseis, the painter who made it is called the Briseis painter after one of his more well known works

>>24818567
Grind it out more in Latin.

>>24817834
>famously rode Boucephalas.
In battle by day, but at night he was riding Hephaestion

>>24817981
What is the translation? Not all of us can read classical chinkgook

>There's absolutely nothing in history that suggests greeks were gay!!!
>just ignore the fact that gay relationships were so common that the word lesbian comes from a greek island!

>>24818594
>>just ignore the fact that gay relationships were so common that the word lesbian comes from a greek island!
is that where Opera got her idea for All Girls schools

>>24818594
>one woman on one island might have been gay so I can label an entire thousand-year culture as totally gay

is γυνή/γυναίκές pronounced like goonair or guynair similar to gynecology?

can't seem to be able to find a good place that has pronunciations

>>24818708
υ = ee in meet but with your lips rounded
η = e in bed but long

>not doing any exercises
>just doing readers
Am I missing out on anything? I guess I don't feel like I can compose anything. Also i don't think Inwill learn accents properly this way

>>24818488
>posting primary sources without comment = "my professor said so"

>>24818593
I don't think there's an English translation, and I don't want to translate it myself. I think you genuinely have to be a bit of a paedophile to find poems like that, it's really not mainstream in China or the west.

>>24818820
No primary source quotations re:fags in Greece have been posted
You don't know what a secondary source is

>>24817451
>In quo decor et honestas delegit hospicium;
It seems like the meter here calls for the stress to be on the first syllable, but when I look it up it's on the second because it's long.

>>24818567
Yes. (Learning Hebrew also means you have access to a lot more firsthand information about the reality on the ground in Israel without having to trust media and translators, if it matters.)

>>24818831
I'm the person who posted about it, I learned about it from a friend who studies Classical Chinese and is gay, at some point he went looking for CC texts dealing in some way with the subject of homosexuality. It was also from him that I learned of 詠少年 by 吳均.

>>24817323
Some of them were DEFINITELY hippie dippie.

>>24817385
They lived in a leisurely land and had high wealth. That alone is going to make some things happen.

>>24818708
γυνή is pronounced like gynhee or guynhee
>>24818731
υ=y
ή=hee

>>24819864
geenee
(hard g)

>>24819871
This is Classical thread is it not?
It may have hard g but Upsalon should not pronounce the same as heta.

>>24818708
/ɡy.nɛ̌ː/
see: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:International_Phonetic_Alphabet

>>24819884
ee ee ee ee ee ee ee ee

>>24819864
Specifically y as in Finnish y, like French u or German ü.

>>24819924
German like in English rhu? So γυνή would sound in English as guhnee or
>>24819897
Hghuhnee? (Flowing subtle g)

>>24819940
Please just learn the fucking IPA. There are some good YouTube videos on it and it makes trying to talk about pronunciation over text infinitely less frustrating.

>>24818087
Great men have always been gay. When you get to be at the top of the hierarchy, anything goes

>>24819940
If you click on the IPA symbols in the link I just provided, you'll find audio recordings for each of them. You'll find your answers there.
If that's too hard for you, watch those videos :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS5POB2rLsw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzn9PZ2SFWE

>>24819946
Talk it up for me a bit. First off, this is a classical thread and modern Greek is different. Secondly is iPad universal, as in any starting letter followed by another letter makes a unique sounds of its own?
Thirdly, if there's one thing Wikipedia sucks at its the pronunciation method it uses. The example format is atrocious and its further descriptions read like sparse computer programmers afterthoughts.
I would learn it for modern Greek but not for classical if it doesn't apply. Meaning its some modern language helper.

>>24819965
>Talk it up for me a bit. First off, this is a classical thread and modern Greek is different.
Yes, we are talking about ancient Greek pronunciation. In modern Greek it would be /ʝiˈni/, with ʝ representing the sound of Spanish Y.
>Secondly is iPad universal, as in any starting letter followed by another letter makes a unique sounds of its own?
I don't understand your phrasing, but the IPA is universal, yes.

>>24819960
>trusting what caillou says

>>24820018
You may dislike him personally, but when it comes to ancient Greek pronunciation he knows what he's talking about.

>>24820021
except he's not Greek so no he doesn't

>>24820026
Why must one be Greek to know what one is talking about in regards to ancient Greek pronunciation, especially when Greek pronunciation has changed so much since ancient times?

>>24820034
Because it hasn't changed so there's no reason to listen to people who use (((Anglo))) "scientifically reconstructed" pronunciation, only modern Greeks or fluent speakers of modern Greek.

>>24820021
What dialect?

>>24819761
the song of the yue boatman is gay enough

>>24820044
There is no language on Earth that is pronounced exactly the same today as it was 2,500 years ago, and Greek is not an exception.
>>24820045
Classical Attic and Koine mainly, I think.

>>24820054
>There is no language on Earth that is pronounced exactly the same today as it was 2,500 years ago, and Greek is not an exception.
Yeah it is. We just built different

>>24820065
So why did the ancient Greeks invent six different ways to spell /i/, somehow keep which words used which straight before dictionaries let alone spell checkers, and then start mixing them up at different times (mixing up ει with ι starting to appear before the confusion of η with either, and υ and οι being the last to start getting mixed up with them)?

>>24820075
Because before the time of classical Attic these were different sounds but by classical times the pronunciations ossified and became still what we have now.

>>24820081
and second point so stupid? even illiterate retard greeks nowadays can keep words with similar sounds separate without dictionary why could not Plato and other geniuses

>>24820081
So you think that it was pronounced differently at some point but most of the sound shifts happened way earlier than we think? So why did the Romans transliterate φ as ph when they already had f, or transliterate η and υ differently than ι (while having no issue transliterating ει the same)?

>>24820090
why should i give a fuck a single fuck a bunch of non-greeks write greek why don't you ask ngubu in nigeria to write greek too that's how modern greek must be then i guess? yeah exactly

>>24819946
You seem like an esl. Nothing wrong with that but im still not sure what point you were making about the word pronunciation.
>>24820054
Attic made Koine made Modern.
Doric was the dialect of Major shrines and Olympics in classical Greece.
>>24820075
If you read old English spelling wasn't really totally standardized before the 20th century. That's what happens before standardized dictionarys are sent to everyone and mass media tech becomes commonplace. Just imagine it, the freedom to write as you alone see fit.
And yes classical and ancient Greek were much more polytonic than today.

>>24820106
This is a CLASSICAL Greek thread. On an American image board. We're not going to Greece to tell them they're saying it wrong. Don't make us say mean things.

>>24820115
I assume these threads are mostly filled by Europeans

>>24820106
Why exactly do you think it occurred to them to transliterate two letters with the exact same sound differently?
>>24820108
>You seem like an esl.
It's my first language.
>im still not sure what point you were making about the word pronunciation.
My point is that without some standard universal system like the IPA it's frustrating to try to communicate about pronunciation over text.
>If you read old English spelling wasn't really totally standardized before the 20th century.
Yes, and similarly in Greek- but there are types of spelling variation you do and don't see.

What's your favourite graffiti from Pompeii?
Picrel is mine.

Greek in Byzantine mosaics are so cool

>>24819761
ok so that's the excuse he gave you for knowing about the serving boy paedo shi instead of any of the other thousands of poems about being gay

>>24820758
I don't know that that's all that he knew about, that was just one of the ones he shared with me when the topic came up. What other ones do you know of, though? I'd be very much interested.

ἀπιστώτατον τοῖς πολλοῖσιν εἴη κεν τὴν ῥᾳδιότητα τοῦ /κλγ/ σκώπτειν αἰεὶ κατὰ τὥμοια φλυαρήματα

>>24816748
machine translation
> catamite >Author: Xiao Gang > The beauty of the child is super flawed > The feather tent is full of morning fragrance, and the pearl curtain leaks in the evening > The emerald quilt contains mandarin color, and the carved bed is carved with ivory > Miao Nian and Xiao Shi are more beautiful than the morning glow > Sleeve cut Lianbi brocade Woven fine mullet flowers > The pants are lightly red, and the temples are slanted > smiles when she squints her eyes, and her jade hands are just picking up flowers > Huai guessed that it was not a post-fishing secret love like a car in front of it > is enough to make Yan Ji jealous and make Zheng Nu sigh

>This dissertation focuses on an emperor-poet, Xiao Gang (503-551, r. 550-551), who lived during a period called the Six Dynasties in China. He was born a prince during the Liang Dynasty, became Crown Prince upon his older brother's death, and eventually succeeded to the crown after the Liang court had come under the control of a rebel. He was murdered by the rebel before long and was posthumously given the title of "Emperor of Jianwen" by his younger brother Xiao Yi (508-554). Xiao's writing of amorous poetry was blamed for the fall of the Liang Dynasty by Confucian scholars, and adverse criticism of his so-called "decadent" Palace Style Poetry has continued for centuries.

>>24821274
Feeding Classical Chinese into a Mandarin -> English translator and expecting the result to make sense is like feeding Latin into an Italian -> English translator and expecting the result to make sense.

>>24821657
post your translation or shut the fuck up

>>24818816
>>not doing any exercises
bad boy

so for those who have surpassed textbooks and midwit readers, what'chu be readin tho fr fr

>>24817451
https://voca.ro/1obUNK74ZMdB

>>24823124
I slowed down from the time when I put more effort daily but I'm still trying to get something done every day, right now a bit of Plato every day and weekly readings of Seneca and composition on the Porticus

Beginning Latin
John Edmund Barss
https://archive.org/details/beginninglatin00bars

First Latin Lessons
Harry Fletcher Scott, Annabel Horn
https://archive.org/details/firstlatinlesson0000harr

Latin For Today
Mason D. Gray, Thornton Jenkins
https://archive.org/details/latinfortodayfir0000gray

>>24820065
lol, enjoy reading poetry with no meter because modern Greek doesn't distinguish vowel length.

>>24819726
Rhythmical poetry in Medieval Latin is based on syllable count rather than longs and shorts, so the stressed and unstressed syllables don't need to correspond to longs and shorts; you read it like >>24823423 does here.

What do you guys think of this ancient Greek text

>>24823499
>Plato every day
>weekly readings of Seneca
drop some gems

>>24823731
>stressed and unstressed syllables don't need to correspond to longs and shorts
The same holds true for Classical poetry

>>24823740
berry nice, I remember, I think it was either Xenophon or Plutarch in the life of Lycurgus, Spartans being instructed from youth to also get used to always be barefoot

>>24823771
VGH....

>>24823763
The OP claimed the second syllable should be stressed because it's long. You're right it wouldn't work like that in classical poetry either

Which book is recommended as the first book for Ancient Greek?

TOWARDS ATHENS
ATHENAZE

Will reading a book on Middle English adequately prepare me for EME writers like Shakespeare and Milton, or am I better off just reading a book on EME?

>>24823874
Before anyone tells me to fuck off, I would've asked /lang/, but they don't appeal to my brand of autism whereas this general does.

>>24823874
Just go fucking read Shakespeare and use your brain

Macrons are detrimental to learning progress and should be banished from all Latin textbooks except dictionaries.

short bus niggas be like

>>24823987
i've been learning for 5 years and still don't know any lengths

>>24823874
Retard or esl?

Just started learning Ancient Greek with Logos Lingua Graeca Per Se Illustrata. Took a very long time to work my way through the first two sentences. Remains to be seen if I'll stick with this book. Ι'm now trying to make sense of the instructions in the first few pages. I don't think the natural method works for a language like this. Also I don't know if I could have figured out what "εστιν" (estin) meant if I hadn't read some of Familia Romana and seen the similarity to "est".

https://libgen.li/edition.php?id=146575969

https://www.amazon.com/Logos-Lingua-Graeca-%CE%9B%CF%8C%CE%B3%CE%BF%CF%82-%E1%BC%99%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%AE/dp/8494534661

>>24823124
Sallust’s Bellum Catilinae

>>24824034
aren't you expected to use a dictionary using a book like this...? that's what i've been doing.

>>24824034
Just use Assimil. Don't know why people make it harder on themselves than needed. There are better methods for autodidacts than the natural method for fucking Ancient Greek.

>>24824184
No, you're supposed to infer the meaning of words, they call it induction. Kind of overrated method though in my opinion. I use google translate to get transliteration and pronunciation, but I position the window so that the translation part is outside the screen.

It’s up

>>24824217
Honestly idgaf what this thread says I’m gonna drop $50 on the new Ranieri Greek course. He clearly knows his shit

>>24824196
The natural method works if you’re not retarded
εστιν = est = ist = is etc.
If you didn’t realize that within like 10 seconds of starting you’re not cut out for ancient Greek

>>24824034
try athenaze and see what you think

i do think logos starts a bit more difficult at first

>>24824228
And what about when he inevitably gets stuck and can't figure it out? Why is an answer key / translation necessarily bad?

I'm just skeptical of autodidacts using methods where they don't have recourse to explanations when needed. Natural method works better under the guidance of a teacher facilitating it.

Also, I hope he's using audio because it's vital for developing a correct inner voice and getting a feel for the pronunciation.

Is there a dictionary type app like yomichan for greek?

>>24824138
ayyyyyye

>>24824569
https://latin-dict.github.io/list_greek.html

>>24823995
was this a good movie?

>>24823731
Not directly, but the penultimate will be stressed if it's historically long and unstressed otherwise. And I'm the same person who read it; I decided to bend the expected stress to follow the meter.

>>24823987
Why?

>>24824201
>I use google translate to get transliteration and pronunciation
Why the fuck would you do that?! You can learn the alphabet in like a day.

>>24823124
I'm still a midwit :(

>>24824699
>>24824699
Macrons are an insidious type of training wheels. The theory of training wheels is that, before you can balance on a bike, they guide you to the correct position in which a bike is normally ridden and prevent you from falling. When you’re ready, you take them off, and while you might fall a few times, in short time you’re fine because they’re designed to reinforce the true way to ride a bike. Macrons aren’t reinforcing in the way training wheels are. They ossify a distinct style of reading which must be forgotten, and a new one learned, if one ever wants to leave them behind.

>>24824760
wrong

>>24824760
So how should one learn which vowels are long? It is a phonemic distinction.

>>24824791
Dictionaries and reading aloud. Anything worth reading is worth reading aloud.

>>24824804
What, just look up the lengths for every individual word?

>>24824724
I started learning Greek today.

>>24824809
Why wouldn't you take the few hours at the beginning to learn the alphabet?

>>24823987
Who cares about vowel length, it's a language for reading and writing, not speaking and listening.

>>24824812
There are minimal pairs, and it's critical for poetic meter.

>>24824569
yes, it's called yomichan with greek dictionaries. i can help you with setup if you need. I also created a dictionary the other day i can share

>>24824811
This is one way to learn the alphabet. I look at the alphabet chart too, but this drills it, no reason to sit there and do flashcards or whatever. I also typed out the first two sentences of the text by looking at the alphabet chart. But then when reading the cryptic text in the first few pages preceding the actual text I couldn't be bothered with that and instead copy pasted the words into google translate but positioned the window so I only saw the transcription and could get the audio for the pronunciation. What's the problem?

Besides if it's going to be a natural method book this makes it more of that. Pretty soon I'm not going to need it. But I'm learning many languages simultaneously, beginner in all, possibly advanced beginner in one, and I copy paste text into google translate for pronunciation frequently, again what's the problem?

Also people seem to think Hans Ørberg invented the natural method, he didn't, it's questionable if he even did it best, but I don't know anyone else who did it for Latin, and besides I think this method is probably more suited for vernacular languages, which he probably thought too, because he published dozens of complementary materials, which you need after a while. There's really nothing special about the natural method, it's just a graded reader, and readers should be a complement to other things, not the only thing you use.

Also, this method with google translate gives you more than just learning the alphabet, pronunciation of words is something you're still learning long after you learned the alphabet, every new word you learn at any stage you need to learn the pronunciation, and all this does is tell you the pronunciation.

>>24824831
I didn't expect Yomitan to actually have an option for an ancient greek dictionary

The one it recommended is a dictionary based off of wiktionary. Is this one fine?

>>24824224
my consoldences

>>24824817
Anyway macrons were for back when people didn't have google translate text-to-speech, and narration audio. I have paid no attention to vowel length yet, but I'm probably learning it anyway just from using those tools. But yeah if rhymes are your interest then probably focus on vowel length. As for heteronyms, pronunciation doesn't disambiguate them anyway in written language.

>>24823749
for Plato I haven't read much yet, I like it when he(Socrates) goes into myths, the last part of Phaedo in particular
of Seneca we've been reading the letters to Lucilius, we did 21 so far, I do like them because they are repetitive but in a way that is good to digest the Stoic mentality

>>24824034
I'm under the impression that Logos is meant to be used in a classroom. It has too much unexplained stuff going on in later chapters.

>>24824890
>Anyway macrons were for back when people didn't have google translate text-to-speech
I'm pretty sure that uses Ecclesiastical pronunciation, and as such doesn't observe vowel length.

>>24824807
Yes. Deal with it.

>>24824934
Familia Romana can't really be used without complementary materials either. As for teachers, who needs them.

>>24824935
Alright. I just haven't cared about vowel length yet, but maybe I will later on. It doesn't seem like something that's essential in the first stages of learning. French also has very complex rules for liaison but at my stage of French I stick to "liaison before vowel sound, no liaison before consonant sound, exception for the word "et" and proper nouns which never have liaison". Just saying you need to focus on the important stuff which is appropriate for your level, vowel length seems nonessential at the beginner level.

>>24824919
>brainwashing yourself consciously
good good but do drop some gems eventually to warrant your labor

idgaf about vowel lengths and neither should you
ecclesiasticalchads RISE UP

>>24824873
>I didn't expect Yomitan to actually have an option for an ancient greek dictionary
It does! But it's just the wiktionary one.

>The one it recommended is a dictionary based off of wiktionary. Is this one fine?

I have only just started learning, so not sure if I can really evaluate it fairly. It has plenty of vocabulary but it does lack a lot of declined/conjugated forms, which can be a little bit annoying.

I think wiktionary also usually provides the stressed (accented) and unstressed form as well.

The dictionary I generated from another dictionary contains other conjugated/declined forms, which is kind of nice. That said I'm at baby level of learning so it's not that important at this point for me.

On a very quick test, I just scanned down a list of 50 or so terms at logeion, and a lot of them showed up in the morphological dictionary, but didnt show up in wiktionary, for example.

https://logeion.uchicago.edu/%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%B3%CE%BF%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%B9%CF%8C%CF%82

>>24823124
I grind the vulgate because it’s 700,000 words long and readable early.

>>24823124
I'm moving slowly through Augustine's Confessions

lingua latina per se illustrata

familia romana
https://archive.org/details/familia-romana

audio
https://archive.org/details/familia-romana-and-colloquia-personarum-audio-files
>>>/t/1344565

exercitia latina
https://dn721508.ca.archive.org/0/items/lingua-latina-per-se-illustrata_202506/Lingua%20Lat%C4%ABna%20per%20s%C4%93%20ill%C5%ABstr%C4%81ta/Pars%20I/Exercitia%20Lat%C4%ABna%20I.pdf

colloquia personarum
https://dn721508.ca.archive.org/0/items/lingua-latina-per-se-illustrata_202506/Lingua%20Lat%C4%ABna%20per%20s%C4%93%20ill%C5%ABstr%C4%81ta/Pars%20I/Suppl%C4%93menta/%C3%98rberg%2C%20Colloquia%20pers%C5%8Dn%C4%81rum.pdf

neumann companion
https://leftychan.net/edu/src/1608528074592-0.pdf

student's manual
https://libgen.li/edition.php?id=136567228

fabellae latinae
https://dn721508.ca.archive.org/0/items/lingua-latina-per-se-illustrata_202506/Lingua%20Lat%C4%ABna%20per%20s%C4%93%20ill%C5%ABstr%C4%81ta/Pars%20I/Suppl%C4%93menta/%C3%98rberg%2C%20F%C4%81bellae%20Lat%C4%ABnae.pdf

grammatica latina
https://libgen.li/edition.php?id=136567219

answer key
https://dn721508.ca.archive.org/0/items/lingua-latina-per-se-illustrata_202506/Lingua%20Lat%C4%ABna%20per%20s%C4%93%20ill%C5%ABstr%C4%81ta/Teacher%27s%20Materials.pdf

glossarium
https://ia801807.us.archive.org/29/items/lingualatinalatinbooks/Lingua%20Latina%20-%20Glossarium%20Pars%20I.pdf

indices (bold number: chapter, regular number: line)
https://ia601807.us.archive.org/29/items/lingualatinalatinbooks/Lingua%20Latina%20-%20Indices.pdf

significatio verborum
archive.org/download/lingua-latina-per-se-illustrata_202506/Lingua%20Latīna%20per%20sē%20illūstrāta/Pars%20I/Significātiō%20verbōrum.pdf

Latin-English vocabulary
https://hackettpublishing.com/pdfs/Familia_Romana_Latin-English_Vocabulary.pdf
https://hackettpublishing.com/pdfs/LinguaLatina_Colloquia_Personarum_Vocabulary.pdf
https://hackettpublishing.com/pdfs/FabellaeLatinae_2016_HansOrberg.pdf
https://chaharrah.tv/chaharrah-depot/arthouse/latin-attachments/latin-dictionary.pdf
https://libgen.li/edition.php?id=136632557
https://libgen.li/edition.php?id=136632555
https://libgen.li/edition.php?id=136167095

does anyone have a download for Heliodorus’ Day?

learn to read latin
https://archive.org/details/lingualatinalatinbooks/Learn%20to%20Read%20Latin%20-%20Keller%20%26%20Russell%20-%20Textbook

reading latin
https://archive.org/details/lingualatinalatinbooks/Reading%20Latin%20-%20Jones%20%26%20Sidwell%20-%20Text%20and%20Vocabulary/

Nova Exercitia Latina

https://www.amazon.com/Nova-exercitia-Latina-discipulorum-illustrata/dp/B00T72FJCG

https://libgen.li/edition.php?id=138280227

https://libgen.li/edition.php?id=142156856

>>24824812
>what is meter
Imagine learning Latin to read prose and not the sublime poetry written in it.

Translation challenge:

Easy
Where is the market?
His beard was long.
Watch out for snakes!

Medium
Would you consider accompanying her?
Ask him if he's going to betray the prince.
I wouldn't buy that sword if my life depended on it.

Hard
The ship approaching us seemed on first sight to be merely a transport vessel seeking to make friendly contact but upon getting closer revealed itself to be a wondrous enemy contraption which, upon closing the distance, was able to sink our ship without giving us the chance to counterattack. I'm lucky to be alive to tell the tale.

>>24824807
He didn't do that, just another weird pseudo-snob flex, ignore him

>>24826132
You don’t need vowel lengths to read poetry. All the readings of Latin poetry I’ve seen that obsess over it have sucked
It didn’t actually matter just like nobody reads English poetry with attention to stressed and unstressed syllables

>>24826387
>It didn’t actually matter just like nobody reads English poetry with attention to stressed and unstressed syllables
speak for yourself mental midget

>>24826393
Lol I never want to see you recite Shakespeare if you read him like you do Latin poetry
Aaaaarrrrma virruummmmmque cannnooooo

>>24826407
those exaggerations are only done by those who use training wheels

are accents in greek one of those things that you should learn, but where it's best to think about them as something you just learn over time rather than cramming them?

For example unlike declensions, I assume the patterns and rules take a long time to internalize, and it's better to learn them somewhat passively through reading writing and not via spending tons of time "practicing" accents

>>24826441
I'd say no, it's one of those things, being phonetic, where developing bad habits early on is bad, imho one should be patient and try to get it reasonably right from the beginning, you don't have to perfect it from the start but still

>>24826441
>are accents in greek one of those things that you should learn, but where it's best to think about them as something you just learn over time rather than cramming them?
I'm not convinced any of them know what the accents are supposed to sound like. They can't decide between stress or pitch. There's always some asshole that gives a lengthy speech about one or the other, but when you ask for an example they contradict themselves. Some of the stress marks are downright inscrutable. You'll even see macrons over falling pitch and circumflex marks, and it's clear that when 19th century classicists didn't know what to do they just threw a circumflex at the least offensive vowel. Reading over Dionysius Thrax' basic rules he said there were three accents used over words. He didn't say every single word- but that's the direction classicists went. And we've been suffering ever since.

Can anyone recommend a good overview/introduction to Greek (and Roman) mythology that preferably is available online? Thanks.

>>24826520
No. Figure it out.

>>24826441
modern Greek pronuncation chads have no worries of this matter

>>24826520
stephen fry mythos

>>24826529
you're laziness kills the flow

>>24826529
>modern Greek pronuncation
You can really feel the Arabic in it.

>>24826529
Finally someone sensible in this thread

meenin aeede thea Peeleeeiadoo Ahileeeos
oulomeneen hee meeri Ahaiois alge etheeke

minin aïðe thea
Reminder this is how Plato would have pronounced it

Th or t with a breathed h?

which way /clg/?

th + pronouncing the iota subscript for that special sauce

I'm working through some questions in Athenaze and was wonder

I'm meant to translate the sentence "He is lazy" and so I have the answer αργεί εστιν but checking the answer in two different places have it as ἀργός ἐστιν.

Am I wrong? doesn't the 2nd answer not actually indicate who is lazy? Or are there just multiple valid answers that you can give?

>>24826797
>αργεί
where tf are you getting this form?
ἀργός ἐστιν is correct

>>24826797
ἀργός is not a verb, and does not conjugate for person.

>>24826806
Oops I see the problem now. My brain randomly made me think lazy was a verb and so I googled that form and saw a wiktionary page come up and thought it was real

>>24826824
I mean there is the verb ἀργέω derived from that adjective but here it wouldn't exactly be appropriate as in the present(thus imperfective aspect) it means "he is being idle"

>>24826797
Brvh

>>24826428
post vocaroo of first 11 lines of Aeneid

>>24826520
Bullfinch's Mythology. It is free at the usual places

>>24827303
Terrible advice. He should go with Apollodorus.

>>24827303
Seconding this, it's decent. There are also some older ones on Librivox that are aimed at children a century or more ago, so they are roughly PhD level writing by today's standards. I used those to learn a lot of the more obscure myths.

>>24827300
as if I would ever grace your ears with my voice faggot

>>24827328
>I used those to learn a lot of the more obscure myths
Those are the ones that get scuffed though.

>>24826387
They still pronounce the words with the stresses in the right place because they're fluent speakers of the language, which creates an audible effect of meteredness.

>>24826536
How is modern Greek phonology anything like Arabic phonology?

>>24826183
κοῦ 'στ' ἡ ἀγορή;
δολιχὸν πώγων' ἴσχεν
εὐλαβεῦ τοὺς ὄφεας!

παρακολουθοίης κ' ἀυτῇ;
ἐπειρώτα μιν εἰ μέλλῃ τὸν δυνάστην προδιδόναι
κεἴ ἡ ἐμὴ ψυχὴ ἔν οἱ κέοιτ', οὔ κ' ἐκεῖνο τὸ ξίφος πριαίμην

ἐδόκεε πρῶτον τὸ ἡμῖν ἐπερχόμενον πλοῖον οὐδὲν ἄλλ' ἢ φόρτιον μέλλον φιλικῶς συνάπτειν ἀλλ' ὠς ἐγγυτέρω 'χόρησεν πολεμίη μηχανή τις θωμαστὴ 'φάνη ἥ πρόσω προσμείξασα τὴν ἡμετέρην νᾶυν κατέδυσεν πρὶν δύνασθαι ἡμἐας ἀνθίστασθαι· εὐδαίμων ἐγὼ περιγεγενημένος ὅκως τὸν λόγον ἀπαγγέλλω

>>24826183
市于何处?
其须长也
idk, there is no good way to translate this.

子宁跟乎?
询叛否公
吾莫买此剑也

近此之舟,似运物舟,欲会,而近乎见敌之状械。近而沉舟,无时攻之。幸未死,告之矣。

Latin bros… what is the consensus on Luke Ranieri???

>>24827725
Semites didn't have vowels so when rural speakers pronounced words they added -e gliding to everything they didn't know. Ottoman Greeks (Arabs) do the same thing with the short i sound. They also imported the semkat s sound, which southern Spanish speakers use. Both algot Arab'd.

>>24828956
A beginner I see.

>>24828956
>idk, there is no good way to translate this.
Qvid?

>>24829703
Both Miller and Rapieri give psychopath ngl

>>24829972
quod calvitium nigro facit

>majoring in classics
>interested in linguistic parts
>majority of programme is history
>ancient greek prof doesnt even teach or care, just assigns translation passages from random chapters
>am too retarded to figure it out on own
its so over

>>24829972
>give
Go back

>>24830135
Ok give examples

>>24830135
This is why scouting universities before entering them is important. Classics is a broad discipline. Finding departments and professors whose interests align with yours is key to getting the most out of it.

>>24829805
Yes
If I made any mistakes you could help by pointing them out

>>24829703
A bit grandiose, but a model autodidact who gives good advice for beginners.

>>24830271
No I don't know any west Korean, I'm here to be a goober

>Estne femina Iulia? Non femina, sed parva puella est Iulia.
Why is it not:
>Estne Iulia femina?

>>24830406
>Why is it not:
>>Estne Iulia femina?
It could be. Are you an attention whore?

>>24830414
>Are you an attention whore?
I'm homosexual.