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Thread 24848780

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Anonymous No.24848780 [Report] >>24848820 >>24849001 >>24849931 >>24849960 >>24850094 >>24853989 >>24854887
Do people in America even read novels?
Women seem to be the predominant readers and it seems predominantly porn for them. If men read books it's predominantly long-running sci-fi series.

I've had success and interest in readership but it's not sci-fi (Epic fantasy) and my most success wasn't even a proper novel but a comic. The problem is comics are pretty much dead as well for English speaking countries. Am I wrong or do I need to start prioritizing different countries?
Anonymous No.24848820 [Report] >>24848936 >>24854660
>>24848780 (OP)
the market is quite literally dead if you're not a smut writer. wait a couple of decades and hope things get better.
Anonymous No.24848936 [Report] >>24848943 >>24855499
>>24848820
>wait a couple of decades
In a couple of decades the average normgroid will be completely illiterate
Anonymous No.24848943 [Report]
>>24848936
a liter dont make me ill gayboy
you have a weak tummy gayboy
Anonymous No.24848957 [Report] >>24848968
no one wants to read realist fiction, at the very least it needs to be speculative fiction or romance or something with a niche that has things you know you will like. otherwise why would you even know it exists?
Anonymous No.24848968 [Report] >>24849004
>>24848957
It's very idealistic and has romance, but it's comparatively small and scale and focused more on small characters and barbarian conquests rather than large scale warfare. If I were to guess my biggest issue though it's that the Greek and Persian empires and terminologies are not interesting to the average American alongside the type of character focused writing being not as appealing to autists than ones that focus on intricate world-building. I don't think men outside of dedicated nerds even read novels in the US.
Anonymous No.24849001 [Report] >>24849952
>>24848780 (OP)
A lot has changed in 25 years. Harry Potter into The Hunger Games, Twilight into 50 shades, social media and Amazon, and most importantly for men reading, video games. Genre fiction has been entirely subsumed by franchisable genre fiction. The midlist is gone. Female porn went mainstream and, predictably, took over almost the entire market. And the geniuses of the ivory tower like David Mitchell are deplatformed unless grandfathered in. Literary fiction is exclusively interracial lesbians fleeing oppression or fighting the institutional racism of whites. McCarthy would have zero chance of getting published today. We haven't even touched on AI or the fact that 4 million books were uploaded to Amazon last year.


In essence, you're likely doing nothing wrong. You're just playing the old game. Though you must acknowledge, character driven storytelling has never topped charts in any form of media. Your characters can be cardboard cut-outs and you can still be the biggest selling author of all time if you have a killer hook in the form of a mystery, a timeless debate like faith vs reason and end every chapter on a cliffhanger.

All this to say, if I were you, I wouldn't be too granular in my self-assessment. You're probably a good writer. It's probably not your work. All you can do is write, market, write, market, write, market. The main thing for success being market. Look at Audra Winter, if you can without throwing up.
Anonymous No.24849004 [Report] >>24849702
>>24848968
i read novels for example but you know what? i went the the store the last time i wanted to buy one and it wasn't even in stock. so i listened to the audiobook, which was free through a sub. it was a good book but the author only has two books. so if i want more i have to wait. also, if you go to a library the waiting list for new books is usually quite long. personally i think you went too far in the niche direction maybe. i kind of meant more, it needs to be realist but have soft elements of a niche thing. it also REALLY helps if it's an established IP but that's out of your control
if people liked you comic, why not focus on that instead of a novel? i know this is /lit/ but you seem to have found success. you can also write a novel when you have even more comic success and maybe more people will read it then? there's a lot of reasons to have hope.
Anonymous No.24849702 [Report]
>>24849004
>personally i think you went too far in the niche direction maybe. i kind of meant more, it needs to be realist but have soft elements of a niche thing
It's somewhere in the middle. I find going too in-depth into politics (especially Byzantine politics) way too convoluted and would just drag the story down since I want to focus more on the morality and "nobleness" of characters like many classical epics.
>if people liked you comic, why not focus on that instead of a novel? i know this is /lit/ but you seem to have found success.
I've had some success but I'm learning to have success requires you to move or disassociate from the US because comics are in a worse state than novels here. You can get some success getting involved in counter-culture superhero stuff but that's basically what comics are associated as. I'd need to find contacts that would help me stick a footing and properly visit places like Greece, West/Central Asia, and Japan. They still seem to have a semblance of an interest in this type of stuff novel or comics, and I think Japan even has a specific type of book format designed for train reading.
Anonymous No.24849931 [Report]
>>24848780 (OP)
Novels can be science fiction though?
Anonymous No.24849952 [Report] >>24850207
>>24849001
So basically, if you're actually in it for art, just keep making the best possible work you can?
I'm not saying never try to make a dollar, of course, but you shouldn't let yourself be discouraged by something as small as the market being fucking insane (at the moment)?
Anonymous No.24849960 [Report] >>24850000 >>24850073 >>24850098 >>24850138 >>24854696
>>24848780 (OP)
>Women seem to be the predominant readers
A fake stat that no one has ever provided proof for.
https://www.vox.com/culture/392971/men-reading-fiction-statistics-fact-checked
Anonymous No.24850000 [Report]
>>24849960
It also doesn't help that most people in academia (and thus most commonly published research) are probably of a leftist and authoritarian bent.
Anonymous No.24850073 [Report] >>24852249
>>24849960
>posts link to a paywalled article as source
Might not have even bothered to post it.
Anonymous No.24850094 [Report] >>24850207
>>24848780 (OP)
They stopped publishing literature that would have any appeal to men, which is why men don't read.
Like you said, men still read classic SciFi and lots of men are reading Marcus Aurelius etc. The desire to read is there but the material is lacking.

That said, we have many centuries of literature. maybe it's time for better reading lists and a self-curated male literary community.
Anonymous No.24850098 [Report] >>24850207 >>24851758
>>24849960
This is simply a phenomenon of 99% of published material being targeted at women and then women becoming the primary consumers of that material.
Anonymous No.24850138 [Report] >>24850209 >>24851758 >>24851980
>>24849960
This article brings up a lot of the points I was going to ITT, namely that women have ALWAYS been the primary consumers of novels and fiction since as far back as novels first became a popular publishing format in the 19th century. Even in the 1800s the perception was that novels were womanly, and men should read nonfiction instead. This was a very archaic mode of thinking that modernism, ironically enough, fought back against, turning fiction writing and reading into masculine pursuits. The authors picked to champion this new masculine wave of fiction were often not very popular in their own day, and relied on the support of academic and cultural institutions to be given outsized importance in the literary canon. Point in fact: most people do not read James Joyce by choice, they're shoved toward Joyce by promoting him as somebody who ought to be read by "serious readers of fiction" (a concept that did not exist before the 20th century, mind you). In fact, Joyce had trouble even finding a publisher willing to take Ulysses, and he was actually sued for trying to publish "obscenity" over it. It was a book so unpopular publishers didn't even want to print it. This is an extreme example of what I'm talking about, but a lot of the masculine literary canon is along the same lines of less widely read books selected for ideological and cultural reasons rather than reflecting the readership's interests or the broader cultural moment. These are not books which reflect the zeitgeist, but rather the intellectual preoccupations of academia.

So we get to this farcical panic over "men not reading fiction". Why is men continuing to snub fiction, as their own great great grandfathers did, such a problem? It just smacks of 20th century academia wailing and gnashing its teeth over its lost influence over the mainstream culture.
Anonymous No.24850207 [Report] >>24850226 >>24850257
>>24849952
>>24850094
I might be too influenced by the idea that making money has value, admittedly. I simply assumed that television and that the proliferation of smartphones has meant that's what most youth spend their free time watching fiction instead of reading. Nerds who actually are interested go mostly into sci-fi which covers the mechanical itch really well.

Still, publishers seem to have a bias towards females like >>24850098 said and not even females who are interested in stories but simply sexual fantasies. The funny part is I'm not trying to pander to men (my main character is a woman praised for her wisdom and charitable heart) just the females prioritized are ones that don't care about heroism. My assumption that I should prioritize other countries and then return to the US still seems more probable to success although my reasoning may have initially been wrong.
Anonymous No.24850209 [Report] >>24850335 >>24850628 >>24851758
>>24850138
I was just thinking this. How literature, even Hemingway, has a weird kind of "metrosexuality" a kind of homosexualized masculinity that ends up existing as the female mind's definition of masculinity, even when coded as heterosexual.
It must be the format.
This is also why YA or the male oriented lost genre of adventure novels are more prolific (fantasy and scifi being more mature though perhaps not more sophisticated adventure fodder relabeled as "genre"). That there is a kind of neutered masculinity, nascent but unrealized, in boyhood.
Something feminine, envious and aspirational towards unrealized masculine, in fiction.
Anonymous No.24850226 [Report] >>24850283 >>24858162
>>24850207
Maybe we should invent a new genre that combines historical and philosophical analysis using pseudo-fictional narration the expresses the author's opinions through thematic framing.
The closest thing I can think of like this is Dante's Inferno or even Paradise Lost.

Something where the narration occurs through the fictionalized voice of a historical sage and speaks towards factual history, with symbolic or metaphysical elements that convert thematic interpretation into a plotline.

Rather than a hero's journey (the adventure novel), it's the unfolding of thematic commentary in the form of a plot that exists as a psychedelic journey through factual events and figures.
Instead of a cipher, the character is the reader himself who is already taken (isekai) into the narrative world before narration begins, with in media res. This disorientation is settled by the fictionalized use of real world sages who are spokesmen for themes, and then the character is forced into conflict between the spiritual archetypes psychedelically manifest as historical figures clashing in the spirit realm. The motifs and objects of this realm draw directly from history, and do not need to interact realistically. Rather, the resolution of themes drives plot direction, and the character's journey represents the author's bias in how they believe conflicting ideas ought to synthesize. The plot's conclusion involves the main character supporting the victor who achieves this preferred synthesis, representing the reader's awakening to that gnosis.
Anonymous No.24850257 [Report] >>24850283
>>24850207
Making money definitely has value, no matter how fucking useless fiat currency is if the motivations of the common man (make enough to live and advance your goals) and the motivations of the elites (whatever the fuck we want since we can print more) do not align.
I do think fiat currency was a mistake, admittedly, but I am immensely biased as a member of either the upper lower class or middle class depending on the metric you use to describe me.
I have not, personally, lived through shit like the Great Depression where gold standard currency let us down, so I do admit a personal bias.
Anonymous No.24850283 [Report]
>>24850226
>Maybe we should invent a new genre that combines historical and philosophical analysis using pseudo-fictional narration the expresses the author's opinions through thematic framing.
I'm shocked something like historical fantasy isn't a term. Epic fantasy was the closest I could think of.
>>24850257
I'm a fiat currency hater too and have silver + gold investments. It's not so much I care about money but I do care about my work actually hitting as many people as it can. The purpose of art is to let it breathe and give form to ideas so that other people can appreciate them.
Anonymous No.24850335 [Report] >>24850402
>>24850209
It's fairly clear to me that the 20th century attempts to create a hegemonic masculine literary culture have not borne out. It was temporarily successful, but the decline of men in academia has resulted in these books being sidelined. Women are mostly not interested in these books either. The 20th century's literary canon is a product of academic preoccupation with endless discourse over ambiguous intent and meaning, which applied to masculinity leaves men awash in feelings of anxiety and uncertainty. It is not a wonder that more recent attempts to break into the "literary scene" are a laughable parade of maudlin, navel-gazing faux autobiographies by the latest would-be tortured artists and neo-Hemmingways.

For the rest of us, there is genre fiction.
Anonymous No.24850402 [Report] >>24850429 >>24850517
>>24850335
Has anyone like Hemmingway emerged who has actually known war and strife?
Anonymous No.24850429 [Report] >>24850516 >>24850517
>>24850402
Isn't that what Mein Kampf is?
Anonymous No.24850516 [Report]
>>24850429
I thought Hitler's writing was denigrated as illiterate.
Anonymous No.24850517 [Report] >>24850525 >>24850554
>>24850402
No, how could they? Hemmingway lived through two world wars and was a close spectator to the Spanish civil war. The current crop of literary writers do not have such a background or anything close to it. I speak of the Hemmingway "style" which influenced writers so strongly in the early 20th century, and which even to this day is seen as inherently "literary".

>>24850429
Hitler was a contemporary with Hemmingway, I was speaking of recent, especially millennial authors trying to break into the literary canon by aping 20th century sensibilities and styles.
Anonymous No.24850525 [Report] >>24850532
>>24850517
I mean, Korea and Nam and WW2 and Korea were relatively close to one another...
I personally know two people that were in Desert Storm and served in Iraqi Freedom as well.
Anonymous No.24850532 [Report] >>24850536
>>24850525
>I mean, Korea and Nam and WW2 and Korea were relatively close to one another...
And those are all mid-2th century conflicts. I am talking about the current crop of literary authors, who were born largely after 1980, yet try to write as though they were born in the early 1900s.
Anonymous No.24850536 [Report] >>24850557
>>24850532
Sadly, most of those people were probably chasing the 1960s-1990s dream of getting an entry level job in an industry/corpo and advancing to middle management.
I was literally just thinking of anyone anti-war who had actually known its gifts and curses.
Anonymous No.24850554 [Report] >>24850652
>>24850517
I mean there's Forrest Gump and Jarhead and they both suck.
Anonymous No.24850557 [Report] >>24850563
>>24850536
There's no real wars since Vietnam. Even bad Fallujah is not real war.
Real war is Fallujah but it lasts for longer than a year.
Anonymous No.24850563 [Report] >>24850579
>>24850557
Yes but, in theory, someone even as late as the early 2000s could have watched the life out of a friend or enemy's eyes.
Anonymous No.24850579 [Report] >>24850602 >>24850658
>>24850563
Maybe Ukraine will produce this.
Anonymous No.24850602 [Report]
>>24850579
Probably has, but since the war isn't over yet they probably won't start publishing for at least another year.
Anonymous No.24850628 [Report] >>24850643
>>24850209
>even Hemingway, has a weird kind of "metrosexuality
What do you mean "even Hemingway"? You know the guy was a giga larper insecure of his own masculinity, right? That's why it feels faggyfied
Anonymous No.24850643 [Report]
>>24850628
Yeah I mean that is what I meant.
Real masculinity is meathead baseball players taking nutshots at each other as pranks, and looking for excuses to fuck each other up just cause.
Anonymous No.24850652 [Report] >>24850671
>>24850554
Jarhead is an example of post-Vietnam GI fiction, and Forest Gump is pure boomer wank.
Anonymous No.24850658 [Report] >>24850738
>>24850579
That is my thinking, but most of that literature will be in Russian or Ukrainian, not English, unless NATO is more directly drawn into the conflict. Though I suppose there is nothing stopping a young man from America going to the warzone as a journalist or humanitarian the way Hemingway did.
Anonymous No.24850671 [Report]
>>24850652
That's sort of the point. There's a paucity of genuine examples.
Anonymous No.24850690 [Report] >>24850701 >>24851743
Fantasy still has a large readership, maybe more than sci-fi. But I think it's very saturated and hard to make a name for yourself
Anonymous No.24850701 [Report] >>24850734
>>24850690
On the bright side, it's probably the easiest time to self-publish.
That cuts both ways, but hey, it's not like a book has a shelf life unless you do something retarded like referencing the 2016 election.
Anonymous No.24850734 [Report] >>24850763
>>24850701
You have to
1) Be actually a good writer with good material
2) After that it's all marketing.

The correct answer would be it's all marketing, but then you get like Shad's Shadow of the Conqueror which lacks sufficient quality to take advantage of the marketing.
Anonymous No.24850738 [Report] >>24850833 >>24850856 >>24852162
>>24850658
There's no way to create good literature that's pro-Ukraine though, although a sort of hell of being conscripted and disillusionment would work (for both sides). Mainly because the synthetic nature of the globalist apparatus is the death of genuine meaning and completely nullifies any possibility of a vital Ukrainian nationalism that is literarily relevant.
>In my dreams my war is the next season of Servant of the People
Is fundamentally satirical.
Anonymous No.24850763 [Report] >>24850777
>>24850734
At the end, it's the same as always: you have to win, and everyone else wants to win too. There was never a time where one good guy was competing against a bunch of incompetents.
Anonymous No.24850777 [Report] >>24850815 >>24850830
>>24850763
Yes but a robust marketing approach that is half of your battle at least is a minimum requirement now, in addition to writing a good book.
Anonymous No.24850815 [Report]
>>24850777
Trips of truth
Anonymous No.24850830 [Report]
>>24850777
As true as it always was.
Anonymous No.24850833 [Report]
>>24850738
To be fair, there was literally no point in anyone (except Ukranians) dying for Ukraine. If any global party wanted it protected from Russia military bases would already be there so any attack on Ukraine would be an attack on that nation).
Anonymous No.24850856 [Report] >>24851098
>>24850738
What an utterly preposterous post. There's so much wrong with it I scarcely know where to begin. First you presuppose that the only way literature can be "good" is if it aligns with whatever narrow ideological bent you subscribe to, and then you further presuppose on this, that there are no redeemable perspectives from Ukraine, and then even suggest that because the Ukrainian side of the conflict is rife with misery it somehow bereft of literary perspective which is so utterly, profoundly lacking in historical nous there is no way to address it except to call you an imbecile.

Imagine approaching the subject of literature from the standpoint that its only value is as a vehicle for nationalist dogma. What utterly vile, despicable thinking.
Anonymous No.24851098 [Report] >>24852164
>>24850856
The very clear point flew way over your head and you sound like a NAFO faggot.
Anonymous No.24851743 [Report]
>>24850690
I do need to work on the marketing bit. I also barely see people talk about fantasy novels, but if they do it mostly involves a very intricate magic based system and high magic in general, the former of which I intentionally lack outside of the fundamental rule that using the magic requires a sacrifice of your physical body. Trying to mathematically quantify the worthiness of some person defeats the point and my magic system is extremely gatekept in universe.
Anonymous No.24851758 [Report]
>>24850098
>>24850138
>>24850209
The point of the article is that the actual difference in readership between men and woman is marginal. Yes, there has always been a trend towards woman reading more fiction. But the only real peer reviewed survey showed that there is only a 10% difference between the two. This small difference doesn't warrant the outrage or the worried conversations that have sprung up around it. And the reason we have just accepted this view is because people desperately need a scapegoat to blame the misfortunes of the world on and this is just one of many.

>Of course the people who voted Trump into power don't read! Of course the people who made Andrew Tate popular at one point don't read! Of course the group I percieve as sexist are un-empathetic and therefore non-readers! Evidence be damned! I'll believe it anyway!
Anonymous No.24851980 [Report]
>>24850138
>These are not books which reflect the zeitgeist, but rather the intellectual preoccupations of academia.
I've made this exact same point over and over, particularly in regards to what Americans consider their classics. Moby Dick is the epitome of this - an autistic intellectual's fixation hated by everyone who isn't also an autistic intellectual.
Anonymous No.24852162 [Report]
>>24850738
Russia is able to invade Ukraine because there isn't a truly globalist system anymore. And the idea that defending your country from an expansionist petrostate is "synthetic" is an amazingly vapid take. Russia isn't some emancipator against degeneracy, it's a civic nationalist hub of chiId trafficking with the highest rate of HIV in Europe that massively lacks proper toilets and has a higher divorce rate than the West
Anonymous No.24852164 [Report]
>>24851098
The only reason Russia dislikes NATO is because it dissuades them from invading smaller countries they border. That's the only "concern" they have.
Anonymous No.24852249 [Report] >>24853396
>>24850073
Anonymous No.24853396 [Report] >>24853822 >>24856316 >>24856367
>>24852249
Honestly the article doesn't really seem to draw conclusions of its own. I am just socially active and go to all sorts of spheres and don't here men talk about reading fiction outside of die-hard nerds and even then you have to differentiate between regular novels and comics. Most people who actively read seem to diagnose that there are problems in society that the education system is not teaching them so if they read outside of school it's mostly philosophy and historical documents. Which makes sense.
Anonymous No.24853822 [Report]
>>24853396
To be fair the educational system is more concerned with whether everyone can get any job at all than whether any of the graduates are actually prepared for a job that most people would want.
Better to sacrifice the lower 20% to die in poverty so the other 80% can succeed, I say.
Anonymous No.24853989 [Report] >>24856376
>>24848780 (OP)
>"why don't people read anymore novels now?"
One word answer: Feminism. Feminism killed the literature industry and the male writer.
Anonymous No.24854384 [Report] >>24854390 >>24854679
I recently self-published my first book. Spent over a year on it. It was war fiction with a psychological bent. Sold only eight copies. So many hours and hours of slaving away on this thing and I made about $24. I'm not saying it's a great work of literature but I set my expectations at selling at least ten. I couldn't even get that.

I think it's just a marketing thing, it's hard to get men to read because 1) men are inherently more visual and will gravitate towards movies and video games, and 2) most books aren't even written for men, rather just porn for women and 3) the majority of fiction has a heavily left-leaning slant these days, which men are less likely to read.

I've noticed audiobooks are a little easier to market towards men, as they can listen while driving, working, exercising, etc. I've heard indie authors finding great sales after getting one done. I'm trying to record one myself.

The silver lining is that the men's fiction market is undersaturated. If enough of us got together and started putting out books men would enjoy, you have potential to make a lot of money as an early innovator of a trend. Being a doomer about literature will help no one.
Anonymous No.24854390 [Report]
>>24854384
>I've noticed audiobooks are a little easier to market towards men, as they can listen while driving, working, exercising, etc. I've heard indie authors finding great sales after getting one done. I'm trying to record one myself.
This is definitely a huge help. I don't think it's necessarily that men don't enjoy stories or plots without visual stimulus but reading is associated with something time consuming. This doesn't matter much to me because I mostly read when going to sleep, but going to sleep and then using the audiobook version has helped me a lot in actually finishing longer stories.
Anonymous No.24854660 [Report]
>>24848820
It won't get better. The only difference will be that the smut is all written by AI
Anonymous No.24854679 [Report]
>>24854384
Men only enjoy non fiction and even that, men don't read it. Just a ten minute summary from a YouTuber who read AIs summary is enough
Anonymous No.24854696 [Report] >>24854976
>>24849960
What they really mean is buying. Women are definitely the major buyers. That's all that matters.
Anonymous No.24854887 [Report]
>>24848780 (OP)
Is that Elric?
Anonymous No.24854976 [Report]
>>24854696
>What they really mean is buying.
I've been saying that men just pirate their books. People (mostly women) buy physical books to signal to other people that they read. "Performative" if you will. The "Performative Male" archetype was a projection.
Anonymous No.24855499 [Report] >>24856033
>>24848936
no, there's still hope. The novel form is unhampered by executive non-creatives. Darth Jar Jar would have happened in an expanded universe novel.

With the wokoid infiltration into game and film narratives, novels are still a reserve of vision-purity. What is already written and what will be written remains unconstrained; the best the enemies of story can do is censor or critique.

There's hope.
Anonymous No.24856033 [Report]
>>24855499
>novels are still a reserve of vision-purity.
The biggest thing about novels is the interaction between the reader and the author is far more meaningful than television. With video games becoming movies too it wouldn't shock me if books feel more appealing for that stimulus to return.
Anonymous No.24856316 [Report] >>24856367 >>24857056
>>24853396
A big part of that is the destruction of what I usually think of as the "literary middle classes", both "the learned man" at the top who might lack a formal education but was exceptionally well read and had a circle of friends who were similarly well read who could be assumed to stay up to date on both the scientific and cultural periodicals of his time, but also likely consumed a sizable number of pulps and similar right alongside the classics, and the "working reader" who lacked the time and resources to indulge in a large library of classics and staying subscribed to a wide range of news letters, but still regularly consumed 2 or even three periodicals on the regular, likely a pulp imprint or two and one on a topic of personal interest, which he might share with his children, fostering a love of reading, and occasionally finding time to pick up maybe one or two of the more famous works if they in particular sounded like they were of interest.

A huge part of the collapse of this of course can be correlated to the gradual destruction of American literature, and literature in general, by the bloating of academia on the corpses of the medium from the world wars. Paper shortages eviscerated much of the more recently printed fiction from WWI through the depression and onto the end of WWII, leaving a strong survivorship bias that leaned towards the output of those writers among that "upper half" of the literary middle class, and the realist literary fiction of the era and the preceding era, which naturally spoke to and were easily weaponized by the rising cult of modernism and then post-modernism, which were deeply entwined from the start with socialist ideologies, as they gained power among the intelligentsia, who could be firmly defined as the literary "upper class" and who controlled many of the greater and more influential centers of intellectual thought and who were often uncomfortable with their intellectual near-peers among the "middle" who, thanks to the nature of the self-same periodicals and essays that the intelligentsia published, could "keep pace" without as much effort, freeing them to instead cross examine said output with access to myriad viewpoints outside of an increasingly stale bubble. It's not for nothing that the most influential writers societally in the western world from around the end of the 1800s to the 1960s or so are by and large, pulp authors who consumed vast quantities of researched essays on science and philosophy and history alongside genre fiction, or were academics of an exceptional focus and caliber and who largely stayed divorced from the increasingly rigid bubble of academia at the time.

This led to the deification of the increasingly politically useful realist fiction and literary fiction from that time period, artificially elevating works not based on their actual qualitative themes or intellectual value, but rather their surface level subject matter, crippling the entire medium
Anonymous No.24856367 [Report] >>24856742
>>24853396
>>24856316
While also degrading & slowly choking out the more vulnerable literary market that was the bread & butter of that "literary middle class", used both as a way to invest a love of literature in the young, but also to abstract & tackle more complex & unique emotional, philosophical, and otherwise immaterial themes more cleanly and clearly, as such clarity & certainty of intent & purpose is eminently hostile & counter-functional with modern & especially post-modern thought, derived as they are from the particularly poisonous fruit of the Enlightenment that "All Art is Subjective", & thus inherently denying any kind of objective measure, such as purpose, intent, technical quality, or desired accomplishment relating to the context of its creation, that can be used to measure such things.

This is an important factor with men & fiction in particular. While there is variation, of course, most men are at least partially objective-focused. This is the source of the psychological factors that sees a man confused by a woman complaining about something, only to lash out at him when he asks how to help or if he takes action to address the problem. Thus, more fantastical fiction appeals to most intellectually honest & average men. Because it can abstract things while still having clear meaning via the use of fantastical or impossible imagery or setting, divorced from some of the grunge-realities of the realist world, it helps to stimulate & develop a greater abstract awareness & maturity in men who historically have long grappled with "uncertain" immaterial things. This is the root of the masculine fascination with concepts such as honor, nobility, love, & spiritual purpose. These are immaterial, uncertain things, but they also objectively exist from the perspective of a human being engaging with them, and this compels both fascination & frustration as humans in general struggle with this contradictory and slippery kind of concept. Women, wired to largely disregard fine, objective details in favor of broad spectrums of emotional & physical wellbeing as a kind of social mechanism for their ingroup, more easily disregard & accept such things based on how they feel about them. Men however, in seeking concrete realities, struggle, & thus deeply benefit from fiction which helps them develop a better grasp on the immaterial by contextualizing it in abstract as something material & representative with which they can more easily come to terms with & thus create a collection of objective points from which to base things on.

As that brand of fiction has almost entirely been destroyed, having its death throes through the cold war just as the intelligentsia have most heavily been subsumed by the schools of thought & political ideology that killed said brand and cemented their control over much of the educational system on a foundational, material level, it's only natural to find men increasingly alienated as a collective from literature.
Anonymous No.24856376 [Report]
>>24853989
I'll never get over how a bunch of guys scheming to get more votes to establish a soft-deadlock politically went this far out of fucking control. Or how stupid women are that they actually believe that feminism was their idea and not spearheaded by a bunch of guys struggling to get elected using a tiny fraction of women as sockpuppets and then this actually worked.
Anonymous No.24856742 [Report]
>>24856367
> Because it can abstract things while still having clear meaning via the use of fantastical or impossible imagery or setting, divorced from some of the grunge-realities of the realist world, it helps to stimulate & develop a greater abstract awareness & maturity in men who historically have long grappled with "uncertain" immaterial things. This is the root of the masculine fascination with concepts such as honor, nobility, love, & spiritual purpose.
Agreed. Stories were always meant to simplify the reality of immaterial concepts into means that the audience could actually quantify and thus easily apply to their daily lives. These concepts are timeless and such stories don't need to rely on contemporary politics to survive. Of course, you can reference current events and they can be very helpful both from a marketing perspective and by getting readers to understand what you're talking about, but that's moreso the power of history being repetitious because the concepts are important and not the material events.

I feel a bit more comfortable that I'll do well now. Still unsure which medium I'll produce it as but I know now my main issue lies in marketing and a malicious intent to actively prevent such stories from getting published. I'll probably still have to look into other countries if I intend to have any sort of financial success, but it is refreshing to understand that I'm not the only one who feels like there is a need for idealistic and historic storytelling.
Anonymous No.24857056 [Report] >>24857097 >>24858087
>>24856316
>both "the learned man" at the top who might lack a formal education but was exceptionally well read and had a circle of friends who were similarly well read who could be assumed to stay up to date on both the scientific and cultural periodicals of his time, but also likely consumed a sizable number of pulps and similar right alongside the classics,
This is literally me. I don't know a single other person like me. Everyone is either "le academia" or a dumb cell phoner. What do.
Anonymous No.24857097 [Report] >>24858087
>>24857056
Time travel back to the early to mid-1900s to go trade letters with your own kind.

Alternatively seek out the struggling scraps of the lower half of the equation and make friends with them, but be aware most of them have moved east for media interests and are subsisting off of a diet that's at least 40% manga by volume because there's nowhere else to go that has a high enough volume of regular output that actually gets translated. Pulps are dead and the paperback industry has almost entirely been cannibalized by female and fag literature.
Anonymous No.24858087 [Report]
>>24857056
In the same boat except I don't really associate myself with academia much anymore because I realized their intelligence mostly only went to surface level. I don't mean to ego trip it's simply that modernity only views things valuable so far as it provides material benefit and it's hard to find anyone who believes otherwise.
>>24857097
>Alternatively seek out the struggling scraps of the lower half of the equation and make friends with them, but be aware most of them have moved east for media interests and are subsisting off of a diet that's at least 40% manga by volume because there's nowhere else to go that has a high enough volume of regular output that actually gets translated.
Both looking for these people and what is most likely the path for the slightest of success in my case.
Anonymous No.24858162 [Report]
>>24850226
Thus Spoke Zarathustra?