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Anonymous No.24854392 [Report] >>24854428 >>24854463 >>24854473 >>24856134 >>24856152 >>24856290 >>24856314 >>24856527 >>24856833 >>24856900 >>24856945 >>24857063 >>24857078 >>24857285 >>24858009 >>24858955 >>24860500
>the elves are leaving middle earth because well they just are OKAY
Bravo Tolkien
Anonymous No.24854428 [Report]
>>24854392 (OP)
You wouldn't get it, humie.
Anonymous No.24854463 [Report] >>24858753 >>24858762
>>24854392 (OP)
The light recedes as the darkness encroaches or whatever.
In the original sagas the elves referred to ancient Greeks, dwarves were Romans and dragons were standing armies.
Anonymous No.24854473 [Report]
>>24854392 (OP)
Iluvitar told them they had to go
Anonymous No.24856062 [Report]
You posted this exact thread on /tv/. Kill yourself.
Anonymous No.24856082 [Report] >>24856294 >>24856513 >>24857943
The hobbit was a great one-off tlotr trilogy is nonesense that goes on entirely too long and no-one has yet addressed the elephant in the room why not just fly on one of the big owls to mount sauron to dispose of the ring?
Anonymous No.24856134 [Report] >>24859142
>>24854392 (OP)
Kek, imagine staying in middle earth when there are orcs everywhere. Peace bro im ascending
Anonymous No.24856152 [Report] >>24856549
>>24854392 (OP)
Humans are breeding like flies and their days are numbered. The golden age will never return. There's simply nothing left for them in Middle Earth anymore.
Anonymous No.24856290 [Report] >>24856552
>>24854392 (OP)
>filtered by the Silmarillion
I thought this was a high iq board
Anyways, the Noldor were never supposed to go back to Middle Earth
They followed Feanor but mostly because Fingolfin loved his people and his slain father. He had the biggest following and it was thanks to him that they endured and for a time thrived despite the ban and the doom.
Anonymous No.24856294 [Report] >>24856976
>>24856082
>t. never read the book
Because Sauron had an air force
Anonymous No.24856314 [Report]
>>24854392 (OP)
Good. Fuck off and don't come back.
CFUX-FM No.24856513 [Report]
>>24856082
The Hobbit does indeed stand alone really well, but LOTR is amazing too.
>t. read LOTR before The Hobbit
Anonymous No.24856527 [Report] >>24856953
>>24854392 (OP)
>i wonder who could be behind this post?
Anonymous No.24856549 [Report]
>>24856152
damn. just like white people today
Anonymous No.24856552 [Report] >>24856657
>>24856290
The Noldor all died in the first age, except for a couple remnants. The elves who exist in Lord of the Rings are descendants of those elves who did not make the original journey to the Undying Lands, which the Valar had intended every elf to make. Some elves refused, others lost their way before they could take ships across the sea.

What was happening in the third age was the Valar making a second offer to all elves still on middle earth to come to the undying lands, where all immortal beings were supposed to dwell. Elves being on middle earth was sort of regarded as a mistake by the valar from the very start.
Anonymous No.24856657 [Report] >>24857297 >>24857830
>>24856552
I think we're talking about different things
The Sindar (related to the Teleri) were not under the ban, nor were the Avari although the latter were generally not permitted to sail because they were unwilling to follow Orome unlike the former, who started but never finished.
All the Quendi were originally supposed to leave Middle Earth after Morgoth destroyed the Lamps. The Valar lifted the Noldor ban after the War of Wrath but did not compel any Elf to come to Valinor. Those who heard Almost calling trickled away by ship, be they Noldor or Sindar
Legolas may be part Avari (his grandsire Oropher was a Sindar but we don't know about his mother or grandmothers) and as far as I know he was the only one from that tribe allowed to sail West
My point is that none of the Elves were supposed to stay originally, after the marring of Arda.
Anonymous No.24856833 [Report]
>>24854392 (OP)
Here's the answer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKU0qDpu3AM
Anonymous No.24856900 [Report] >>24856954
>>24854392 (OP)
>the Whites are leaving democrat run cities because, well they just are OKAY
Bravo Mamdani.
NYC to be renamed Moria
Anonymous No.24856945 [Report]
>>24854392 (OP)
By my count, the world has had five apocalypses by the time of Sauron's first defeat.
Many Elves directly witnessed the Sun and Moon being created to replace the destroyed Two Trees, the sinking of Beleriand, and the changing of the world's shape from a disc to a sphere.
They know the world as it now isn't the one that was created to sustain them. Only Aman bares any resemblance to that, and it's also where their dead relatives are restored to life after spending time in the Halls of Mandos, so they will see them again.
The ones who remain in Middle-Earth will be counted among Men, and their fates beyond life unknown.
Anonymous No.24856953 [Report]
>>24856527
I don't know Aragorn's tax policy, but at least I know the end of his story.
Anonymous No.24856954 [Report] >>24857834
>>24856900
People are leaving NYC?
Well, that's probably due to Nettin'yahoo's recent veiled threat that he'd nuke the eastern seaboard and blame Iran so the US would go full hog on them.
CFUX-FM No.24856976 [Report] >>24857282
>>24856294
>Because Sauron had an air force
Made up of at best 9 Nazgul on their mounts. The Eagles could have easily swarmed Mordor with one of them carrying the One Ring. I'm tired of people trying to rationalize what in reality is a giant plot hole that only suspension of disbelief can rectify.
Anonymous No.24857063 [Report]
>>24854392 (OP)
They had already extended their time in Middle Earth. They’re essentially putting off paradise to remain and meddle. Once the Sauron business was over they could fuck off.
Anonymous No.24857078 [Report]
>>24854392 (OP)
>Elves fleeing because the hyper-breeding humans were going to shit up the world, much like Indians in real life.
I would too.
Anonymous No.24857165 [Report]
As if you wouldn't leave regular Earth now, if there was a better place available.
Anonymous No.24857282 [Report] >>24857844 >>24859321
>>24856976
>9 nazgul
>and a giant eye that sees everything
>and a palantir
>and all kinds of ranged weapons manned by uruks, trolls, enslaved/allied men
>and the eagles only answer to Manwe
>and Manwe does not order them to join in the war because he already sent help with the Istari and Glorfindel
Just admit you never read/understood it
Anonymous No.24857285 [Report]
>>24854392 (OP)
Read the Silmarillion you dumb retard cunt
Anonymous No.24857297 [Report]
>>24856657
>Almost
*Ulmo
dumb autocowreckt
Anonymous No.24857830 [Report] >>24858718
>>24856657
you seem to be a genuine Tolkien fan, so i'll correct some of your misconceptions (I do this in goodwill):
>the Sindar (related to the Teleri)
so Teleri is the overarching third tribe of the Elves, and Sindar are the highest branch of that tribe, because they made it the furthest West before finally faltering.
>Legolas may be part Avari (his grandsire Oropher was a Sindar but we don't know about his mother or grandmothers)
There are two stories about Thranduil and Legolas. The first has Thranduil being one of the Sindar of Gondolin, the second being of the Sindar of Doriath. And Legolas is said to have been born at either of those places. Thus we can conclude that he is either full Sindar, part Sindar and Noldor. (it is extremely doubtful that Legolas had Green Elven blood from the elves of Ossiriand)
I'm inclined to the second theory, because if Thranduil and Legolas had come from Gondolin, they'd have more than likely had weapons that glowed blue, since all weapons from Gondolin did that. And secondly, Menegroth was a cave fortress/city, just like Thranduil's kingdom in northern Mirkwood. This is probably where he got the idea from. And the extreme hatred and distrust that Legolas and Thranduil have towards Dwarves stretches back to the days of Doriath, since it was Dwarves who killed Elu Thingol which then led to the destruction of Doriath since now Melian's magic wasn't protecting the forests anymore.

Since all evidence seems to support the "Legolas was born in Doriath", then it's assured that he was Sindar on both sides of the family. Sindar elves were the nobility of the Teleri, often ruling over other Telerin tribes of lesser nobility (like the Silvan in Mirkwood, and even the Silvan in Lorien, if you take the stance that Celeborn was a Sindar elf of Doriath, which one of the variant stories attests to)
Aside from that, you have a good understanding of the situation :)
Anonymous No.24857834 [Report] >>24857876 >>24858747
>>24856954
>people are leaving Moria?
Khazad-dum was originally 100% dwarven. By the time of the election of the balrog Mamdani, it was 50%+ foreign orc populated.
Anonymous No.24857844 [Report] >>24857867 >>24858752
>>24857282
Better send a Hobbit, then.
Anonymous No.24857867 [Report] >>24857881 >>24857978
>>24857844
because hobbits are dumb retards too naive for evil designs that the ring would exploit
Anonymous No.24857876 [Report] >>24857929
>>24857834
He is not a Balrog
There's little difference between Rohan and Gondor
Anonymous No.24857881 [Report] >>24857895
>>24857867
In all truth, no.
The dumb naive of the real world are the ones most easily swayed by propaganda of state and capitalism. The Hobbits are more like culturally stubborn native Americans
Anonymous No.24857895 [Report]
>>24857881
good point, I somewhat agree and disagree but overall it fits
Anonymous No.24857929 [Report] >>24857962
>>24857876
>he is not a brownoid leader of brownoid orcs
>there's little difference between brownoid orcs and White elves/numenoreans
oh my sweet naive brownoid summer child. Yes, there is.
Anonymous No.24857943 [Report]
>>24856082
The eagles would be corrupted by the ring.

The entire point of having hobbits hold the ring is that they are ruralfag bongoloids that don't want for much. Even then, Frodo can't resist the ring at the final moment. In the end, greed and lust for power destroys itself as Gollum takes the ring and falls into the lava.
Anonymous No.24857962 [Report] >>24858011
>>24857929
He isn't. He's just a flavor of establishment and will be as transformative as Obama. The man of a complexion you dislike was nothing more than Bush 2.0. Stop being a retard.
Anonymous No.24857978 [Report]
>>24857867
Are the eagles vulnerable to this or what?
Anonymous No.24858009 [Report] >>24858020
>>24854392 (OP)
They're leaving because their spirits need to be sustained by the power of unchanging places. Without the Three Rings the last of those are gone, so any Elf who stays will fade away, die... and end up in Valinor either way.
Anonymous No.24858011 [Report] >>24858018
>>24857962
>as transformative as Obama
yes, that's when ugly fat and uppity brownoids collectively decided to pretend that they were "beautiful" and that whites needed to be destroyed so as to not have the reminder of actual beauty in front of their eyes anymore.
Stop being a low iq brownoid, brownoid, go back to Mordor.
Anonymous No.24858018 [Report] >>24858028
>>24858011
No, that was a CIA ops. It's always been an ops and you are playing the part they always knew you would, well before you were born, dipshit.
Anonymous No.24858020 [Report]
>>24858009
just wait until the muslims, blacks, hispanics and hindu people start migrating to Valinor.
>stop being a racist Manwe, let us in! We built Valinor, you need us. Elves don't even reproduce enough to maintain Valinorean infrastructure, your utopian heaven can't sustain itself unless you let us in!
Anonymous No.24858028 [Report] >>24858726 >>24858737
>>24858018
>no, that was a CIA ops.
>Obama and Bush are both establishment, just like Mamdani.
>CIA is the establishment
>stop criticizing the establishment candidates of the CIA, you're just playing into their strategy by not embracing their strategy
stfu Saruman. Brownoids are ugly, fat people are ugly. GTFO out of the West. West is for Whites.
Anonymous No.24858718 [Report] >>24858949
>>24857830
Thank you for your comment, I appreciate it especially when it comes from someone who knows the source material as well as you do.
I have to add something regarding the Teleri though. They had a strong presence in Aman but did not mingle much with either Noldor or Vanyar, preferring to live in Alqualonde by the Sea or the island of Tol Eressea. Osse loved them too much to let them go further inland and they themselves preferred his wavy music, becoming skilled musicians as well as excellent sailors.
I stand corrected regarding Legolas' maternal ancestry however. You point out correctly that the Elf/Dwarf feud dates back to Doriath and the Silmaril. It is further corroborated by Legolas himself when he states to be kinsman of Lothlorien Elves. who are as mistrustful of Dwarves as he and his father are. Celeborn maybe even more so. Sindar generally did not mingle with Avari so it's unlikely for Legolas or his father to be a product of such union.
Galadriel is obviously the exception, but she is a Noldorin princess of Valinor, has seen the two Trees and was later trained by a very wise and powerful Maia.
The Avari were very very secretive, having never forgotten what happened to those of their people kidnapped by Morgoth. Initially they did help and teach the early Edain, but after king Denethor's death in battle became even more elusive.
Anonymous No.24858726 [Report] >>24858949 >>24859027
>>24858028
>stop criticizing the establishment candidates
Damn, you're dumb.
Expected though. Racists are the dumbest people on Earth. Easily controlled
Anonymous No.24858737 [Report] >>24858949
>>24858028
I love how you psychotics uploaded your latest firmware with the mayor of New York so you can constantly namedrop him forever more as if it’s normal.
Anonymous No.24858747 [Report] >>24858949
>>24857834
retard zionist shit-for-brains poor excuse for a troll
If anything Muslims are the people of Khand, not fucking balrogs
Anonymous No.24858752 [Report]
>>24857844
>t. hasn't read the books
take a hike
Anonymous No.24858753 [Report] >>24858844
>>24854463
>allegory
no
Anonymous No.24858762 [Report] >>24858844
>>24854463
Elves and Dwarves are not human at all, nor are Orcs, Trolls, Werewolves and what have you.
If you want to draw parallels to the real world (which Tolkien did not like at all btw) you need to be more familiar with the various tribes of Edain (Men) who populated Middle Earth. He describes them and in places expands on their cultures/traditions/looks etc.
Orcposting is fun sometimes and cringe at others
Anonymous No.24858844 [Report] >>24858934
>>24858753
>>24858762
The original is Völsungasaga. They're talking about literal, historical people and armies we can find in other sources, calling Roman noble families dwarves. Elves aren't involved because it's basically a story about central European politics not ancient Greece.
Unlike dwarves elves sit with the Æsir, the gods of men, from Asia as in wider Turkey somewhere. Some of the families of gods associated with beauty, art and fertility aren't Æsir but Vanir, elves from Greece.
Anonymous No.24858934 [Report] >>24858969
>>24858844
you're talking about Sigurd and Gudrún, not LOTR or related works of his legendarium
Not denying that Tolkien was inspired by Germanic heroic sagas, but it's not the same thing and should not be read the same way
Anonymous No.24858939 [Report] >>24858969
They were tired.
By the third age they had spent the last few thousand years getting their shit rocked by necromancers, balrogs, and dragons.
Also the humans were moving into their neighborhoods.
Elf flight to valar suburbia
Anonymous No.24858949 [Report] >>24858977 >>24858980 >>24859027
>>24858726
no, brown people are the easiest people to control. That's why the elite constantly import them. Cheap labor, "loyalty" (because no one else wants to associate with them), and low iq so you don't have to worry too much about them getting any ideas of their own. (Although this streak of good luck eventually runs out, see Jews with Mamdani right now. Jews imported all these foreigners, and those foreigners finally get the uppity idea to vote for another foreigner instead of a Jew lord! the nerve!)

>>24858737
the similarity between NYC and Khazad-dum morphing into Moria is just too blatant to pass up.

>>24858718
>Teleri though. They had a strong presence in Aman
woops, you're right, forgot about them. I suppose that group would be the highest branch of the Teleri, and then the Sindar. But in terms of Middle Earth and Beleriand, the Sindar were the highest, and knew it. Kind of had an aristocratic vibe going, didn't mix with lesser elves. Even the Noldor they tended not to mix with (iirc only Turgon in Nevrast and then later in Gondolin was the exception to that rule in the First Age)

>Galadriel is obviously the exception
i think it's more a Noldorin thing in general, both Noldor and Dwarves loved Aule. We see the same friendliness with Celebrimbor and Eregion with the Dwarves.

>the Avari were secretive
are you referring to the Green Elves of Ossiriand? Or to the Elves that remained in Cuivienen? Because the latter also taught the early Edain. Research Nuin, who taught the first humans the art of language. And then there's the Wizard King Tû, who ruled over the Dark Elves of Cuivienen.

>>24858747
>Muslims are Khand
Khand is more like India actually. There's even a province or tribe in India called Khond. Seems pretty obvious.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khond_people
Near Harad and/or Umbar would be Muslims.
>balrog
Jewish Dwarves New Khazad City delved too greedily and too deep. I.e. Balrog.
Anonymous No.24858955 [Report]
>>24854392 (OP)
Elves are white people and leaving is them being replaced with browns...
Anonymous No.24858969 [Report] >>24858989 >>24859038 >>24859123
>>24858934
That's where the words and concepts come from. Dwarves are Romans, Elves are Greeks, Hobbits are Angloids, Humans are Germanic. The year is 633 and Sauron is Muhammed.
>>24858939
>By the third age they had spent the last few thousand years getting their shit rocked by necromancers, balrogs, and dragons.
>Also the humans were moving into their neighborhoods.
Literally the Greeks.
Anonymous No.24858977 [Report]
>>24858949
>Elon and Trump are on MY side!
Shuddup
Anonymous No.24858980 [Report] >>24859002
>>24858949
>Khand
a desert with horses. More associated with Arabs than indians
>Near Harad
North Africa/Berbers
>Far Harad
Africa
>Mamdani
still don't see the balrog analogy. Modern jews are not dwarves, they are not known for their toughness or crafts/hard work
Anonymous No.24858989 [Report] >>24859059
>>24858969
If Gondor is the Greeks, how did the Rohirrim Hussars ride to their rescue?
You're getting embroiled with analogies that may or may not be relevant
This is why Tolkien disliked them (the analogies not the Greeks)
Anonymous No.24859002 [Report]
>>24858980
>Khand is a desert with horses.
Where you getting that from? Please tell me it's not from some video game lol

>Near Harad is north africa/berbers
that sounds more like Umbar. Umbar were pirates, just like north africa was muslim pirates.

>far harad is africa
finally we agree on something!

>still not seeing the balrog analogy. Modern jews are not dwarves.
I'm sure you've heard about the letter Tolkien wrote where he associates the dwarves with the Jews. ("a people without a land") And when you factor in that there were Dwarves in the East, ones we barely hear anything about, it does remind one of Jews as well (so the western dwarvves would be like the Sephardim and the Ashkenazi?)
>balrog
so how does one make an analogy with a balrog? To me, a balrog, or at least that specific balrog, represents "too much of a good thing". The jews amassed a lot of power in NYC and the US in general by being the ones behind the importing of foreigners. Even now you have Soros Jr. and other jews that are financially supporting Mamdani's political campaign. If you think they're doing this out of the goodness of their hearts, then you're a sweet summer child. It's greed. LOTS OF MONEY to be had by importing foreigners, and votes/power too. But there's a schism in the Jewish community now because a Jew wasn't elected, and instead a foreign Muslim was. Khazad-dum was Jewish controlled, now it's orc controlled, and the balrog is the spiritual representation of that greed that led them to this result. The dwarves had Seven Rings of Power, that allowed them what they desired (to make more gold) but it always resulted in it biting them in their collective asses.
Anonymous No.24859027 [Report]
>>24858726
>racists are the dumbest people on Earth. Easily controlled.
>>24858949
>brown people are the easiest people to control.
Uh... wasn't it generally non-whites that allied with Sauron or that he easily corrupted into serving him?
Seems like Saruman, Grima, the Dunlendings, the Black Numenoreans (who were white themselves, or were initially, but always ruled over a non-white populace), and maybe a few people around Bree, were the only whites that served evil.
Anonymous No.24859038 [Report]
>>24858969
Anonymous No.24859059 [Report] >>24859143
>>24858989
Gondor is Germany and Hussars are Polish. Saruman is the Orthodox patriarchy and Dumbledore is the pope. Get good at reading bro.
Anonymous No.24859066 [Report] >>24859109 >>24859139 >>24860589
One thing Warhammer does which Tolkien should have done is have the concept of Dark Elves. They are the coolest type of elves. Imagine a Dark Elf coven in the ruins of Dol Guldur
Anonymous No.24859109 [Report]
>>24859066
>Warhammer
That was D&D, sonny Jim.
Anonymous No.24859123 [Report] >>24859139 >>24859229
>>24858969
Then what are Slavs?
Anonymous No.24859139 [Report]
>>24859066
dunno anything about Warhammer, but Tolkien's orcs are basically evil elves that were corrupted. And then there are good elves called "Dark Elves", of varying shades of "darkness". So the Grey Elves are halfway between Light Elves and Dark Elves, and then further east you have the elves of Cuivienen who are full on Dark Elves (not evil, just not as powerful or beautiful or intelligent as the far western elves).

>>24859123
not that anon, but maybe Silvan Elves? Slav... Silvan... *shrug* geographically there's a similarity too
Anonymous No.24859142 [Report]
>>24856134
Elves leaving for the west in an analogy for white flight.
Anonymous No.24859143 [Report]
>>24859059
>dumbledore
lmao you're confused
Anonymous No.24859229 [Report]
>>24859123
Part of Greater Germany as God intended.
Anonymous No.24859321 [Report] >>24859410
>>24857282
>Demon god is on the brink of crushing the final resistance to his total rule over all middle earth
>Here, have 5 corruptible lesser spirits and an elf
>Yes, all but one of the wizards forget their duties
>The most powerful will directly ally himself with the demon god.
>I was busy taking a shit, or whatever it is Valar do and couldn't be bothered to go myself.
Why couldn't they just send Tulkas?
Anonymous No.24859410 [Report] >>24860183
>>24859321
the Valar don't like to intervene because it ends in continents being destroyed, like at the end of the First Age.
same with Eru, He doesn't like to intervene because it ended with Numenor being destroyed and the shape of the world entirely changed. (there's also a story about how Eru can't actually enter Arda completely because to do so would be like "trying to pour an infinite ocean into a small cup", and that the cup would be destroyed)
Anonymous No.24860183 [Report] >>24860206
>>24859410
Eru promotes the existence of evil through toleration of its continued existence and the Valar are at best inattentive, incompetent and naive.
Melkor poisoned the world with his evil because Eru thought it would be cool to experiment with discordant themes in music and allowed him to continue.
Melkor repeatedly destroyed any form of order and beauty that existed to spite Eru, even going as far as poisoning the fabric of reality, which Eru tolerates and accepts.
It gives spice to the world, I suppose.
Anonymous No.24860206 [Report] >>24860260 >>24860278
>>24860183
>Eru thought it would be cool to experiment with discordant themes in music and allowed Melkor to continue
i think it's less flippant than that. Melkor, along with all of the other Ainur, are "the offspring of Eru's thought". If Melkor is bad, it means there are bad elements in Eru. It's like the phrase in the Bible where God says "I form the light and create darkness" from Isaiah 45:7, it means that everything, both the good and the bad, ultimately has its source from Eru. Now Eru doesn't seem to be controlling Melkor to do those evil things, and it seems like Eru is quite capable at restraining his Melkorish thoughts (even if Melkor himself isn't), but it's an unfortunate and necessary side-effect of making reality: it can't all be bubble gum and rainbows, when you create good, its opposite necessarily will be created in its shadow.
Though there are theories that Eru allows it to continue to filter out the baddies from the good ones, which is another way of saying that He is sifting out His good thoughts from His bad thoughts. While this theory isn't confirmed explicitly, there is the unusual prophecy about Turin Turambar ultimately defeating Melkor in some far distant future, and finally resolving the problem of evil once and for all. Bubblegum and rainbows, at last. Which points to Eru having some sort of plan ultimately. Another theory i've heard is that Eru is trying to redeem Melkor (along with all his henchmen), though there's a lot less evidence for this one. Manwe and the Valar already tried that in the First Age and it failed horribly, and then the Turin Turambar prophecy directly contradicts this.
Anonymous No.24860260 [Report] >>24860301 >>24860334
>>24860206
>i think it's less flippant than that
Interesting perspective, yes, I think this is closer to what I was trying to get at.
> it can't all be bubble gum and rainbows, when you create good, its opposite necessarily will be created in its shadow.
Is Evil a distinct thing or merely the absence of the Good? If creation itself is Eru working himself out, warts and all, this is radically different than catholic theology, to which (I assume) Tolkien's subscribes. What you've describes sounds more like, what, Jung or eastern mysticism? I'm not well versed in either, so this could be incorrect.
Anonymous No.24860278 [Report] >>24860375
>>24860206
>it can't all be bubble gum and rainbows

this. we get hit over the head with this early in Fellowship; first we get a taste of Eru's theme from bombadil and it is pure gibberish and doggerel. the next scrap of verse we get stands in sharp contrast; Aragorn recites Beren & Luthien
Anonymous No.24860301 [Report] >>24860375
>>24860260
>is Evil a distinct thing or merely the absence of the Good?
i think Tolkien definitely would take the viewpoint that it is the absence of the Good, because in Tolkien's lore, Eru was all there was originally. Melkor is ultimately weaker than Eru, and since Eru is good (yes, he has "evil" elements within him, but he controls them and doesn't let them rule him) and Melkor is the origin of evil, that means that evil isn't really a distinct "equal" of Eru, but something lesser. When Melkor and Eru had their battle of the bands moment, Melkor often just did stuff opposite of Eru simply to try to disrupt Eru. I.e. Melkor isn't creating, he's just trying to destroy and be contrary, and this is less powerful ultimately. Creation is more powerful than just sheer destruction. Anyone can destroy a sand castle, it takes real skill to make a sand castle though.

I think ultimately this fits in with Catholic (or at least Christian) theology since the bible quote from Isaiah about God "forming light and creating darkness" is consistent. Catholic doctrine always makes God out to be superior to Satan, and this idea that Satan/Melkor/Evil is ultimately derived from God is consistent with that. Now if Melkor/Satan was originally coexistent with Eru/God from the beginning, and they both were equals in power, then it would be inconsistent with Catholic theology and something more heretical. (I forget the names, but there were early heretical christian ideologies that thought evil and good were equal powers at war with each other, whereas Catholic thought is that God is ultimately the only power, and evil is a shadowy nuisance that is just throwing a tantrum against God).

There's a lot of similarities in these ideas, about whether good and evil are equal or unequal, in the ideas of Hierarchical Authority vs Decentralized Flows, which the philosophers have been duking out for a long time.
So the leftist/communist style philosophers absolutely hate Authority and Hierarchy, and they craft these systems that work to undermine them. Authority/Hierarchy are like a gov't, with a leader at the top, or like a pantheon of Ainur with a God at the top. De-centralized rhizomatic, asubjective organizations are like covens or witches or gangs of orcs, all coordinating with each other to undermine and degrade the Tower. (The "Tower", because a tower is a hierarchy that overlooks the land, the king/leader/god being at the top of the tower.) Leftist philosophy is anti-authoritarian, "dividualistic" (stealing that term from someone else), basically means divided. An individual is a Unity, a Subject, whereas a dividual is a divided, fragmentary force, a flow, a flow among other flows, a gang among other gangs, all coordinating together, each claiming a territory and not extending into other territories, but all feeding off and degrading a Stratified Authority Structure, like a gov't.
This is analogous to how Melkor works. He tears down Eru's works.
Anonymous No.24860334 [Report]
>>24860260
Tolkien's mythology is explicitly and emphatically not catholic. for one thing there's only one form of sin; instead of "vengeance is mine" eru says, "kino is mine." furthermore eru is fanatical about this policy and major divine interventions are on the menu for those who transgress.
Anonymous No.24860375 [Report] >>24860516
>>24860278
>Bombadilic theme vs Beren & Luthien
That's a better explanation for Bombadil than I've seen before. A chord that was spun out from the very beginning and keeps echoing in his little forest. Interestingly the Withywindle [sic] and surrounding area are rather chaotic, containing a pearl of order in and around Tom's house.

Is Eru himself Order arising from Chaos?

>>24860301
>were early heretical christian ideologies that thought evil and good were equal
Sounds like Manichaeism.
Anonymous No.24860500 [Report]
>>24854392 (OP)
>he isnt familiar with white flight
Anonymous No.24860516 [Report] >>24860591
>>24860375
>is Eru himself Order arising from Chaos?
we aren't told anything about what happened with Eru before he creates the Ainur.
Yes, he is Order, but "arising from Chaos" is now conjecture.
Melkor is Chaos, unraveling Order. Tolkien wrote in iirc "Morgoth's Ring" that Morgoth's eventual goal was to destroy and undo all of creation (not sure if this was to include Eru, but absolutely Arda and Ea).
But Melkor is subsequent to Eru. Chaos is subsequent to Order.
There is nothing prior to Eru. He didn't arise out of anything, he just existed.
Anonymous No.24860589 [Report] >>24860593
>>24859066
>Dark Elves
Ñoldor massacring Falmari at Alqualondë to leave Valinor was pretty evil. Later authors just copied the idea of some Elven tribe commiting kinslaughter and extended upon it, turning them into BDSM caricatures.
Anonymous No.24860591 [Report]
>>24860516
I understand Melkor as subsequent and subordinate to Eru, but I don't think he's purely chaotic, but characterized as existing in opposition to Eru.

If the Ainur are Eru's thoughts made manifest, they can be considered to be part of him, and the development of themes of music through them can be understood to be Eru developing himself, through the Ainur, that he's creating order out of the chaos of undirected sound.
Anonymous No.24860593 [Report]
>>24860589
>expanded upon it