Are picrel the in-universe reason why GINNs mostly fell out of fashion among ZAFT by Destiny/Freedom?

ANTS

>>23361599 (OP)
>mostly fell out of fashion
No, it's because there were newer, more versatile models out there. GuAIZ first, and then the ZAKU series, which itself is in the process of being replaced by the GELGOOG.
That's why Foundation used GINNs and DINNs for their swarm tactics. In all likelihood, ZAFT just gave them away.

>>23361599 (OP)
because they were outdated equipment
Like fielding a British Mark 4 tank against a German Tiger tank.

>>23361638
>Like fielding a British Mark 4 tank against a German Tiger tank.
Unfair, and a bit ridiculous, of a comparison, considering the timeframe (GINNs can use beam weapons with upgrades). Something like the BT or Somua S35 makes more sense.

>>23361635
>>23361638
I get that the GINNs are old, but I'm more asking why they never developed GINN IIs to continue the lineage. Zeon didn't stop making Zakuski after the first model outlived its usefulness, and the same is true for the Federation. ZAFT made plans for the Strike Freedom/Infinite Justice, and actually built the Providence. Is it just Gundam exceptionalism for the Cosmic Era?

>>23361599 (OP)
They are still being used in that non-canon Astray Seed Freedom manga.

>>23361654
>but I'm more asking why they never developed GINN IIs to continue the lineage
After the war began, ZAFT integrated all their Design Bureaus into a single concern. Since the Le Creuset team successfully stole the GAT-X series, ZAFT ordered a mass-production model directly from their newly acquired technology.
In this regard, the GINN was a technological dead end. Yes, they're decent units in the hands of skilled pilots after being overhauled, but you wouldn't want to field your forces with them if you can field better units. An F-16 is still an airframe from the 1970s and inferior to the F-35, regardless of how many upgrades you slap on it.

>Is it just Gundam exceptionalism for the Cosmic Era?
Bingo.

>>23361654
The in-universe reason is that SEED proved how useful packs and Gundam-lites are. The GINN can't be adapted to as many situations as the ZAKU and it's not like ZAFT was poor like the Earth Federation or the Zeon Remannts in UC, so they could churn out superior ZAKUs without worry. Only the ZAFT Coup and Foundation uses it in SEED Freedom, and that's because Fukada wanted to put a spotlight on older MS.

>>23361654
>>23361654
GuAIZ was the GINN II. The problem was that inserting zeon redesigns ended up making Bandai more money than the original mono-eye ms.

Why do SEED threads always seem to have a random anon or two show up who have all this in-depth info about the setting?

>>23361690
>Only the ZAFT Coup and Foundation uses it in SEED Freedom
The ZAFT coup faction fields ZAKUs, not GINNs. We see GINNs in the regular forces on Earth during the Blue Cosmos attack on Aldrin because ZAFT wouldn't bother to reinforce them with newer models.

>>23361700
Honest answer? Because Fukuda is an utter moron that wasted an interesting setting by doing garbage. If he isn't going to bother doing something interesting with it, then we will.

>>23361690
The limit on mobile suits posed by the Junius treaty was also a factor I imagine.
>We’re only allowed to own and operate 150 mobile suits, should we make an upgraded GINN or go for a brand new higher performance model with modular packs that let them fill different roles?

>>23361678
>>23361690
I see. Well, it makes sense. Fitting packs onto suits like the GINN would be a pain, and even if they did change the design to make it fit better, at that point you'd be sinking a whole lot of time and energy for something that isn't even really the same mobile suit anymore.
>>23361695
I figured that was the out-of-universe reason. It's a shame. While I appreciate the redesigns, I have to say I really liked the OG models.

>>23361700
I just think it’s a neat setting, and anons asking questions gives me more reason to learn more about it.

>>23361703

>>23361712
>at that point you'd be sinking a whole lot of time and energy for something that isn't even really the same mobile suit anymore.
Bingo. Unless you're a rogue regime that can't get decent gear anywhere, you're left with upgrading WWII-vintage tanks to the extreme they aren't even comparable anymore to the original models.

>>23361716
Dumb spongeposter.

>>23361701
You're right, I was misremembering there being gray GINNS being used alongside the ZAKUs, my bad.

As >>23361705 said, the treaty also plays a role. The EA was also forced to downscale after each war, but generally bounced back because of their numbers.

>>23361758
>The EA was also forced to downscale after each war, but generally bounced back because of their numbers.
The treaty was sorted by population. ZAFT was in a clear numeric disadvantage.

>>23361738
Petty manchild.

>>23361783
I hate the fucking sponge with every fiber of my being. That retarded cartoon contaminated an entire generation and is still on the air.

>>23361785
I don't care.
>>23361678
Speaking of aircraft, I have the same question for the Moebius series. It's one thing if we were talking about the old version reliant on the Gunbarrels, but they fix the biggest problem with the unit (ineffective weaponry) only to never use it again? Why? Did it just require too much from pilots at the time to really see mass production?

>>23361799
>It's one thing if we were talking about the old version reliant on the Gunbarrels, but they fix the biggest problem with the unit (ineffective weaponry) only to never use it again? Why? Did it just require too much from pilots at the time to really see mass production?
The jump from the Moebius to mobile suits was a complete paradigm shift for the Earth Alliance.
Imagine if the Germans had just kept making Panzer IIs after being mauled by T-34s in the Eastern Front. Sure, they kept using the chassis for self-propelled guns, but the technical inferiority was clear to the extreme they had to come up with a counterpart of their own in the Panther.

>>23361799
Moebius was designed before mobile suits became the main power on the battlefield. It's old and has limitations. Even when they did stick a beam gun onto it, it didn't solve the rest of its problems. Why keep using it when they can roll out newer mobile armors with better firepower, defense, and mobility?

>>23361799
The Moebius had a 5:1 ratio of losses when fighting a basic GINN. It gets even worse when Gundams and even more advanced MS are included, so the concept was abandoned for mass production.
The answer the EA came up with was to make the Euclid and Zamza-Zah instead. By putting 3 pilots to handle different tasks, they solved the issue of Naturals being shitty pilots while increasing the power and defense capabilities of a mobile armor. Didn't save them against Gundams, but it could give trouble to a ZAKU or GOUF.

>>23361799
>they fix the biggest problem with the unit (ineffective weaponry) only to never use it again
An old weapons platform is still an old weapons platform, regardless if you give it a bigger gun. There's a good reason nobody bought this, despite being cheaper than an Abrams or Leopard II.

>>23361861
Yeah there comes a certain point where your Tank of Theseus literally can't keep up no matter what you do. As much as I'd love to see F-4 Phantoms fly until the heat death of the universe, they have no place whatsoever on the modern battlefield. There's always anomalies though, like the B-52's that have outlived some of the men who flew them during the Cold War.

>>23361851
>By putting 3 pilots to handle different tasks, they solved the issue of Naturals being shitty pilots while increasing the power and defense capabilities of a mobile armor
Oh yeah, I forgot all about that thing. Honestly, the Earth Forces should have considered putting more money into co-op mobile suits, at least for the Destroys. Do we know if they tried doing that at one point?

>>23361870
Possibly yeah, I think the idea is that later on they just wanted the mobile suit squads to defend the MAs but it didn't work out too well. AFAIK, the Destroy never had co-op because it needs to be "compatible" with the Extended pilot used. I don't think they ever go into what makes one better at using it compared to someone else.

>>23361870
they already had the natural OS to enable piloting MS at an moderately acceptable level, so maybe multiple pilots for some mobile armors was probably because they handled differently than MS and maybe more like tanks and ships that had dedicated driver\gunner\etc roles

Are Naturals really shitty pilots or is it because the Earth Alliance have a shit tier operating system?

>>23362044
Most of them are just shit. The OS evened the playing field after Kira fixed it basically where they can do wave tactics and overwhelm GINNs. Outside of that, Coordinators have both better MS and piloting skills. It's especially notorious with stuff like the Windam, the supposed pinnacle of being recognized as a Mass-Production Strike, getting its first on-screen skill like last year.

>>23361695
Which makes me sad as all the original SEED grunts were neat.

>>23362044
All good regular human bean pilots get wasted by moronic superiors or defect to people who aren't nuts.

Would the Earth Forces have been better off going all in on mass producing their mobile armors like the Zamza-Zah, or would it not have mattered enough to affect anything?

>>23362603
with fukada in charge, it wouldn't matter at all

The really good GINNs are reserved for the right occasions.

>>23362607
>>23361716

>>23362603
I think it would all depend on whether they could get such a thing done before the Destiny and Legend appear. Otherwise, I imagine ZAFT would end up having to use the swarm tactics that the Alliance was using on them in mobile suit combat to keep up.

>>23362069
>after Kira fixed it
Kira wasn't involved into making the Natural-use OS for the Earth Alliance. That was a project for Orb and the M1 series.
Side material points out that it was developed by Alliance engineers (a number of them being Coordinators) at the Panama base.

At best, the data that the Archangel delivered in Alaska was combat telemetry for the GAT-X series, but not the actual software suite a Natural would need to operate an MS, which was not only destroyed with the Strike, but also entirely customized for Kira's use.

>>23362614
That looks fucking amazing, dig the dual guns and swords

>While the GINN Gladiator acquired combat capabilities comparable to the Alliance's G Project weapons in certain environments
holy shit

>Due to the output limits of the GINN Series, they are much weaker than the "Shiva" railgun installed on the GAT-X102 Duel Gundam's Assault Shroud
what a letdown..

>>23362625
the man controls CE, what do you want?

>>23362607
Fuduka is wrong about many things but he is right when he said Astray shouldnt be considered canon to Seed. Astray got way too retarded and ridiculous as the series progressed.

>>23362993
>Fuduka is wrong about many things but he is right when he said Astray shouldnt be considered canon to Seed.
That's only because he's butthurt about anyone meddling in his (and his wife's) setting and becoming almost as popular. The fact that Fukuda isn't aware that the Red Frame has as many model kits variants as the Strike and more than either Freedom is absurd on its face.
Having said that...

>Astray got way too retarded and ridiculous as the series progressed.
Astray is basically the Cosmic Era's Crossbone.

>>23363000
Astray is NOWHERE near as popular as SEED, don’t be ridiculous.

>>23363002
The model kits certainly are.
And for a manga series, it's extremely popular. Perhaps the most popular Gundam manga out there. That's why I said "almost as", because at least Chiba and Tokita kept it active for the decade that the movie was in production hell.

>>23363006
When? I looked up the 2021-2024 best sellers and saw no Astray at all. Are you talking about 2005-2010 or something?

>>23363115
Oh, Gundam never ranks in the top ten or even fifty among all manga. He just means it's the most popular manga when compared to ONLY other Gundam manga.

>>23362603
Wouldn't matter if Fukada was around because they exist to get mulched by the MCs. If he wasn't...Eh. The firepower and positron reflectors are nice, but all it takes is getting around the blindspot to kill them which shouldn't be too hard since ZAFT wasn't really low on aces.

>>23362884
I always figured that Kira's data was pretty important since the original OS made on Heliopolis was such a piece of junk and in the show, it was around the point that Kira gave the combat data and info that the Strike Daggers were prematurely deployed. If it's side-materials that Coordinators (Naturals can't do anything lmfao, thanks George Glenn) developed it, I'm willing to believe it since Combat Coordinators + Jean Carry were probably used to help test the OS.

>>23362993
Barry Ho is still one of the funniest characters to me. Feels like he got lost on the way to G Gundam.

>>23363147
And then Barry got killed by an anorexia Char.

>>23363160
Dude survived leaping out of his Strike Dagger from like 18m then shrugs off the civillian killing mounted feet guns...Only to get his chest pierced by a Combat Coord with monkey stretch arms. Really makes all his previous achievements go out the window lmao.

>>23363137
I was looking at Gunpla sales rankings actually. I saw the Strike a few times and the Dagger L of all things but no Astray.

>>23363175
>I was looking at Gunpla sales rankings actually.
>and the Dagger L of all things
Which rankings? From where? At which date? Because Bandai doesn't share sales data and Amazon.jp isn't a good measure because the Japanese still buy their kits from brick-and-mortar shops.

>>23363177
Dengeki Hobby.

>>23363147
Did you even read what I wrote?

>it was around the point that Kira gave the combat data and info
To Orb, not the Earth Alliance. He couldn't have given it to them because, other than the fact that he did not get to Alaska with the Strike in the first place, there was nothing to deliver outside of whatever sensor data there was in the Archangel. They didn't recover the wreck and Sutherland is upset that they had arrived without it.
Also, the fact that they were working on the druggie gundams means they had the OS issue solved to some extent, because the OS from Heliopolis wasn't usable for complex machinery, much less combat vehicles.

>that the Strike Daggers were prematurely deployed
They weren't "prematurely deployed". Strike Daggers were fully combat operational during the Panama battle. The issue with EMP shielding had nothing to do with Natural pilots being able to pilot them or not.

>>23363203
There's a good bit of conflicting information, but I'm using the Gundam World Encylopedia for reference and the information should be fairly up to date since it's from 2016. Not sure if the link plays well so I'll also include the tidbit. https://gudamer.sakura.ne.jp/wiki/wiki.cgi/GUNDAM?page=%A1%CCGAT%2DX105%A1%CD%A5%B9%A5%C8%A5%E9%A5%A4%A5%AF%A1%CA%A5%CA%A5%C1%A5%E5%A5%E9%A5%EB%CD%D1OS%BA%CE%CD%D1%B5%A1%A1%CB "このOSは,オーブに回収されたストライクも搭載され,この時点で当初目指していたナチュラル用モビルスーツとしてのストライクは,完成したとも言えるのである。
一方,ナチュラル用OSの情報は,モルゲンレーテ社を通じて連合にもフィードバックされている。
これによって,連合の量産機には同等のOSが組み込まれ,地球連合の主力兵器もモビルスーツへとシフトして行くのである。"

So it seems like in addition to the data they had from Alaska, they took the improvements Kira made in Orb for their own through espionage.

>Strike Daggers were fully combat operational during the Panama battle.
I don't doubt that, but outside of Fukada writing, I don't really understand the reluctance to deploy the MS when the CO has pretty much every reason to when they've been under attack since dawn and their lines of defenses have been breached. I feel like there was more to it than just EMP Shielding when ZAFT has never used EMPs before and after this battle, and if we include side-materials, the Long Daggers have already proven themselves, so the Strike Dagger pilots likely have some form of training at this point.

>>23363287
>the data they had from Alaska
Again, which "Alaska data"? They didn't have the Strike anymore.

>Not sure if the link plays well
>https://gudamer.sakura.ne.jp/wiki/wiki.cgi
Somebody needs to explain to me why every fucking time I try to open that website, it just redirects back to Google.

>I don't really understand the reluctance to deploy the MS when the CO has pretty much every reason to when they've been under attack since dawn and their lines of defenses have been breached
That was explained in Destiny: racist to the core as they are, the Earth Alliance really doesn't like Mobile Suits. They see them as "Coordinator machines" and would rather deploy things like the Zamza-Zah and Gells-Ghe instead. They were forced to develop MS out of sheer technological disadvantage, and even that project had to be conducted by Halberton outside of the top brass's purview.

>>23363327
it'd be pretty fucking stupid if they didn't back up the strike's data after each battle considering how important it was, and how they were forced to send out the strike into battle because they didn't have much other fighting power, and the strike doesn't have a way to protect its data like how the RX-78 had the core fighter

never mind, it IS fucking stupid. the theft of the abyss, gaia, and chaos basically forces them into developmental dead ends, ZAFT is unable to continue their work or produce replacements because apparently the project was so underfunded they must have been using the computers in the gundams to store all the project data

>>23361865
well, the F-15EX's exist.

>>23363327
you're not copying the entire link, it loads just fine for me. copy EVERYTHING below as one line and paste it into the address bar:

https://gudamer.sakura.ne.jp/wiki/wiki.cgi/GUNDAM?page=%A1%CCGAT%2DX105%A1%CD%A5%B9%A5%C8%A5%E9%A5%A4%A5%AF%A1%CA%A5%CA%A5%C1%A5%E5%A5%E9%A5%EB%CD%D1OS%BA%CE%CD%D1%B5%A1%A1%CB

>>23363354
Expecting the Earth Alliance to be competent and well managed? Come on now. You are just being ridiculous.

>>23363363
>you're not copying the entire link, it loads just fine for me. copy EVERYTHING below as one line and paste it into the address bar
Same deal. Link redirects to Google regardless of browser.

>>23363327
>considers mobile suits "insect-like"
>will literally deploy mobile armors that have fucking bug bodies

>>23363354
>it'd be pretty fucking stupid if they didn't back up the strike's data after each battle considering how important it was
There's a bigger priority at play: security.

>ZAFT is unable to continue their work or produce replacements
Or, they were deemed to be worthless units by the military and Durandal just leaked the intel for Phantom Pain to come and steal them.

>>23363386
>There's a bigger priority at play: security.
just put locks on all of them then, what's the problem?

>Or, they were deemed to be worthless units by the military
they were massacring ZAFT units by the assload for ages

>Durandal just leaked the intel for Phantom Pain to come and steal them
what does that have to do with not being able to build them?

>>23363356
>F-15EX
It doesn't matter how advanced of an AESA radar you mount on it. At its core, it is still a design dating back to the late 1960s.

>>23363400
If it ain't broke, then don't fix it. The F-15 still hasn't lost a major engagement as a frontline fighter.

>>23363399
>they were massacring ZAFT units by the assload for ages
While being piloted by Extended. From ZAFT's point of view, the resources are better placed into making more ZAKUs than the elite units for Durandal's star team.

>what does that have to do with not being able to build them?
It's not whether they are able or not to make more of them, but rather of basic military/economic interest. Again, those are failed prototypes as far as the top brass is concerned, losing even more value after Phantom Pain stole them. It's the same as asking as to why Lockheed closed its F-22 line.

>>23363403
We have no major engagement where fighter to fighter combat was actually necessary.

>>23363406
>From ZAFT's point of view, the resources are better placed into making more ZAKUs than the elite units for Durandal's star team.
Not really the case given the kill ratios we see in the show, and it's also clear that ZAFT never stopped development of elite units since SF, Legend, Destiny, Destiny Impulse, etc were planned and a bunch of them made it into active service.

>Again, those are failed prototypes as far as the top brass is concerned, losing even more value after Phantom Pain stole them.
How are they failed prototypes? The fact that they perform so well in the hands of extended (designed to compete with coordinators) means that they would also be similarly effective if employed by ZAFT against enemy natural pilots.

>It's the same as asking as to why Lockheed closed its F-22 line.
You're going to have to explain that one.

>>23363327
>Again, which "Alaska data"? They didn't have the Strike anymore.
"『ガンダムSEED』シリーズにおいて設定を担当した下村敬治は書籍記事において、地球連合におけるナチュラル用OS開発の折にはアークエンジェルがアラスカ基地で提出したデータのほか、連合に在籍するコーディネイター捕虜の協力や、オーブでのナチュラル用OSの開発情報を入手するなどの手段がとられたとの見解を示している[12]。" Archangel had the data and gave it, from Producer Takaharu Shimomura who did setting development for SEED. This tidbit is from 2003 in "Great Mechanics 9" though, so it might contradict current information.

>I don't really understand the reluctance to deploy the MS when the CO has pretty much every reason to when they've been under attack since dawn and their lines of defenses have been breached
Yeah that tracks. I remember that clearly from DESTINY and wondering why the EA was being so retarded.

>>23363372
Yeah, the MA looked more insectoid than the actual MS they were deriding. Even more silly with the Gells-Ghe because they just slapped a Strike Dagger body on it for more guns, so it's like double "insects".

>>23363399
They still had the Proto-Chaos but there was no reason to continue it. They would rather continue making the Impulse both for how successful it was and it was the hero of the Minerva. It's why we have 3 Destiny Impulse Units.

>>23363416
other countries use the F-15.

>>23363443
>other countries
Anon, just say Israel. This is taking forever.
And even they have a bunch of F-35s.

>>23363434
The ridiculous part of that statement is not the fact that the Archangel passed some kind of data on Alaska that somehow aided in the development of the Natural OS. After all, the Astray novel is clear that what they got from it is basically telemetry: how the GAT-Xs operate in actual combat.
No, it's this, actually:
>コーディネイター捕虜
"Coordinator POWs" helping with key military development!? What kind of hot nonsense is this? Is the Earth Alliance just begging for sabotage?

>>23363446
Saudi Also has them.Most of the EX's are just overstock from the Saudi variants

>>23363451
I wouldn't be surprised considering how haughty some of higher command is. I'm also pretty sure this was before Astray made up Coordinators that couldn't harm Naturals through gene manipulation, so I'm not sure how they forced them to cooperate without risking themselves but it is what it is.

>>23361678
>An F-16 is still an airframe from the 1970s and inferior to the F-35, regardless of how many upgrades you slap on it.

This isn't true. The F-35 has a more STEALTHY airframe than the F-16. But it not more maneuverable. Especially with the absolute latest versions of the F-16. The F-16 was built to be extremely agile and lightweight. Zero stealth.

The F-35 is built for multi-role stealth. With an emphasis on attacking ground targets. But put it up against another 5th Gen fighter like the F-22, where both planes are equally stealthy, then it's going to come down to a dogfight and the F-35 is a bit of chonker. It can't compete in agility.

>>23363551
>But it not more maneuverable. The F-16 was built to be extremely agile and lightweight.
>Especially with the absolute latest versions of the F-16.
It's one or the other. The F-16 loses a lot of its originally designed agility in the latest Blocks after you add CFTs, an avionics spine, stronger radar, etc. The cheap day fighter for NATO you see in this picture is not the same plane as >>23361678.
And apart from maneuverability, F-35 is still a better combat aircraft than the F-16. Why else do you think Israel, Japan and South Korea are replacing their Viper fleets?

>But put it up against another 5th Gen fighter like the F-22, where both planes are equally stealthy, then it's going to come down to a dogfight and the F-35 is a bit of chonker. It can't compete in agility.
That's because they are complementary to each other: F-35 is the "lo" multirole against the "hi" air superiority F-22. And besides, the importance of agility for dogfights stopped being a thing for decades now.

>>23363557
>That's because they are complementary to each other: F-35 is the "lo" multirole against the "hi" air superiority F-22. And besides, the importance of agility for dogfights stopped being a thing for decades now.

Stealth only matters when only one side has it. But when both sides have stealth, then neither can achieve decisive victory.

Ask yourself what hypothetically happens when the USA suddenly has to fight against other nations that purchased the F-35. For example, Signapore or Japan? We have situation of F-35 VS F-35.

It would be hard for either side to achieve a reliable consistent lock-on with missiles. Thus, we go full circle again and are back to dogfighting.

>>23363354
Even if they did, the EA didn't take it. They didn't even want Buster back, they just left AA sitting there for a week in lockdown until they sent it out to get destroyed when they blew up their own base. They already had the Daggers and the Druggie Gundam's ready, they didn't really need or want anything made with a filthy Coordinators help. Plus Kira's OS would have been worthless to them because it was a heavily customized Coordinator use OS. The only way to help would be to have him personally rewrite the Dagger OS like he did for the Astray's but he wasn't there to do that. And they'd already solve the problem anyway. Honestly if Kira was with AA when it got to Alaska he'd probably just have been executed.

>>23363433
The Second Stage really only makes sense if you consider it's whole purpose was for Durandal to train up his own one man army pilot to be his own version of Kira. Durandal wanted them stolen and didn't bother to replace them because their purpose was for Shinn to fight them and up his piloting skills like Kira had to via fighting the stolen GAT-X series. Once Shinn had gotten to the point where he took out Abyss they'd served their purpose and it was time to move to the next step which was fighting Kira himself. That's why even after Gaia is recaptured Durandal just has it recalled to Plant and stashed away somewhere for Terminal to steal rather than immediately assigning it to combat somewhere.

>>23363000
>Crossbone
That setting has so much potential, but sadly the mangaka only knows how to write super robot plots.

>>23364372
Unless you take into account the Seed Destiny databooks and side stories. In which case, the Second Stage series was semi-mass produced. You had Impulse Gundams and Saviour Gundams for ZAFT ace pilots on different battlefields across ZAFT territory.

And the EA took the data from the Druggies and made things like the Wild Dagger (based off of Gaia Gundam data). Pic related.

>>23363596
>It would be hard for either side to achieve a reliable consistent lock-on with missiles.
It depends on the missile. "Stealth" is an anti-radar fuselage design and coating. The way to engage against such an adversary is not guns, but rather infrared homing missiles. The latest Sidewinders are designed with stealth in mind.
The supposed importance of guns basically dates back to the Vietnam War and the piss-poor performance of 60s-vintage missiles on the F-4. Nowadays, a gun in a modern-day fighter is close to a superstition from pilots: when was the last time there was an actual dogfight with guns? The latest example I can find record of is Eritrea/Ethiopia in 1999, and even that one is questionable.
https://www.dankalia.com/archive/2003/030117.htm

>>23364723
You don't seem to understand that guns are a necessary backup. What happens if an F-35 engages an enemy when it's out of missiles? The F-35 must carry missiles inside itself to maintain stealth, and it has very limited internal storage. And if the F-35 carries missiles on the wings, then the entire stealth system is compromised. It becomes easily detectable by radar with missiles on wings.

Its also the reason why the F-35 should have used a dual engine design. The US Navy originally wanted a dual engine design for the F-35 for safety, but also because of extra payload capacity.

Dual engines = larger payload capacity = ability to carry more weapons = larger internal weapons bay.

But the US Navy compromised with the other branches. They still aren't happy about the single engine design, and why the Navy is pushing for their own next gen Navy fighter that just got announced to the public.

>>23363557
The CFTs don't affect the agility of the F-16. They were designed to have as little impact as possible. And the tanks are removable. They don't need to be there.

>>23364807
>You don't seem to understand that guns are a necessary backup. What happens if an F-35 engages an enemy when it's out of missiles?
They haven't been "necessary" for decades now. Go ahead and do the research: count all the times there have been air-to-air gun engagements since Vietnam across all conflicts (Falklands, Desert Storm, Kosovo, the various Israeli operations, Ukraine, etc). This scenario of yours is just not a thing that happens anymore, and if a fighter pilot finds itself out of AAMs, then it has to disengage.

Also, you are aware that the B and C variants have to use an external gunpod, right? Granted, it's stealthy, but it's still an additional component that a pilot can choose to do without if the situation requires it. The V/STOL F-35B is intended to replace the Harrier in the ground support mission, so the pod is there for strafing runs.

>Its also the reason why the F-35 should have used a dual engine design. The US Navy originally wanted a dual engine design for the F-35 for safety, but also because of extra payload capacity.
>Dual engines = larger payload capacity = ability to carry more weapons = larger internal weapons bay.
>But the US Navy compromised with the other branches. They still aren't happy about the single engine design
The USN always complains about having to share its toys with the USAF. While the actual savings of shared fighter programs are questionable, they still make sense from an administrative point of view.

>>23364949
To be fair, the F-35 hasn't been truly tested in war yet against a near peer adversary. It would be interesting to see engagements between Russian Su-57s, and Chinese J-20s.

>>23364991
>Russian Su-57s
Be serious, Anon.

>>23364999
I hope you realize that the picture you are showing isn't an Su-57. It's a T-50. An extremely early prototype that's been flown for tens of thousands of hours and been disassembled and reassembled countless times. It uses inferior components for testing purposes. The real Su-57s have never left Russian airspace.

The Russians use it when showing the plane to China because they don't want the Chinese to steal their designs. So they use an old dated prototype for air shows overseas.

Russians are fully capable of building competitive stealth jets. It's just that their economy is too weak to build them in large numbers without foreign customers funding the program. Or Russian dedicating a large potion of their air force military budget to the program. But Russia has chosen not do so and focuses more on Gen 4.5 fighters. Su-57 production is very slow. Similar to Abrams tank production. Just a trickle each year. Enough to keep the factory open and workers trained. And when the need arises, they can ramp up production without needing to rebuild a brand new factory and retrain workers.

>>23365035
>The real Su-57s have never left Russian airspace.
They were briefly deployed to Syria in 2018. And even so, they haven't been used in Ukraine.

>Russians are fully capable of building competitive stealth jets.
Not with sanctions. Russian technological chains have always depended on more technologically advanced countries: the US, Europe, Japan, etc. There was a huge scandal in the 1980s when Toshiba sold state-of-the-art CNC machines to the Soviets.

>Similar to Abrams tank production. Just a trickle each year.
There hasn't been any new Abrams production since 1995 for the US (2000 for export). Lima only upgrades existing hulls, not build new ones.

>>23365035
Su-57's production rates building it in artisanal rates is due to both corruption stealing most of the cash and them being unable to build the components it needs and having to import them at ruinous prices. The Abrams on the other hand has no new hull production since the late 80's. But they built thousands of them, and it's actually not cost effective to make new ones compared to just pulling out another bare hull from the stockyards they keep them in.

>>23365059
>There hasn't been any new Abrams production since 1995 for the US (2000 for export). Lima only upgrades existing hulls, not build new ones.

Your information is out of date. They've announced the restart of new production Abrams hulls at the Lima Ohio plant, and hundreds of millions of dollars are being invested in expanding the factory.

This is largely due in part to the war in Ukraine. Abrams Tanks were sent to Ukraine, and they were pulled from reserve stocks from the USA. So now the USA has to replenish their old tank stocks, and maintain a minimum amount of Abrams Tanks in reserve.

>>23365152
It's not just the war in Ukraine. Other countries are placing orders for Abrams Tanks to modernize their armies and increase their defense budgets. The Ukraine war has put a lot of countries on edge. The USA doesn't have enough old stock of Abrams anymore to keep selling them AND have enough for the US army in reserve. So they need to restart tank production.

>>23364719
Does it transform?

>>23365232
but of course

>>23365243
I need a kit of this goofy bastard immediately.

>>23365164
>>23365152
>They've announced the restart of new production Abrams hulls at the Lima Ohio plant, and hundreds of millions of dollars are being invested in expanding the factory.
I can't find any news anywhere about Lima actually building any new Abrams hulls. The plant did receive a cash injection recently and they're upgrading existing M1s for Australia, Taiwan and Saudi Arabia; and making brand-new M10 Booker light tanks.

>This is largely due in part to the war in Ukraine. Abrams Tanks were sent to Ukraine, and they were pulled from reserve stocks from the USA. So now the USA has to replenish their old tank stocks, and maintain a minimum amount of Abrams Tanks in reserve.
30 Abrams were sent to Ukraine. THIRTY. That's a drop in the bucket: US has 1,500 in reserve.

Also, why the fuck do you sound like an LLM?

>>23365333
It was announced around 2023/2024. You need to dig further back in the archives. If you don't follow military news closely, then you would have missed it.

>>23365333
>That's a drop in the bucket: US has 1,500 in reserve.
To be fair, most of those are very old models, and have been sitting in desert outside storage for decades. They are not ready to be deployed and need to be completely overhauled.

>>23365333

Don't use AI to find news for you.
This is old news anon.

They have already announced the Abrams is going back into production.

>>23365706
>>23365502
>It was announced around 2023/2024. You need to dig further back in the archives.
The closest I can find anywhere about new hulls of any kind being made in Lima is this, which refers to the M10 Booker: https://www.limaohio.com/top-stories/2024/05/20/major-improvements-coming-to-limas-tank-plant/
And no, I'm not going on wild goose chases. You provide a source that supports your claim that Lima is manufacturing brand new Abrams hulls. The latest version for the US Army, M1E3, are all made from existing hulls.

>>23366690
The M10 Booker was cancelled. The USA decided it doesn't want it.

>>23366777
It was cancelled two months ago, after they took stock of 80 vehicles.

>>23365333
>30 Abrams were sent to Ukraine. THIRTY. That's a drop in the bucket: US has 1,500 in reserve.

You absolute idiot. Stop embarrassing yourself.

-Poland just purchased 400 Abrams Tanks.

-Bahrain purchased 50 Abrams Tanks.

-Romania ordered 54 Abrams Tanks.

-Taiwan ordered 70 Abrams Tanks.

-Australia ordered 75 Abrams Tanks.

>Also, why the fuck do you sound like an LLM?

Why the hell are you so badly informed, and pretending to a military expert? Your Google skills suck. You aren't as smart or clever as you think.

>>23366813
>You absolute idiot. Stop embarrassing yourself.
Speak for yourself. You are one babbling about things you know absolutely jack shit.

>Poland just purchased 400 Abrams Tanks.
>Bahrain purchased 50 Abrams Tanks.
>Romania ordered 54 Abrams Tanks.
>Taiwan ordered 70 Abrams Tanks.
>Australia ordered 75 Abrams Tanks.
In case you were not aware, every single one of those comes from an existing hull and fully overhauled in Lima Plant to whatever specification is required. They are not building any new ones and have not done so since 2000, when the last hulls for exports were done. This book I'm citing (Zaloga's "M1A2 Abrams Main Battle Tank, 1993-2018") is from 2019, by the way.
According to Routledge's Military Balance 2025, the US Army currently has 2,640 M1 units in active service, and some 1,500 in their reserve. For the foreseeable future, inactive stock of hulls in the US is more than enough to supply export customers.

>>23366690
Different anon here. The reporter of that article has already confirmed it was in reference to Abrams tank hulls. Several other organizations and people at the event also confirmed the same thing. The investment in expanding the factory is still on going. So the production line probably isn't at 100% or at least large quantity. Government red tape takes a long while. But it's possible to have a few new builds for testing by now.

>>23366939
The issue is that not all of those Abrams are the latest SEP v3 variant. Many of them are much older. And active service doesn't necessaroly mean front lines. It could just mean parked at a local base. The US military has to keep a certain reserve of SEP v3 for themselves. They can't keep up with demand while also selling to other countries.

>>23367101
>The issue is that not all of those Abrams are the latest SEP v3 variant. Many of them are much older.
Exactly. That's why General Dynamics has a cost-plus contract to upgrade them for the foreseeable future. And if Lima can't keep up with demand, there's another line in Anniston Army Depot, plus whatever facilities local the customers can set up overseas.

>They can't keep up with demand while also selling to other countries.
Demand of what? SEPv3? Because, again, this whole debate is whether the Abrams is still in active production (ie. new hulls built from scratch), rather than just taking existing vehicles from the yard and rebuild them to modern standards.
Because no, there are no brand new Abrams hulls being made. Ditto with most Western tanks: Leclercs haven't been built since 2010, Challenger 2s since 2002, and the only plant making still new Leopard 2 hulls is in Greece.
>The US Army is able to produce a maximum of 35 M1A2SEPv3 a month at the Lima plant in Ohio with a standard rate of 12 per month and one shift at 40 hours per week.
And if there was some sort of urgency, the US Army still has over a thousand SEPv2s. Not state-of-the-art, but still miles better than the old M1A1s they sent to Ukraine.