If ZAFT had to deal with the Earth Federation (pre U.C. 0079) instead, would there have even been a war?

>>23393009 (OP)
Different levels of technology, manpower and policy to deal with. While the Earth Alliance in SEED is a conglomeration of three superpowers (which don't get along with each other), the UC's Federation encompasses not just Earth as a one-world government, but also the other space habitats.
Compared to the gargantuan fleets of the EFSF, the EA has a fraction of that level of power projection in space.

>>23393049
I'm thinking less about whether ZAFT would be able to win and more if the two parties could come to an amicable agreement that would prevent the need for a war in the first place.

>>23393080
That's a matter of policy.
On one hand, you don't have Contolism going around, so PLANT (ZAFT is the name of the armed forces, not the country proper) wouldn't be as much as a threat as Zeon was to the Federation.
On the other, however, the Federation is adamant about it being the sole hegemon of the Earth sphere (regardless of how weak it ends up becoming eventually). Which means in practice that PLANT would have to fight for its independence; they would probably be attacked by the Federation first in order to quell any attempt at a rebellion. The other alternative is to amass enough economic/industrial power within the Earth sphere in order to get the Federation to, at least, recognize them as a neutral power.

I'm leaving aside any and all commentary on Coordinator/Natural conflict (plus Earth supremacists like the Titans), as that's another sack of potatoes that would make a mess of the whole conversation.

>>23393085
I just don't know if the Federation would go far enough or even press the right buttons to get ZAFT to that point in the first place. I think two points would be their stance on coordination, coordinator fertility rates, and the PLANTs desire to grow their own food.

>>23393085
>I'm leaving aside any and all commentary on Coordinator/Natural conflict (plus Earth supremacists like the Titans), as that's another sack of potatoes that would make a mess of the whole conversation.

But that's actually a pretty interesting thing to ponder on.
How would Coordinators and Naturals react to each others' presence? If Zeon Zum Deikun were present, would Contolism consider them as part of his idea of humanity's evolution? Would Coordinators even be able to interact with Psycommu and the Psychoframe technology?

>>23393085
Coordinator supremacy ideals would probably be seen more of a threat to the feddies than contolism. Newtypes are invisible until whacky psychic shit starts happening, coordinators are very clearly super human. If anything I'd expect the feddies to basically go full blue cosmos and form a oyw version of the titans. For the sake of the discussion I'm pretending that the tech levels start relatively even because seed tech is far beyond oyw stuff and there wouldn't really be a contest otherwise.

>>23393129
>would Contolism consider them as part of his idea of humanity's evolution
Hell no. It's literally artificial powers instead of natural selection and evolution, do you know what evolution means?

Deikun's newtypes are supposed to be enlightened human beings, but coincidentally a bunch of people with special brainwaves and psychic abilities popped up only two decades after Deikun died and in the confusion of the one year war they ended up being labeled as newtype, even though some of them are greedy, evil, or violent and aren't enlightened at all. Cyber newtypes are people artificially given these psychic abilities, and they are even farther from Deikun's intentions since artificially obtaining power at the expense of health and morality is completely counter to the idea of being peaceful enlightened people.

>Would Coordinators even be able to interact with Psycommu and the Psychoframe technology?
Dude you need psychic brainwaves to use psycommu and psycoframe, that has nothing to do with coordinator genetic enhancement. This is like asking "Can a calculator connect to my bluetooth headphones?".

>>23393146
>>23393137
Contolism means, in a nutshell:
>EVERYONE leaves Earth to space, no exceptions
>life in space forces humankind to evolve spontaneously
The Federation has major issues with the former, while officially considers the latter to be a bunch of baloney for kooks.

>>23393137
>because seed tech is far beyond oyw stuff
It was only later on that power levels went crazy in CE. A GINN is functionally very similar to an MS-06, except with batteries instead of a Minovsky nuclear fusion drive.

>>23393152
Even if we are only considering the very start of the war, a ginn is far stronger than the zeon equivalent zaku. It can use fucking ion cannons for fucks sake. Zakus couldn't use beam weapons of any sort without an external generator. That's also not considering stuff like the EA's gunbarrels, phaseshift in general, or mirage colonoscopy wundertech. Hell, the even EA's ball equivalent could use both railguns and beam cannons and was still considered a ball tier fodder unit. A moebius would be ace unit tier in the oyw, much less the superior zaft stuff.

>>23393152
There's only about 5 months from the start of Seed (January 25 CE71) to when the Freedom appears (June CE71). If you count the start of the war (February CE70) then it's about 16 months or 1.3 years

>>23393166
>the even EA's ball equivalent could use both railguns and beam cannons
Moebius Zero had the same railgun but the railgun was so bad that a direct hit to a Ginn's chest only knocked it off balance, even when a competent named character was using it. Moebius never had a beam cannon as a real option, that only ever showed up in magazine and databook lore as a testing prototype that never made it to production.

>>23393175
That says more about how superior zaft tech was at the start of the war than anything. You think a ball would do better?

How would ZAFT go about fighting this war if it broke out anyway? As mentioned earlier, they're outnumbered by a lot more this time around. I'm unsure how badly the N-Jammers would fuck up the Earth this time around, but even if they did a fair bit of damage, a number of Spacenoids might join the fray regardless.
Their main focus at the start was acquiring all the mass drivers, right?

>>23393009 (OP)
The federation, believe it or not, are actual good guys. They're hated for doing the necessary evils, but they're ontologically good. They wouldn't bother ZAFT unless ZAFT starts dropping nukes.

>>EVERYONE leaves Earth to space, no exceptions
The federation is mostly onboard with this plan. By mid-UC they've mass deported large swathes of the planet, which is why guys like Sweetwater turn to Zeon. They're refugees who got displaced into space after the first neo zeon and One Year wars.

>>23393166
The Ion Cannons aren't powered by the Ginn, they have a battery pack too. Miniaturized beam technology really slapped ZAFT in the fucking face. Even when they made their own gundams, they couldn't get the power usage down enough which is why they had to resort to nuclear reactors, DESPITE having the stolen gundam data. The GuAIZ experimental firearms unit could only run for a few minutes while using the PS and beam weapons, which were basically the same as the Freedom's rifle and Justice's beam cannons.

Meanwhile the EA's Calamity Gundam had VPS and FOUR beam weapons, 5 if you consider the linked-fire double barrel shield beam guns as separate weapons. And 3 of them were massive beam cannons, one of them being the Aegis's absolutely massive 580mm beam cannon that could bisect a battleship, and it ran all on battery. And keep in mind, the Freedom's twin cannons were only about as strong as the Launcher Strike's cannon. Given, each. The Calamity had the Scylla which was stronger AND two more beam cannons that were almost comparable.

>>23393080
I'm going to rip off the bandaid. Having a group of genetically modified ubermench in mass don't work in any setting. I don't care if it's augments in star trek or coordinators in seed. Inherent inequality and human nature make for a powder keg regardless.

Would the Feddies be that autistically racist against Coordinators?

>>23393009 (OP)
A chief difference is the Feds aren't straight-up genocidal and can be bargained with. They also have much more colonies. With how corrupt the Feds are, just bribe them with Coordinator pussy the same way Zeons bribe with spacenoid pussy.

>>23393009 (OP)
The Federation won’t care as long as PLANTS pays its taxes or negotiates peacefully for independence.

Don't forget that an entire Side(#6?) was independent before the OYW and Zeon was functionally independent for the 20 years leading up to them starting the OYW.

>>23393522
People seem to forget that despite Blue Cosmos bs, millions of Coordinators still lived in Earth Alliance territory and many volunteered to fight against the ZAFT for patriotic reasons.

>>23393194
Problem was that a regular machine gun can take down a Ginn just fine, it's only the railgun that sucks dick

>>23393507
>EVERYONE leaves Earth to space, no exceptions
>The federation is mostly onboard with this plan. By mid-UC they've mass deported large swathes of the planet, which is why guys like Sweetwater turn to Zeon. They're refugees who got displaced into space after the first neo zeon and One Year wars.
The problem is with the "mostly". Spacenoids resent that Earth is still being treated as a playground for the elites, while regular people are forcefully sent to space. That, and the problem of political representation from the Sides, is what feeds the resentment.
This eventually becomes irrelevant as the Federation gets progressively weaker by the mid 2nd century, but they could've avoided a lot of headaches (and wars) if they had an actual political plan alongside the technical endeavour of colony construction.

>>23393522
>Even when they made their own gundams, they couldn't get the power usage down enough which is why they had to resort to nuclear reactors, DESPITE having the stolen gundam data.
Anon, you're forgetting that the GuAIZ has a beam rifle. You're thinking of the elite units with overpowered experimental weapons, rather than designing for mass-production. The big draw was always phase shift; once you remove the full system used in the Gundams, you can power a lot of weapons. It also became irrelevant once everyone was equipped with beam weapons.

testt

>>23393522
>Miniaturized beam technology really slapped ZAFT in the fucking face. Even when they made their own gundams, they couldn't get the power usage down enough which is why they had to resort to nuclear reactors, DESPITE having the stolen gundam data.
That's just a problem with PS armor. Andy's LaGOWE had beam sabers and twin beam cannon that it kept firing repeatedly. CGUE DEEP Arms had twin beam cannons and a laser sword, and the only problems it had were with cooling. Dreadnought Gundam could be battery powered when it didn't have the NJC equipped, but had to keep the PS armor turned off when doing so. Then there's the range of ZAFT aquatic MS armed with phonon masers that aren't quite beams but still ended up working similarly.

Also, nuclear power was less of a band-aid solution and more that ZAFT just wanted higher power MS in general. The prototype ZAKU had a nuclear reactor even though it had no beam weapons by default.

>>23394055
>Andy's LaGOWE had beam sabers and twin beam cannon that it kept firing repeatedly
Those are peashooters.

>CGUE DEEP Arms had twin beam cannons
Needed an extended battery pack on the backpacks to power them, and they're just ultimately prototypes for the GuAIZ's rifle. High power for a grunt, but not real cannons like the Calamity, Launcher Strike, Aegis, etc. Regardless, ZAFT couldn't figure out efficient enough beam weapons to have both PS and beam weaponry and they struggled with smaller caliber beam weapons while the EA was throwing around basically WMDs.

>>23393873
The GuAIZ itself was a high-end MS, considering it shares the same base frame as the ZAFT gundams but with a reactor instead of battery.

>>23393722
>Don't forget that an entire Side(#6?) was independent before the OYW and Zeon was functionally independent for the 20 years leading up to them starting the OYW.
Side 6 wasn't truly independent till the war started, and what light independence it had pre-war consisted of pitting the Feds and Zeon against each other. (See the manga of the supply corps guy from episode 3 walking his Zaku through Side 6 intimidating Federation tanks into not crushing a protest)

>>23393175
>>23393749
The railgun being worse than the smaller conventional autocannons on the same damned machine comes off as just bad fight coreography.

>>23394078
>Regardless, ZAFT couldn't figure out efficient enough beam weapons to have both PS and beam weaponry and they struggled with smaller caliber beam weapons
The kicker was that the Earth Alliance had developed trans-Phase Shift that's behind the outer armor. The second you do not need to have the armor constantly turned on means you can redirect that energy to other systems.
And, again, once you had beam rifles available to everyone, PS is a dumb luxury for gundams that only defends against kinetic weapons.

>while the EA was throwing around basically WMDs.
Those were exactly three overengineered mobile suits serving at the whim of a single individual. The bulk of their forces had old battleships and Strike Daggers, a stopgap MS design.
Unless you are talking about the reactivated nuclear weapons, which are literal WMDs.

>>23394114
I think the idea is that the railguns are tenderizing the armor to the point that the auto cannons can do the rest of the work.

>>23394078
>The GuAIZ itself was a high-end MS, considering it shares the same base frame as the ZAFT gundams
Not really. The GuAIZ is a designe derived from the CGUE with upgrades from the stolen Gundams, including the compact beam weapons.

>>23393730
Some are more Eurasian Federation than Atlantic. Those guys at the asteroid base were cool sheltering Kira.

>>23394078
>considering it shares the same base frame as the ZAFT gundams but with a reactor instead of battery.
The GuiAZ was already a project before those MS got captured. What capturing the Gundams did was give ZAFT a shock for what the Earth Alliance had been cooking up, thus adding beams to the existing GuiAZ project.

>>23394187
He's probably just mistaken, there is one Gundam it did share a frame with and that was the Dreadnought, but outside of the experimental firearms GuAIZ, there's not a super lot in common between the GuAIZ and the X09A through X13A.

>>23393085
>commentary on Coordinator/Natural conflict

How would Coordinators and Newtypes view each other?

>>23394359
I can honestly see Coordinators looking at Newtypes (or perhaps Newtypism more specifically) as cucks resting on their laurels waiting for the universe to give them a pat on the ass and the next stage of humanity for doing nothing but sitting around in space. A comforting notion, but little else. This obviously changes a bit when Newtypes start emerging both within their populace and elsewhere. From there, any number of responses. Not sure how Newtypes would feel about Coordinators. They're a lot less cohesive as a people.

>>23394359
The interesting part is that (actual) Newtypes don't see themselves as such. It's not an identity, but rather a phenomenon it happens to them for reasons that aren't clear.

>>23394701
>I can honestly see Coordinators looking at Newtypes (or perhaps Newtypism more specifically) as cucks resting on their laurels waiting for the universe to give them a pat on the ass and the next stage of humanity for doing nothing but sitting around in space
That's one alternative. The other is that Coordinators begin to see the spontaneous emergence of Newtypes as proof that their "evolutionary road" (to use Patrick's words) is indeed the chosen one, hence, the more reason to put distance between themselves and the old race.

>>23394750
I can imagine the folks at Mendel (is Mendel still kicking in this scenario?) being a little bitter about the scenario. All the work and hours trying to perfect the coordination process only for Jack across the street to evolve into a psychic for being in space?

>>23394790
Mendel exists as a lab for genetic research, especially when it comes to creating coordinators, yes. It was abandoned after there was a virus outbreak, and it was suspected that Blue Cosmos was behind it but never confirmed.

Whether or not the lab would still be running depends on whether the EF has anti-coordinator terrorists in their ranks just like the EA did. At some point you have to ask if this scenario is just swapping the EA's equipment with the EF's equipment, or are we dealing with the EA who now have more natural newtypes than just Mwu and his oft-referenced but never seen Moebius Zero squadron.

At the very least, the EF has learning computers that would quickly accelerate MS pilot training and not require as much reliance on coordinator assistance, and they're not as xenophobic about MS in general, so barely anyone's going to be developing mobile armors in this situation.

Wouldn't the jammers not work on UC reactors?

>>23394860
No, UC reactors are nuclear fusion.

>>23394860
>>23394892
Depends on how deep this what-if situation goes. I mean, obviously it'd be retarded to still drop N-Jammers all over the Earth if they won't actually do anything to the EF's global power industry. But would that mean the coordinators just develop a different kind of jammer that targets and blocks fusion reactions, or even minovsky particle reactions?

>>23394949
The jammers were out of fear from being nuked and much of CE Earth replies on fission reactors so unless UC Earth deploys fusion-based bombs, there ought to be little need. Also, it was in response to Azrael nuking Julius 7 that sparked the big nuke fear.

>>23393166
Dont forget that your average coordinator is an ace tier by human standards even then their tech advancement would make leaps and bounds, it wouldnt matter if the EF had psycommu since they could reverse engineer it in no time.

I dont think there would be a war, Coordinators would be integrated into the EF as they are invaluable resources. no real need to nuke a Plant and there will be no real catalyst for conflict, especially with no Blue Cosmos within the EF

>>23393722
>pays its taxes
eat a nuke

>>23393009 (OP)
Given the Feds are keen to kick everyone out of Earth except the rich and they have no Blue Cosmos, methinks the Clyne Faction would easily win them over with Coordinator pussy.

>>23393009 (OP)
why is their flag zelda + brazil

>>23394359
Newtypes would shatter the Coordinator's political beliefs of the next stage of human evolution, especially considering Newtypes can emerge from Earth.

>>23402782
>Newtypes would shatter the Coordinator's political beliefs of the next stage of human evolution
Why would they? Newtypes existed within the CE too. Besides, it's not like you can't tweak the coordination process to hone in on psychic abilities.
>especially considering Newtypes can emerge from Earth.
You think this would have given people pause just once in setting.

>>23403292
As far as I know, they never specifically gave anyone newtype abilities via coordination. Rau was just a clone of Al Da Flaga who was amazing enough to perform on par with coordinators, so no one suspected a thing. Accords are.. something else? They have mental abilities to screw with people but it's not quite the same thing as a typical newtype, and none of the accords had a newtype interaction with Shinn or Kira.

The problem is that somehow no one ever cared much that some people are better than others at spatial awareness. The EA formed just one squadron of people like Mwu just to fly the Moebius Zero but they all died except for him, and they were never studied. They were so rare that at one point Fukada said that Mwu and Rau were CE's last newtypes (until he retconned his own statement years later by giving Kira and Shinn newtype flashes). Then ZAFT developed the quantum communication tech that makes it easier for anyone to use remote weapons, so there's even less incentive to study high spatial awareness and search for people with that ability.

>>23393009 (OP)
For a moment, I thought the bottom flag was Brazil flag.
I forgot how similar the flag are, is it coincidence or is there a deeper meaning?
Also, isn't C.E technology is more advanced compared to U.C 79?

>>23403499
>I forgot how similar the flag are, is it coincidence or is there a deeper meaning?
Jaburo is in Brazil, I'm pretty sure.

>>23403292
>Why would they

Say for example in this scenario that Newtypes (UC variant) exists, then the Earth Alliance could spin this as Naturals reaching to new heights unlike Coordinators.

Then again, likely that the EA would turn on newtypes.

>>23403795
>Then again, likely that the EA would turn on newtypes.
it's just going to be same old tired story of newtypes used as weapons and the obligatory cyber newtype thing

>>23403473
Everyone's too caught up in the race war to care about Newtypes really

>>23403795
They were already aware of newtypes, just classified them as people with high spatial awareness. The Moebius Zero was made specifically for pilots with high spatial awareness