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Thread 126974150

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Anonymous No.126974150 >>126974164 >>126974169 >>126974184 >>126974228 >>126974334 >>126974628 >>126974702 >>126974739 >>126975598 >>126975623 >>126976748 >>126977154 >>126983332 >>126983733 >>126984268 >>126984418
If Zappa hated "cliche" chord progressions, why did he also have a dislike for the Beatles, who from the very start made use of very novel chord progressions and song structures?
Anonymous No.126974164 >>126974711
>>126974150 (OP)
>caring about what zappa says
Anonymous No.126974169 >>126974488 >>126977958
>>126974150 (OP)
>very novel chord progressions and song structures?
Huh? I have never heard that before in my life.
Anonymous No.126974184 >>126974488 >>126974643
>>126974150 (OP)
>the Beatles, who from the very start made use of very novel chord progressions and song structures?
Anonymous No.126974203 >>126976197
as talented as he was, Zappa was most of all a condescending contrarian
he seemed to hate anything slightly successful, and claimed to be influenced by only the most avant-garde classical composers, when really only a small portion of his music seemed to be derived of them
most of what he did was quirky rock or jazz fusion
Anonymous No.126974228 >>126976083
>>126974150 (OP)
popular thing bad
he constantly tooted his own horn for digging obscure 50s r&b records before anyone else
Anonymous No.126974243 >>126976204
if Zappa was anti-racist then how come he was in black face on Joe's Garage?
Anonymous No.126974334 >>126974343 >>126974488
>>126974150 (OP)
without seeing what he said it sounds like he mightve disliked him for reasons unrelated to the chord progressions
Anonymous No.126974343
>>126974334
*them
Anonymous No.126974488 >>126974715 >>126976220 >>126981445
>>126974169
>>126974184

Check out it won't be long, with a 7 bar verse, a bridge that follows a chromatic downward pattern, starting a e minor, going to B aug, then to D6, then to C#7, then F#m - B, then A - B, then going back to the verse, which is E major and C major, the C Major being a flat VI chord. Not very common for those days.

>>126974334
I was kinda exagerrating, but he claims he didn't like how commercialized they were. He did say he liked 2 or 3 of their songs (iirc, one of them being Strawberry Fields Forever). I just think it's odd that given the Beatles were always forward thinking, had a good work ethic, and wrote unique songs that stand up to this day, and Zappa said stuff like he "preferred the Monkees", while saying the Beatles were "a good commercial group" but the fucking Monkees were literally formed as a TV band and had session songwriters and session players on their albums. Why would he prefer an industry plant creation to a group that very obviously put in the hard work to come up with the level of songwriting ability. He also wanted to congratulate Prince on his work ethic, and the Beatles had a similar work ethic, but it's radio silence on his end for that as well.
Anonymous No.126974565 >>126975443 >>126983341
Here's some examples of Zappa hating on "cliche" chord progressions

>MUSICIAN: You don't write many things in II-V-I.

>ZAPPA: I've always been against dominant chords resolving to tonic chords. That, to me, is just the bottom line of white person music.

>MUSICIAN: Isn't that ever present in black person's music?

>ZAPPA: Mmm ... not always the same way – your old stock V-I. You get a lot of IV-Is in black music, and you get a lot of II-Vs, and other stuff. But that goddam V-I, and those goddamn jazz guys with II-V-I, and modulating the fucking thing around the Circle of Fifths. Why they have their nerve!

>ZAPPA: Since I don't like the sound of II-V-I, theoretically I must also like the sound of something else. And there are of course progressions that I like a lot, and I use them all the time. I go for what I like, rather than just a conscious attempt to wage a war against II-V-I. I just don't like II-V-I, unless you want to use it as a joke.

Like he talks all this shit about the ii - V - I, but then he makes countless doo wop "pastiches" where it's often times nothing but ii V I. This is what I'm referring to.
Anonymous No.126974628 >>126975102
>>126974150 (OP)
there is an 80s mtv interview where he concedes that the beatles were great, just not his thing personally
Anonymous No.126974643
>>126974184
Now post the whole thing, pussy
Anonymous No.126974702
>>126974150 (OP)
faulty logic
Anonymous No.126974711
>>126974164
I do
Anonymous No.126974715 >>126975102 >>126976247
>>126974488
Sorry but that would necessitate listening to The Beatles, I'll take your word for it. Also, Frank preferring The Monkees may be an example of him being asinine and fatuous. Or perhaps he preferred them because they were genuinely fake and appealed to his cynicism?
Anonymous No.126974739 >>126975828
>>126974150 (OP)
He didn't dislike The Beatles, that was all bullshit, Dweezil said he actually liked and respected them, plus he did a very sincere cover of I Am the Walrus on the 88 tour and he has mentioned in interviews liking other songs and he claimed Revolver as the best album of 1966.
Anonymous No.126974837
He often was too arch for his own good.
Anonymous No.126975102 >>126975607
>>126974715
Ahh i see. And that makes sense to me.
>>126974628
yeh i saw that, but their songwriting was so unique and different from the other stuff that he claimed to have a distaste for
Anonymous No.126975443
>>126974565
Yeah its because he was just a corny self hating racist. Making some good music doesn't disqualify you from making hypocritical or retarded statements.
Anonymous No.126975598 >>126975631 >>126976276
>>126974150 (OP)
Imagine a room with Lou Reed, Kurt Cobain, John Lennon & Frank Zappa together? Do you think it would cause a contrarian black hole?
Anonymous No.126975607
>>126975102
>Ahh i see
Peace love.
Anonymous No.126975623
>>126974150 (OP)
zappa just hated music
Anonymous No.126975631
>>126975598
i'm too busy imagining a hand grenade
Anonymous No.126975828
>>126974739
I can see that, and I didn't know that he thought so well of Revolver.
Anonymous No.126976083
>>126974228
>popular thing bad
he really liked stan getz and miles davis, and they were both huge back then
Anonymous No.126976197
>>126974203
Frank Zappa was also very much into Doo Wop music.
Anonymous No.126976204 >>126976214
>>126974243
That wasn't "Black Face".
He was covered in with either axle grease or motor oil.
Hence the name, Joe's Garage.
Anonymous No.126976214 >>126976293
>>126976204
then why is it only on his face?
Anonymous No.126976220 >>126976278
>>126974488
Considering he lived in Laurel Canyon, Frank Zappa probably knew all The Monkees personally.

Also, The Monkees was the only TV show back in the 1960s that he was allowed to appear on, and they let him have a cameo in Head.
Anonymous No.126976247 >>126976586
>>126974715
And what, exactly, do you have against The Beatles?
Anonymous No.126976276 >>126976387
>>126975598
Why would that cause a contrarian black hole?
>And keep in mind that, before he died, Lou Reed actually admitted to have a modicum of RESPECT for The Beatles and what they did, no matter how many times he said he hated them when he was with The Velvet Underground.....
Anonymous No.126976278 >>126976376
>>126976220
You do know his appearance on the Monkees was a conceptual continuity with his appearance on the Tonight Show with Steve Allen. It represents his sound maturing (going from playing a bicycle to playing a car.)

Also, he couldn't have hated the Beatles too much. He cast Ringo for 200 Motels. Paul McCartney told Zappa that Sgt. Pepper's was their attempt at making Freak Out.

Hell, even the Zappa vs Reed feud couldn't have been that bad seeing as Frank did the Foley art for The Gift on WLWH. I think FZ just got off from being the smartest guy in the room and the easiest way to LARP that is to point out how shitty stuff is great and great stuff is shit.
Anonymous No.126976293 >>126987629
>>126976214
How the fuck should I know?
I'm not Frank Zappa.
Anonymous No.126976376
>>126976278
Frank Zappa's appearance on Steve Allen's show was in 1963, when he was clean cut, and three years before Freak Out was released. Frank Zappa was, for the most part, BLACKLISTED in The U.S. and was almost virtually BANNED from radio airplay, and television appearances. (Of course quite a few people ignored the ban and the blacklist, like NBC and PBS, and he would actually get radio airplay on some U.S. radio stations, and even have some of his concerts broadcast live, but most TV networks, and radio stations wouldn't play his records, or have him on TV)

Also thanks for bringing up Ringo Starr in 200 Motels. I was gong to make a post about that, but you saved me the trouble.

I never heard anything about Paul McCartney telling Frank Zappa that Sgt. Pepper was The Beatles attempt to make their version of Freak Out, but everybody knows the story about how Sgt. Pepper was The Beatles version of Pet Sounds.
Of course when it comes to Zappa and The Beatles, John Lennon sent Frank Zappa a telegram after We're Only In It For The Money came out telling Frank that next time he wanted to spoof, parody, or make fun of The Beatles, Frank should contact John first for some tips, and pointers.
Interestingly enough, John might've been the only Beatle that Frank had any problems with, especially concerning the Sometime in New York album.

And lastly, I always thought it was ironic that Lou Reed and Frank Zappa allegedly hated each other while they were both on the same record label at the time.
>Just sayin'....
Anonymous No.126976387
>>126976276
I mean in general, them in a room talking about music not just on The Beatles, I should say Cobain loved The Beatles as well
Anonymous No.126976586 >>126980029
>>126976247
The dynamic of the band gives me a headache. And then I didn't grow up in a The Beatles household so it never really took hold with me. I'm just not massively into The Beatles.
Anonymous No.126976748
>>126974150 (OP)
Cause he's a talentless hack
Anonymous No.126977154
>>126974150 (OP)
He was a try hard who talked about of his ass with none of it being interesting.
Anonymous No.126977958 >>126981434
>>126974169
Happiness Is A Warm Gun
Strawberry Fields Forever
Blue Jay Way
Because
I Want You (She's So Heavy)
Revolution #9
Tomorrow Never Knows
I Am The Walrus
A Day In the Life
For the Benefit of Mr. Kite!


I think for a band that started as a teeny bopper rock pop group, I would consider the songs I listed to definitely be experimental and novel in the pop writing world. Novel song structure, melodies, harmony, time signatures, tape experiments etc. Disagreeing would be really obtuse and try hard. These are unconventional interesting experimental songs, whether you enjoy them or not is up to you. Their experiments with songwriting and recording far outweighed anything their contemporaries attempted like The Kinks, The Stones, they didn't reach for the stars like The Beatles.

Zappa was a try hard rabble rouser who disliked the Beatles before it was fashionable, good for him. He wasn't against commercial music though because he was a self reported Black Sabbath fan. Beyond those noteworthy experimental songs I think the Beatles were obviously the best band of the 1960s but yes Frank and The Mothers were super genius themselves.
Anonymous No.126980029 >>126981708
>>126976586
>The dynamic of the band gives me a headache
What exactly is the dynamic of the band?
Anonymous No.126980647
Zappa was a hack
Anonymous No.126980829
it was just seethe at americans being outclassed by foreigners who appreciated rock music
there's no point overthinking it
Anonymous No.126981434 >>126985397
>>126977958
>lists 7 John Lennon songs
>Lennon was the Beatle least prone to experiment (save Ringo)
Anonymous No.126981445
>>126974488
He was a contrarian.
Anonymous No.126981708 >>126981742
>>126980029
Make up your own mind about things I'm not here to tell you how the world is.
Anonymous No.126981742 >>126981762
>>126981708
what does that mean? You're the one to assert something, define it. The dynamics of the band is a very vague term, and I doubt you even know what it means yourself
Anonymous No.126981762 >>126982957
>>126981742
Anonymous No.126982957
>>126981762
yes that is me that made the post
Anonymous No.126983067
I don't think Zappa ever hated the Beatles. Zappa hated the consumerism of hippie culture. Biggest band on earth wearing fake mustaches and singing about LSD, millions upon millions of dollars going to corporations as a result, yknow

"We're Only in it For the Money" is not referring to the Beatles, although it would be pretty apt for some of them as it went on
Anonymous No.126983332
>>126974150 (OP)
edgy contrarianism
Anonymous No.126983341 >>126987386
>>126974565
>Like he talks all this shit about the ii - V - I, but then he makes countless doo wop "pastiches" where it's often times nothing but ii V I. This is what I'm referring to.


I do agree with him about disliking the dominant 5th back to the 1 because it can feel like it's too obvious of a way out, if you can avoid it then you can sometimes do something more interesting. I don't dislike it in other music though, maybe he had the same thing where he felt weird about doing it himself.

Zappa also used to like soloing over a drone, maybe for the same reason
Anonymous No.126983733 >>126984373
>>126974150 (OP)
he was a doo-wop fan, a genre in which literally every song uses I-vi-IV-V
Zappa just liked to talk shit
Anonymous No.126984268 >>126986222
>>126974150 (OP)
he hated Lennon only
Lennon and Yoko asked to play live with him, and got a chance to go on stage with the Mothers once during a performance of King Kong
Lennon recorded the live appearance, cut a portion of it, released it as his own under the name Jam Rag and never credited Zappa, so they got into a dispute
Anonymous No.126984302 >>126986222
Zappa hated music. That's why he was dead set on making the ugliest, most abominable shit possible
Anonymous No.126984373
>>126983733
>Zappa just liked to talk shit
This too, generational shit talker
Anonymous No.126984418
>>126974150 (OP)
He hated drugs and hippies more than chord structures
Anonymous No.126984522
He was talented but he was a poser. He also poo poo'd Mozart and praised Beethoven just because Beethoven is obviously more progressive even if you only scratch the surface of the music. But like you point out with the Beatles it's a surface level understanding
Anonymous No.126985397
>>126981434
You’re gonna have to elaborate here. I just listed their 7 most experimental songs and you claim that Lennon was the least experimental? John was the leader for the songs he composed with a lot of input from Paul and George Martin, that much I’ll admit. But Paul’s songs were never as experimental as the ones I listed. Paul’s special quality was his ability to do many different styles of songwriting compared to Lennon’s more straight forward tendencies. However the most sonically, compositionally, and performance based songs were born from Lennon, so your reply doesn’t make much sense. Is Paul the more experimental one for his exploration of more already established genres than Lennon’s art rock explorations into territories not heard in pop music prior? Seems like a hard sell you’re trying to make.
Anonymous No.126985935 >>126987359 >>126987589
Paul had the best melodies. Lennon was great at novel sonic experiences in pop music but loses to Paul in the harpsichord test
Anonymous No.126986222
>>126984268
Yeh it's funny because Lennon you'd think would be the Beatle that Zappa would like the most. And even Zappa himself got into music industry spats with others, such as Beefheart, over shit like royalties. Several of the early Mothers bandmembers felt like they deserved more credit for their contributions, and that extended to songwriting credit.

>>126984302
I've been on a Zappa binge, and although I agree it's ugly, it's ugly because he was influenced by both 20th century classical and rock and roll, and the combination of his interests made for very interesting music to the point that its ugliness can be overcome.
Anonymous No.126987359
>>126985935
Paul had the best melodies and wrote all the "catchy" Beatles songs that never leave your head, John wrote the "heady" Beatles songs that were acclaimed for their concepts.
Anonymous No.126987386
>>126983341
he also solo'd over a sort of unresolving chord progression, like I - II in the lydian mode, or im7 - bIImaj7
Anonymous No.126987589
>>126985935
compare pauls christmas song with johns christmas song
john forever lol
Anonymous No.126987629
>>126976293
you better tell me you fucking asshole piece of shit