Thread 127526177

>As one of the greatest composers in film, John Williams has written some of the most memorable music in cinema for masterpieces such as Jaws, Jurassic Park and Star Wars.
>But despite winning five Oscars, the 93-year-old believes that, as an art form, film music pales in comparison to history’s great works.
>“I never liked film music very much,” he confessed in a rare interview for a forthcoming biography.
>He added: “Film music, however good it can be – and it usually isn’t, other than maybe an eight-minute stretch here and there … I just think the music isn’t there. That, what we think of as this precious great film music is … we’re remembering it in some kind of nostalgic way …
>“Just the idea that film music has the same place in the concert hall as the best music in the canon is a mistaken notion, I think.”
>He added: “A lot of [film music] is ephemeral. It’s certainly fragmentary and, until somebody reconstructs it, it isn’t anything that we can even consider as a concert piece.”

HAHAHAHAHAHA

>>127526177 (OP)
Kek, based.

>>127526177 (OP)
>film music pales in comparison to history’s great works
lol no shit

>>127526177 (OP)
Very much correct. Doesn't undo the damage his gay music has caused though.

He's right. Film music is most if the time just supposed to sound good for a certain moment and nothing else. On its own it's not art.

he's the classical equivalent of a jingle writer lmao

>>127526177 (OP)
He's right. All special snowflakes must be raped and murdered. We will find their safe spaces and crush them into paste.

>>127526283
I think anyone who listens to soundtracks on it's own are retarded but the music does elevate certain movie scenes. Especially lord of the rings.

I mean this goes without saying and he isn't one of the "greats" but he is fine for the medium he works in

>>127526177 (OP)
Correct, but don't tell that to film score and videogame music listeners (they're retarded faggots with no taste who think otherwise).

>>127526305
You really don't know what you're talking about. Film music isn't classical, which is exactly his point. He's also written actual classical works, like a symphony and several concertos, so he's an actual classical composer as well.

>>127526177 (OP)
That’s his opinion but he’s wrong

Williams said George Lucas asked him to make the Star Wars theme "kinda like Holsts The Planets" so Williams just ripped it off and rearranged it.

total hack

>>127526177 (OP)
WTF HOW IS HE STILL ALIVE? That nigga was already an old man when I was a babby and I'm nearly 50.

>>127526811
Oh, pack it up, John Williams and everyone with more than half a brain! Anonymous here said he's wrong! Film music actually isn't just background noise for shitty movies! It's actually as good as Bach fugues, late Beethoven string quartets, Scriabin piano sonatas, or Sibelius symphonies! Pack it up, everyone!

>>127527091
He has admittedly been dipping into Spielberg's adrenochrome stash more often these days.

>>127526811
He's 100% correct.

>>127526177 (OP)
He's better than 20th century concert composers that kind of do the same thing. His style sort of started happening in concert settings. Aaron Copland, for example. Even fits with some stuff from the late 19th century.
My opinion anyway.

>>127526177 (OP)
I like John Williams and I like that he doesn't think highly of film scores.

>>127526177 (OP)
True

>>127526342
/thread

>>127526177 (OP)
Only normies would be puzzled by the idea that soundtrack music that prioritizes movies over sounds will never compete with the real stuff. Like seriously, how fucking ignorant and out of touch are people these days lmao

>>127526278
>>127526283
>>127526342

This, he's part of the problem even if he acknowledges it

>>127526751
Are his classical pieces any good?

>>127528491
Would you rather movies have no music at all? Williams' music may not have contributed much to the musical canon but he's added a ton to movies. That's worth something, like cinematography is.

>>127528390
He's one of the only unpretentious people in his business. I enjoy his melodies, even if his form and harmony is as basic as it gets

>>127528543
>Would you rather movies have no music at all?
No. How the fuck did you come to this conclusion? I want ignorant normies to stop overhyping background violins playing pop music tonality like it's the highest art of all. Williams has never been the problem, it's the fans and industry that treat him like a god despite the fact he's fully aware of his limitations.

>>127526177 (OP)
When all you listen to is The Beatles and Final Fantasy soundtracks, Williams' scores will sound like high art by comparison. It's not his fault his fans are all closed-minded retard funk pop collectors and Disney adults.

>>127528564
Nothing you write will ever have a fraction of the impact that the Jurassic Park theme has. Cope and seethe.

>>127528595
I already know that, don't care.

>>127526177 (OP)
wtf i love john williams now

>>127526811
>opinion
>wrong
It's a fact and he's correct. Cope and seethe.

>>127528714
He's right though. Film music ultimately exists to serve the film, and it thus cannot be divorced from it. It has to be enjoyed as part of the movie to get the full effect. John Williams may not go down as a great classical composer but he will go down as maybe the greatest film composer, and that's good enough.

>>127528595
>muh impact
Art isn't a popularity contest, you subhuman mouth-breather. Stick to Radiohead and anime closing credits themes.

>>127528742
I like Scriabin and Beethoven and Mahler and everything, just saying that Williams' art, when considered as a part of the movies, is titanic.

>>127528731
>fallacy
>he's right though

>>127528518
No idea, haven't heard a note of them.

>>127528768
Cool opinion, I still like Williams' more.

>>127528768
>I like Scriabin
Based

>>127528803
There's no way you can listen to Mahler 9 and the Star Wars soundtrack (without the movie) back to back and like Star Wars more lol.

>>127528769
The presence of a fallacy doesn't automatically mean a conclusion or fact is wrong. It just means the argument to demonstrate it is invalid . Learn2Logic kid

All film composers would rather write their own symphonies while being paid by a patron like the heroic composers of old instead of doing what they as trained musicians consider slop muzak for films.

>>127529193
Sadly there is no market. Imagine composers with mass appeal like the days of old pushing the mold while still retaining grandiosity and/or accessible beauty that pulls in the masses. Sadly I think our culture is too degraded for that.

Film scores are better because they get to come up with nothing but the juicy parts and they don't have to pad them with filler to make an 1 and a half piece like Mahler did. They let an idea breathe and live organically without beating it to death and wringing all joy and life out of it like classical composers do

>>127529240
Mahler has no filler.

>>127528790
neither has anyone saying "bruh he's so right!" lmao

>>127528815
I mean I like Williams' opinion on film music more than that other guy, of course Mahler makes more interesting and emotional music.

>>127529305
And what exactly is the connection/logic here? If you haven't heard his music, he somehow isn't correct in his argument? Lol.

>>127528821
Everyone knows what Fallacy Fallacy is, reading comprehension, that's not the point. Williams is right because film music even when enjoyed the "proper" way is never as impactful as a well written concerto or symphony. Look at the retarded post at >>127528731
and all its irrelevant red herrings that barely have anything to do with the original arguments. Nothing but scapegoating and cope.

>>127529305
And what exactly is the connection/logic here? If you haven't heard his music, you somehow can't think he has a point? Lol.

>>127529240
>juicy parts
In theory this makes sense but 99% of film music just sounds soulless and derivative compared to the music its copying or pretending to be. This is why generation ADHD considers them to be "serious composers".

>>127528731
>Film music ultimately exists to serve the film, and it thus cannot be divorced from it
lol lmao. tell that to all the fat neckbeards asking santa to give them home alone vinyls for xmas KEK

>>127529240
>They let an idea breathe and live organically without beating it to death and wringing all joy and life out of it
This line is especially ironic considering this is EXACTLY what film music usually does. It takes a semi-memorable theme and bangs your head with it throughout the movie. The rest is just mindless filler with no substance. Those themes aren't developed, they're just there to "jump out" when needed.
On the other hand, classical music has genuine architecture. Take sonata form: you get contrasting themes in the exposition, which are then developed, transformed, and climaxed toward the end, creating a full narrative; programmatic or purely musical.
This kind of argument is basically the equivalent of saying books should just be summarized in bullet points instead of you actually reading them and experiencing the entire journey. It's a very midwit, 100-IQ take from illiterates. If you can read music and actually understand it, there's no way you could arrive at this opinion. This kind of thinking belongs entirely to people stuck in the middle tiers of consciousness. Midwits cannot understand abstract concepts like musical form, so this kind of architecture is completely alien to you.

>>127529307
But I agree with Williams' opinion on film music? He doesn't seem to be degrading it per se, only saying it's not fit to be played or listened to alone. His scores are fantastic and inspiring while you're watching the movies.

>>127529338
>film music even when enjoyed the "proper" way is never as impactful as a well written concerto or symphony.
that's just, like, your opinion man. i think a profound visual medium when connected with a score will transcend any score on its own.

>>127529399
You don't even have to read music to understand this, you just need a functioning brain.

>>127529402
You don't seem to but ok zoom zoom

>>127529240
>beating it to death and wringing all joy and life out of it
This line is especially ironic considering this is EXACTLY what film music usually does. It takes a semi-memorable theme and bangs your head with it throughout the movie. The rest is just mindless filler with no substance. Those themes aren't developed, they're just there to "jump out" when needed.
On the other hand, classical music has genuine architecture. Take sonata form: you get contrasting themes in the exposition, which are then developed, transformed, and climaxed toward the end, creating a full narrative; programmatic or purely musical. Film music is formless waffle that sounds interesting at first, but on repeated listens and on serious analysis, it's vapid and empty. Classical forms are actual, living organisms. You have actual cells of notes that evolve through time. It's full of life.
This kind of argument is basically the equivalent of saying books should just be summarized in bullet points instead of you actually reading them and experiencing the entire journey. It's a very midwit, 100-IQ take from illiterates. If you can read music and actually understand it, there's no way you could arrive at this opinion. This kind of thinking belongs entirely to people stuck in the middle tiers of consciousness. Midwits cannot understand abstract concepts like musical form, so this kind of architecture is completely alien to you.

>>127529414
wow airtight counterargument, i feel so owned

>>127529416
for >>127529441

>>127529338
>Everyone knows w
Except you clearly

>>127528815
thats just,like, your opinoin, man

>>127529436
Explain?

>>127529414
>i think a profound visual medium when connected with a score will transcend any score on its own.
Admitting you need a visual aid to process the emotional content of the song is not exactly doing you favours here.

>>127529240
>film scores are better because I have no attention span
>film scores are better because I don't understand classical music

>>127529475
he's a braindamaged autist, he will never truly understand the difference between entertainment and art

>>127529452
never said it was about owning? lol. the fact that you treat the argument so personally says more about how sensitive and asshurt classicalfags like yourself are about how your favorite genre has essentially become a niche that people are only exposed to via old looney tunes cartoons.

>>127529414
>i think a profound visual medium when connected with a score will transcend any score on its own.
that's just, like, your opinion man.

>>127529479
I used to not care for the inner movements of Mahler 9 and then I listened to them more and more and now I love them. Actual classical just has so much more depth than film scores.

>>127529502
my god you are fucking dense, no wonder you like film music

>>127526177 (OP)
people here will agree with him to seem smart yet won't listen to any of the great works he is referring to

>>127529479
this lmao, every single time

>>127529502
>a niche that people are only exposed to via old looney tunes cartoons.
Luckily though the profound visual medium when connected with a score helps to transcend etc etc

>>127529516
You're right literally nobody on this board likes Beethoven and Mahler.

If you're at all into classical music in a serious way, there really is no disagreeing with Williams here. I like film soundtracks and videogame soundtracks too, but even a lot of the good ones are mostly just ripping off the canonic composers. One Winged Angel is just Stravinsky's Infernal Dance with a Latin choir.

>>127526342
wtf does that have to do with anything

>>127529516
if you mean disney redditors then yes
i discovered beethoven and brahms and shit like 20 years ago in high school and i thank god for that or i could have ended up like yet another reddit bugman

>mfw reading this thread
Has there ever been a thread about classical music here where classicalanons AREN'T fucking miserable louts that have pants-shitting episodes?

>>127529539
Nothing but he's got the right attitude

>>127529240
>filler
nice bait
half the fucking point of movie scores is to fill dead space with sound when it isn't complementing more dramatic moments

>>127529542
Do redditors actually unironically listen to film music?

>>127529502
Are you by any chance the same anon who bragged about keeping /jazz/ alive and then got sour grapes when we kicked you out? You have the same pretentious, holier-than-thou attitude and the same emotional tactics when you run out of arguments.

>>127529547
Sit down for an hour and a half and listen to Mahler 9. Or Tchaikovsky 4/5/6. Very accessible emotional works with the appeal of film music but also musical depth. Then come back.

>>127529560
Yes. They collect them like toys.

>>127529547
You post anime so you have way more in common with them then you'll ever have the balls to admit

>>127529547
IME, at least when browsing /classical/, most classical "fans" are insufferable rightoids obsessed with living a based "trad" way of life which means eschewing all modern forms of media in exchange for older forms. Basically: virtue signalling culture warriors that like telling others they listen to classical rather than actually listening to it.

I would very much like it if those arguing with Williams' point would give a few examples of film scores that are greater than the sum of their parts in the context of the movies they elevate. I strongly suspect those movies are goofy westerns, goofy sci fi, or pop dramas for women, but maybe you'll really surprise me.

>>127529575
Physical media is Reddit coded.

>>127529594
Especially when it's overpriced and that's used as a cultural marker of distinction

>>127529460
>not an argument
I accept the concession

>>127529588
>NOOO if I can't enjoy classical music that means NOBODY does!
>I HATE white people and I HATE their music!
>IF you're right wing it means you HAVE NO FUN!

>>127526177 (OP)
John Williams undeniably makes nice, pleasant music. I've always liked him. But also undeniably, the type of person who worships him or calls him one of their favorite composers ever is deeply superficial and shallow. Always.

>>127528595
Nothing you write will ever have a fraction of the impact a Beethoven concerto or Schnitkke requiem has. Cope and seethe.

>>127529626
What about someone who calls him their favorite film composer?

>>127529638
>Beethoven
I mean yeah, Ode to Joy is maybe the most successful piece of music ever. What's your point?

>>127529646
Depends, is the question secretly about (YOU)?

>>127529615
>shartyposter
>brown
>and pretends to like classical
Youch, a lethal concoction of cancer. Thankfully you live in the turd world far away from me.

>>127529657
>being this fucking retarded

>>127529662
>nobody likes classical
>if you say you like it you're pretending
>nobody is white
>everybody's brown, mmkay?

>>127529593
Don't count on it kek, they're wrong and they know it, they're coping to feel less bad about the shallow slop they consoom

>>127529667
I agree with Williams' original point anon. Just saying you can't use that to disparage his work because it's objectively great film music.

>>127529659
Considering I barely ever watch movies no. I guess he's my favorite film composer but that's not saying much.

>>127529615
That's not even close to what he said though. He's probably referring to people who put on classics as musical wallpaper while they play video games and browse 4chan and never even grasp what's going on musically. It's a performative gesture. The same people have terabytes of jpgs of western art and thousands of pdfs and epubs of the classics which they will never read.

If John Williams doesn't like film music that much does that mean I'm not allowed to now?

>>127529584
>/classical/ general is anime
>mfw realize that animefags and classicalfags are one in the same type of miserable loser shut-in wastes of space that have the worst opinions on everything and couldn't hold a normal conversation even with a gun held to their head

>>127529745
anime OP*

>>127529685
I can do whatever I want and have whatever opinion I want, dipshit faggot. Cope and mald

>>127529745
you must be new here if you're just figuring this out

>>127529719
I got into classical music because of a white nationalist youtuber talking about "the great western culture" or whatever, but I genuinely love it. The constant posturing about high art in the dissident right actually serves to elevate people's tastes but I'll bet it pisses you off if middle class chuds like classical music.

>>127529761
Tilting at windmills

>>127529715
>he's my favorite film composer
>no

>>127529794
Why would it piss me off what people are listening to in their mom's basement or anywhere else?

>>127529676
There are fine composers out there with chops, Jarre and Morricone being easy examples, but I don't think either of them would claim to have earned a place in the canon of orchestral music. Film scores can have great music in them, that's not up for debate. As I understood it, this discussion had to do with the comparison of film scores to classical compositions, which is natural because they share lots of things in common. I think what Williams said is unambiguously true. If you are for some reason really into that Greenwood Phantom Thread score, that's just fine, but can you honestly say it belongs in a conversation alongside its influences, like Debussy? Film scores are a practical necessity. David Lean's Brief Encounter uses Rachmaninoff's second piano concerto, but it's actually quite awkward in the way that it's used in retrospect (with some moments having good effect). The movie doesn't elevate the composition at all. On the other hand, you could make an argument that Kubrick's use of Strauss partially did in some sense, if not elevate, then nuance Zarathustra. It isn't so cut and dry that you can say film scores are bullshit or that classical can just stand in where the former always fails in comparison. But I think it's also unambiguously true that what Williams says is right. Scores are limited by being tools.

>>127529811
Malding at faggots

>>127529745
Honestly 'normal' conversations are way overrated
My friends and I have always had insane conversations

>>127529725
Not allowed to what? Listen to it or enjoy it?

>>127529831
Yeah, using existing music tends to dominate the scene rather do what film scores are designed to do which is support the scene. Kubrick is an exception maybe because those spaceship ballet scenes are more like music videos or something.

>>127528811
debased

Also all classical composers would be making Film/anime/video game soundtracks were they alive today

>>127530065
It would be hilarious if we could clone Bach, Strauss, Mozart and the rest of those guys Jurassic Park style and they all became rappers.

>>127530065
>>127530099
Reddit

>>127530065
A horrifying dystopia, indeed

>>127529848
Anon you just called yourself a faggot

>>127530121
I was here before you were and I know it because I remember a time when enraged faggots had something more entertaining to respond with than just "reddit".

>>127529824
Chuds in their mothers' basements have better taste than U.S. presidents and it makes you seethe. No, Kendrick Lamar is not better art than Ode to Joy.

>>127530141
Wrong again, reading comprehension faggot

>>127530145
I've heard those exact takes from literal 13 year olds on Reddit. No, Bach and Mozart and Beethoven would not be rappers or video game composers, and if they were we would be losing out on a great deal of talent. There are still intelligent creative white people around but none of them are making great art like the aforementioned composers. Why?

>>127530160
I don't care about the US president or Kendrick Lamar either... try again.

>>127530154
/thread

>>127530169
So you admit you spend time on reddit. I don't.

>>127530181
Please learn to reply properly, zoom-zoom KHHV newfaggot, your mistakes are as insufferable as your opinions.

>>127529554
kek

>>127530169
>There are still intelligent creative white people around
Just not on 4chan.

>>127530205
I've first started posting in 2006, this is exactly how we used to reply.

>>127530121
And Redditors. Bach would be 'dropping' his latest Cantata on the frontpage of Reddit

>>127530169
>There are still intelligent creative white people around but none of them are making great art like the aforementioned composers. Why?
Whites are too busy trying to be the new permanent victims. Whining about replacement is more fulfilling and lucrative than studying counterpoint.

>>127530219
you meant to respond to >>127530154 and we all know it, retard

How many of the last 20 or so posts are samefaggotry and how much is legitimate juvenile rage? I can't tell.

>>127530238
yes

>>127530237
Nope. I think the blind rage is confusing you.

>>127530169
>No, Bach and Mozart and Beethoven would not be rappers or video game composers
Why not? What would they be. There's no Austrian princes paying for them to male silly, trite little keyboard pieces to dance to anymore and no one gives two fucks about church music-we've already got all the hymns we need

>>127530065
You're supposed to post an anime pic when typing comments like this

>>127530254
But if all those guys were born now instead of then, we wouldn't have all that old music because they wouldn't have been there to write it.

>>127530249
brain damaged retard

>>127530219
No it isn't you lying sack of shit. Fuck off and die

>>127530268
No one wants to hear that stuff anymore. We'd still have all the other composers.

The anon who sent you all into this spiral of teen angst in the first place wasn't slagging of classical music or its listeners, just the ones on this board nestled away in their lolicon love dens with the blinds closed and the aroma of pizza pocket farts permeating every surface.

>>127530279
>>127530272
lol calm down already.

>>127526177 (OP)
>film music pales in comparison to history’s great works.
This is better than almost every classical piece
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cg19uV8nB0

>>127530325
Anime website kid

>>127529831
>Kubrick's use of Strauss partially did in some sense, if not elevate, then nuance Zarathustra
>>127529908
>Kubrick is an exception
Kubrick was one of the few visual artists who approached their works with the depth of a classical music composer. That's why the 2001 score and the images work so well together.

Most movies are the visual equivalent of a generic pop music album, and the soundtracks simply match.

>>127530600
see >>127529441
That post completely obliterates any film/videogame faggot cope.

>>127530065
Source: trust me bro.
On a more serious note, classical music is still being made, it's just garbage.

his "best" works are straight up copied from classical pieces.

>>127528564
Explain how the Star Wars title theme is "pop music tonality".

>>127529547
Who here is miserable and why? Explain what you mean and who you're talking about, otherwise your post is vague nonsense and you just sound butthurt.
>>127529588
This just sounds like a lot of assumptions and projecting. Most people aren't the caricatures you have in your head.

>>127530922
He would probably agree with you.

>>127526177 (OP)
It's chilling to see the man who composed the soundtrack to Schindler's List throw a Nazi salute.

>>127526177 (OP)
>>127526283
>>127526342
>>127526555
Wonder why something so self-evident and obvious, that even film composers themselves understand and admit, makes people seethe. What Williams said is simply the truth. You can still listen to and enjoy film music, but pretending it isn't a lesser form of a much better thing that already existed before is deluded. This has nothing to do with some forced old vs. new argument. The truth is, linear progress doesn't really exist, and some artforms (or "media" if you want to call it that) have simply already peaked a while ago.

>>127530325
brain damaged autist retard

>>127530600
Watered down Arvo Part. Yawn.

>>127531016
/thread

>>127530980
>photographs can be just as informative and honest as footage
Go apply for a job at MSNBC. You'd fit right in

>>127531147
>You'd fit right in
No, I'm a Gentile.

>>127531209
As if that's an argument in 2025 lmao

I never cared much for most film music either. Prefer vidya.

>>127529240
imagine only listening to music for the "juicy parts"
this is the equivalent to watching a movie through tik tok reels

>>127526956
This is exactly what Black Sabbath did in 1970.