What the fuck is wrong with these mongoloid slackers? They completely underschedule longhaul trains everywhere outside the NEC so almost no one can use them for shorter trips and then wonder why ridership is in the shitter. Each route should be minimum 3x a day per direction.

NEC here, I don't know that feel

>>1992027
I see both sides of it in Seattle. The Sounder regional trains are great up to Vancouver and down to Eugene. Then there's the Empire Bungler.
>want to go to Spokane
>check train schedules
>one (1) train each way per day
>depart 4:55pm
>arrive 12:37am
>after all the hotel checkin desks are closed
>fuck you unless you've got family nearby
It's not like there's no demand, they run BUSES from Seattle to Spokane and back, but they can't manage more trains per day because ______?

>>1992029
>but they can't manage more trains per day because ______?
they don't have the money
the answer to pretty much every question about amtrak is "they are chronically underfunded"

>>1992023 (OP)
Yesterday I called amtrak customer service to change my ticket because the website kept crashing. The hold music was RnB and a sassy black lady picked up. Truly an american institution.

>>1992160
The Civil Rights Act / EEOC creates an effect I call the Shaneequa Event Horizon, where because sassy black women are impossible to "out diversity" (because they vote 96% for Democrats) any federal agency will eventually fill up with them until the agency fails at its core responsibilities and they get outsourced. If this happened to Amtrak and passenger rail got deregulated we'd see a 10x in available trains.

>>1992161
If passenger rail got deregulated it would become a shitshow like every other deregulated industry that immediately cuts corners for profit see also Boeing and their ```airplanes'''.

>>1992023 (OP)
is commuting via the hiawatha service at all reasonable or worth it? I want to avoid living in Chicago and Milwaukee seems comfy

>>1992161
I don't think there's another board where people are this committed to blaming anything and everything on minorities. Pinch flat? The jews did this. Train delay? Pajeets. Plane crash? It was trannies. Shipwreck? The blacks. Crosstheaded the pedals on your dumpster dive OTS? The blacks again.

Granted I only go on /g/, /ck/, /lgbt/, and /n/. Maybe that's not a full cross section.

>>1993792
That's not what deregulations mean.

>>1993794
Spending 3 hours a day commuting would probably suck, but it’s doable, the schedules line up with commute times; you get into Chicago at 7:24 AM and leave at either 5 or 8 PM. It would drain your wallet a bit tho, it’s about $50 a day, so a hybrid position where you only go in a couple days or once a week would be ideal.

>>1993794
That's still a 90 minute to hour long commute from Milwaukee to Chicago, assuming the train hits exactly when you need it to.

>>1992023 (OP)
>>1992029
>>1992151
there is zero demand. amtrak doesn't make money because no one wants to take 6 times as long to get somewhere as it would take to drive

>>1993927
every time frequency on an amtrak service is improved ridership goes up
>>1993796
/n/ is normally level-headed but there's been an influx of /pol/faggots lately
ultra-election tourist ones, too

>>1993946
enough to offset the costs? amtrak is perpetually in debt

>>1993903
$50 a day sounds brutal, does Amtrak not offer a commuter pass?

>>1993912
yeah but I don't mind 90 minutes on a train, the real issue is reliability. I'd hate to get stuck in Chicago without a car.

>>1994042
What a cute femboy, giwtwm

>>1994024
why does everyone expect amtrak to run a profit when they don't own the property around their stations? Do we expect tolls to be profitable too?

HK's MTR and Japan's JR are both only profitable because they own the valuable real estate around the stations. if Amtrak could leverage the same they'd be making billions

>>1994046
because what is the point of a train that takes 12 times longer to get somewhere than driving does if it is also going to be a money sink on the tax payers?

>>1994046
>JR
Built by the government then privatized

>if Amtrak could leverage the same
Doubt they're legally permitted to and even if they could, the chance to buy cheap land remotely close to city centers disappeared decades ago

How is Amtrak going to get the line reservations when they're competing with coal and bulk commodities for rail time?

>>1992023 (OP)
Long-haul routes are kind of a special thing, like preserving a traditional way of travel without too much practical use.
But they could just run a bunch of regional lines between major cities more frequently, maybe buy some smaller DMUs for that. I'm talking journeys that are maybe up to 4-5 hours, start with two or three trains a day. That wouldn't be very expensive and it might get people to use trains more regularly. They could also work as feeders for the longer lines.

>>1992023 (OP)
Americans like their cars.

>>1995958
Americans like trains, too.

>>1995958

Americans turned to cars because trains went to shit

Fucking Amtrak gave my bike away to someone else from the luggage car. If I was able to lock it myself, or stay with it in the disabled wheelchair area, I'd still have it. But, nope, it's against their policies. But at least the train was on time. Fucktards.

>>1999706
I think you have the causality reversed there.

>>1993946

good

>>1993927
the train from vancouver (canada) to seattle is only twice as long as driving. new york to DC is one hour longer. if these trains had proper speed of something even close to the slowest HSR in europe then the time would be about the same, far less if they were actually HSR. the demand isn't there because the infrastructure is shit, it shows that ridership is so good on brightline FL because it goes at a reasonable speed and provides a good service.

>>1992027
It's nice living near the only function stretch of American rail infrastructure and mostly only needing to take trips near it.

>>1992023 (OP)

they're underscheduled because congress won't pay for them, live in a communist state like I do and you get more than 1 train per hour

Illinois > Kentucky and it's not even close

>>1994046
The real estate around stations is completely worthless if you don't have an extensive suburban and/or regional train service and if people will drive to your station and expect huge parking lots. In this case you won't have people passing through and going to the shops in your stations because a) very few people use the station and b) it just has a huge parking lot around it making the area not walkable.

tl;dr making money from real estate only works if your urbanism favors train use in the first place.

>>2002976
if you replace the parking lots with mixed use development then the people will be there because that's where they live.

Amtrak can't buy line time because bulk freight owns the lines, and amtrak rents time. Not unexpectedly bulkfreight gives themselves the best windows, and amtrak buys poor quality line time around bulkfreight.

>>1999720
If trains were better than cars then why would people ever switch?

>>2003963
because they gradually became worse. people still rode trains a lot until the 50s when cars had been around for a while. and by the time america had nearly entirely abandoned them in the 60s, japan already had trains going 220km/h

>>2002982
Wrong. You need to have mixed use all around the station area, and then dense commercial use at the station itself. That's how Japan does it.
So unless you're about to rebuild all the hollowed-out american cities it's just not going to work out, sorry.

>>2003972
I literally said replace the parking lots with mixed use, which is apartments and retail, maybe even a mall nearby which has been done in many places and is a successful way to get people to take transit there.

>>1999706

this

its not amtrak's fault its the government that owns them

>>1992023 (OP)
>Each route should be minimum 3x a day per direction.

I've always wanted this with the Coast Starlight. Two trains daily, one departs in the morning and the other at night. Would solve a lot of the issues with a twelve hour ride between Los Angeles and San Francisco if you could just sleep on the train.

>>1992027
NEC is still wildly underserviced compared to here

I looked up providence (urban area ~1.3million)
>2-3 trains per hour total

Nearest city to me of comparable size (urban ~1million) has around 40 trains per hour

Even my hometown of 10k people has 8 per hour, and they are still pretty busy all day

Like I get that the USA has issues with regular public transport, but I didnt think the north east was that bad

>>1993927
yeah, it only becomes a good option when it is decently fast so it is as fast as or faster than driving, and also when the destination and origin both have decent intra city transit.

No point in getting a super fast train to somewhere like spokane where you probably need a car to get where you are going anyway, so it is easier just to bring your car

>>1994046
>why does everyone expect amtrak to run a profit

Should've been built on Conrail's model.

>>1994042
Such is life for supercommuters. Same thing in Seattle with Sounder vs. Amtrak.

>>1993927
the travel time on the Empire builder from Spokane to Tri-cities and Tri-cities to Portland is actually reasonable compared to driving, and there aren't a lot of flights available at the Tri-cities airport. The problem is the departure/arrival times are really awkward, especially to and from Spokane

>>2015707
The empire builder actually ended up saving a few dozen people this summer from a busted air travel system. The crowdstrike and Azure double crash happened as people were trying to fly home from the RNC in Milwaukee to Washington and Oregon, so people whose flights got canceled bought train tickets instead of hotel rooms.

>>2003971
IIRC it was the one-two punch of airlines eating the railroads' lunch on prestige long-distance routes, and the freight trains on the lines running trains so long they couldnt fit onto sidings and grant passenger trains the right of way, making routes extremely slow or fraught with delays. Not to mention serial disinvestment, such that potentially high speed railsets were running with/on tracks, signals, and overhead lines dating back to the turn of the century, which didnt help either.

>>2015727
Air travel and highways improved so quickly that mid 20th century stopover points were completely bypassed by the 2000s. Railroads that needed capex and possibly new land rights for each foot of improved track couldn't compete. Now we've hit the point where building more highway lanes doesn't improve urban congestion and airports are reaching runway capacity so modernized rail has a shot.

>>2015732
>and airports are reaching runway capacity
Too bad we just don't have the tech to build new runways and terminals

>>2015734
In many cases we don't have the space. Spreading flights between airports in a region means they need connecting trains.

>>2015739
>In many cases we don't have the space.
No way, eminent domain is real and has been used to expand airports many times

>Spreading flights between airports in a region means they need connecting trains.
It's always going to be less expensive and faster to simply expand airport capacity than build rail lines for hypothetical uses

>>2015732
I dont think it was a question of cost as much as one of political will; those highways werent cheap, nor were they built without the big 'eminent domain/gubment expropriation' stick.

>>1994046
>why does everyone expect amtrak to run a profit
The federal government is almost 40 trillion dollars in debt. Short of letting the welfare state collapse there's only a narrow path back to solvency. It might be faster to revive private passenger rail than to keep kicking the Amtrak whale down the beach.

>>1993800
less regulator influence and company/private base self-"regulation" is what is commonly understood when speaking of "deregulation"
inb4
>real capitalism has never been tried
miss me with that gay shit
the "free market" is merely a concept, not a sound policy
things need to be regulated, not least to ensure the very idea of the so-called "free market" can continue existing across time read adam smith or soemthing lmao

>>2017919
>there's only a narrow path back to solvency
print money, tax on loans?

>>2018144
Printing money causes more debt because it's all loans from the Federal Reserve. The only escape hatch would be something like minting a stack of trillion dollar coins, depositing them at the treasury, and immediately melting them down, but this would be a giant stick in the eye of anyone trying to use the dollar as a store of value in a world of US manufacturing decline, so shouldn't be done until our productive economy starts growing again.

Amtrak stations are pretty sorry places, but they're at the point where they're interesting sorry places. Orlando Station had clear water damage, but it had some really nice looking wood bench seating and the remnants of payphone booths. The buildings are old, maybe falling apart, but they're clean and loved.

>The real estate around stations is completely worthless if you don't have an extensive suburban and/or regional train service
That's irrelevant. Stations along the sunbelt have prime downtown locations in growing cities that would get hefty checks from developers.

>>2018242
>Amtrak stations are pretty sorry places,
depends entirely on the station

New York Penn
Washington Union
Chicago Union
etc

>>2018259
There are a couple of real stinkers but anything that's a rural platform, street running, or an old building is generally good. NYC Penn Station was a piss stained underground airport terminal last time I was there, for both Amtrak and LIRR.

>>2003971
>until the 1950s
People riding trains, both total count and per capita started dropping off as early as 1920. It spiked for WWII but continued to drop.

>>2018299
NY penn is brand new

>>2018347
nta but 90% of the complex is still a cesspool, they just bolted on a nice part for photo ops

>>2017919
government debt is a meme, most if it is owned to itself, and the rest of the countries can't call on it, unless they want to loose access to USD

>>2017933
The airline deregulations meant the airline companies could control operations like fares, routes, and market entries, not the government. It has nothing to do with Boeing's self-destruction.

>>2018242
>that would get hefty checks from developers.
That's what matters most

I recently took acela express to DC and a regular ass amtrak back to NY. the trains reached the same top speed, the differences were entirely due to the number of stops

>>2020649
Acela SHOULD be ~10-20mph faster as well. But even with that, depending on the time of day acela can actually take longer than the north east regional. And it's not due (solely) to station stops.

Assuming you take the 8:00AM Acela from NYC to DC you get to DC at 11:01AM with 6 stops (Newark, Metropark, Philly, Wilmington, Baltimore Penn, and BWI)
Assuming you take the 7:25AM North east Regional from NYC to DC you get to DC at 10:46AM with only 5 stops (Newark, Trenton, Philly, Wilmington, Blatimore Penn)

So you save ~15 minutes on acela but stop at one extra station.

In the opposite direction you can take the 7AM NRE from DC to NYC and get there at 9:52AM with 5 stops (BWI, Baltimore Penn, Wilmington, Philly, Newark) But acela is even worse in that direction in the morning, 7AM departure gets you to NYC at 10:02AM with 5 stops (BWI, Baltimore Penn, Wilmington, Philly, Newark)

So even with both trains only hitting 5 stops on the way, NRE is still ~10 minutes faster for the 7am trips from DC.

>>1993792
Using Beoing as an example of deregulation lmao

>>1992023 (OP)
BSNF/Union Pacific and all these other shareholder Dodge Brothers companies that hold the railroads hostage should be nuked with their assets bought out. AmTrak and everything else should then be reorganized into the state owned American Federal Railways under one umbrella with local governments having a say. Ditch retarded rolling stock and adopt railbuses, EMUs, and locomotives for correspondingly demanding lines. Electrify the mainlines. Fix the retarded scheduling and increase frequency.

>>1993796
>minorities
>actually being minorities
Wew lad.

>>1993796
/g/ has been aware of the Jews (Intel), Chinese, and Indians for like fifteen years. If you don't know this you're part of one of the problem groups.

>>2022245
Sad!

>>1992023 (OP)
The federal highways receive more funding in one year than Amtrak has received since it was created in the 70s. It is not really Amtrak's fault. If you go to a state where the state funds Amtrak too, you can have 3x a day each way or more. For example, Pontiac, IL.

>>2024111
>The federal highways receive more funding in one year than Amtrak has received since it was created in the 70s
Makes sense because highways transport far more people than Amtrak does

>>2024116
I really wonder what kind of education you sort of people got to think this makes sense.

Highways cost a FUCK ton to build in the first place, Amtrak never had that massive upfront cost for the government. So highways cost more in the first place, cost more to maintain, and amtrak has NEVER received anywhere close to the same level of funding, even once in it's entire life, and you're really gonna try and act like amtrak is at fault for not competing with highways? Kill yourself or educate yourself, whichever you can accomplish first.

>>2024140
>Highways cost a FUCK ton to build in the first place
They also transport a FUCK ton more people than Amtrak and they move the most freight of any transport mode in the US, something that Amtrak cannot do

>>2024140
I don't need no education because i have a brian. I can think for myself.

>>2010757
>Nearest city to me of comparable size (urban ~1million) has around 40 trains per hour
Amtrak is intercity only. Commuter rail during peak hours approaches that frequency.

>ride new San Joaquin cars
>coaches are nice
>but the cafe car has been completely scrapped and replaced with a bunch of fucking metal boxes full of sodas and chips

This is an eight-hour journey btw

>>2028386
sadly an 8-hour trip is a short haul route.

>>2018259
they have a soup kitchen next to union station in dc so all the insane homeless people stay there and harass or assault people on the way in from columbus circle

beautiful on the inside though.

>>2018347
anon's talking about the underground portion with all the street venders and bums pissing in the stairways, not moynihan

>>1992029
>The Sounder regional trains are great up to Vancouver and down to Eugene.
Where is this ghost Sounder line that stretches from BC to Oregon?

>>2028861
they were just following the Elon Levy model. trains are more efficient if you delete the passengers

>>2028386
That's not amtrak's fault, that's due to the arcane way that California governs their state supported routes leading the San Joaquin rail authority to be stuffed full of the cheapest motherfuckers and thinking cutting the cafe attendant would be an easy savings. They totally didn't expect the blowback (somehow) and are now scrambling to attach a cafe car order to the next batch of Venture cars being built.

>>1992027

feel bad

>>2028861
How did that happen? Why didn't people go down to the platform?

>>2034592
The doors are closed when not actively boarding or arriving.

During the busier times of day they might be left open/unlocked, but at night it doesn't shock me they might've just been left locked by accident.

>>2002428
planes take no infrastructure though and thats what they are competing against

>>1992023 (OP)
>nationalize something
>it goes to shit

Every time

>>2037106
It was nationalized because it wasn't profitable to run privately but we still wanted passenger rail service.
And now everyone is SHOCKED the non-profitable previously private industry is STILL not profitable when run by the government.

People are retarded.

>>1993927
Amtrak simply does not go from where I am, to where I want to visit.
A town near where I live is surrounded by rail-yards, has a facility for rebuilding diesel locomotives, and is a junction for two major and one regional railroad, but if I want to ride Amtrak, I have to drive ~60 some miles to be greeted by the following services at said "station"
>Unstaffed station
>ATM not available
>No elevator
>No payphones
>No Amtrak ticketing kiosks
>No restrooms
>No vending machines
>No WiFi
Oh yeah. That sounds just thrilling.
Here's a pic of the station, just for laughs.

>>2037108
>It was nationalized because it wasn't profitable to run privately but we still wanted passenger rail service.

Then SUBSIDIZE it, we already do it with airlines, the highway system, and previously transatlantic passenger shipping. But for God's sake, don't take it out of private hands and create a Frankenstein railway with no tracks that nobody fucking wants.

>>2037108
>And now everyone is SHOCKED the non-profitable previously private industry is STILL not profitable when run by the government.
People wouldn't mind a money-losing service that provided convenience, reasonable amenities & pricing, and a reliable service. People would put up with the losses if that was the case, but Amtrak offers the complete opposite for most people.

>>2039613
>Then SUBSIDIZE it
That would have been the ideal course of action back in the 70s. But the institutional knowledge and facilities to handle passenger traffic that railroads once had is long gone, subsidizing it now wouldn't work imo - and the price you'd have to pay for the Class 1's to do it would be politically unrealistic.

>>2039613
why is subsiding it any different?

>>2039614
>That would have been the ideal course of action back in the 70s.

That's what I mean, obviously it's way too late for that now.

>>2039634

As >>2039614 pointed out, it would have kept all the institutional knowledge and infrastructure that private railroads already had to maintain/improve passenger service "in-house", whereas almost all of that was lost with the creation of Amtrak, permanently crippling passenger rail service in a country where it had once been one of the best on the planet. Now, they can't even build a single fucking high speed line between San Francisco and Los Angeles.

btw, the existing Amtrak service, the Coast Starlight,

A. Doesn't actually run between LA and SF (requiring a transfer at Oakland by bus)

B. Takes several hours LONGER today than its original progenitor (Southern Pacific's Coast Daylight, pic related) did using steam locomotives in the 1930s.

>>2040584
why would private railroads *want* to do more than the bare minimum to keep subsidised services going, though?

>No other US/North American train threads
We were so close in Minnesota to getting a second line on our regional railroad. Biden green lit our funding, the state green lit our funding, we were set to start digging. Then DOGE came, the state couldn't justify it without an 80% match, and now it got cancelled. The other line, the Northstar, ends about 25 miles short of where it should.
https://www.fox9.com/news/mn-lawmakers-pull-funding-northern-lights-express-train-duluth

>>2040584
>B. Takes several hours LONGER today than its original progenitor (Southern Pacific's Coast Daylight, pic related) did using steam locomotives in the 1930s.
Hot take, steam engines peaked in the 1920s. That was the point where the world had completely, totally figured out everything necessary to make steam power effective. Once the PV=nRT model had been fully explored, nothing was left for steam power. Every ounce of understanding has been understood. This is still true today, if you look at any coal, oil, gas or nuclear plant, boiling water is no longer a problem with major inefficiencies.

>>2041042
>The state is broke and couldn't afford it.
That's your real problem, chief.

>>1992029
Sounder is shit. Every time I've had to go up to Everett I've always ended up taking the 1 as far north as possible and bus from there.
>ooh wow 3 trains a day
some of us have jobs, we're not just hobos riding trains for fun. I have no idea why the Seattle area is supposedly held up as great public transit. Once you get outside the downtown-redmond-bellevue-UW area the schedules are garbage. And the only way to get to Olympia is a hodge-podge of bus or you can gamble your luck on a train running at the exact time you need it, which it won't. Why does the 1 line not extend to Olympia? Why? What fucking reason they only built 1/3 of a reasonable fucking rail line? So the biggest city does not even connect to the capitol except with a train that only runs 3 times a day. Then they wonder why everyone drives. And when they do build anything they build something completely fucking useless like the monorail or whatever the fuck tacoma is doing or the slut. Then people get the idea trains are useless impractical gimmicks for tourists because that's the only kind of rail they build.

No one uses amtrak because it's slow and infrequent. So we don't get upgrades like passenger rail priority (rather than freight trains getting the go first while the passengers sit and wait 45 min for it to pass) or high speed rail (which would actually make it appealing to use) or better frequency (which would make it practical to use, especially for commute reasons). Instead we get NOTHING and amtrak wonders why no one is interested.

9/10 of the population lives in one small area from Olympia to Everett and they can't manage to provide reasonable train service? The 1 line is always packed. Obviously people want fucking train service. And yet. Here we are. In another 50 years maybe it will go to Ballard and West Seattle! Isnt' that fucking exciting?1!

>>1993927
>people would rather line up to be molested by the TSA and wait 2 hours to board than step onto a fast reliable train and step off at their destination
>the same people spend $5000 to travel to Japan to ride the shinkansen
The US is a lost cause.

>>1994046
No, I agree with this. No one expects the highway system to turn a profit. It costs taxpayers hundreds of billions of dollars to maintain the road system in the US which only services cars, and yet no one talks about the roads in term of profitability. Yet they hold public transit to a different standard, which sets it up to fail and thus perpetuates the car monopoly. Because if they were held to equal standards cars would never manage to show profit as they are like carpet bombs on your urban area, whereas trains are compact, don't waste ten trillion acres of space on aspault oceans and stinking noisy car sewers. Trains naturally support business. Train station? Perfect place to have restaurants, convenience stores, and even entire shopping malls like Japan does. Do you know what is next to highways in the US? Nothing, because no one wants to exist near a godforsaken fucking highway. Any houses that were unfortunate enough to be nearby when they built the highway will see the property value plummet so hard they get abandoned.

Cars cost us more than the budget of 3/4 of the rest of the world's nations combined, destroy land value, waste hours of our days, waste hundreds of dollars a month for the average consumer that could otherwise be spent on something that generates value, and are a maintenance nightmare, a financial black hole, sucking up budget and returning only potholes and crashes. Trains are the embodiment of value. Wherever trains go, prosperity follows. Land near stations skyrockets in value. When we get what small crumbs of modern rail we're given, the stations bloom in 5+1s and luxury townhouses.

AND YET what do they keep building and what do they keep defunding? Oh. Oh, the government keeps making the stupidest choices possible and then complains the budget is busted and they're broke. Oh, really?

>>2024148
A road can never transport as many people per hour as a functional well-funded trainline. Look at the shinkansen. If all those people were in cars instead of on the train it would gridlock the entire country. You're a fucktard.

>>2043518
>>2043519
How's college?

>>2043516
>the same people
The NIMBY cultists don't travel outside their county, anon.
>>2042947
Don't I know it. At least our governor and legislators are proactively balancing our budget, though. They're addressing deficit spending while the state still has a cash reserve to utilize while maintaining services that actually have a return on investment.
>>2043518
As a government agency I don't think Amtrak should necessarily own all their surrounding real estate. If they did, then they'd need to get congressional approval for any sort of construction. That would stymy actual development efforts surrounding the station.

>>2043519
>A road can never transport as many people per hour as a functional well-funded trainline.
Funding doesn't have anything to do with how many people a train CAN carry. All the stats about how trains can carry more people are based on the assumption that trains are 100% full which they aren't most of the time (except in highly populated dense areas).

>>2043607
The only people pushing to build trains in shithole states like florida and texas are doing it as a psyop to destroy trains everywhere

We could be spending the money to improve trains where they are already getting used but that's like socialism or something and definitely deserves a coordinated backlash by the rational centrists who understand that both sides are bad (so let's do a thing that consistently helps one of those sides but you can't accuse me of taking sides here because I'm apolitical)

>>2034594
>planes take no infrastructure
are you fucking retarded? they need AIRPORTS, which are fucking massive, and their landing paths need to be cleared of large buildings for a large distance around the airport. they also aren't that cheap in the US and canada especially even for intercity travel and because of the US police state you have to go into security even for intercity flight on both directions of your trip. and airports are very rarely built in the middle of cities but train stations easily can be, yes its expensive to build new rail lines but you end up with a vastly more efficient and comfortable form of travel that many people would take if it were built properly and no one except CEOs would be flying 100 miles between major cities.
>>2043528
so college teaches you basic facts that anyone with a brain should know? I guess you skipped it for a reason

>>2045864
>are you fucking retarded?
>so college teaches you basic facts that anyone with a brain should know? I guess you skipped it for a reason
Ad hom. You lose.

>>2045872
the
>le anyone who goes against what I believe is a liberal from college
is also an ad hom attack. how about making an actual argument next time retard

>>2045878
>is also an ad hom attack
It was not an attack, it was a question.
>retard
Proof you have no intention of making a good faith argument.

>>2043599
>reeee nimby nimby nimby
I, unlike YIMBY cultists, actually think democracy is a better system than oligarchy or corpo-fascism, and yet I've traveled more than you, shocker I know

>>2048788
>democratic when it comes to passenger train expansions
>autocratic when it comes to auto highway expansion
As usual

>>2048806
Oh yeah? Well what's up with your group adopting kittens and puppies from the pound just so you can throw them into hot lava? I have this confirmed by reliable sources so don't even try to deny it, you monster.

>>2043599
>The NIMBY cultists don't travel outside their county, anon.
Oops, you're wrong.
>>2048806
>autocratic when it comes to auto highway expansion
Oops, you're wrong again.
Friendly reminder that if you keep trying to destroy people's lives, they'll eventually kill you (Americans tend to not respond well to unprovoked attacks by government).