If steel is so great, why do the companies that make the best steel tubing in the world use carbon for their forks?

If steel is so great, why do the finest steel bikes in the world use carbon forks?

It seems to me that steel has an aesthetic value that cannot be substituted by anything else, but as a material for building bikes, its value decreases the more that is demanded of a component.

Material focusing is a cope. It's more about the intended use case and layup(if we are talking carbon), or butting profiles and sizing+brazing/welding if we are talking steel. Aluminum being neat that it's somewhere in the middle since you can hydroform and still have light stiff fuckhueg tubes.
Carbon is fine. Steel is fine, and aluminum is fine.

>>2032101
Ok but I think we can all agree that titanium is for spergy incel mass shooter types, right?

>>2032102
ah, you will fit right in.

Before carbon it was still fairly common for even high spec steel frames to come with mass produced off the shelf forks for cost reasons. As a small builder, making a fork is pretty expensive so many just didn't / don't. A custom steel fork is more expensive than an off the shelf carbon one.

Many see the fork as just a component, a replaceable component. So the benefits of durability apply less to it because it can easily be replaced if it's damaged.

It's also not true that the best steel frames always have carbon forks, only ones that are aiming for top tier performance in the fredmarket, because the weight savings are significant and weight is what sells expensive bikes. Ritchey frames come with carbon forks for example, but they also sell steel forks and most custom shops will build you a fork (and think it's a good idea) if you shell out the cash for it.

There's also the dynamic with those heritage Italian companies (columbus, campy, alfa romeo etc) that they're founded on racing pedigree so they can't ignore modern technology, they have to find that balance of staying up to date, having a foot in the racing world, and also keeping the classic style and history alive for people who care about it.

It also doesn't really make sense to say that steel is a bad material for frames because steel is a bad material for forks (even if that was true). It IS true for titanium, and you'll basically never see titanium forks except meme chinese ones. That doesn't mean that Ti sucks, different materials make sense for different things. Aluminium is a bad material for forks too but that doesn't mean aluminium frames are bad.

I've owned a full carbon road bike, and they're magic. But steel is also magic and i didn't mind going back to it.

Those forks are made in China btw

>>2032098 (OP)
Because carbon is cheaper and these companies are nickeling and diming

>>2032201
Steel costs 40 cents a pound, carbon costs $15 a pound

>>2032217
ok you clearly retarded don't @ me ever again

>>2032217
Pretty dumb and irrelevant post since it doesn't account for manufacture and fabrication which is cheaper when it's just a chink putting fabric in mold

>>2032217
Why did my carbon sled cost 7k dollars then instead of 60 bucks?

>>2032217
Wtf my frame only cost $2.00

>>2032101
wise words

>>2032104
This is extremely well said.

are 2025 carbon forks better than, say, 2005 carbon forks?

Like say I found an old bike with a reynolds ouzo fork. Would I be best off replacing it with a modern enve or columbus fork?

As I understand it, steel hasn't changed at all in the last 20 years, but carbon has, yes?

>>2032098 (OP)

Do they?

>>2034085
Improved optimization would point towards a modern fork being better. Now the question is does the bike fit it? since we went from 1in threaded, 1in threadless, to 1 1/8 threadless.
I would only buy a new fork if your current one is suspect in any way.

>>2034088
I wonder though... if you look at the bikes where you would actually feel the fork material, where the fork material would matter, what could lituchi-san be using. aruminiumu? hagane? chotto matte... kore no...

CABONO desu yo?

curious! I am very intelligent!

>>2032098 (OP)
>why do companies that make the best steel tubing in the world use carbon for their forks
This is inherently incorrect, major steel tubing manufacturers like Reynolds, Columbus, and Tange do not create their own bicycles, they simply sell the steel tubing to bicycle welders who make the bikes you see. The finest steel bikes don't use carbon forks, the lightest steel bikes do. Picrel is an example of the finest steel bike, a Hetchins Magnum Opus.

If the value of steel as a building material for bikes decreases the more that is demanded of a component, then why are all BMX bikes all using crmo steel forks? Steel is the ideal building material for durability, not for weight. There are always new steel alloys being made, and even new manufacturing processes, and most of them have never been used as bicycle tubing yet.

>>2034103
>if you look at the bikes where you would actually feel the fork material
Like bikes you take off of glass smooth asphalt?

hi guys. I'm new to the world of bicycle.
the way I see it. rigid forks are just thick rods of dense metal (or material of your choosing). there shouldn't be much of a difference from a typical one to a very expensive one, yes? like I can't magically expect it to make my ride way smoother just because I changed it from alu to carbon, or increased size/weight by some.

so what's the point? what practical and easily appreciated benefits are there? my hunch is a little supported with the fact that when I search for "bicycle fork upgrade" all the talks are about suspension forks, not rigid ones.

>>2034138
Materials bend.
Google steel vs carbon fork compliance and draw your own conclusions.

>>2034139
I just did, but leave durability aside, are the effects inherently and solely based on the material? let's say carbon tends to absorb impact better than steel, is this the "end" for steel, as no matter what the manufacturers do to compensate, steel will never absorb better than carbon, and so on with other material comparisons?

desu I don't trust those salesmen and "expert" in the field that much, they always seem to up sell people with their verdict and recommendations -- the more expensive, the better

>>2034140
You can make carbon bendier or stiffer just like you can make steel. So it's a range to range comparison, not 2 discrete values. You can get a carbon fork that is softer than some steel ones and vice versa.
I choose to believe that steel has higher peak achievable compliance but I have no proof as the bike industry is very much uninterested in objectively measuring the comfort of their productions, which alone should make you stop and ask why.
Carbon WILL be lighter and they'll be sure to remind you of that at every opportunity.
Aluminum does not enter this competition because you can't make it too bendy without it bending permanently.

>>2034136
Keep posting those plush oversize 30 PSI monster truck tires, that will really prove the point about how the fork material mattered

>>2034153
I know, I love the feel of a nice flexy steel fork on chunky gravel or washboard. You can look at the axle from above and see it going back and forth as the fork absorbs the bumps, it's beautiful.

>>2034165
Low IQ post

>>2034143
I see, pretty nice observations from you.
I guess in the end price or material ,or even them combined, cannot give a full picture and an accurate verdict of the quality.
I've been curious why some bike frames can cost way way more than some (supposedly good) bikes, all that price and design effort for just a metal frame. I know that there are stuff like geometry and durability and riding comfort (unique each to his own) but there seems to have no real benchmarks or objective standards, at least from what I read.

I guess it's the same story with forks. they can be high quality for some unconfirmed reasons, and they can be expensive as hell because... they just can.

I thought about buying some third party forks (carbon or steel/iron) and swap with my current alu. but I guess it's just unnecessary

>>2034166
low iq post

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPLNR_0x-L8

>>2032098 (OP)
Who cares. Its all bullshit marketing to scam weight weenies. Youre not a fucking bmx rider jumping down stairs and ledges so it doesnt matter what your shitty chink forks are made of as long as they are light cheap and wont explode randomly.

>>2034170
aluminum forks are the worst there are
>>2034199
this nigga can't do tricks and his bicycle is plastic

>>2034285
>aluminum forks
do you even bzzzz through the handlebars?

>>2034143
>I choose to believe that steel has higher peak achievable compliance but I have no proof
From what I believe, steel has higher stiffness before yielding while carbon has a higher strength to weight Ratio because it has higher ultimate tensile strength which allows carbon to compensate by using more material. This stiffness at the lower end of the stress-strain curve allows steel to be formed into thinner shapes which can bend without experiencing plastic deformation.

>>2034143
>which alone should make you stop and ask why.
What would they "objectively measure"? "Comfort" isn't a number and even if you try to use a proxy like "compliance" (which they sometimes do measure, without announcing it) it's basically meaningless for a consumer seeing it of context because of factors like the weight distribution of the rider (which is a question of geometry)

>>2036436
Frame and fork deflection for example. They do it for seatposts.
We hear about vertically compliant laterally stiff meme frames but there's never numbers to back it up. For all we know they could be lying to us (and they are).

>>2032098 (OP)
Because steel is a fucking meme
Steel bikes are nice as objects of craftsmanship, but they literally do everything worse than even hydroformed aluminum outside of durability

"Steel is real" is a marketing ploy by small builders because building steel frames is comparatively very easy to do in a small business compared to carbon, alum and titanium. It takes huge investment and workforce to make carbon and (to some extent) aluminum frames, titanium is easier but it's slower and takes much more skill in welding since everything needs to be insanely clean and you need to use purge boxes and shit in setup (it's way more finnicky to weld Ti well than Chromoly).

>>2032098 (OP)
I love steel, steel is real.
The material is eternal compared to alu or carbon that explodes.

Steel is max what you need and also cheaper. Alu was just lighter and harder which is marketing for regular ppl.
Racers can benefit from it, but regular human being rides to enjoy.

Compare Ferrari with Mercedes. Ferrari is faster sure but hassle to ride in comfort and maintain.
Mercedes is still fast, but much more pleasant experience.

Also 0-60 numbers are meaningless. Nobody uses cars for 0-60 racing. 60-150 number is what matters because most all connect to highways, but even then, my old Opel with 55 tired horses could do it.

Marketing is not same as your individual wants and needs.

I love my chro-mo bike, the look, the way it rides, the sound it makes when I flick the frame.

Sure other frames can be made to be similar to pleasantnes of steel, but they will never be steel.
Like Lambo can make a SUV and Ferrari can make a SUV.
But they will never be a Jeep, they will never be Toyota Hilux.

Buy what you enjoy and want and will ride. But to claim steel is inferior is pure distilled brainletism slowly fermented over years.
If you would use same energy to something valuable you would go far.

>>2036640
Carbon and aluminum are more comfortable than steel. Manufacturers can adjust tube shapes and geometries with those materials, the amount of adjustment for small builders with steel is basically non-existent. Some super high end ones can have custom tubing made, but that's rare and still like 5% the amount of adjustment that CF and hydroformed aluminum affords.

I love well made steel frames, but I like them for the craftsmanship and vibe.

>>2036679
Post some of the well made steel frames that you own.

>>2036635
Production of an aluminium frame costs 25$.
Yet this shit is sold for 20x the price.

>>2036635
>It takes huge investment and workforce to make carbon
Hahahaha. Now THIS is pure marketing. Carbon is the cheapest shit, made in china using slave labor.

>>2036989
Why are china bad posters always so belligerently stupid sounding?

It is possible that chinese manufacturing *consumes* the majority of carbon fiber production but most of the actual fibers are, at this point, still produced outside of china

>>2036640
>Steel is max what you need and also cheaper
Maybe 20 years ago. Buy a steel bike today and you will pay more than an aluminium bike with the same spec

>Alu was just lighter and harder
Have you ever handled aluminium? It is not hard in any capacity compared to steel lmao

I'm a steel enjoyer myself but this is bullshit

Also those car metaphors are retarded

>>2032098 (OP)
I mostly like steel for the peace of mind that my bike will probably outlast me and not randomly snap one day.

>>2037010
You can't make aluminium bendy without it deforming permanently.
There's a reason nobody makes alu springs. Or forks.

>>2037030
You don’t know what hardness means, do you?

>>2037033
We're talking in the context of bicycle frames, do you have autism?

>>2037034
No.
Are you talking about ductility? Stiffness? E-modulus?

>>2037035
>no
>but actually yes

>>2037009
Poor cope, retard.

>>2037030
>You can't make aluminium bendy without it deforming permanently.
https://youtu.be/XYIV6O6tOvY?t=200https://youtu.be/XYIV6O6tOvY?t=200

what's going on here then?

you also notice a genuine comfort difference going to a nice aluminium seatpost over those 2 piece steel ones

>>2037084
zing, you really showed him

>>2032104
Also take into consideration there are exceptions to every rule. In the bmx racing world titanium forks are good simply because they’re light and can take an impact and no other consideration really needs to be taken into play, you also see butted carbon forks in that world for similar reasons. They don’t need ride comfort, vibration dampening, nothing like that. The bike has to go stupidly fast and the front needs to be light to pull off the ground for brief moments of time. Thus titanium or carbon rigid forks.
There will be a use case for every material in some application.

>>2036679
>Carbon and aluminum are more comfortable than steel.

Not to me. Carbon I never rode but Im not interested as its not permanent type of thing, it will eventually break. And its not as safe as steel. I heavily suspect considering online opinions videos etc, its not comfortable as steel.

Aluminium I rode, decent bikes from Trek, and some others. All suck.
MTB with full front suspension, if made from Alu, it feels stiffer. It feels weird. Its not pliable. Steel is like riding a cloud. It gives you confidence. You should try.

>>2037030
this. Aluminium as material sucks for bike frames. If you are pro chasing microseconds. But most arent. Most ride for joy of riding. If you do that, no point in Alu.
Material gets "tired" and breaks. Alu and Carbon.
Bike industry is a meme. I much more prefer steel. Even mass produced Chromo steel frames are Glorious, let alone custom built. WHICH IS STEEL CHEAPER than a mass produced carbon bike or alu bike.

I consider a lot what I buy, I wanna buy things that LAST. Steel lasts. Alu and carbon are memes.


I also read steel is cheaper than Alu and simpler to produce. The only reason why its more expensive is because the industry standard became ALU so the process is "set in".

But there are some great frames and you can always buy used, compared to carbon XD or Alu.

Your bike is 1 kg lighter? Good. But its uncomfy transient piece of meme.

Meanwhile modern steel if built by spec especially (if you a light dude) will be light as fu, but comfy and springy, like riding a cloud. It will feel like you are on with bike.

I rode several Alu bikes and on regular rodes my palms would get numb, even with 32 tires.

My 25 Steel Steed I NEVER HAD that problem. Even tho its much more aggressive position riding, and thinner tires.

Alu and Carbon are exploding pieces of shit that were brainwashed into people who never will compete to buy and pay extra. its pure marketing, zero substance.

>>2037260
Steel as material is ideal for bikes, considering price and what you get and the durability of it, comfort, everything.

Design is personal thing but I love the look too.
Its the OG "this is a bike" design. None of that bottom tube palm with top tube hair diameter, assymetric uglyness.

There are no benefits to aluminum except rigidness, so your pedal stroke is more transmitted to ground. But who cares about that? Only racers, at pinnacle of road racing. Which is why also carbon is good, plus also lighter.

Steel tho, is for everyone else who enjoys riding and doesnt change bike every race.
Steel is a loyal golden retriever of bike frames, carbon is pitbull and aluminum is some bs.

There are zero arguments for anything but steel, outside of pinnacle of pro racing.

And prices CAN go down if more people buy steel.

You guys when you grow out of your small minds, will realize that buying new shiny shit every few years because its marketed well, is draining on you, plus it supports bad business practices and lowers quality of goods, not to mention - it poisons environment.

Buy steel love earth love yourself, make love, ride free, ride smooth.

Alu is for suicidal people who chase the "finishline" who dont enjoy the journey of life, who fall for marketing shemes, for simply said - idiots.

Buy a cast iron pan. Fuck teflon.
Buy a nice fountain pen. Stop using cheap pens, fish food basically...
Buy coconut oil and refuse to finance idiotic plastic wrapped chemistry they say you need as aftershave.

Guys, its BETTER for you, its not "cheaper alternative that sucks" its literally
BETTER for you and environment and everyone on the Planet.

Only idiots fall for marketing of big companies. THINK a bit before you invest. Dont just buy, INVEST ffs

Wake up. Jesus F Christ Alllmighty.
Everyone is boss on other boards but then when they have to vote with their money they do same stupid shit they are programmed to do
Buy stuff that lasts, stuff that is WORTH IT.

>>2037262
The very first documented case of shroomposting

Steel owners, let’s see what you are talking about. Post your own bikes, not some propped up social media bs

>>2037285
I have yet to see a high end steel bike posted on /n/ in any of the PYBT threads that anyone obviously spent their own money on. It's always some 50 year old dumpster dived lemond with DUI bars where if you're lucky they put new cable housing on it and a brooks cambium. The only high end bikes I've seen are carbon except that one japanese guy with the blinged out panasonic with dura ace and gokiso but that one was titanium

>>2037285
That's my 5th or 6th steel bike, I'd have to count.
But after the first one I haven't bought a frame made of anything else. I have no interest in garbon and I know for a fact alu can't ride as well.

>>2037313
How would you know how the material rides with those big ass tires and a leather saddle though

>>2037314
Because I had those wheels and the saddle on a different frame and it rode like shit.
It was also steel but I never argued that you can't make a steel frame that rides badly.

>>2037285

>>2037325
the DUI bike that comes with its own liquor bottle

>>2037262
Christopher Columbus drove his diesel truck up onto the beach of Hispaniola. "Damn I love being white" he said, punching a native child as he climbed out. "I don't think this is China" said his navigator; "Shut up libtard" came the reply from behind a veil of cigar smoke. "Please sir" said the Taino chief, "these are our ancestral lands where we have lived in an entirely peaceful utopia for thousands of years. We don't even know what war is."

"Sounds like WOKE NONSENSE to me" guffawed Columbus, his very presence introducing microplastics into the ecosystem as he cracked a Miller High Life. "This is MAGA country now, boy" he proclaimed before shooting the chief with an unregistered AR-15. The other natives scattered in terror, sheltering their nonbinary tribe members from the bullets and slurs that now ripped through the treeline. "Kek" said Columbus, loading another 30-round assault magazine. 'This is based. Wait until 4chan hears about this."

>>2037285
I don't notice any difference between am aluminum bike but I haven't had it long.

I wonder if people would have an easier time telling what material their bike is if they just used carbon fiber soles on their shoes

i just like how steel looks.
also longevity, i don't think it matters with new bikes, but i'd rather buy a 30 yo steel than aluminium or carbon frame

>>2032098 (OP)

Because carbon can catastrophically fail, and pitch you under a truck. All my bikes have had steel or aluminium forks, with zero problems.

>>2042198
A friend of mine asked me if I could take a look at this bike he bought cause it made strange noises and he couldn't ride hands-free due to some wobbling.
I took a look and his steel fork was literally broken in half. Like, one leg was only held in place by the wheel, and freely grinding against the upper part.
He had ridden at least 300km on that before he came to me.

>>2034153
>>2037314
Why are you even arguing when you obviously never tried it?

Had you actually tried it, you'd know that the seats and the tires don't fucking matter. It's about how the frame transmits (or doesn't transmit) vibrations. On steel all you feel are the contact points (seat, grips) and you feel them just as much as on any other bike. What you don't feel is anything else, the vibrations reverbarating through the frame. There's nothing there. No tire, no seat, no grip has any influence over this because you feel all the contact points just the same.

>>2037292
yoooooooooo
>>2034187
also this, most forks made since the mid 1980s have very little flex at all
>>2041668
check the inside of the frame for rust tho

>>2039642
>Italian
>white
????

>>2041668
I bought the previous model of this Cinelli Tutto Plus. It's a good frame, but comes with cheap parts.
I had to replace the entire drivetrain (except the cranks), tires, handlebars, brake levers, seatpost, saddle and pedals to make it good.
Better to build up from just the frame (although that's also a bit overpriced, now that more fixed gear frames come with wider tire clearance).

>>2032217
a pound of carbon is like 20 pounds of steel

Carbon is lighter. But steel can survive impacts that may leave a carbon frame cracked and is more utilitarian for a commuter. You're comparing apples to oranges. Both are good in their own respective disciplines. For sport where speed is a must ofc carbon is the choice for many. Steel and aluminium are fine for the average person.

>>2032102
Incels don't ride bikes. They ride their own dick over anime gooning webm threads on /gif/.

>>2039644
Nice cross chain anon

>>2041668
How good are Cinelli bikes? Are they a legit brand or are you paying for the name? They seem kinda hipstery but I like the way they look.

>>2047311
They are about as legit as it gets which is why you're paying for the name. If you want to stretch every dollar get a Canyon. If you want something that appeals to you on an emotional level, get some hipstered up Italian thing that costs $5000 for a Claris build

>>2047311
The Cinelli Tax is real. But their paint jobs are also real. If you're after the best components for the price, go somewhere else. But if you're willing to pay a bit more for a bike that looks a bit better, Cinelli is an option. Also, they straight up offer bike options you get nowhere else, like the Tutto Plus.

>>2034165
If I'm riding anywhere that warrants tires like that, I'd honestly just prefer a suspension fork.

>>2037285
best bike I ever owned

>>2032098 (OP)
>If steel is so great, why do the finest steel bikes in the world use carbon forks?

Because they need people to keep repurchasing something.
A good steel frame can last for more than a century, the industry is still seething from the monumental cock up of being totally unprepared for the mountain bike boom, and reacting by over building components and frames to the extent that they are not only still being ridden, but are indeed sought after 40 years later!

So they need something that is going to catastrophically fail at some point, to keep the sheep running back to the trough.

>>2047351
>meme made in china boat anchor bike sold to people who live in SF
sorry