Thread 2043128

This thread is for talking about railways, and things related to railways, in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - that means we're all about big intercity trains, modest rural trains, long freight trains, trips, tracks, trams, subways, stations, you get the idea. Trains are cool.

If you're planning a journey, take a look at the nationalrail.co.uk/ journey planner - tell it where you're headed from and to, and it'll show you your options before handing you over to a train company so you can buy a ticket. Doesn't matter which train company, they'll all charge the same price for the same seat on the same journey. Overseas visitors - trip.com and thetrainline.com are your best option.

Here's a few links:
~New rolling stock currently on order, listed (trainlogger.co.uk/units/)
~A Visual History of Railway Rolling Stock in Great Britain (gaelan.me/br-stock/)
~The Man in Seat 61 (seat61.com/) - easily the best rail travel resource out there.
~Geoff Marshall (youtube.com/@geofftech2) - likes trains. Mostly harmless.
~Jago Hazzard (youtube.com/@jagohazzard) - London train history. Ditto.

...and some cool 'open data' stuff:
~Realtimetrains (realtimetrains.co.uk/) - live train timetables: ideal for keeping on top of ETAs and platforms.
~Openrailwaymap (openrailwaymap.org/) - not quite 'Google Maps for railway infrastructure', but close.
~TIGER (https://tiger.worldline.global/home/) - live departure boards.
~Traksy (traksy.uk/live/) - live signalling information.
~London Underground Live (www.londonunderground.live/) - a real-time, geographically-accurate Tube map.

What's happening?
~The railway is being put into public ownership: gov.uk/guidance/great-british-railways/
~Phase One of High Speed 2 (Birmingham-London): hs2.org.uk/
~The Transpennine Route Upgrade - upgrading & electrifying the Liverpool-York mainline: thetrupgrade.co.uk/
~The Midland Main Line electrification (no website...)
~The East Coast Digital Programme: nextgenerationrailway.co.uk/

What's in the news lately?
~Labour nationalises Rod Stewart's railway, despite the star's protests (thedailymash.co.uk/politics/labour-nationalises-rod-stewarts-railway-20250529257401/)
~First HS2 platforms installed at Old Oak Common station (mediacentre.hs2.org.uk/news/first-platforms-for-britains-new-high-speed-railway-installed-at-old-oak-common-station/)
~The Great Northern route is now entirely 'digitally signalled' (networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/great-northern-route-to-city-of-london-transformed-into-uks-first-signals-free-commuter-railway/)
~Network Rail are looking to replace the ageing 'yellow fleet' - including the Flying Banana (newcivilengineer.com/latest/network-rail-engages-on-1-2bn-contract-to-replace-yellow-fleet-with-new-monitoring-tech-12-05-2025/)
~New London-Stirling open-access service due to launch next year (https://www.therailwayhub.co.uk/71488/new-london-stirling-service-expected-to-launch-mid-2026/)

Cool stuff to do:
~lner.co.uk/our-destinations/popular-destinations/trains-to-york/things-to-do-in-york/ - take a trip at 125mph from King's Cross to York. Make sure to spend an hour or two in the National Railway Museum near York station, and take in York Castle and the city's Viking history exhibits afterward.
~avantiwestcoast.co.uk/where-we-go/destination-guides/lake-district/ - journey through the Dales into Oxenholme, and go mountain biking through the gorgeous natural scenery of the Lake District national park.
~www.sleeper.scot/destination/ftw/ - take the Caledonian Sleeper from London to Fort William, then change onto the westcoastrailways.co.uk/jacobite/steam-train-trip/ Jacobite steam train that'll take you over the famous Glenfinnan 'Harry Potter viaduct'.
~scenicrailbritain.com/lines/st-ives-bay-line/ - the St Ives Bay Line will take you to the sandy beaches of Cornwall.
~cadw.gov.wales/visit/places-to-visit/caerphilly-castle/ - visit the largest castle in Wales, a short walk from the station.

...always annoys me that this board's software doesn't recognise the home nations' TLDs.

Anyway, this thread's book recommendation is The Subterranean Railway, by Christian Wolmar. Much like the author's other work, this is a social history, rather than lists of dates and engineering specifications - this time of how the London Underground came about in the first place, developed under a succession of geniuses and dodgy characters, declined post-WW2 into the 1950s, and somehow stuck around from Eden to Thatcher to become one of the world's finest urban transit networks.

As you'd expect, other than the stuff everyone knows already (London clay! Metro-land! Harry Beck's Tube map! Everyone's favourite anti-hero, Charles Tyson Bloody Yerkes!), the entertaining stuff is the shit that was flung at the wall that didn't quite stick - or how they actually got permission and funding before spades hit dirt - or how some things (NIMBYism, constant rows over financing and construction) truly never change. It's good. Go read it.

Six HS2 platforms at Old Oak Common seems a little low. Seems to be a severe lack of future-proofing.
By contrast, the new high-speed through-station in Stuttgart has 8.

>>2043132
...and here are the 29 platforms that puts everything you like to shame. For shame.

(putting hand to ear) What's that? Apples and oranges? Oh.

>>2043133
Is this some weird consequence of rural Chinese taking forever to board during major holiday migrations?

>>2043135
Pass. Still, one of my favourite CR anecdotes is that they used to run double-decker intercity trains as a matter of course back in the nineties, but by the turn of the millennium they'd been phased out in favour of conventional single-deck coaches, for the usual reasons - you get better return on your investment by improving the track, segregating traffic and running fast, long, frequent single-deck passenger trains instead, particularly at older stations with high passenger counts where you can't just plonk down a dozen or so new platforms (sound familiar?).

>>2043135
It's a consequence of good old fashioned despot monument building

...anyway, it's interesting to note that Phase One of HS2 has progressed to the stage where it's visible from space for pretty much its entire length. Switch to satellite view, turn off labels, scroll out a little bit, and there it is: all the way from London down to the outskirts of Birmingham.

>>2043141
American here. I have the sense that the worst NIMBYism in the UK is in rural south England.
Seems to me that future extensions of HS2 northwards should be easier. Not easy, but easier.

>>2043144
Probably an easier 'sell' if there's an operational railway to begin with: like how they used to electrify A to B, then C to D, and oh wouldn't you know it, think of the overall benefits if we were to electrify B to C!

>>2043141
I like that they're clearly pressing ahead with at least passive provision for Phase 2 ... which I'm of the opinion will be built, as designed, eventually, just a quarter-century behind schedule. God only knows as regards twiddly bits like the Golbourne link and so on.

>>2043137
unfortunately, all the logic and hard data in the observable universe means nothing to weaselly knobheads like this. who've decided that they want double-decker trains; there's no fundamental issue preventing double-deckers from existing that cannot be overcome somehow; and thus the reason they aren't on a double-decker right now is because the train companies are all incompetent. like you may as well go outside and talk to trees instead, and you'd have more chance of a decent conversation

Two new Class 99s turned up in Bristol today, to go into service with GB Railfreight by the end of the year. The other 28 making up the rest of the fleet are to follow by this time next year.

Also, shameful lol

https://www.barnardos.org.uk/events/your-view-forth-bridge

>Your View is an amazing opportunity to enjoy a 360 degree, uninterrupted panorama view of the Edinburgh and Fife coastline as you have never seen them before - from 361 feet up atop the iconic Forth Bridge!
>Your View is always an event to remember. Over the last six years, we've welcomed 6,321 adventurous visitors, assisted by 290 volunteers, raised £382,000, and even had 11 proposals on the bridge!
>In 2024, we raised over £55k for Barnardo's Scotland, which went towards our Employability, Training and Skills work providing employability support and training for young people, and our Child Poverty Campaign to help support children and their families in our services throughout Scotland. This event would not be possible without the generous support of Network Rail, Balfour Beatty and the Briggers to whom we are extremely grateful.

...I'm really, really, really tempted.

crackdown on fare dodging

>https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/great-british-railways-in-action-passengers-benefit-from-track-and-train-being-united-on-south-eastern-railway
>Southeastern and Network Rail Kent Route have united under a single leadership team to drive investment and efficiency and deliver for passengers and freight in an important step towards Great British Railways (GBR). Further regional arrangements will come into place as other services transfer into public ownership.
>Operating as the South Eastern Railway team, and overseen by Managing Director Steve White, the streamlined structure will allow for a more responsive railway with a common purpose and clear accountability for railway performance across the network.

LNER, GWR, now SER ... LMS next?

seeing the peak district via the Hope Valley line. feeling blessed

Nicked from Reddit: from the press launch of the Railway 200 'Inspiration' train at Paddington, featuring the world's cleanest Class 66 loco and ... it's probably a little underwhelming in the flesh. Love the Big Four logos though.

>GWR’s battery trains trials could bring big benefits to small lines
>https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/gwrs-battery-trains-trials-could-bring-big-benefits-to-small-lines-82169/
>At the moment, the cost of a diesel train is approximately £2.60 per mile, compared to 57p per mile for overhead-powered electric trains. Battery trains cost the same per mile, but avoid the upfront electrification costs, which average around £4.15 per train mile.
>GWR is now working on the assumption that a fast charger is needed every 100km of railway, at a cost of around £1.3 million. Therefore, the total cost of ownership of a battery train service would be just £2.52 per train mile.

...mixing and matching units (pence, pounds, miles, km...), but the figures come from the linked GWR white paper. Assuming they work for branch lines that haven't a hope of making their money back from the farebox, the numbers look good ... God help us if the DfT decide catenaries must be pulled down in the name of cost savings lol

As everyone seem to have ideas about extending the Waterloo & City Line, I’ll throw my hat into the ring.

You make the line to Bank a spur, add a station near to Cannon Street (City?) or a bit further along, the continue the line to Fenchurch Street.

Fenchurch St gets a tube connection, double the platforms in the City, more demand outside of the peaks. You can even have 3 shuttles between Waterloo- Bank/City and Fenchurch St-City

Either that or have turn backs past the platforms and Waterloo to allow 2 trains in platforms whilst the 3rd is turned around

I know it will probably never happen as TfL have bigger fish to fry, but the crayon chewer in me likes it

>>2047304
as pointed out by a certain youtuber, this always, always feels like an 'I am compelled to fiddle with this thing in order to satisfy my own brainworms' rather than solving a tangible, IRL problem. go too far down that road and you end up litigating driverless trains and arguing about definitions of 'tube map' and uggghhhhhh

>>2047400
Yeah I get you.
It's very tempting if you're enthusiastic about the Underground, or transit in general to see a good thing and add to it. I understand the W&C is the way it is for good reasons. Extending from Bank north runs into other tunnels/ BoE vaults. Extending south from Waterloo puts more bodies onto trains that need the capacity from Waterloo. Widening tunnels and extending platforms needs tunnelling and costs £££.

But it does make me wonder how the new 2024 stock will fit, the W&C uses half length trains. I guess they either extend the platforms or take IM & KM sections out to make the new trains fit.

Boop! Uh oh, time for a D&A...

it's ... happening? maybe? kind of?

>https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/greater-manchester-mayor-tables-underground-rail-network-for-city-region-10-07-2025/
>Mayor of Greater Manchester Andy Burnham has put forward a proposal to build an underground rail network for the city region.
>Burnham said: “We will need infrastructure on a bigger scale to cope.
>“It’s not a throwaway line. I am deadly serious.
>“I want TfGM to start preparing the original, first concept for what an underground for Manchester might look like. I’m going to open the earliest conversation with the government on what the funding mechanism will look like.”
>No dates of when a full proposal might be brought forward were given but Burnham was confident detailed plans involving costs and intended works will be put together by 2030.

Has anyone here travelled on the Caledonian Sleeper and willing to share your experience on it? Planning a trip south and wondering if the novelty of it and the benefit of travelling while sleeping is worth it over just flying or taking an LNER train down the ECML.

>>2048200
I've used it for a return between London and Inverness a couple of years ago, then again between London and Edinburgh for the Tattoo + Fringe last year, so even as a trainsexual I feel like I've thoroughly got it out of my system.

The experience is fine - like the Eurostar, once you take off the Youtube sheen it's just a train journey, in this case that you happen to go to sleep on - I'd say go for it, if only for the novelty, and see how you feel. Don't go for the seats, they're only there so they can say 'tickets from £30'.

Random thoughts:
- going south it'll be empty, coming north it'll be ram-jam
- by the time the trains leave their stations it'll be dark, even in August: the only scenery you'll have chance to take in is in the early morning from your cabin window, either rural-ish Scotland (going north) or lower WCML industrial parks (going south)
- the Sleeper lounge at Euston is one of the better station lounges out there - shame it's exclusive to the 'room with a shower' cabins
- normal room pro: bog-standard Sleeper experience. con: means you're either beginning the day with a strategic sink shower, or asking the onboard staff for a 'shower token' to use at your destination
- 'room with a shower' pro: breakfast's included, novelty of a warm shower on a moving train. con: hearing the flush from a neighbouring berth
- whatever you do, make sure you reserve a cabin in the middle of the carriage, so you're not over a bogie
- food on board's not terrible, as far as microwaveable ready meals go

as it happens I've just finished Agatha Christie's Murder on the Orient Express - you know, _the_ 'golden age of international sleeper train travel' story - and it's amusing to me how many passengers seem to need 'sleeping draughts' or some other form of narcotic, to tolerate overnight journeys

>>2043144
Yes, as a Transport Planne, Nimbyism plus midern crony capital corrupt plus Tories, added 30bn to a budget to buikt needless tunnels.

the people that won, are the same idiots that then praise Switzerlands panoramic comfy train stock

Rail in Britain will forever be cucked until a stable government gives DfT proper recruiting and ORR, RSSB AND RAIB work with comfy teams in some form of train desus.

jyst look at who runs these orgs and it's nepotism, toffs, Masons, for some reason, Economics Graduates
aalso:
>Portillo and Grayling are mega bellends

>>2048212
I'd relocate the ORR outside the South East. Let the fuckers see just how much of a pain in the ass their goldplating is.

>>2048197
There isn't enough money (that the Treasury are willing to release) for a full network.

They're better off building a tunnelled route bypassing the Castlefield Corridor (e.g. Piccadilly - St Peter's Square - Salford) that they can increase the capacity on that section. Also, adding the curve back at Ardwick Junction would allow services between Piccadilly and Victoria, or Picc trains North/East and Vic South without needing Castlefield.

Both of those, or even quadrupling Castlefield and adding Platform 15/16 at Piccadilly should be considered before an Underground/ heavy Metro system.

>>20482112
That and don't forget £100m+ for a bat tunnel, to protect ~300 bats in the wood. That's ~£330k per bat.
They would've been better off spending a fraction of that money buying land the other side of the woods from HS2 and re-wilding it so the bats have more habitat.

>>2048432
>Both of those, or even quadrupling Castlefield and adding Platform 15/16 at Piccadilly should be considered before an Underground/ heavy Metro system.
True, but, you're thinking from a national perspective. Mr. Burnham is, of course, thinking from a local perspective for local people ... also why he's been banging the drum, hard, for a Manchester HS2 station that isn't, delicately speaking, built to Treasury standards.

>>2048432
Burnham seems to be thinking of something along the lines of a Manchester S-Bahn...

>>2048459
>>2048464
Agreed, he's mayor of Greater Manchester, and wants to make noise about his county.

If it isn't already in place, the best new transit idea for TfGM would be a radial Metrolink route, or Superloop style bus services. Both of which could connect the boroughs without needing to go into the centre and back out again.

one more 'absolutely bonkers enthusiast takes' image to add to the collection...

>>2048459
>a Manchester HS2 station that isn't, delicately speaking, built to Treasury standards.
I mean, why not dream big? Let's quad-track the Castlefield corridor: and then while the city centre is going to be a construction site for a decade or so, let's reopen Mayfield as Manchester's HS2 station to boot. Fuck it, let's join Mayfield to the Corridor while we're at it, thus solving the 'how to get HS2 to Liverpool' issue as well as offering a high-speed domestic service between two of the country's biggest cities.

>https://www.orr.gov.uk/search-news/orr-network-rail-delivering-efficiently-cost-pressures-remain-and-industry-must-keep
>ORR: Network Rail delivering efficiently, but cost pressures remain and industry must keep focus on safety throughout rail reform
>The Office of Rail and Road (ORR) has delivered its assessment of Great Britain’s railway in its annual reports released today (Thursday 17 July). ORR highlights that Britain’s railway remains one of the safest in Europe and the industry has made good progress in a number of areas, including taking action to address overdue structure assessments and dealing with weather-related risk, although this has been delivered in the context of focussed regulatory attention. However, clear issues remain with record high rail cancellations, the majority of which are attributed to train operating companies, and financial challenges for Network Rail.

Mildly interesting. Weather risk, a weird series of level crossing issues, cost pressures through inflation, still a safe railway to use. Sort of a, 'keep on keeping on' kind of thing.

me and the boys

What's wrong with the new DLR train sets?

Looks like the new I-forget-what-it's-called wayfinding scheme signage is going in at Clapham Junction, and it looks really smart when done with a little thought and care.

https://vimeo.com/1095076736

'One, single, consistent signage across the entire railway' is probably a pipe dream, especially with three decades of private operation having scattered that concept to the seven seas, but, still. It's a start.

..and also: mild lol, mixed with mild terror:

>On board, staff handed out LNER bucket hats and t-shirts, and there was an on-board musician for the obligatory sing-alongs.

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n54MALw5aDc
>https://mediacentre.hs2.org.uk/news/the-big-reveal-hs2-to-showcase-train-interior-design-development
>Rail enthusiasts heading to Alstom’s The Greatest Gathering event in Derby this weekend (1-3 August) will have the opportunity to see the concept designs for HS2’s Class 895 trains.
>The design features include:
>A generous seat pitch – with more leg room than any other standard class UK train
>Improved overhead and beneath the seat luggage storage, recognising that passengers prefer to have their possessions close by
>Baby changing tables, clothing/bag hooks and a pull-down child seat in toilet cubicles, reflecting feedback from families travelling with small children
>Saloon seats with a spacious dropdown tray table and a separate shelf to stand phones on when viewing video content
>Multiple power and charging options including 3-pin plugs and USB-C
>Redesigned horizontal bike storage, which maximises space and makes it quicker and easier for cyclists to board and alight
>The bogies will be manufactured in Crewe, the bodyshell welding and electrical installation will be completed in County Durham, and the interior fit out will be completed at the Hitachi-Alstom High Speed joint venture facility in Derby.

They've taken care to point out that these aren't the final seats, these aren't the final colours, and there's been multiple changes to the structure of the train since the mockups were built, mostly around feedback from the handicapped ... so pleased that they actually went and built mockups for people to walk around and bang their heads on the overhead racks, rather than monging out about VIRTUAL REALITY.

Missed the boat for tickets to the Greatest Gathering. Oh well.

>>2050069
I also missed the boat anon. If only I had pulled my finger out of my arse and organised it properly.

>https://www.orr.gov.uk/search-news/orr-approves-limited-new-passenger-services-east-coast-main-line-december-2025

A handful more open access operations will run from next year as well - nothing earth-shaking, just the existing operators getting a little larger slice of the pie: a couple of extra Grand Central services from Bradford and Wakefield to London, an extra Hull Trains service between Hull and London, and Lumo are extending a handful of their services to Glasgow via Edinburgh, in addition to a few more Newcastle runs

I think it's all something to do with the long, long, long overdue timetable recast they're planning for the ECML for December - if memory serves Grand Central were after buying new 80x trains contingent on expanding their services, and I think Lumo have taken over the KGX-GLC service from LNER

>>2049659
Teething trouble with the signalling, apparently:
>https://www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk/2025/02/08/new-dlr-train-introduction-saga-continues/
>“While there had been earlier challenges discovered during the testing of the new trains, we were implementing a plan to address these.
>“But the discovery of the signalling issue means that further detailed analysis and software modifications need to take place. We are working hard to bring the new trains into service as soon as possible.”
I vaguely remember hearing something about the new trains randomly overshooting platforms, might just be online chatter though. God knows they're sorely needed, heading towards Canning Town it's like you're doing the hula if you're standing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz3SC92cC4I

Love this. Delta Junction at dusk, eerily stark + beautiful on a warm summer's night.

Nicked from one of the brainmelts over at Railuk, taken at the Greatest Gathering: the current plan - who knows if it'll change down the line - for seating arrangements on HS2's Class 895s. 8x25m coaches make up a single 200m unit, which will be run doubled-up as a complete 16-coach 400m train. Whispers are that the platform edge doors at HS2 stations are being binned, but, again, who knows.

Doesn't look like there's anything out of this world going on - dedicated bike storage and buggy storage? OK then - and I'm half-wondering if there's a miniature galley at the first-class end - otherwise *shrug*

>>2050069
I've not heard good things regarding the attendees. Absolutely cracking open day, don't get me wrong: well organised, basically an airshow for trains -- the issue being enthusiasts publicly melting down, causing a fuss about bags at the entrance, refusing to queue neatly for the stuff everyone wanted to see (43s, 91s, Tornado etc) and if you can believe it, vandalising the fucking exhibits (literal BAZZA WOZ ERE tags, nicking lamps and stuff). Death to the wooly-hat-and-camera brigade, each and every last one of them. Absolutely shameful behaviour from grown adults

>>2050435
Where have you heard this? Everywhere I have looked has everyone giving glowing reviews with complaints about the lack of seating and the price of food.

NRM at the Gathering: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_MGLxhQi0I

(I'm honestly surprised there's not been a Jago or a Geoff video on the topic yet)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NInF4GqcRow

Which one of you is this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck7YJgA3fIE

New Piccadilly Line trains are on test ... shame this appears to have been filmed by a potato.

>>2049710
>Urge to kill rising

*sigh* Branson wants to be in the news again.

>https://bmmagazine.co.uk/news/virgin-orders-12-alstom-trains-eurostar-challenge/
>Virgin Trains has agreed a deal with French manufacturer Alstom for 12 new high-speed trains as part of its plan to compete with Eurostar on cross-Channel routes from 2030.
>The company’s submission to the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) confirms it has secured binding exclusivity for the Avelia Stream model — the latest generation of the Pendolino tilting trains that Virgin introduced to the UK’s West Coast Main Line two decades ago. Similar trains are already in service in Sweden and Italy.
>Virgin’s proposal outlines services from London St Pancras to Paris, Brussels, and Amsterdam, with longer-term ambitions to extend further into France, Germany, and Switzerland. The venture will be led by Phil Whittingham, former boss of Virgin Trains UK.

>Construction to start next year on the first part of the Crossrail 2 railway
>https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/construction-to-start-next-year-on-part-of-the-crossrail-2-railway-83248/

...disingenuous shit, it's just the British Library extension that'll leave a void for the Crossrail 2 station that'll eventually, maybe, probably, end up being built in situ. But, yes, technically it's CR2 infrastructure.

>>2051649
I'll take it.

>Merseyrail 'tap-and-go' ticketing launched
>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0mlgwv8lxgo
>A new contactless payment system for purchasing train tickets on the Merseyrail network has been launched.
>The "tap-and-go" system allows passengers to use a MetroCard linked to their bank account to make journeys across the Liverpool City Region.
>The second phase will launch later this year and will see passengers able to use their bank card, or devices such as phones or watches, without the need for a MetroCard.

Long, long overdue imo. From the sound of things, it's been thought out properly - daily/weekly caps, useful across rail, bus and ferry and so on - so that's London, Manchester and now Liverpool where you can get around with either a smartcard if you're local, or the bank card you already have if you're visiting.

Thinking about it a little, I suppose the fashion these days is to assume there should be 'one smartcard to rule them all', which I'd disagree with - the point of having local schemes for local people is so they can work locally, I don't see a particular reason why a Bee Network card should let you onto the DLR or, you get the idea.

Oh, and.

>Great Western Railway battery train sets new world distance record of 200 miles to celebrate Railway 200 in style
>https://railuk.com/rail-news/great-western-railway-battery-train-sets-new-world-distance-record-of-200-miles-to-celebrate-railway-200-in-style/

Not much to add. Obviously catenary is the grand ideal, but, for arse-end-of-nowhere branch lines with a two-car 40-year-old DMU currently puttering back and forth all day every day, swapping in a battery pack is the obvious stopgap.

>>2051944
You leave my 40-year-old DMU alone. She's perfect the way she is.

>>2052181
Based 40-year-old DMU respecter

I searched 'ancient 20-tonne pile of scrap that's always breaking down and pollutes the atmosphere with its noxious exhaust' and it took me to OP's house

>>2052237
>tonne

We use tons here.

>>2052181
Luv me Class 158

Simple as.

>>2048459
>built to Treasury standards
"Treasury standards" tend to be massively over-expensive, making getting anything new done cost many times what it should and take a lot longer.

>>2048197
I can't see this happening. I would love it, but we already have trams and buses, and they aren't overcrowded. I would give my left arm for an underground rail line from the airport to the city centre, stopping in every suburb along the way (Wythenshawe, Northenden, Didsbury, Withington, etc) but why would anyone spend all that money just to make a faster 43 bus with added tunnels and fewer stops?

>>2052436
I think the logic is to get this nailed down *before* the entire network starts bulging at the seams - like everyone knows the cliché about how the best time to start building [thing] was two decades ago - God only knows how things will end up, but from the sound of it things are at least being thought about in a joined-up kind of way:

>https://railuk.com/travel/plans-progress-for-expansion-of-greater-manchesters-tram-and-train-network/
>Launched as part of the Greater Manchester Strategy in July, the Mayor and local council leaders pledged for 90% of people in city-region to be within a five-minute walk of a bus or tram that comes at least every 30 minutes by 2030. The work is all part of a plan to link every borough in Greater Manchester to the Metrolink network, with a long-term plan for major expansion of the Bee Network.

>>2043563
This card is carried by the gang of retards nominally 'in charge' of finally manifesting the 810 Aurora.

>>2043144
>NIMBYism
Forced purchases are still theft. Repeal planning laws.

>>2048212
Rail’s been fucked since the start of the 20th century due to all the various government interventions we’ve had. Too many regulations means nobody can invest their capital in useful stuff nor innovate. Then massive state spending means theres little incentive to compete with what the state’s offering for “free”. Then following massive taxes means nobody’s even got capital to invest.

Pulling on the thread of miserable UK rail reveals its part of pratically every other problem from immigration to housing to jobs. Any politician even vaugely willing to improve things realises this, and backs off seeing how enormous in scope the restructure it would be, how many lifetimes it would take, and how likely your assassination or lynching would be in the meantime. UK’s done, WW1 and 2 took us out, dyagenics and leftism did the rest.

>>2048432
> There isn't enough money
Certainly not now. Of the £20 billion of bonds printed recently, £16 billion were purely interest payments. Labour can’t count. Never could, never will. At least treacherous tories scam it for themselves.

But again, just watch Yes, Minister to understand how any fleeting moment of goodwill from a politician is stamped out by the horrid beast of a problem the country is. Theoretically fixable (mind control, infinite energy, necromancy), not practically.

Oh fuck off.

>https://transportdesigned.com/introducing-northerns-new-network-map/
Northern have redesigned their service map. At first I thought it was just another stupid fucking map nerd 'look how clever we are at representing complex stuff visually' nonsense - because at the end of the day, service patterns are unavoidably complex because that's the pattern that most efficiently meets peoples' needs: it's not *meant* to look pretty on a map, whatever shade of ochre you make the lines or how thick they are. Still, it's interesting, and pretty to look at.

...and a data breach at LNER. https://www.lner.co.uk/news/lner-media-update-data-information/
>We have been made aware of unauthorised access to files managed by a third-party supplier, which involves customer contact details and some information about previous journeys.
>Importantly, no bank, payment card or password information has been affected.

New Railwatch out. As always, some good news, some not-so-good news, mostly Boomers grouching about stuff. https://railwatch.org.uk

>>2048197

just extend the tram to fucking Stockport already

>>2053490
The cowards have left off Carlisle - Nottingham

>Trade in bananas from the West Indies grew very rapidly in the first years of the twentieth century. Imports were started about 1902 by Elders & Fyffe through Bristol and Manchester (Salford) Docks. Within three years, six more boats were in service and three were being built. It was at this point that Elders & Fyffe, who wished to increase the service from Manchester to London, approached the GNR for heated wagons and storage accommodation in the goods yard. They were offered three bays under the new Outwards Shed, in what were formerly the Western Coal Drops.
>The volume shipped via King’s Cross increased from 2,255 tons in 1905 to 7,768 tons in 1907, suggesting that bananas had rapidly become a staple of many Londoners’ diets.
>Milk became an important traffic for the Company in the 1880s. In 1884 King’s Cross dealt with 44,273 churns (a churn held 10 gallons or 46 litres). The Company built special sidings at King’s Cross in 1893 for the milk trade, and by 1910 about 250,000 milk churns were being delivered each year, four or five special milk trains being run every day with many other wagons attached to ordinary trains. The milk platform was formed with a low area so that trucks could be backed directly alongside rail wagons for the transfer of milk churns.
The more I read about the pre-Grouping companies' freight operations, the more I'd love a simulator - or even a Two Point Hospital-a-like - that made use of storage and handling infrastructure like all this.

>>2053995
I've often yearned for a Railroad Tycoon style game where you have to make freight yards (with hump shunting etc.), and trains don't phase through one another, and there are turntables for steam locos etc.

>>2052242
Correct.

*laughs mildly*

>>2053995
What an incredible bit of infrastructure

>>2054340
I can hardly contain my mirth.

>>2053114
>But again, just watch Yes, Minister to understand how any fleeting moment of goodwill from a politician is stamped out by the horrid beast of a problem the country is. Theoretically fixable (mind control, infinite energy, necromancy), not practically.
The integrated transport plan episode is one of my favourites from the whole series, because it's neither the civil serpents nor the politicians who are the ultimate villains, but the general public.

>https://www.therailwayhub.co.uk/71933/locomotion-no-1-replica-to-run-on-stockton-darlington-railway-line-this-weekend/
>A replica of a historic steam locomotive will re-enact the birth of the modern railway this weekend – however Network Rail has issued a safety reminder ahead of the event.
>A newly restored replica of Locomotion No.1 and passenger carriage Experiment will run on sections of the original Stockton and Darling Railway line in County Durham between Friday and Sunday.
>The Anniversary Journey event is part of year-long celebrations to mark the opening of the line on September 27 1825.
>Network Rail has issued a warning to people planning to view the journeys of the “significant danger” of trespassing on the railways.
>Operations director Karen Duffy said: “We want the viewing public to have a fantastic time during this celebratory weekend, but we can’t stress enough how important it is to keep safe.

Usual armchair Clarksons throwing tantrums on Facebook ... God help us if some idiot who just couldn't control themselves gets themselves hurt for their precious scrapbook.

Still, there it is. Mark the date in your calendars: this weekend, two hundred years since it all began.

Might be just >railway journalism, but, it's probably happening? Maybe? Kind of?
>Delayed train fleet set to start running
>The first trains of a new fleet connecting Leicester, Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield with London are set to come into service after their introduction was initially delayed.
>Some trains from the new Class 810 Aurora fleet are now set to be put into use on services in the coming weeks and will complete a phased rollout through 2026.

it's not much, but it's a thing of beauty regardless

St Pancras is 157 years old today. Still looks like a wedding cake compared to its more elegant neighbour, I think.

I'm in LNER-land, and I'll be travelling to Glasgow in February for a concert. Usually if I'm headed to Scotland I'd be on an LNER Azuma from Doncaster so, being a saddo, I'm looking to vary things up a little. I'm currently chewing over a few options.

>TPE Manchester Picc - Glasgow
...which would mean three hours or so on one of the Nova 2 CAF units.

>CrossCountry York - Glasgow
...so a direct service, almost.

>TPE Doncaster - Warrington, Avanti Warrington - Glasgow
...meaning doing the Warrington Central -> Warrington Bank Quay thing, but, honestly, this is the most appealing at the moment.

Thoughts? I'd thought about heading into London for a day out and then doubling-back to Glasgow on the Sleeper; but, I've taken the Sleeper before, and honestly the idea of being dumped into Glasgow at 07:00 in February, wandering around until my hotel room's ready, doesn't appeal lol.

latest Good Railway News:
- Camp Hill line refurbishment well underway (gangs of hi-viz all over the shop), due to re-open by the end of the year
- Transpennine Route Upgrade coming in on time + making major progress around Huddersfield, looking like a model project
- new Newcastle Metro trains and DLR trains gradually coming on stream
- class 810s due to come into service late this year/early next year for Midland services

things are looking good!

>https://mediacentre.hs2.org.uk/news/hs2-celebrates-final-birmingham-tunnel-breakthrough
>An enormous machine being used to dig HS2’s Birmingham approach tunnels broke through today, marking the completion of major tunnel excavation between London’s Old Oak Common and the West Midlands.
>Today’s milestone means that all the excavation is now complete for the 28 miles of deep bore tunnel between Old Oak Common in west London and the railway’s terminus at Birmingham Curzon Street. Construction teams are now mainly focused on internal walkways, ventilation shafts and cross passages.
>Two more TBMs are expected to launch next year to begin digging the tunnels from Old Oak Common to HS2’s final destination, London Euston.
Kind of shit that this is now the message being broadcast, rather than 'fucking look at this achievement':
>Mark Wild, HS2 Ltd’s chief executive, is now leading a comprehensive reset of the programme to deliver the railway in the most efficient way possible and for the lowest reasonable cost.
...but, better than nothing at all, I suppose. Here's a youtube link. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkDbidQdBPg

Oh and Greater Anglia was nationalised as well the other day. Should probably mention that as well lol.

Chiltern take delivery of the former Transpennine Express Mark5 coaches today, which they'll put into service early next year. At least someone's getting to put them to good use!

so, er, there's been a new clock launched. 'A new Timepiece for the Railway'. Apparently the gimmick is that the arrows start out at the 12 o'clock position, meet up at the 6 o'clock position in 30 seconds, then meet again at 12 o'clock in another 30 seconds; so of course one revolution per minute.

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/stories/a-new-timepiece-for-the-railway/

MOST IMPORTANTLY though, there's been some new Design Museum merch produced as a celebration. RAIL SYMBOL SOCKS https://designmuseumshop.com/collections/network-rail-double-arrow-range-by-the-design-museum

>>2055305
CC's York-Glasgow route will be a Voyager most likely (or a coupled pair), so you probably ought to pick something else. They tend to be packed with idiots who can't understand a reservation.
You could also change at both Picc and Preston, if you want more flexibility.
(At least you're not talking about taking the TPE-North routes; the TRU is making them suck a lot about 50% of the time. It's pretty when they're rerouted through Hebden Bridge, but that diversion takes FOREVER. That's my commute route so I know too damn much about this.)

>>2056299
heh. only a matter of time, I suppose https://railclock.davwheat.dev

I have a question. Are electrified tracks actually better? They are electrifying Manchester-Leeds-York at the moment at presumably vast expense. What makes this better? Doesn't make it faster as that is determined by track layout. Isn't any quieter if locomotive hauled, which would be the obvious way to pull any train of known length rather than diesel multiples.

Generating huge amounts of electricity elsewhere then transmitting it carries all sorts of infrastructure costs and surely there is a lot to be said for making the motive power in situ, as every car or boat does. There isn't the risk of power failure either which would cripple the railway whenever it happens.

My assumption is this is a way to build even more infrastructure into the track so have an even stronger incentive to use it.

What stops high speed rail being diesel hauled instead? It is just a bigger engine. What is the actual reason for doing any of this beyond stop-start commuter trains?

*rubbing temples*

>https://mediacentre.eurostar.com/mc_view?language=&article_Id=ka4WS0000000YBNYA2
>Introducing “Eurostar Celestia” - new double-decker, sustainable trains
>Eurostar today announces a landmark €2 billion* investment in up to 50 new double-decker trains built by Alstom Group – the first ever to operate through the Channel Tunnel and on the UK network.
>Eurostar has confirmed an order for 30 trains, with an option for a further 20, marking a significant step in Eurostar’s growth journey to 30 million annual passengers.
>The new fleet, named Eurostar Celestia will be a bespoke design created from Alstom’s Avelia Horizon platform. The 200-metre trains will be interoperable across all five countries served today plus new destinations of Geneva and Frankfurt.

>>2056780
Diesel trains, in this day and age, burn diesel to power a generator that feeds energy to electric motors. Electric trains skip the fuel tank and generator, and suck their juice directly from the overhead catenary: or from the third rail if you're in Kent. The weight savings mean that an electric train will be nippier on its feet than a comparable diesel: and of course they can also do other tricks like regenerative braking.

As for generating electricity elsewhere ... that's basically the National Grid.

>>2056927
The weight saving is minor. Trains have a lot of weight hauling capacity and even motorbikes remain nippy while carrying and engine. Diesel trains can do regenerative breaking too with a small battery if they are the electric transmission type. And diesel cars with mechanical transmissions are plenty nippy enough.

I mean more the economics of it. There must be some factor that makes the costs of electrification worth doing. But it is never spelled out.

>>2056780
There's always a trade-off

Electric trains are much better if you're running frequent trains, have a need for a lot of power & faster acceleration, or have pollution issues.

Diesel trains don't need massive, expensive investment in line side infrastructure and don't have any issues with electric supply compatibility.

In overall performance electric > diesel, but only economic if run enough to pay for their supply equipment.

It's similar to buying vs renting a car. If you're not going to need it often (1 weekend a month), renting is fine. But if you need it every day, if you buy outright you can save more money in the long run.

>>2056927
Not always, a lot of DMUs have a hydraulic transmission as it saves a few tons.

>>2057011
>I mean more the economics of it. There must be some factor that makes the costs of electrification worth doing.
There is: you can run a more intense electric service than you can diesel, for the reasons I mentioned, which (as you say) commuter trains benefit hugely. Then the network effect spreads so that everyone (lol) benefits from nippy electrics that don't require refuelling and have fewer moving parts to take care of.

>>2057039
>a lot of DMUs have a hydraulic transmission
Not really, these days at least. The Western region of BR were fond of them, the bloody snowflakes that they were, but these days there's the 180s that Grand Central are eager to bin off for a new trimode 800 fleet instead, and I think maybe CrossCountry's fleet of Voyagers and/or Super Voyagers?

>>2056849
There's always the dream...

it's been a lot nicer eusing Euston lately, now that they've gotten rid of one of the mini-boards on the concourse and actually announce platforms in advance. it's not fixed forever, it won't be unless the whole pile is knocked down and started from fresh, but it's an improvement.

>>2057011
It's all about energy efficiency and power to weight.

Diesel engines convert fuel (Chemical energy) -> Movement (Kinetic energy) at 40% efficiency maximum. Electric motors convert Electrical energy -> Kinetic energy at ~95% efficiency.
Also because they move power generation off the train to power plants & the grid, electric locos & EMUs are only limited by how much power they can put to rails. In diesels the limit is having a power pack & fuel tank that still fits in the train, which means less power than a full power plant.

>motorbikes & diesel cars remain nippy while carrying an engine
Motorbikes & cars are orders of magnitude lighter than trains, a single carriage bogie weighs nearly as much as a double-decker bus. Power requirements scale linearly with weight. More weight -> bigger engine -> bigger pistons with more inertia -> slower throttle response.

>Diesel trains can do regenerative breaking too with a small battery
Battery tech has only recently been able to do this. Even with Lithium chemistry it still has a weight penalty compared to pure electric. Plus batteries can only supplement diesel for a short-term boost before they need charging.

>>2057042
Nah, Voyagers have electric transmissions. There aren't many diesel-electric DMUs in the UK. The increased efficiency of transmission often doesn't make up for the added weight of the alternators and motors, especially at lower power outputs found in sub 100mph DMUs.

I bought a brass O-Scale model of a Dreyfus Hudson

April-June statistics are out from the ORR. Nothing breathtaking, but still: look at those Elizabeth line figures. Unreal.

>brand new station
>doesn't use RA2 on the signage
reeeeee

>>2057479
>Diesel engines convert fuel (Chemical energy) -> Movement (Kinetic energy) at 40% efficiency maximum. Electric motors convert Electrical energy -> Kinetic energy at ~95% efficiency.
This is incorrect as the conversion from chemical energy to electric happens at the power station and must be accounted for, along with transmission losses. Glancing about online these seem to be about 8% to the consumer (including trains).
Reading here:
https://www.pcienergysolutions.com/2023/04/17/power-plant-efficiency-coal-natural-gas-nuclear-and-more/
it says power station conversion losses are some 66% with coal and nuclear and upwards of 60% efficient for combined cycle gas turbine producers - which is only for base load generation. The "jet engine attached to dynamo" model used to back up variable sources like wind is only 30% efficient.
All sounds within a similar range of an ordinary diesel locomotive taken together.

>Motorbikes & cars are orders of magnitude lighter than trains, a single carriage bogie weighs nearly as much as a double-decker bus. Power requirements scale linearly with weight. More weight -> bigger engine -> bigger pistons with more inertia -> slower throttle response.
Which suggests that the nippiness of electric commuter trains is extreme fuel inefficiency. They are capable of huge power draw to accelerate but if they were driven in the manner of a diesel they would save significant energy.

Railways are the one area where overhead power transmission has prospered. It used to be far more common for roads (in the form of trams and trolleybuses) than it is today and has never caught on for private vehicles. I would like to understand this. India is almost 100% electric now at what must be vast internal investment. There must be quantifiable payoffs for this to be worth doing.

>>2057683
>it says power station conversion losses are some 66% with coal and nuclear and upwards of 60% efficient for combined cycle gas turbine producer
Poorly worded. I mean, power station efficiency by fuel:

Coal 33%
Nuclear 33%
Combined cycle gas 60%
Variable output gas 30%
(the latter paired with with turbines)
Transmission loss -8%
Loss in locomotive -5%

I have been looking online trying ot get a grip on the economics of rail electrification. Especially in progress of it in India, which I real is now some 98% electric. But the interesting thing is Pakistan is exclusively diesel powered and has in fact de-electrified its one electric track

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Railways

This thing is, they are basically the same country. They are culturally hardly distinguishable. It is odd that there would be such a firm divergence on this issue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Railways

It's not been a good few days for the railway, has it ... but, silver linings abound. Or whatever the right phrase is for 'thank fuck things weren't any worse'.

There's been a landslide on the WCML this morning, which derailed a southbound Pendolino. A few bumps and bruises on board, a bit of havoc in the timetable and a little battle damage to the 390 and track, but thankfully that's that. Usual questions to be asked about track upkeep.

Likewise, some loony saw fit to go at people with a knife on the ECML on Halloween ... and yet thanks to some genuine heroics by an onboard staff member (currently in stable condition in hospital) and some seriously quick thinking by a anonymous-as-far-as-I'm-aware signaller to divert the train to Huntingdon, so that armed bastards could subdue and nab the culprit, that's as bad as things were.

It's like, shit happened, as it does, and it's shit that it happened. All you can do is hope that heads are banged together, and books are thrown as needed. Just disheartening to see """enthusiasts""", having grudgingly learned that IS THE TRAIN OK isn't acceptable, are now doing their Chicken Little act and suggesting that seat tray tables should be detachable so they can be used as a bludgeon, or whatever. Fuck's sake.

>>2057484
Happy for you anon, but:
>This thread is for talking about railways, and things related to railways, in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

>>2057596
Absolutely stunning numbers.
Genuinely makes me wonder if they could replicate that success by introducing this concept to other large cities.

>>2057683
These are from people in rail industry sources:
>Electric trains are more efficient in their energy use since there is no energy conversion process other than that which takes place at the motor; the only losses are those from the generation, transmission and motor control processes. In addition, the regenerative braking capability of an electric train increases its efficiency further, recovering up to 20% of the energy consumed. This means a typical electric traction unit has between 182% and 237% of the power of a comparable diesel unit, while requiring only one third of the energy. For urban transit, trams are seven times as efficient at using energy as an equivalently loaded diesel bus, due to the difference between rolling resistance of steel-wheel-on-steel-rail and rubber tyres on tarmac, improved drive efficiency and lower weight.
'Generation-to-motor efficiency of electric trains is an estimated 80%, compared with batteries at around 65% and diesel or hydrogen at 25%.'

The pdf found here has a lot more info on it, it does focus on 25kV AC OHLE over other types.
>https://ocs4rail.com/downloads/

>>2057755
>Genuinely makes me wonder if they could replicate that success by introducing this concept to other large cities.
If someone manages to unclench the iron fist of the Treasury and stop the ORR from goldplating everything and dithering for decades, then maybe.

>>2057741
The Orange Army marches on. WCML trains back running again.