Keep in mind this is for bikes meant to be loaded up. I guess a marketing exec at some point decided kickstands are for poors so no expensive bike can have them now, just like MTBs got stuck with Presta valves.

They will literally drill 15+ holes just in case your bike bags use bottle bosses instead of straps, but outright refuse drilling 2 for a kickstand

Inb4 I know kickstands aren't mounted on bottle bosses. The wonky subject title is the consequence of having to rework it over and over until it wasn't under the text limit.

>>2046974 (OP)
you do know kickstands aren't mounted on bottle bosses right?

I really do not think disc brakes and derailleurs make any sense if you're going to put a kickstand on it, since both of those things can get bent out of shape by bike racks, which you'll be using a lot of if you're a kickstand kind of guy

>>2046979
>disc brakes and derailleurs can get bent out of shape by bike racks
I genuinely can't tell if this is a troll or a retard.

>>2046987
Are you referring to yourself? What part of this looks like it would be good for your disc rotor, or your derailleur hanger if you were to park it in reverse?

>>2046988
Maybe an issue with 26" wheels, I wouldn't know. If I see this kind of rack, I'm usually looking for a nearest tree, fence or road sign anyway. Can't secure the frame properly in there.

>>2046974 (OP)
Daily reminder that kickstands are most superfluous and useless.

>>2046974 (OP)
Forget about bottles and kickstands, how would someone ride this pedal-less piece of crap?

>>2046974 (OP)
>kickstand
Are you actually riding your bike or just leaving it standing somewhere all the time?
Just use a tree a wall or the ground.
Autism thread.

>>2047002
>>2047016
Not if you use your bike for actual transportation. If you are one of those faggots that drive their bike to a place where they will ride it and then drive it back, then of course it's useless. Try fiddling with commuter/bikepacker/tourer bags without one and you'll quickly realise why they exist.

>>2047020
LMAO
I have refused making use of any sort of motorized transport, including degeneracy such as trains, for the better part of a decade now. I bike and walk everywhere.
First thing I took off my bicycle is the kickstand.
I have said it before and will say it again:
You always find something to lean your bike against. And if you really find yourself in an odd place where there is nothing to lean against for miles (sand desert maybe?) you might aswell lay her down. Because that's what eventually happens when you use a kickstand anyways. Just not in a violent manner.
>if you use your bike for actual transportation
You will soon realise kickstands are superfluous and useless.
Because once you load your bike up just lightly they will fail to hold it up anyways.
For a kickstand to work you need:
Solid ground, correct angle, unloaded bike, no wind.
>inb4 muddy grips
Find something to lean against. Your fucking kickstand will sink in anyways whrn conditions are muddy.
>Inb4 muddy conditions and nothing to lean at for miles.
Guess you got to bite the bullet just once in a lifetime.
>picrel
Look faggot no kickstand when I was using my bicycle for actual transportation, yesterday, like everyday.
Fucking motorist faggot.

>>2047020
I commute with my bice, a 35-45km total trip
I dont have a kickstand, I lean it against a wall, and if no wall, you can always use the pedals (pic rel)

and arent most kickstands not suitable for touring cus they cant hold the weight?

>>2047022
>you load your bike up just lightly they will fail to hold it up anyways
Bad kickstand or bad installation. More likely, though, is that you never even tried one.
>For a kickstand to work you need:
Solid ground, correct angle, unloaded bike, no wind.
Only no. 2. And, again, if you think wind is enough to kick over a loaded bike, you obviously never used one.
>Fucking motorist faggot.
Ad hominems are an obvious sign of a person in the wrong. I accept your concession. I have never operated a motorised vehicle, btw.

>>2047023
>and arent most kickstands not suitable for touring cus they cant hold the weight?
Typical kickstand can carry 25 kg. A good one like Pletscher makes will get you 50 kg.

>>2047022
Holy based homeless bike schizo

>>2047025
Why is this board constantly borderlining between 'Reeee you're not a real cyclist' and 'Reee you are poor'. I am definately not poor. Let alone homeless. Quite the opposite.
Idk how many discussions of that kind I had on this board where someone would first claim that somehow they can't make do without a car also they were rich hence they owned a nice car and I would use one if I had the means to. When I then tell them I not only easily have the means to but even have property on a scale that you may perceive as indecent they will claim they do not believe me. When I prove to them it is the case (idk even why I have a burden of proof or how it furthers the discussion) they immediately switch from 'you're poor' to 'you simply can afford to be a moralizing asshole as you never need to be anywhere on time, time is money im too poor to afford as much time as you etc.'
Funny enough I work a job and fucking vommute ~30 km.
Why can some people just not accept that people exist who consider their actions, think, draw conclusions and live by the result of their dialectic. Could it be that those types have a functioning moral compass but are too lazy to be an idealist and as a result feel unwell when someone is different so they demand everyone must just be like them: Able to tell right from wrong but choose the comfortable way regardless?
It's a bit annoying.

>>2047025
Sorry didn't mean that personal. in any way btw. in case it comes over like that.

>>2047026
Those pannier baskets you have look cool. Do you know the manufacturer? Tried googling un*x but came up short.

>>2047032
https://www.unix-baskets.de/
I have mixed feelings about them but after going through a long series of various solutions I arrived here.
I think they need a better mechanism to prevent the bottom from bouncing up, unlatching and dropping out when lightly loaded. A heavy load rectifies it. I just put a string in to prevent it from falling through.
Also part of my purchasing decision was the unix meme because of my background in tech.

>>2047034
I see. Thanks, man.

>>2047042
To be clear since it might be misleading: I arrived at the baskets. Picrel was one of the things I tried.

>>2047043
I figured the baskets were the latest one. I'm currently at the trunkbag phase myself. It annoys the fuck out of me how it wnats to lean to one side all the time. It's gotten so bad that I'm now usig ratchet straps to keep it in place, which really defeats the purpose.

>>2047046
What annoyed me the most was that with panniers or such you have to be mindful when outting particularly sharp things inside and also, even with leaving the bike only ever under shelter, daily riding in rain might well mean you're developing a new kind of ecosystem in there during the wet season.
I also found the baskets so far provide the best support for oversized loads on the rack.
If I out something on the rack like the 65L bag in picrel I find myself using the baskets, even when empty, to have more of a platform.

>>2047048
Interesting how you use it to support voluminous loads.

>daily riding in rain might well mean you're developing a new kind of ecosystem in there during the wet season
This is with waterproof panniers, I assume? Is it condensation or what?

>>2047055
I never could quite put a finger on it but it didnt matter to me in the end anyways. By some means water gets in (condensation, spray, rain, opening to grab sth. real quick, putting wet items in... idk) and doesn't really dry out again any time soon. So if youre like me and leave panniers on the bike and leave random things in them you might find it turns out like that. Just permadamp.
Why I dont leave things in the baskets? Just put essentials in a bag you throw in the basket, and take inside. It's better than taking the disgusting panniers off and inside every day.

>>2047022
You're homeless.

>>2047022
>using any machine for transport
just admit you're a fat fuck who can't walk lmao

>>2047097
I have zero problems with machines. In fact I love machines. I disapprove of being lazy and lacking resilience and I disapprove of leading energy intensive lifestyles, as any individual using more energy than the global supply of renewables divided by the number of people in existence means being ultimately responsible for consumption of fossil fuels - with all its ugly consequences like poisoning people, global warming, propping totalitarian regimes etc. and cagers in particularly are just vile but thats an entirely different conversation.
>>2047094
You're a homosexual negro.

>>2047098
cool obesebabble

>>2046974 (OP)
Bottle mounts are important
Stay hydrated fellas

>>2047002
I like mine, it's handy sometimes c^:

Non issue you can use a plate between the chain stays in lieu of the bracket

>>2047111
this is also the only type of stand that actually makes sense, for loaded tourers or shopping bikes.

it's so great this person simply got three

>>2047111
>>2047112
Those aren't as secure (because it's essentialy a clamp) and may even void your warranty. They also can fuck with cranks (if poorly designed) and tire clearance, which is really important for a tourer/bikepacker. They also just aren't compatible with some frames. If manufacturers bothered to drill proper mounting holes there, they would be fine.

I just think a couple of 18 or 40 mm holes on the chainstay and/or a proper one near the BB should be standard on these kinds of bikes, simply to provide an option to mount one. It's not like most people buying these bikes use all those bottle bosses either. We can argue about using or not using a kickstand all day, but I really don't see why anyone would be against having an option.

>>2047124
>Those aren't as secure
Yes they are

>>2047064
Can't you put a bunch of silica bags in there?

>>2047129
I guess but you'd need to regularly. bake them and at some point you're just solving problems that don't need to be.
I just want stuff that works and does not need tinkering.
It's the same reason why I gravitate towards that very bike. Every morning I get up and have the choice between all my bikes. That one just works, it never let me down, so it always forms a habit where I just grab that one. It's slow asf, schwalbe air+ tubes in marathons, hub dynamo and IGH. But it always has air, there is never anything wrong with it. And I want my transport solution to be just like that too.
I mean imagine fiddling with 20 different elastic straps to affix various individual items to every tube of your frame.

>>2047167
Simple trick: keep them open while you aren't riding.

>>2047179
Doesn't work if you keep things inside that might agaib trap moisture underneath.
But honestly: Enough people got panniers on their daily. Works for them. I just shared my view and choice and am not to keen debating it ad infinitum.

>>2047032
not him but Wald and Sunlite also make them. I have Wald. I love them except they weigh quite a bit

>>2046974 (OP)
most kickstands are not suitable for an off road bike.
and the single legged stands are rendered ineffective by a light breeze.
>>2047111
>side note
Bottom bracket heights are completely random
>.t had to sort though a massive pile of kickstands to find ones the right length
>>2047119
kek

>keep bike outside under awning next to car with wife's bike
>add a cover cause sometimes it gets really rainy
>wife just stop her bike, flicks the stand and shes done
>meanwhile im trying to find somewhere to lean my bike where it won't fall over and also not get rained on

is there a solution here that isn't a stand?

>>2047520
>tfw jamming the rear tire into an oil column heater
it just works

>>2047519
>most kickstands are not suitable for an off road bike
You could say the same about rear racks and fenders, yet they come with mounts for those pre-drilled. And I'm talking about touring bikes here too. Not a single Sutra model has kickstand mounts, for example.
>Bottom bracket heights are completely random
Most good stands come too long and assume you're familiar with a hacksaw. BB mounts are only good if double, though. Single legged ones are worse than chainstay ones by quite a bit.
>>2047520
There is, but the only reason to do it any other way would be sheer stubborness.

>>2047524
The factory provided mpunting holes are here:
>>2047119
.
You lost your argument. The factory kick stand mounting holes do exist.
The things still suck ass tho.

>>2047525
Learn to use the reply function.

>1by
>dick brakes
>le functional steel bike
:)

>>2047026
noone on this board actually rides bikes they just parrot what they heard on gcn/random niche bike channel

>>2047588
>the reply function
tHe RePlY fUnCtIoN
funny way to ask for a (You).

I don’t own a bicycle, just think they’re neat, I’m a motorcyclist, so wondering if they don’t make bicycle center stands like they do for motorcycles? I’ve plenty of times had to do chain maintenance on my center stand on a long tour and I’d imagine you have to also for a bicycle? seems convenient

>>2047622
They do make them. They usually do not come standard.

>>2046977
I cant believe this got ignored

>>2047664
IMO the funniest thing IMO is:
I've posted two bikes ITT that have specific kickstand attachement points from the factory. I'll admit one of them doesn't show it on pictures but the other one does.
Thus the entire premise of this thread
>outright refuse drilling two for a kickstand
is debunked.
They do drill two holes for a kickstand. In the more common configuration they actually drill one hole as one hole in the bridge behind the BB is all a kickstand needs.
Maybe OP is just inept and struggles finding and choosing the bikes OP is looking for. /bqg/ can help with that.

>>2047667
Hang on, you actually think the point was that there isn't a single bike with kickstand mounts pre-drilled? Lol how dumb are you?

>>2047781
>They will literally drill 15+ holes just in case your bike bags use bottle bosses instead of straps, but outright refuse drilling 2 for a kickstand
Also using straps for bottles. The whole thread is a meme intended to bait as many as possible.

>>2047793
>Also using straps for bottles.
???

>>2047821
reminder that people like
>picrel
are not normal

>>2047834
what nobody shows you with these getups is when you don't tighten down one of the straps properly and the bottle gets sucked into your front wheel and you crash and break your neck

the ultraromance larping has gone too far

>>2047834
>>2047836
Tbh, that's probably the answer to the question. These bikes are supposedly made for bikepacking and/or touring, but what most of their customers care more about than practicality is this kind of jury-rigged aesthetics so they can use their rigs to attention whore on Instagram. A fuckton of bosses can contribute to these aesthetics, but kickstands don't because they aren't photogenic.

>>2047836
NOOOO YOU DONT UNDERSTAND I CAN NOT HAVE BOTTLE CAGES AND A RACK AND PANNIERS!!! I need a bicycle devoid of mounting points, I need to niggerrig all my gear to it using all sorts of ropes and bungees and my bailthin is so much more aero like tanwall tires are just more comfortable than poor people black tires.

>>2047839
>>2047840
most weekends I go on a long ride on a popular bike path that heads out of my city for hundreds of miles. I never go less than ~30 miles out, sometimes up to 60 if I'm feeling energetic, of course I am not going to overnight it out there so I turn around so I can get home before dark

on nicer days (sunny, light to no breeze, between 65 and 80 F) I see tons of groups with these kinds of grabble adventure bikes. bunch of skinnyfats on mad max getups, photogenically mismatched bags from indie bag makers, designer water bottles, space age bungee cords, and of course designer tanwall tires, they've got to have enough storage capacity to cross half a continent unsupported

what's in the bags? I have no idea. you'd think they'd be bikepacking, camping or something? but the thing is, I basically never see them once I get more than 30 miles out from the city, so what are they even doing?

obvious answer: instagram

>>2047847
I seen the funny straps in the LBS once. For the price of one or two funky elastomer belts you can buy a rack by racktime.
>>2047836
Would be funny af to see some nalgene get sucked up and basedboy larper fly.

>>2047839
>>2047840
why are you people so upset at something you clearly have zero experience with?
i've toured extensively on both a standard touring setup and a "standard" bikepacking setup and they both have their place. the other guy you're all calling a hobo is entirely correct about kickstands though they are just dead weight - find a wall or lay it down. or use it if you really like it but there's really no need or want (market) for them hence why they are disappearing
>>2047847
maybe you are just not out in nature enough anon

>>2047854
>upset at something you clearly have zero experience with
What experience? I ride my bike. I rode it without a kickstand and I rode it with one. I far preferred the latter.
>the other guy you're all calling a hobo is entirely correct
The "hobo" (I didn't call him that BTW) is a commuter. What makes his experience more valid than mine? Nothing. Except he agrees with you.
>they are just dead weight
My kickstand supports 35 kg, weights 365g and costs 18€. Just the fact that you mention weight in the first place is telling me all I need to know about you.

The real question is why all the rest of you are so against THE OPTION OF HAVING ONE that proper mounts provide.

>>2047854
This is an anonymous image board, sir.
I have not called anyone a hobo ITT but have been called a hobo ITT.
Now that two people, presumably everyone that got a (You) from (You), have denied calling anyone a hobo ITT, your comment seems to make even less sense. Go to reddit or tripfag if you like to have usernames.
>Zero experience
I've ridden a 'bike packer' bike. Just like I've used kickstands. I would'nt have an opinion about either, much less any motivation to discuss them if I had not.
But thanks to (You) for saying I'm correct, I guess.
>Not outside enough
DESU this entire board, at least the cycling side of it, appears to me to be filled with larpers, cityfags, freds and especially people with reduced cognitive abilities. But mostly people who hardly ever ride and instead like to discuss them fictionally riding, once (tool fallacy).

>>2047840
He has a bottle cage tho
You have to use straps because it's an oversized steel bottle

>>2047921
It is the premise of the thread that allegedly bicycles in general came with no attachement points for kickstands but many bottle bosses in case someone wanted to screw on bags and not just use straps.

>>2047863
>>2047919
>you're all
as in im grouping everyone whining about kickstands, not "you two" specifically
>>2047863
if you actually do any bikepacking in non-flat areas you would realize 365g is actually plenty, especially for something that has very little use in that context. just buy some hybrid? why are you so upset about a niche bike type not having bolts where they make no sense for that niche? just buy a hybrid or a standard touring bike - what's the problem?
>>2047919
if you would've used one in the context they're intended for you would not have typed one of the top two posts i was replying to because it clearly shows that you don't understand why it makes sense to put stuff on your bike like that (and why that bike wouldn't make sense in a context where a kickstand would make sense)

>>2047924
>tags two people specifically
>you people
>goes on to assume things like others lack or extent of experience based on nothing (snowman)
>you're all
>I'm grouping everyone not "you two"
>you're calling a hobo
so everyone collectively is calling someone a hobo except for the two commenters gagged specifically as a standin for 'everyone'
understandable Sir, have a good day
no honestly my man. There is a very obvious problem with (You)s. In case you didn't notice: This is an anonymous image board in lieu of Futaba / 2ch. The origin of the anonymity part isn't entirely by chance but has a valid basis in issues commonly observed in dialectics. (You)s do not further the discussion and are not arguments either. (You) seem to be insisting strongly on producing nothing but (erroneous) (You)s.
>if you actually do
>non flat areas
>would realize
>would've used
So many assumptions. So many poor, obvious and repeated attempts at discrediting others in the style of "(You)'re all not real cyclists I'm the only one permanently cycling actually long distances in non flat terrain etc. etc"
Go ahead do more of that. It is not a valid argument neither does it help the discussion along. It's almost as if you only came here for confirmation or approval. Why? If you want confirmation write a letter to (You)rself.
Honestly if someone trained an AI on /n/ it would only produce responses like: "You have no idea because you never ride your bike and if you ever do you only do so on weekends, in the city, over short distances, on perfectly flat and smooth roads, with no traffic, and no luggague, in fair weather, at slow pace... UNLIKE MEEEEE REEEEEE hence only my assessment of anything cycling related can be correct."

>>2047926
i understand the confusion, hence the clarification. relax friend
>So many assumptions
will you actually read the rest of the post instead of just being whining. it does not make sense to whine on the lack of kickstand mounts on a bikepacking specific bike as they make no sense for the niche they are designed for. do you really think they do? will you explain why instead of just screaming at strawmen in every single post for 15 lines?
i really cannot fathom why you're so angry about this for any other reason than that you don't really understand what the "instagram" bike or the OP one is actually used for. in that context, 365 g is a lot, you're not gonna lean it on sand, they might be trouble on rough terrain like roots etc and it's another part being able to break when you're far out. again:
>there's really no need or want (market) for them hence why they are disappearing
again why do you so desperately need them on these bikes? why not just get a standard touring bike or a hybrid?

>>2047854
So they just jump-drive teleported out to nature after about 30 miles? Seems plausible.

>>2047927
It should be obvious that my response >>2047926 was only written after reading and thinking through >>2047924 since the quotation
>if you would've used
is found towards the bottom of that comment.
The entire thing picked up on (lack of) dialectics and reasoning and the repeated use of various pseudo-arguments.
All of those things find perfect continuation in >>2047927.
Including the wild assumptions. If that is not on purpose for some sort of unrelatable satisfaction it seems to rather point at a ironic lack of 'acrually reading the thread' while simultaneously making logically meaningless assumptions about which posts are by the same entity.
>>2047926 contains not one evalutation of kickstands.
>whine on the lack of kickstands
>do you really think they do
Theres the (You). Thank (You) so much.
Now the irony lies probably that I can tell the guy who posted >>2047926 is one of the commentators if not the one commentator most opposed to the notion of kickstands in general and any context. Throughout the thread. I can tell that because that is me and that is about the only thing I can tell about the entity behind any of the commentary ITT and this is by design. Maybe consider that.
How ironic.
Please. Kill yourself ASAP.

>>2047927
>365 g is a lot, you're not gonna lean it on sand, they might be trouble on rough terrain like roots etc and it's another part being able to break when you're far out. again:

It weighs 365 g because I specifically picked one intended for e-bikes that can hold my 10-15 kg grocery haul + my bike (I don't have a rebranded moped myself). If I were to choose for some hypothetical ultralight bikepacking setup, I could choose another, though I'm not the type to count grams.

It also has a wide foot because, believe it or not, there are indeed people who take them outside the city as well. As for the rough terrain and "another part to break" nonsense, you might as well not bring a rear derailleur if you find yourself constantly bumping the chainstay. Saves more weight, too.

>there's really no need or want (market) for them hence why they are disappearing

They aren't, though. E-bikes made them more popular then ever before. Besides, if they are supposedly disappearing, why would that be the case? Nothing's changed to warrant their supposed disappearance.

>get a standard touring bike

They don't come with kickstand mounts either. That's the fucking point. Marin Four Corners, Kona Sutra, Trek 520; none of the classic touring bike recommendations have them.

Again, this is not about whether one should or shouldn't use one. It's about having the option. And having the option, on bikes meant to be loaded up, really shouldn't be this controversial. Clamps can and do damage frames. A proper mount can only ever get sheared.

>>2047939
allright meta-papi see you in the next thread, thanks for the friendly chat
>>2047946
>As for the rough terrain and "another part to break" nonsense, you might as well not bring a rear derailleur if you find yourself constantly bumping the chainstay
well i'd get a rohloff if I could afford one but you cant think this is a reasonable comparison seen to usefulness?
>Nothing's changed to warrant their supposed disappearance.
it's another manufacturing cost (probably neglible to the consumer idk) that's not marketable. i'm not saying they SHOULD disappear just that it makes sense they do
>e-bikes
wildly different user base. e-bikes are just the new hybrids of '05-'15.
>Marin Four Corners, Kona Sutra, Trek 520; none of the classic touring bike recommendations have them.
well shit that's very suprising, really thought they still do sorry. but wouldn't that just be further proof of zero demand in this niche? very niche wants in an already niche market usually means custom/off solutions

Why are you faggots so butthurt about everything

>>2047983
>you cant think this is a reasonable comparison seen to usefulness

It's a reasonable comparison in terms of how often do you bump the thing. A kickstand is far simpler than a derailleur, so while it may not be as important, it's also not as fragile.

>it's another manufacturing cost

These bikes aren't exactly specced for 500€ or something. I find it hard to believe mounts made sense to include 15 years ago but not now. It seems more likely to me they evolved from sporty road bikes which never had them in the first place, but that's just a working theory of mine. I didn't really pay attention back then, though.

>i'm not saying they SHOULD disappear
Then we're kinda arguing over nothing. I really just want the option. I don't want one on every bike or any bike to even come with one included.

>wildly different user base
Yea, but same standard (KSA 18 and 40 mm). And you're right in that most e-bikes are basically hybrids, which is probably why they have the mounts in the first place. Still, there is a wider selection of actually good kickstands now than probably ever before. So it's not really the kickstand that is dying. The mounts are, maybe.

>but wouldn't that just be further proof of zero demand in this niche?
You'll find a ton of people online asking about kickstand options for these bikes. There's really no way to know how the absence of proper mounts influences sales, especially since so few bikes actually have them so those who explicitly want mounts don't really have anywhere to go. That Koga anon sent, for example, is a 2500€ flat-bar tourer. You're not gonna buy it just for the kickstands. You need to like the whole package and, for most people looking for a tourer, the flat bars alone are a turn-off.

>>2047991
Congrats, anon, you found one bike that ships with two of them. Clearly, this settles the whole discussion.

>>2047998
>ships with two of them
two of them AND the 15 bottle cage bosses you'll find on social media touring larpers bikes that OP alluded to

>>2046990
Shit flinging aside as someone with all 26” bikes, yeah, half height racks are an issue, they do bend rotors.
If you have to alternate bikes forward and backward side by side then 26” with a long cage derailleur and disc brakes straight up cannot go rear wheel first into them
I did not have as many issues with the front wheel and the rotor bending, but they do touch some racks

I kind of agree that bikes which are meant to be kitted out with a lot of bags and racks and stuff just should have kickstand mounts of some variety, even an old chainstay well single bolt one would do. Cargo bikes have this down, a bikepacking rig is just a light cargo bike really.

>>2048141
I don't see the point when you can just mount a kick stand to the rack like >>2047991 which is more stable anyway
Tubus make a stand that is specific to the their front carrier

>>2048170
That can't be your only kickstand. A front one only ever makes sense if you already have one in the back.

ok, but who are "they"??

>>2048179
>trying to reason with kickstand fags
kek
>>2048273
some manufacturers, at least when it comes to some models, probably models that OP obsesses about since sovial media and whatnot has limited OPs perception to tunnel vision and now OP refuses to acknowledge that his tunnel vision does not provide an accurate general view

>>2048309
>trying to reason with kickstand fags

Who's this even intended for?

>some manufacturers, at least when it comes to some models, probably models that OP obsesses about since sovial media and whatnot has limited OPs perception to tunnel vision and now OP refuses to acknowledge that his tunnel vision does not provide an accurate general view

Interesting. Do you have a bike or two for an example? Remember, we're looking for bikepacking and touring bikes with kickstand mounts. The Koga anon provided an example, as unorthodox as it was.

>>2048354

>>2048363

>>2048365

>>2048367

>>2048363
Topkek. He sends Kona Dew. Lmao. That's a commuter through and through. A steel frame does not a long haul bike make.

>>2048365
That's a nice Surly. Not a Grappler and not a Disc Trucker, though. I'm gonna guess Bridge Club, which they say is "Light bikepacking - Doubletrack - Commuter". A bit below the Koga, I'd say. Unorthodox, but technically meets the requirements. They clearly have other bikes in the range meant for classic tourer, gravel bike and drop bar MTB roles, though, and none of those come with kickstand mounts. No one looking at, say, a Disc Trucker is gonna take the Bridge Club instead.

>>2048367
>>2048371
Can't tell these ones at first glance. List manufacturer and model if you want me to comment on them. I'm curious if either of the two are actual travel bikes.