Thread 2050008

Haven't EV buses essentially rendered trolleybuses obsolete? They have all the benefits of electrification with the flexibility of ICE buses, lower infrastructure costs, and cities don't have to deal with the visual pollution caused by trolley wires.
It seems to me that the only places for trolleybuses in the modern era are extremely cold and hilly regions, where the battery of an electric bus might not be able to keep up.

>>2050008 (OP)
>the visual pollution caused by trolley wires
Meanwhile ads, graffiti, trash and worse are everywhere. Not buying that wires make a city any worse.

>>2050010
Apples and oranges. Cities can clean up their trash any time they like, but a trolleybus network makes it impossible to unclutter the skyline.

>>2050013
>Cities can clean up their trash any time they like
They just don't, right

>>2050014
This but unironically.

>>2050008 (OP)
>visual pollution caused by trolley wires

>>2050008 (OP)
Trolleybuses have been obsolete since the 70s, when diesel buses became good enough also for challenging inclines (only thing keeping them alive for a while in my hometown were 12% hills the diesels struggled with)
The wires being ugly is one thing, but really their cost negates the fuel savings quite effectively, and restricts their use to high-demand lines most systems don't even have.
>It seems to me that the only places for trolleybuses in the modern era are extremely cold and hilly regions, where the battery of an electric bus might not be able to keep up.
Even there, it's more likely that battery buses will be used with quick-charging stations at some planned longer stops. Cologne does that already, using a little pantograph. It's just way cheaper in terms of infrastructure and doesn't have as many operational constraints.

>>2050008 (OP)
No, e-buses have rendered regular diesel city buses obsolete. Trolleybuses are still more efficient, safer and much cheaper to run. The buy-in cost is more expensive because of the infrastructure, but rolling stock is cheaper, not reliant on China and is almost tram-tier reliable and long-lasting.
In the end, I think a trolleybus with a small battery for flexibility and jumping between lines is the ideal solution for cities that already have trolleybus infrastructure, and a better long-term solution than pure e-buses for cities that don't. Worst case scenario if battery goes kaput, it reverts to just a trolleybus and can serve mainline routes that don't stray from the wires while waiting for a replacement, instead of being stuck in the depot.

>>2050036
Battery trolleybuses exist, and are indeed quite convenient.

These Edwardianpunk storage battery powered streetcars were used in Manhattan on light traffic lines.

>>2050008 (OP)
EV charging requires a lot more logistics and planning, its not an alternative

>>2050008 (OP)
Most places that use electric busses, use busses that can connect and run on battery.

>>2050034
we kept the system because of the oil crisis in the 70s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzVb87IAS_o

>>2050010
ban those too?

>>2050008 (OP)
E-buses are better simply by virtue of not having to deal with dewiring. There's nothing more frustrating than an entire intersection coming to a halt until the driver puts up the poles again.

>>2050060
Start with those, when they're all gone we can talk about the wires

>>2050063
>you can't solve any visual pollution problem until you've solved all other visual pollution problems
holy catch 22

>>2050064
Yes

>>2050067
How do you solve any problem at all, then? If you try to ban advertisements, the same argument applies (trolley wires and graffiti is still out there) and the same argument also applies to graffitti.

So in your world we just don't solve uglyness in the city?

>>2050070
No, we get rid of real ugliness: Ads, graffiti, litter, vandalism, bums.

Holy shit stop with this retarded meme that trolleybus wires are "visual pollution". They're barely even visible, they aren't more visual pollution than traffic lights or trashcans ffs.
Look at pic related and tell me with a straight face that the trolley wires cause any relevant visual pollution.

>>2050074
..., and trolley cables

>>2050079
Nah they're no big deal

>>2050064
Solve the shit that's already illegal and has a net negative impact, and then start tackling shit that works just fine, even if it's outdated.

>>2050062
Where I live the buses have a backup battery, so they just keep driving until the next stop and re-attach the poles there.

Battery bus charging poles cause much worse visual pollution

>>2050008 (OP)
3 NIGGAS IN DA BUS GO ROUND AND ROUND, ROUND AND ROUND, ROUND AND ROUND

>>2050008 (OP)
>Lithium mining intensifies

EV buses would be great if the companies making them don't go bankrupt and end up leaving you with a fleet of unreliable vehicles and no reliable way to get replacement parts.

>>2050125
>bus headed for the cemetery parks under the gallows
poetry

>>2050157
The vast majority of EV buses are made by legacy manufacturers, though. There is literally no chance that VDL, Volvo, or MAN go bankrupt.

>>2050008 (OP)
Well,
>new trolleybus systems are almost nonexistent
>old trolleybus systems across the world are being shut down in favor of E-buses
I'd say the answer is pretty obvious

>>2050008 (OP)
Batteries that hold enough charge to run a bus for a day are very expensive. If you put a few wires up you can charge as you go, halving the cost of the bus.

>>2050060
>ban those too?
>ban grafitti
Das rayciss

>visible wires in a public space
Visual pollution, outdated infrastructure, possible hazard
>visible wires in a public space, Japan
Clever solution to a natural problem, aesthetics, SOVL

>>2050238
Yes because there has never, ever been a rush towards a new tech just because its new, even if the previous infrastructure was fine if not better. That just doesn't happen. Especially when it comes to public transit.

Ironically, trolleybuses are much more environmentally friendly than battery busses
I dare say battery buses are closer to combustion buses than to trolleybuses as far as total environmental impact. Maybe even the same or worse.

>>2050075
Anon you might be blind.

trolley on a track is better

>>2050932
I believe they're removing or readjusting those cables in some places now

>>2051269
Anon you might be coping

>>2051446
Coping about what?
Why do you retards use words you don't understand?
The scene posted would look far better without the ugly cables. There's no disputing it.
The person pretending those cables don't mar the view is the one invested in the false reality, the one who needs to -cope-.

>>2051464
You are aware that part of those cables are for street lamps and not for the trolleybus? They string them up like that to avoid lampposts. Without the trolleybus they'd still be there. So this is merely about the trolleybus wires.
In any case you are literally retarded if you think those wires are even barely a visual impact while >>2050125 isn't infinitely worse.

>>2051478
The streetlamps look terrible also.
You seem to be under the mistaken assumption that I'm just some kind of anti-transit zealot when I'll I'm doing is pointing out idiotic claims.
>while >>2050125 isn't infinitely worse.
Why are tards on /n/ so incapable of making reasonable points?
Comparing those two images, the the main reason the "bus charging poles" picture looks terrible is because it's full of concrete and busses. Because it's a fucking bus charging station, vs a cherry-picked art photo of a shopping district in a historic city center, paved with cobblestones and featuring the Zähringerbrunnen and Zytglogge in the background.

Here's a random streetview shot of stone-paved shopping street in Prague. You can see one cable over the street, but no matrix of trolly cables over everything (and the street lamps are traditionally artful lamp posts).

>>2051495
>>2051496
I'm afraid you have seen nothing

>>2051527
Still less intrusive than graffiti, ads, and trash

>>2051527
This is now a cable kino thread

>>2051528
I'm not the other poster. Personally they never bothered me, just found those examples funny

>>2051528
I am the other poster, and won't argue with that.

>>2051589
You have neither taste nor intelligence.

>>2050008 (OP)
>EV
My city is currently buying Solaris Urbino 12 Hydrogen busses like they're hotcakes. Look something like pic rel.
Anyways, those things have a kick (instantaneous 600 hp) and when they were being first introduced you would fall over when they were going because the bus drivers would floor the pedal from standstill out of habit.
Things have cooled down in terms of face planting, but those things don't rumble, they don't make any loud noises just a small electric hum, you can actually talk to people when sitting inside, you don't hear them approaching. It's very nice. The only real gripe I have with these busses is the fucking loops that hang off of the handrails are too low and if you're not careful they'll swing, bump into your head and transfer ungodly amounts of smegma onto your face (people here are allergic to washing their hands).

Captcha: NG884

>>2050010
>Meanwhile ads, graffiti, trash and worse are everywhere. Not buying that wires make a city any worse.
Live uninsulated high voltage power lines are inherently dangerous in any city with narrow sidewalks and bus routes down those streets.
The power lines are way to close to residential buildings like houses and apartment buildings, leading to way to high of a risk of electrocution for contractors or homeowners doing work, or hanging seasonal decorations.
Fiberglass ladders and scaffolding exists, but costs way mire than aluminum, and still doesn’t remove all the safety issues.

>>2050074
>No, we get rid of real ugliness: Ads, graffiti, litter, vandalism, bums.
Bicyclists should also be eliminated.

>>2051901
The problem with these is that hydrogen is unsustainable as fuck. It's almost as bad as oil.

>>2051904
Oh here comes Safety Sally with a problem for every solution

>>2051924
>Oh here comes Safety Sally with a problem for every solution
Electrified buses would be fine on wide public roads, with wide sidewalks, which run next to public parks, or maybe highways, or large commercial buildings.
In the city I live in they used to have the buses running down relatively narrow residential streets.
The power lines were way to close to people’s houses, creating major safety issues.
99+% of the residents were glad when the power lines were removed, and the lines changed to regular buses.
The city also tried battery powered buses, but pulled the buses from service after a few months or less, because the bus frames were cracking, and the manufacturer had blatantly lied about range per battery charge.
Since being pulled from service, a bunch of the buses have caught on fire.
The whole thing cost the transit agency millions of dollars.
Meanwhile, the Hybrid busses have been fine for decades, and only sort of sucked with the first hybrid bus models purchased.

>>2052062
>The transit agency ended up wasting a bunch of money because I felt unsafe
>t. Safety Sally

>>2051922
Only with current conditions. Due to the nature of renewables as an electricity source, they need to build a fuck load of excess capacity if they are going to totally remove carbon fuel sources. All that excess capacity is going to be a large cost center if it can't sell energy into the grid. A way to defray those fixed costs is to throw the excess energy into electrolysis.

>>2052214
nta but I thought the issue with these things had more to do with the scarcity of platinum-group metals rather than grid constraints. That is, the only viable technology we have depends on PGMs and scaling that up would eventually be enough to compete with other industrial uses for PGMs and create a price problem. Or is my information out of date?

>>2052333
I didn't know tesla made buses now

>>2052333
Surely there has to be a better place for the battery than right in the middle of the top? How the fuck are you supposed to get out of there without running through molten battery rain.

>>2052356
Would you rather lithium doom volcano be under the floor?

>>2052390
What about on top but more towards the back so people can still possibly get out the front

>>2052333
As soon as I saw the video, I hoped it was a battery explosion. Less dramatic than I expected but still cool.

>>2050008 (OP)
Combination of two can charge mid-ride and have smaller battery but also can go off-grid for a bit, making wire planning easier.

>>2050008 (OP)
This debate ended as soon as battery trolleybuses became a viable option. There's nothing that beats them