Thread 28483884

Alright /o/, I want a V10 to add to my garage. I will only drive the car every now and then as it will be a second car and not my daily. From a value perspective, do you guys think a decent E60 M5 will hoid value better than an a decent E63, considering the M5 is more famous and well known? I've driven both and the driving feel is better in the M6, but I am worried about long term value retention. My goal with the car is to have fun but for it to slowly appreciate in value.

I know the E60/E63 M cars are maintenance nightmares, so my plan is to buy a well sorted mid mileage example (50k to 85k miles) and own it for at least 5 to 10 years. I can do light wrenching, but I will rely on a local BMW indy to do any heavy work.

Am I retarded for considering this? My daily is an LS430 btw so I'm not worried about reliability to get to work.

I see guys own these for 2 years and then they give up.

>>28483908
I know the car has a reputation for bankrupting people and ripping apart families, but I've had E60/E63 owners tell me that a lot of it is due to not doing preventative maintenance on normal wear items like vanos pumps, rod bearings, throttle actuators, and changing the oil every 2k miles.

I was told to budget about $10k a year for maintenance, which is doable.

Better hurry up, before the spic dropout shows up and starts rambling something about civics.

>>28483884 (OP)
>do you guys think a decent E60 M5 will hoid value better than an a decent E63
Yes, nobody like e63's. m6 prices reflect that.

>>28483976
Yeah, but I feel like the E63 M6 might be a future classic for that reason. Not very many people like them, most are neglected to shit, and the few that remain will slowly rise in value due to the V10. It also drives a bit better. I already own a sedan too.

>>28483884 (OP)
>My goal with the car is to have fun but for it to slowly appreciate in value.
I'm just some nobody to you but I wouldn't expect either car to appreciate faster than inflation unless you get some ultra-low mile car and scarcely drive it.

>>28483993
It won't be. It's too ugly and requires too much work to be reliable

>>28484006
I'm banking on the majority of the higher mileage examples being trashed and totaled over the next few years out due to maintenance costs. Both the M5/M6 seem to have a price floor of about $13k for a running example, no matter how many miles, with super low mileage (sub 20k) cars going for $30k+ and cars in between (50k+ miles) going for around $20k or so, with a slight premium to the M5.
>>28484009
But don't you think the novelty of being the only BMW V10 and lowers numbers made compared to the M5 will combine to produce a higher appreciation in price?

>>28483993
>Not very many people like them
well, yeah...

>>28484019
The manual M6's are going to be the only ones that hold value. There's only 697 of them.

>>28483884 (OP)
Imagine owning used bmw

>>28483993
>a future classic
>$150k bmw that went to $15k within 10 years due to broken trannies.
dream on pal, there are multiple bmw-reasons that the owners are dumping them like there's no tomorrow, but the biggest one is the tranny.
the only ones that are somewhat going to keep their value are the 1500 or so that were sold with manual, only in the US.
that's it.

>>28483884 (OP)
I was also looking at these cars. A nice looking example will cost you 20-25k at least, and that’s with no maintenance and an automatic, and your estimate of 10k a year on maintenance is not far from the mark if you want a shop to work for you. You have to be pretty well off to afford all of this to begin with. Next, you have to recognize that it’s a 20 year old track car. It will hold value as long as it’s not driven, and since it gets around 12 mpg, driving it is also extremely expensive. Now take these two things together: expensive old sports car that was not meant to be driven except for at the track and ask yourself: should I buy a 20yo sports car because I like the number 10? If you’re looking for an investment, both chassis will hold value since there are many people like you and it really isn’t that difficult to google “s85”. Having a manual will obviously increase the price, but that’s already included in the purchase price. In summary - don’t bother with this car unless you are a car hoarding boomer in need of a lawn ornament.

>>28483962
>>28483884 (OP)
I owned an M5 and M6 and it’s not u reliable at all.
You should do the rod bearing job for like $1800. Rod Bearing meme is overrated both sets in my car had some wear but weren’t bad. But the shaving enter the high pressure vanos line and damage the $2500 pumps of which there are two. So by doing the bearings you prevent damage to the vanos. On top of that the high pressure vanos line fails commonly and the vanos doesn’t have the pressure to operate correctly.
This is only like $2000 and it’s nothing really.

The SMG pump sort of sucks. One went 80k miles and the next one went 5k miles. Don’t let anyone outside of BMW or BMW master techs work on these.
The SMG is really good at track speed and ok on the road with paddles. The manual sort of sucks desu. It’s mushy and geared poorly. Probably holds value better though. The M6 weighs less than the new M4 and has 510hp. Idk easy choice for me. I sold mine at a huge profit and miss it all the time fwiw. I do think it will keep running without major issue for 10 years. I’d feel very good with the M6. >>28483976
I think it’s just a less famous name plate and the market is smaller.

I would get one that’s well cared for with 5k oil changes and preferably a new SMG pump and possibly clutch.
And yes $10k in a year is possible but I’d bet $2k is most years. It’s an overbuilt engine unlike today’s plastic slop engines. A good choice so you can go fast at modern speeds with a classic Albert Biermann M car and avoid the disintegrating nu-cars. Just be mindful it’s an M car and it’s not cheap to own. There may be some years here you could have leased a new one (why would you want a new one though, they suck) for less

>>28484020
I saw a drop dead gorgeous mid 40s trophy wife wearing a black miniskirt flash her red panties while getting gas in one of these when they were new. An m6 vert has been my obsessive dream car since then.

I personally think the E60 is the best looking modern BMW ever made desu. It's at least in the top 3.

>>28483884 (OP)
You’re retarded. Any “appreciation” that occurs, if any, will be more than wiped out by routine maintenance. They are worthless cars because everyone knows they’re shit.

>>28484467
>A nice looking example will cost you 20-25k
I'm not sure when you last looked, but you can find plenty of well sorted mid mileage cars (60k to 100k) for around $16k-$18k, with a slight premium for the M5. I'm looking a making a deal on a pre-LCI M6 with around 70k miles for about $16k with full paperwork and records. You just got to know where to look.
>should I buy a 20yo sports car because I like the number 10? If you’re looking for an investment, both chassis will hold value since there are many people like you and it really isn’t that difficult to google “s85”.
I'm more betting on there never being another mass market V10, much less an NA V10, ever being built, which seems like a pretty safe bet. With everything going to turbos and small six and four bangers, the novelty is worth quite a bit.
>Having a manual will obviously increase the price, but that’s already included in the purchase price.
It will, but my line of reasoning is that every manual M5/M6 of that generation was bought by an enthusiast. They are all going to be taken care of. The SMG cars though are cars that were bought by normies, and as a result, the vast majority of them got trashed and junked out over the past 20 years, or are now pretty well sorted drivers that are on their fourth or fifth owner. A few of each category are sub 30k mile cars that command a price premium now.
>>28484861
Do you think a pre-LCI SMG E63 M6 with 70k miles and paperwork and documentation is a good buy at $16k? Its a boring silver exterior and black interior car, but it has maintenance paperwork.

I plan on keeping it and occasionally driving it as a second or third car for about 10 years.

>>28484861
>Just replace the rod bearings as a reliability mod.

>>28485204
I’d feel really good at that price and that milage. Less is good of course but that’s low for the engine, provided you get one that wasn’t abused.
I like the M6 better of the two, I had the manual M6 and SMG M5. I prefer the gearing and performance of the SMG as the manual is just meh and with the high revving V10 with 500hp at redline it’s a high skill level to actually wield it where as the SMG with paddles on is a lot of fun. I actually used manual mode with paddles all the time for the best experience.
The M6 also is the same length as the current M4 and weighs the same except you have a F1 derived V10. The design is based off the Z9 Concept, i think it looks great. Has a 1930s futurism thing that’s going to be timeless, imo.

I had the adaptive bolsters which squeak but it’s a great seat with ventilation.

Get the color you want imo. Silver is best because it matches the concept and 1930s spirit but I chose Indy Red which is my fav.

>>28485221
That's just the M flair
Problem?

>>28485359
The smg is terrible THOUGH

>>28485221
>Why yes this is a formula 1 derived naturally aspirated v10 that needs to be rebuilt every 50k miles.
>You aren't a little wrenchlet bitch are you.

It's perfect. Perfect.

>>28485204
SMG makes the car. Manual cope is just that. It's a time capsule tech piece. Putting a dinosaur stick shift in it makes no sense.

>>28485374
They need a rebuild every ~120k miles if you don't replace the rod bearings before 80k. Everything else around the engine disintegrates and needs to be replaced before you'll even be able to drive the damn thing though at this age

>>28485374
Kek the e6x is literally only worth it with a manual THOUGH

>>28485380
agreed.

>>28485359
Yeah, I would prefer Interlagos Blue, and there is a clean M5 with 65k miles in that color listed for $22k, but I already have a sedan.

I can always have it manual swapped for $10k.
>>28485374
>SMG makes the car
That's the general consensus it seems. Manual is really only good for longevity reasons. The aftermarket manual swaps though are better tuned then the factory ones from what I've heard.

>>28485221
desu, I believe it's just the factory rod bearings that go bad. They spec'd too tight of a tolerance in combination with 10w60 oil so they wear much faster. Everyone replaces them with a set from BE bearings that are hand clearanced a bit looser. time will tell if those last longer or not, nobody has put enough miles on those yet to tell.

>>28485372
The original SMG I never drive.
The SMG II in the e46 M3 is pretty bad. It shifts like a first timer when you are moving through traffic.
The SMG III in the E60 is bad? Here’s my honest thoughts having owned it and the manual and the ZF6HP and currently a DCT and a ZF8hp. If anyone cares.
The DCT is imo the best option for any performance car, and budget not an option I’d even argue for a race car. They have shown to be very long lasting under race conditions, the downside being weight, accounted for in Motorsport by BoP anyway and they are expensive to rebuild and you can’t custom gear as easily, which is why SEQ is so popular. But SEQ is too loud and rough for a street car. You could actually buy a SEQ for the M5, there is a company that does it, for about $10k, and that would be very cool but not for driving on the highway. You’d have a headache.
The ZF6 and ZF8 are not really good at anything. Biermann left because they put it in the M5. ZF8 is cheap and great at not needing maintenance during a lease or warranty. It has planetary gears so the load is split across 3 places instead of one and thus it can easily deal win the modern torque numbers. It shifts almost as fast as the DCTs from one gear to the next. The issue thoigh as a track gearbox, for which it is robust, is that it can’t shift multiple gears very fast. It’s also annoying to me that it ‘fakes’ rough shifts to act like an SMG in the sport+ settings on new M cars. It’s really a smooth mushy shift. I like them only because they’re very robust and low maintenance. If anyone reading this happens to be shopping for a C7, beware ,Gm copied it completely but downgraded the guts and as a result it’s shit and breaks alot.
I worry that the original run of ZF8s are a lot better than the current ones but I don’t know. BMW and VAG and Chrysler bought so many that penny pinching to save overhead is possibly real.

>>28485514
>e60
>4089lbs
Base weight is actually 3428lbs. But that's only for manual m54 powered examples.

>>28483884 (OP)
If you think about buying one of these S85 cars and in the same thought even slightly think about the words "value" or "cost" you are in for a serious rude awakening. These cars will not appreciate, especially the ones you're probably looking at based off what you said. Anything that is not a 6 speed manual is a true deathtrap if money is of any concern to you. The only versions of these that will ever in a million billion years appreciate in value are either 1 owner cars, below 50k miles, 6 speed manual, individual color.

They will not appreciate, they will not "hold value" and even if they do, I'm not kidding even relatively basic 2-3 year worth of maintenance CAN and WILL total out the car value wise. Something serious breaks and you have to pay for it besides normal maintenance cost? You are looking at potentially tens of thousands of dollars. The fact you said;
>but I will rely on a local BMW indy to do any heavy work.
tells me that you are not prepared to own one of these. You just aren't. If you are OKAY with spending tens of thousands of dollars over the years of ownership, great. I can tell you are not one of those guys.

Awesome cars, fantastic actually. But they are unironically a legitimate moneypit. If you have money to burn and really really want one, fantastic. I promise you that if you own one of these for a year or two you will literally never ever ever be positive in value, this is a money pit through and through. This is coming from someone who dies on the hill of "N54 is reliable", btw.

If you buy a S85 car for $10k, expect to pay $10k-$20k in work for the first two years. If you buy one for $20k, expect $5k-$10k in costs in the same time frame, etc, etc.

>but I am worried about long term value retention.
Yeah you should be, because there is LITERALLY NONE. YOU WILL LOSE MONEY. THERE IS NO SCENARIO WHERE YOU WILL "HOLD VALUE" OR NOT BE AT A NET NEGATIVE WITH THESE CARS, AT ALL.

>>28485372
>>28485514
The manual in the M5/6 is US only and they just copy pasted the one from the 550i and didn’t even mess with the gearing. As a result it’s very awkwardly geared and in BMW fashion the 550i is a softer luxury business man car and the clutch is therefore super mushy and slotting the lever is mushy. It’s just not that good at all.

The SMGIII: it’s a manual box with the robot shifter attached. The pump has carbon forks and they wear and fail. It’s not crazy expensive $1500k or something. The clutch job is like $3k. The M logic shift computer is ok. Not as good as Audi but as good as Porsche. It has 6-7 settings so you’ll find one you like. For driving around it’s ok. It feels like some one shifting a manual box. The computer actually does better if you lift the gas as you shift akd it takes over for the blip. If you learn this it is very smooth. If you leave it in automatic it’s never smoother than a manual shift from a human. It actually actuates the shift faster than a DCT or ZF8 but the computer spends to much time thinking over inputs and what to do so in practice there is some lag between paddle input and the shift occurring. The gearbox is geared perfectly for the 8.2k redline V10. That part of it is a pleasure to drive. It happens to be geared to hit 200 on the dottinger hohe. I know we won’t ever be there in the US but fun fact. On a track it’s a great box to use. Gearing is excellent it shifts fast and hard and there’s a reason bmw keeps emulating it with the ZF8, it’s a very analogue satisfying feel. In traffic crawling though it’s bad. It hiccups and does weird shit. It’s better than II by a million years. It’s the same story with Ferrari and Audi and Lambo versions. Just not really a good thing for traffic. You can pull both paddles for 15 seconds and recalibrate the clutch and that helps.

So what do i think?

>>28485530
I made 70% profit when I sold mine after Covid. I think that 25k mile examples or less will do great. I think the rest will hold value well going forward. Not sure about going up just because they’re typically cars that get daily driven and it’s just not common for them to go up with high miles.

>>28485514
I forgot to mention the SMG skip gears up and down and you can treat it like a manual. Shift down twice for engine braking or skip to 7 for cruising or if on the highway you can drop to 5th for max torque very fast. That’s not something a ZF8 can do and it’s actually really annoying to be sitting there waiting for it to get to a gear that will let you overtake.

Given my choice I’d take a DCT over any other. I’d take a manual then a ZF8 or an SMG or R tronic or whatever you wish to call the automated manual.
My main point is that there are pros and cons to all of these and the SMG is bad in traffic and will need a new pump probably twice in 100k miles for $1-$3k. It comes with a 2 year warranty btw
If I was shopping for an E60/3 I honestly don’t know that I’d hold out for a manual and if I did it would be only because it will hold value better and not because it’s more fun to drive, and I’d be really annoyed if I had to pay extra for it vs the SMG because I know it’s not worth it.
I’d probably actually buy and SMG and find a shop to do the conversion and hang the clutch if I had to have a manual, bc the gearing is so much better. If money weren’t a concern I would drive the SMG until the clutch fails and buy the SEQ option.
I just know from experience this one is overhyped and about as bad of a manual as you can find where as the SMGIII was designed solely for this engine and car.

Hope that helps inform your choice. I don’t have a recommendation except that the manual will cost less to keep running and will hold value or grow in value eventually.

>>28485379
I’ve never heard or seen this from any tech I’ve talked to. Most have said they have never seen the S85 or S65 fail and it was all overhyped. I still recommend doing the bearings to protect the Vanos pumps and also OP, use the recommended oil don’t fall for the memes about switching to thinner.

>>28485489
You can do the black stone oil analysis to check for bearing wear btw. I did BE bearings never saw any signs of them wearing.

>>28485533
Yes, that's why the e60 M5 and e63 m6 are shit bmaooo
The smg was garbage and the manual was an afterthought

>>28485549
I asked the head engine builder at CarBahn after he mentioned Steve Dinancs e60 M5. He brought it up as an example of how Steve would just start the cars up and run 'em hard apparently when I was asking him about warming up engines. I asked him how long the M5 lasted with him trrating it like that and he said the engine blew at around 110k or 120k miles I can't remember exactly.
Another thing he said was he ALWAYS uses the thickest oil recommended in the manual

>>28485777
Oh, again?
i KNOW no one's gonna fuckin'
Check 'em, sonnyboy

Thanks for the feedback guys. I'm probably going to go through with it, but I won't expect there to be any real profit potential.

>>28486111
That car in Dallas has been trashed btw.

>>28485777
Why would you do this especially since Steve would know better?

Wait for the oil to warm up and keep it changed every 5k or twice a year. Instead he ran the heaviest oil possible through a cold engine that runs up to 8.2k.
Jeesh.

>>28486111
I miss mine every day. Just remember when the repair bill comes that the new ones kind of are shit and cost way more anyway