Thread 28539250

>second largest automaker in the world
>largest automaker in their home market
>rolls over and fucking dies because of EVs
Why are Volkswagen letting this happen? Why aren't they lobbying the EU to severely restrict or outright ban non-ICE cars from the market?

da joos

But why would Europe, which doesn't have a lot of domestic hydrocarbon deposits, restrict a technology shift that could help them reduce purchases of foreign oil?

>>28539279
>rely on meager domestic hydrocarbon and friendly forgein hydrocarbons
Vs
>relying entirely on rare earth material power cars which are from unfriendly countries

>>28539279
>which doesn't have a lot of domestic hydrocarbon deposits
They actually do, in the North Sea. Also what >>28539286 said, it's better to be dependent on US shale than chink batteries.

>>28539286
What is a "friendly foreign hydrocarbon"? Because I don't think I would describe the relationship of the United States or the broader Islamic world (for different reasons) as "friendly" to Europe.

>>28539289
For all of Europe as a continent, the North Sea is not "a lot" of domestic hydrocarbons. It is a significant deposit, but Europe is a high population, highly industrialized place. It's energy demands relative to its reserves are akin to East Asia.

VW put all their chips on turbo diesels until the Amerifats slapped them down with Dieselgate. Since then, the German auto industry has basically self imploded because of the C02 mandates and the switch to electrification.

>>28539289
>>28539286

>>28539250 (OP)
>Why aren't they lobbying the EU to severely restrict or outright ban non-ICE cars from the market?
the EU is an ocean liner, not a rubber duck. takes a while to do an about-face in policy

but the effort is being made, of course. if the EU really wanted to increase EV adoption, they'd mandate/subsidize the installation of power outlets in apartment building garages.
this is the main reason for slowing EV adoption, the hundreds of millions of europeans (americans too, ofc) that can't into an EV because they live in an apartment and can't charge it.

but yea, to simply come out and say
>yea, you know all that tree-hugging BS we were spouting for the last 30 years?
>yea, scratch that, EU <3 gasoline!
well, its a bit too much and too soon.

>>28539296
>C02 mandates and the switch to electrification
That and their half-baked new vehicle platforms with crappy software, terrible touch controls everywhere and more random gremlins than a French car.
The last model-years of their previous gen cars were some of the most reliable on the market. Depending on what you count as an issue, their latest-gen cars are among the least reliable.

If for some reason I wanted a car in the style of a Chinese appliance, with fucktons of glossy plastic and touchshit and questionable reliability, I could just buy a Chinese car.

>>28539286
you can make EV batteries without rare earths
or, more realistically, using very little of them

also, rare earths aren't actually that rare. the EU does have deposits, as does the US, as does canada(that's the old name for snow india, if you're confused).
the reason that most of it comes from china is the same as the reason that most electronics come from china:
its cheaper
the chinks have cornered the market pretty well, and they have killed the competition in the west.
if we really had to start mining out own, we could. it would take a while (single digit number of years), but we absolutely could

>>28539346
>get forced to switch to a technology you have no expertise in
>your cars come out half-baked and unreliable
Wow who could have foreseen this

>>28539338
I think that they were forcefully trying to create a new market out of thin air, not much room left to expand in the world since everything is tapped out. but if you can use government overreach to bend everyone over and mandate them to consume new product you win. they didnt count on CHINAH basically undercutting them and pulling the rug from under their feet and hyperactive retards like Musk dominating the market while their own brands couldnt make a decent EV to save their lives.

>>28539360
Even their new gasoline cars were shitty enough that their execs apologized for them. Or at least for the awful touch controls.
I will still not be satisfied until some of them commit sudoku to atone for the subhuman tabletslop.

>>28539377
>I think that they were forcefully trying to create a new market out of thin air
i don't agree. EVs have real, tangible benefits, and not just of the tree-hugging variety.

>not much room left to expand in the world since everything is tapped out
that part i agree with. there's not much of a middle class left. esp in europe.

>but if you can use government overreach to bend everyone over and mandate them to consume new product you win
eh...
50/50 agree/disagree
its true that gaming government policy is a great business strategy
its also true that government intervention is sometimes necessary, as is particularly in the case of EVs.

EV adoption is hampered by a number of chicken and egg problems. for EVs to be adopted, you need charging stations and charging availability in houses/apartments. but for those to manifest under solely free market conditions, you need high levels of EV adoption. which you won't get without charging stations and charging at home.
so, yea, classic chicken and egg problem. and the only way to solve those is external intervention. elon musk managed to do solve them partially for his own cars with the supercharger network, but a complete solution requires a government to step in.

>they didnt count on CHINAH basically undercutting them and pulling the rug from under their feet
i think they did. or, if not particularly china, then at least they knew that EVs becoming mainstream would kill their greatest moat, the ability to construct refined and performant engines that also conformed to stringent emissions standards.
that's why the trad mfgs never really tried to go EV, they knew it would open them up to insane competition

>>28539401
>charging
Charging wouldn't be an issue if EV charged as fast as gas cars fueled up.

>EVs have real, tangible benefits, and not just of the tree-hugging variety
There's no benefit good enough to justify switching to cars that effectively become useless after 10 years.

>>28539291
Norway

>>28539442
Norway can't power Europe exclusively and indefinitely.

>>28539417
>There's no benefit good enough to justify switching to cars that effectively become useless after 10 years.
People been changing cars every 5 years or so. For over two decades now. There were always incentives and bonuses to changing cars regularly. In western EU at least.

The only problem with EVs is that it's still way too expensive and it fucks up poorfags too much.

>tinyurl com / 42rdjzbt

Everything going according to the plan.

>>28539417
People are still restoring and rebuilding old VW vans. An old VW van in great shape is top dollar.
Right now, as I write this, someone is restoring the hippy van, somewhere.
Now look, is anyone going to service this shit in 5 years? Or, this is disposable junk, like a plastic lighter? Think anyone is going to rebuild the retro VW van in 20 or 30 years? But someone will be working on an old 71 somewhere.

>>28539250 (OP)
VW spends the most on R&D by far (nearly twice that of the next biggest spender). the fact that american automakers like GM are ahead of them in BEV platform development, to the point where the japs like Honda are turning to GM to borrow those very same BEV platforms because they want some EV presence knowing ICE is the one that's going to be banned in first world countries if anything, says a lot about how shit VW is.

>>28539401
Did government step in to build gas stations everywhere? No, it’s just obvious that ICEs rock

>>28539497
This is 100% wrong. Exactly the opposite of reality. People have been holding on to cars longer and longer as they get more reliable for decades. EVs degrading is a huge step backwards.

>>28540057
>forgot pic
And in the last five years it’s only gotten worse

>>28539250 (OP)
It should be abundantly obvious that Europeans have no self-preservation instinct.

>>28540057
>Did government step in to build gas stations everywhere?
yes, actually
also roads, and highways, and sidewalks, and traffic lights, and rest stops
and also they fought a bunch of wars to keep gas available and cheap

>People have been holding on to cars longer and longer as they get more reliable for decade
yea, because cars did get more reliable over the years. until about 2010.
then the complexity exploded because emissions and because tech became a focal point, and current ICEs are only worth leasing.
which ofc is going to take another 5-10 years before it starts showing up in stats. right now, all we're seeing is how many cars from late '00 to early '10s are still out there. but in 2030-2035, we'll be able to see that none of the cars from late '10s to early '20s survive.

except EVs ofc, because they're dead simple and reliable. those will still be around. maybe with only 70-80% of the original range, or otherwise on their 2nd battery, but still around. and yea, that 2nd battery thing will totally be a thing. 10-15 years from now, a replacement battery for a current model 3 will probably be a $5k part that essentially gets you a brand new car.

>>28540085
My car was 14 years old when I bought it and it cost me under 1k. "Just spend 5 grand on a battery replacement for your 15 year old car" isn't the gotcha you think it is.

>>28540095
>My car was 14 years old when I bought it and it cost me under 1k
and presumably it was a complete and utter shitbox, unreliable AF (unless you spent way more than 1k in repairs/maintenance) and extremely unpleasant to live with (90's jap econoboxes, just guessing here, are not famed for comfort, features, refinement, quiet, performance etc)

>"Just spend 5 grand on a battery replacement for your 15 year old car" isn't the gotcha you think it is.
it is, actually. its the EV equivalent of doing a full engine/tranny/driveline swap on an ICE. it essentially makes it brand new. for 5k, its a bargain.

>>28539250 (OP)
Don't try to understand the mind of a europoor. Just know they are inferior to us new-worlders.

>>28540106
Besides tires (which I don't count because they're consumables regardless of drivetrain), the only big job it needed was a new clutch. Would've been 1k at a shop, did it myself along with a bunch of other little things for under 400.
Other than that outside of basic fluids and filters, the passenger window regulator shat the bed and it needed a new crank sensor once. Never left me stranded, just wish it had AC.

>>28540118
gj on wrenching on your own shit successfully
but saying stuff like
>just wish it had AC
is kinda proving my point, isn't it?

>>28540118
>bragging about spending more money than it's worth on some rusted out beat to hell shitbox
We get it, you're poor lmao

>>28540126
My main point is you can get yourself on the road for under 2k if you're even remotely handy or patient enough to wait for a deal. You're not gonna get something particularly fast, and no it won't have an app for you to set the cabin temperature 5 minutes before you set off or whatever, but it's a functional car.
If everything cheap also requires you to spend another 5 grand on a new battery pack, that's gonna rule a ton of people out, myself included.

>>28540129
Congrats for figuring that out, genius.

>>28540085
>also roads, and highways, and sidewalks, and traffic lights, and rest stops
I'd love to see all that get funded without gas and registration taxes. Tolls at every intersection are coming in the near future.

>>28540140
>My main point is you can get yourself on the road for under 2k if you're even remotely handy or patient enough to wait for a deal
and im not saying otherwise.

what im saying is, modern ICEs are absolutely not going to survive long term because they're impossible/way to expensive to maintain long term due to their immense complexity.
except EVs, because those are simple AF with only a single obvious wearable part that will certainly drop in price precipitously as time goes on, and which is comparatively very simple and easy to replace.

>>28540144
And that's basically gonna kill off the dirt cheap car market. It's gonna be either lease a brand new ICE/EV, buy an older ICE and get raped on repairs, or buy an older EV and blow 5 grand on a new battery pack.

>>28540153
Don't worry anon, you can always take the bus if you don't want to spend money on your transportation

>>28540158
Yeah, fuck me I suppose. Poors don't deserve nice things, that's why they're poor.

>>28540153
>And that's basically gonna kill off the dirt cheap car market
basically, yes.
at some point, the typical 15-25 year old shitbox that you and other poorfags benefit from currently will be a modern 4pot turbohybrid that's impossible to work on, and you'll be fucked

>or buy an older EV and blow 5 grand on a new battery pack.
well, not necessarily.
at present, data shows that battery degradation caps out at ~70-75ish% of original range. there's early model Ss out there that can still do 200 miles range IRL. which is not great, but workable.
in a hypothetical future scenario you'd be looking at a model 3 with ~400 miles of original range that has dropped to only 300, which is even more workable.
and yes, if it does completely shit itself at some point, you're gonna have to drop some money on it. or buy another used one if that's cheaper.

>>28540163
You jest but turning low and middle wage earners into busfags is a stated goal of many people who push for EVs.

>>28539250 (OP)
because their PR got bodyslammed by dieselgate. they don't care what fuel their vehicles use, so long as people buy them.

>>28539279
north sea has one of the largest known oil deposits

>>28540085
>there were no roads until government wanted to get people to mass adopt cars
You are completely retarded
Nothing you’re saying is correct
It’s just EV cope with no statistical basis
>Ehrm actually the stats WILL show I’m right against all current trends
Pure,undiluted copium
Kill yourself

>>28540183
>they don't care what fuel their vehicles use, so long as people buy them
This wouldn't be a problem if VW's offerings weren't the worst EVs on the market.

>>28540085
the earliest sealed highways were actually privately funded by car clubs, using member donations.

Don't blame VW's failings on EV. They have retarded engineers. Kia/Hyundai head hunted all the good ones why they make the best EVs now and not Europe.

>>28539401
The Chinese factor to VWAGs death is understated

Compare their sales pre vs post COVID. Even to date half their worldwide sales are in the Chinese market. VW taught the Chinese how to build cars from when they packed up Westmoreland from Pennsylvania to Changchun to build Mk2 Jettas and Quantums with FAW to date, that's why you have your BYDs and Xiaomis. When those brands became prominent (again due to state intervention, both the Chinese govt dumping billions into battery development and restricting new ICE registrations) VWs sales started tanking

>>28539250 (OP)
Because, conspiracy theories aside, companies are subject to the whims of the population. And the population decided EVs and environmentalism were the hot new things when Tesla exploded, so every other carmaker had to rush to get viable hybrids and EVs out the door because the alternative was to take the PR hit of being the ones to argue for fossil fuels. There's also of course the added benefit of it being a new "thing" you can use to sell a new car to someone who doesn't need a new car. It's like what happened with the internet of things, a company had the bright idea of slapping an ARM processor on some appliance and selling it as the hot new thing that you totally have to get and all of a sudden there were smart toasters, smart refrigerators and smart spoons everywhere, of course half of these were retarded and actually less useful than their old dumb counterparts but the point was having a new hook to sell people who already had a perfectly fine working refrigerator that still had decades of life ahead of it a new refrigerator. And of course in the case of EVs it helps if you get the government on your side to basically make it law that people need to buy the hot new thing or else, but then the EU has been having to soften their stance on EVs as it becomes increasingly obvious that a lot of people simply don't have the resources to buy a brand new car right now, nevermind an EV with its special infrastructure requirements, which is something several automakers seemingly didn't expect when they went all in on EV.

>>28539250 (OP)
Because it was a brand made by Hitler, so it all must burn

>>28540309
Sounds like state intervention is a good policy that works. I wonder if we should impotently complain about it or use it ourselves?

Yes they are dying because of EVs. They are dying because they fell for the meme, spent gorillions on le electric transformation and now nobody wants to buy them. Not even VW employees want them as company cars. I know a lot of faggots working there and they are in absolute doom mode because all they can do is watch as leftist politicians ride that company into the ground.

>>28540827
until your state assigned car is a 2nd hand Trabant and you have to wait 20 years for it.

>>28539360
Why are their diesels so shitty then?

Dont really know what this thread is about so I will just leave this here

>>28539250 (OP)
Vw sales are doing great surprisingly in china, Mexico, Brazil, and America. It’s a shame they took out the arteon in America. It’s a great sedan, reminds me of the A5

>>28541203
because market analysts convinced them consooming 1L DEF per 200 miles is too much and the work around is 3x engine complexity + higher egr rate. And they mostly got fucked by the post diesel gate fallout, emission test cycles start cold where the cat doesnt do its job yet, getting the exhaust hot as quick as possible is like half the add-on parts on a nu-diesel and the bane of modern 3.0 tdi's

>>28539250 (OP)
Most of their money comes from sausages stupid

>>28539250 (OP)
They couldn't compete with Tesla, simple as.

>>28539286
>relying entirely on rare earth material power cars which are from unfriendly countries
The Europe is a fucking continent, and there is a LOT of mines that could be restarted. Same with battery production.There is even a lot of dug out deposites sitting at the bottom of lakes that could be dug out.

>>28539911
>make expensive diesel hybrid concept car
>Do limited production run
>Don´t port over any of the tech to a Golf or Caddy lineup to compete with the Prius

>Have a dedicated van platform
>Make a rebarge of a fucking Ford Transit Custom chassis anyhow

>>28539250 (OP)
VW bought too many brands and produced too many vehicles which are cannibalizing themselves. They should sell Bentley and Bugatti to BMW, stop the VW "i" series and integrate such technologies to legacy models like Polo-Golf-Passat, stop making all the Audi's suv variations and shrink them to a few because as of now they all look shit and they all look the same.

>>28541859
That's because VW is selling all its backlog of vehicles Europe has banned due to Dieselgate or other models with higher engine CCdue to pollutions restricting policies. China and Mexico got all the 2.0 and 2.5 tdi along with V6 petrol models.

>>28539250 (OP)
climage change green mandates are punishment for colonialism