Thread 28574278

Why do racing brakes cost so damn much?
Fuck, $2,500 per caliper is crazy.

>>28574278 (OP)
>Why do racing brakes cost so damn much?

R&D cost

>>28574284
>R&D
This plus it's not likely that they'll sell more than a few hundred sets, they can't make back the costs through sheer scale like with OEM parts.

>>28574284
>>28574302
These, plus they will use more expensive materials than OEM brakes

>>28574278 (OP)
>$2,500 per caliper
they have to convince retards to assume lies like
>>28574284
>R&D cost
or
>>28574310
>expensive materials
but when you realize that
1. aluminium 7075 is something like $5/kg
2. a mech. engineer with solidworks and 2 months of manhours can design _and_ do performance simulations on that thing
in conclusion, car parts is mostly a snake-oil industry that sells to retards that have zero technical knowledge.
exactly like the audiophools.

>>28574326
Aren’t these usually forged? Thats a bit more pricier than billet machining.

>>28574326
>2. a mech. engineer with solidworks and 2 months of manhours can design _and_ do performance simulations on that thing

"The creators" of devel sixteen were also such optimists.

>>28574335
>Aren’t these usually forged
it doesn't matter. it's still cheap given the fact that these are produced by the thousands.
if you factor in that you will charge 4x$2500 per customer, this means that with 5 customers you have made back what you paid for the dies
let's say you paid another $50k design house to design the pads for you, that's another 5 customers.
if you are in the business for this shit, you have already got your money back from your press, furnace, etc.
for perspective, you can buy crate engines with 1000x times more R&D costs put into them for the same price of 4 of those meme calipers.
and with engines, we talk about special alloys, nanometer precision, thousands of moving parts and a gorillion times in the bench to test the engines.
$2500 is retard money for a piece of aloominoom.

>>28574362
>if you factor in that you will charge 4x$2500 per customer, this means that with 5 customers you have made back what you paid for the dies
No you haven't. You're assuming 10k die costs, but it could be more - and that's per die. You have various hands and sizes. Then you have to consider that your theoretical 4 x $2.5k is the turnover - you haven't taken off the cost of materials, labour, consumables, overheads, logistics and marketing. Even if you made 10% margin, using your numbers that'd be $250 per customer, so you'd need 40 customers to pay for one single die

>you can buy crate engines with 1000x times more R&D costs put into them for the same price of 4 of those meme calipers
Except those crate engines are crated versions of engines that also go into mainstream cars down the production line. For example, the infamous LS, beloved crated engine of many a swapfag, how many of those do GM make? Well overall they have produced over 100 million small-blocks, so that's a lot of amortisation

I hope you're trolling, but let me give you one piece of advice. Always work for someone else, because if you try to go into business for yourself, particularly in manufacturing, with your lack of understanding you'll go broke and take your backers down with you.

>>28574278 (OP)
Its safe to say you dont need these to get to McDonalds. Your mom doesnt count as a racing sponsor.

>>28574384
>You're assuming 10k die costs
>>28574384
>4x$2500 per customer, this means that with 5 customers you have made back
4 calipers, $2500 each for 5 customers is 4x5x$2500=$50000
I assumed the the maximum price.

>>28574388
Now you put those goalposts back where you found them

>I assumed the the maximum price.
No you didn't. Your(?) little infographic stated $50k or more. And if you're looking at 4 callipers, 1 each, front and rear, left and right than that's a minimum of 4 dies and probably 8, inner and outer bolted together.
So let's assume $25k for a die and not the max $50k plus, so for the vehicle sets you're selling that's 8 dies giving a capital of $200k just in dies. Your income for your 5 customers (I see you've managed to sell an extra vehicle set in such a short time - good marketing) would be, as you say $50k. 10% margin gives you $5k so you still need those 40 customers to buy vehicle sets just to buy your dies.
Oh, and I forgot as well as the other costs I listed - you also need to factor in the cost of the money you need to borrow to fund the dies before they make a part to sell, and depreciation because, as you know, aluminium erodes steel dies so you'll probably only get a few thousand parts before you need to replace them - rinse and repeat. You'll also need to test the forgings as brakes are safety critical parts, which will add to the variable overheads.

>>28574409
(cont)
and, for some reason, you're just focused on the dies. You also need to tool the various pistons (because they don't just have one size in any one calliper) seals, and dust covers. So once your fiirst 40 customers have paied for your dies, the next set of customers can pay for the injection mounding tools for your seals and dust covers. next you can start paying for the tooling for your pistons (unless you're going to machine them from bar stock), you'll have the graphics dies to print the transfers, you'll need the dedicated holding fixtures in the anodising tanks, and probably chroming fixtures too for your pistons, if you use any unique fasteners then they will need tooling.....

If it was so easy, aftermarket brake manufacturers would be up there with Venture Capitalists on the S&P 500

>>28574409
>that's a minimum of 4 dies and probably 8, inner and outer bolted together.
>$50k or more
you are forging aluminium calipers, not steel or titanoom conrods.
making them as asymetrical as they can get to require you to get 50 closed-dies is a design decision not a functional decision.
for example in OP's pic related they are tapped with screws front and back so this means that those can fit both front and back.
you can also make the inner piece symmetrical (front to back) and machine whatever you want for airflow
at best you will need 2 dies, at worst you will need 3 dies, bad decisions will get you to whatever dies you want.
>>28574415
>custom pistons
>custom rings
>custom x
>custom y
this nigga thinks that he needs to be toyota to make calipers.
>>28574415
>aftermarket brake manufacturers would be up there with Venture Capitalists on the S&P 500
pic related, but also not an argument.
the reason why the industry suffers is because they make design decisions that don't factor inthe cost.
even brembo makes their parts in china.
I won't be surprised if the faggotry that is called APRacist and we argue to over 2 hours like retards and cost $2500 per calliper is manufactured in china for $20 and they still sell it for $2500
a few years ago an anon claimed to have worked as a middle-man for ford to find a factory for crankshafts in china. he claimed less that $1 for each crankshaft, or something ridiculusly cheap.

>>28574278 (OP)
I payed like 130 bucks a piece for 4 piston brembos but this is only possible because gm is having them stamped out in mass for the caddilac ats.

In addition to what's been said, machine setup times are dreadfully expensive if you just order a handful of units.
The machines themselves are quite expensive too, so taking an hour to mill something from a billet is rarely cost-effective.
And people really underestimate just how much it costs to properly engineer something like this. It's NOT done when you have scribbled a concept in CAD. There's going to be iterations, simulations, testing, optimizations, certification and a whole lot of manufacturing-engineering before you really have a viable product. And each of these steps is expensive as fuck not just because engineers are usually paid decently but also because software licenses are freakishly expensive, as are any teststands you may need to use because brakes are not something to just fuck around with.
Then there's all the overhead not directly linked to that one brake that does need to be payed too.
A lot of money goes into such a product before the first unit can be sold, but how many of these calipers will you actually sell?

Scale effects hit really hard at the bottom of the units scale.

>>28574278 (OP)
Stock rotors and calipers and good pads master race

>>28574427
>this nigga thinks that he needs to be toyota to make calipers.
If you're a brake manufacturer and you want pistons, if you don't make your own then where are you going to get them from?

>>28574427
>pic related, but also not an argument.
I think it is, because it's a business. let's have a look at those 2024 in a little more detail - pic rel

So global turnover was $3,840.6 million, with an EBITDA (basically cash generation) of $661.1 million, or 17.8% as the release says. So they are making nearly 18% before the financial cost of running the business is taken into account - not bad in manufacturing, but not stellar. But the net profit of $262.6 million on that turnover is only 6.8%. By comparison, if you put your money in UK 10-year gilts then the coupon rate is 4.5% - that's a guaranteed annual return with no risk.

The reason for your headline turnover in the billions is they make an awful lot of brakes, many of them for OEMs, who happily pay for both Brembo's expertise and prestige. And you don't get either without doing a good job.

>>28574492
forgot pic - sorry

>>28574326
sounds like you should be able to spin up a brake business and undercut them big time. i look forward to seeing your results.

>>28574278 (OP)
They don't: https://ceika-store.com/en-jp?locale=ja
It's ~$1,200 for a BBK.

>>28574466
the same you do with screws, you get a catalog of every type of screw that's been made for the past 100 years and will be made for the next 100 years and order what fits your needs.
>>28574497
most likely you won't buy it for 2 reason.
1. I won't have 40% of the budget dedicated to marketing, so since it's not advertised, you won't trust it
2. you won't trust a product that's cheap, your entire life you are conditioned to believe that "more expencive -> more better"
for example, BMW manages to be in the dusiness today even though they make cars with engine breaking flaws for those 2 reasons:
1. market it to retards
2. make it expensive so that it makes you feel that it's something special

>>28574427
>an anon claimed
on an anonymous basket-weaving image board? And you believed him without evidence?

>he claimed less that $1 for each crankshaft, or something ridiculusly cheap.
Hmmm. Let's think about those numbers for a while. If we take the crankshaft of a 4-cyl like the Honda Integra (it's the only small crank I could find easily), then the crank weighs around 30 lbs (pic rel)
[to be continued]

>>28574507
>[to be continued]
do a RFQ for 10million of these, like GM or Fjord does.

>>28574507
[continued]
So if we now look in China for our cheap 30 lbs crank, then I found prices for grey cast or ductile cast of about $0.55 per pound for castings of this size - pic rel.
So our cheap 30 lb crank in cast iron would cost around $16.50 - and that's before any machining. Plus in reality you'd probably want a better grade of material

So I personally doubt the $1 crankshaft from China story

because they know you will pay even if theres no way youd ever need it

>>28574505
>the same you do with screws, you get a catalog of every type of screw that's been made for the past 100 years and will be made for the next 100 years and order what fits your needs.
I know you can buy fasteners in bulk - that's why I said pistons. Where are you going to get your brake pistons from? Or your guide pins? Because you can't just buy them from a competitor brake manufacturer, can you?

>>28574505
>most likely you won't buy it for 2 reason.
There's a third - no evidence that they are any good

>>28574501
>browse the site out of curiosity
>end in the custom wheels section
>select one and scroll down to the reviews
>a mexican says he bought them for his car
>the car:

>>28574278 (OP)
Because (1) they have to look good, and (2) racing is SEVERE DUTY for braking systems.

>>28574505
these sound like excuses as to why you don't want to start a genius multi billion dollar brake manufacturing operation. very strange considering how easy and lucrative it would be.

>>28574561
How's the lease on your base model 3 series?

>>28574536
Based.

>>28574529
>There's a third - no evidence that they are any good
customers don't care about good products, otherwise nobody would've bought the M6 with the grenading engine or the broken smg

>>28574727
>customers don't care about good products....
That has to be one of the most stupid replies on the entire internet today. Well done if your post was irony.

>>28574326
>engineerlet thinks CAD simulations are enough
LOL

>>28574514
Stock tech brake calipers are kind of shit though.
They arn't any better than OEM stuff like C7 or Camaro Brembos.

>>28574326
Anon, I work with a bunch of retarded engineers like you.
If we actually force you to do a real life test; you'd probably have a brain aneurysm.
all you understand is a shitty simulation and not real life.

>>28574536
I used to make fun of these people untill i realized that most wheels that you'd have to buy to fit a big-brake swap are almost always un-fitting on classics.
you literally cannot win with the wheel selection.

>>28574278 (OP)
just buy used dirt track/oval racing car parts.

>>28574981
I think big brakes are a little overrated.
These TA2 series Race cars use 12in rotors on the front and 11.5in rear.
They Hit higher breaking g-forces than even a GT2 RS. Even with a 3,000lb curb weight and mild Aero.
They also run faster lap times.

>>28574522
ugh on of the 20 machine shops you quoted for their lowest bid

>>28574278 (OP)
SOLD

>>28574345
>dyno accuracy improves
>hp decreases

>>28574278 (OP)
Is this even noticeably better than any car that comes with 15"+ brembos?

>>28574981
My brakes are hopelessly incapable of handling hard driving but I really don't want to give up my 15 inch rims

>>28575047
They're replacing those pads and rotors in those race cars every couple pit stops. Pads and rotors don't live long lives when they're glowing red hot. Big brake kits have bigger pads and larger rotors which help dissipate heat and extend the lifespan which is a good thing for a personally owned car.

>>28575047
All 15" wheel stock cars are known to be marginal on brakes and have to run electric fans for brake cooling for heavy braking tracks or hot weather.

>>28574278 (OP)
They are doing this for money. You can't be so naive to think they are selling you these things for cost + a little bit extra just to keep the lights on. Even the original price of pic related is probably 10x what it cost to make.

>>28574981
>>28575047


Basically, in almost any vehicle, the number one limiting factor to braking distance has always been the force between the rubber and the road. Don't matter how much force you're applying to the rotors if you're already locked up and sliding anyways.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql9eYh31kTw

The real shit in brake design is really thermal insulation; preventing heat from the pads from being conducted through the pistons to the working fluid. Almost nobody talks about that part though.
Structural integrity of the materials themselves at higher temperatures is of course also a factor, to tolerate longer stints of harder use.

>>28575319
Can't change rotors in the pits cuz the rules.
Even if you could you wouldn't want to. The breakfasts on those cars are bolted or lig driven directly on the hub.
They do however have 2 or 3 brake ducts.

>>28575329
The electric brake fans are funny, but a lot of people doubt they even work at all.

>>28575047
NASCAR switched to 15in rotors and even then can overheat those of they arn't careful.
There's a bunch of older NASCAR calipers on eBay, but they are fuck all wide. No easy way to get those to fit a normal race car.
I think the calipers are 9-10in wide.

>>28574302
>R&D
most performance brakes are a solved science. It's not like brembo has to do a shit load of research to figure out how to make brakes anymore.

>>28575380
they only overheat because they're min-maxing the cooling with aero efficiency, they could easily send excess air to them and not worry about it, but that would mean more drag and less downforce

>>28575395
Ya, always a trade off.
I wish my race car could fit 3 fucking brake ducts.
I can barely get a single 3in to work.
And it's routed under the a-arm like Pic related

>>28575372
>Can't change rotors in the pits cuz the rules.
Depends on the race series I guess. It's definitely a thing in long range endurance racing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqyiMt1Y-VI

>>28574278 (OP)
$2500??? You can buy an shifter kart and an entire case of E-juice for that kind of money
carfags are straight up skibidi delulu

>>28574278 (OP)
Like all luxury or performance goods, people who think they need it are more susceptible to marketing and wishful thinking and will gladly pay a high premium.

>>28574278 (OP)
Rip some calipers off a boneyard corvette they'll serve 99% of your needs

>>28575555
>Rip some calipers off a boneyard corvet... ACK!

R&D
Setup
Small sales number
Big markup
/thread

>>28574522
>Where are you going to get your brake pistons from?
goes to show, nobody in the western hemisphere knows what a "lathe" is.

>>28574835
people who actually make small-batch aftermarket parts like this usually give a couple sets to their retarded track buddies to beat on, then they figure out what breaks first

>>28574326
>CAD
>Simulations
Retard.

Not to mention Sim != Real world and to perform something more accurate would require more complex equations, which are really derivations within derivations of systems of equations. So it is just better to have a proof of concept test in addition to a simulation.

>t. Working on fluid mechanics research

>>28575676
>cavitates your path

>>28575655
>goes to show, nobody in the western hemisphere knows what a "lathe" is.
You've clearly not followed the thread and the reason for my comment, have you? (It was typed with a sarcastic note which was obvious in context)

>>28575655
>goes to show, nobody in the western hemisphere knows what a "lathe" is.
Goes to show that not everyone knows some brake pistons are forged. Pic rel - Wilwood Superlite III Caliper Piston 200 7531

>>28574447
based knower. the dust was a worthy tradeoff for being able to stomp the brakes all day and night without ever worrying about fade.

>>28575314
got a disc brake conversion kit for my old barge that uses calipers and rotors from a 78-81 firebird, which conveniently takes the GM D52 pad pattern so I was able to buy EBC bluestuffs for it

>>28575314
I was having issues with my shit and it turned out the booster was junk, the brakes did work just half as efficiant, it would cause boiling fluid and melting pads under hard braking.
I really wish I stopped there instead of doing a 5lug swap but my 7.5 blew the fuck up so all the 5lug parts I was hoarding suddenly needed to be on the car instead of being wishful thinking.

>>28575765
>Unported piston
>No anti knockback springs
>Cast stainless
Anon, that's not gonna work
Am have you seen a race caliper piston?

>>28575676
Unless you're white and atleast 40yrs old, I cannot trust you as an engineer.
Anyone young and non white is fucking retard.

>>28576131
>Anon, that's not gonna work
Go tell Wilwood. Pic rel

Also you're the only one talking race. I wasn't

Anons, should I do it?
$800 for old Billet NASCAR calipers.

>>28576142
Anon, Wilwood has real race parts, then normal daily driver shit.
Their race pistons aren't cast stainless they are pic related.

>only one talking race.
Got EM!

>>28576195
>race caliper piston
I see you haven't followed the thread to see the context. many such cases, sadly

But, to make you happy. You got me. It wasn't a race piston. You are obviously way cleverer than I am. I bow to your superior intellect. Here's your (You).

>>28576131
You are right on the young part, but I am just saying that tools and models have their limits. They have come a long way, but it will never be as good as actual testing. Seniority is a good aspect in engineering, which is why I am thankful to be lower level.

Lucky for you (and me, in all seriousness), I deal with unmanned systems, so you don't need to shit yourself over what I am doing anyway.

>>28574278 (OP)
Got brain hemorrhage of the bolt on price when i wanted to upgrade my toyota aristos brakes.

Went online and found a set of Brembo calipers from a flipped Porsche pannamera and bought them, researched brakedisk specs and found that the lexus IS II with the 5Lv8 has the exact same dimentions, just bigger diameter and wear area.
after some cad and water jet i had soem adapers for the calipers.

hippety hoppety now i have big brakes 14,5" rotors, 6pistons in front and 13 in rear with 4pistons, :)

>>28576208
I accept your concession you Reddit using fag.
Now get off my board.

>>28576219
Seems like my comment baited 2 retarded engineers.
I bet ur ass wears a tucked in collared shirt with a belt buckle, to work with a stupid knife/Pen combo.

>>28575966
Damn! You might be right, I know my booster has /some/ sort of problems because I hear a vacuum hiss when I hold the brake pedal down partway...

>>28576969
I have actually had them go bad and they would still hold vaccum if you tried to pull it with a gun

>>28574278 (OP)


It's both a small market, so there isn't much in the way of alternatives; and the small number of people who are looking in the market are willing to pay dearly if it means getting something better.
So ripe conditions for ballooning prices.

>>28575765
>"well ackshyually, SOME are forged"
>posts an obvious sand casting
i shiggy hope you dont think castings are better than machined billet.

>>28578956
This post proves people are only here to feel hate and argue.

>>28580761
i feel funny though. maybe it was the clown i ate

>>28576131
>Everyone except the generation with the highest levels of lead exposure BY FAR is retarded.

>>28575319
>they change the brakes in the pits
>they're glowing hot so they don't last
Oh so they have guys in the pits with asbestos gloves changing brake pads and discs that are still hundreds of degrees?