Is the tick hysteria justified?

>>2814240 (OP)
Yes.

>>2814241
Proof?
Not just a massive psyop to scare people out of the woods?

>>2814240 (OP)
I met someone with alpha gal. Now I'm afraid of getting that from a tick.

I had a tick on my balls once, hurt like a bitch to get off, other than that, not really a big deal if you check yourself regularly, I do it before bed

Fun fact tick removers for pets costs about half as much as ones for humans even though its the exact same thing, just blue instead of red, I prefer the "lasso" kind

>>2814240 (OP)
no, i pick hundreds of ticks off me a year and nothing has ever happens

I got Lyme last year. Went off trail in some tall bushes and it went under my trousers and bit me on my inner thigh. I have never seen the tick or noticed anything wrong that day.
The erythema migrans appeared around a month later with no other symptoms. I went to a doctor who recognized it immediately and gave me a 2 week course of antibiotics, after which I was cured. There were no long lasting issues. The rash on my leg went away after a couple of months.
What you should actually fear is not seeing the rash (it is unmistakable, looks like a bull's-eye) and leaving it untreated for years, which can leave you with permanent joint damage, among other things.

It's cope for people who haven't stepped into a chigger hive yet.

The only one that scares me is the lone star tick. Imagine having to become a vegetarian for the rest of your life.

>>2814379
i've stepped in a chigger hives and still would prefer them to ticks.
alpha-gal syndrome and lyme disease scare the hell out of me
>.t lives an hour away from Lyme, CT.

>>2814382
>>2814413
Just looked up alpha-gal.
What the FUCK

>>2814240 (OP)
I don't know. I can't say i've ever really had a problem with ticks but then again, all of my in laws, except for 3 out of the 7 siblings have lime's disease to some degree, and one is a permanent celiac.

>>2814240 (OP)
Absolutely not. I've been out pretty much every day (for at least an hour, often the entire day on weekends) for close to 20 years now. Never had a tick, and all the people I know that got bitten got bitten in the city. Seriously, like one guy seeing a tick crawl up his leg while sitting in the outdoor part of the cafeteria of his workplace, or a girl I know getting bitten at school. Never in the woods or while working the fields.

>walk through tall grass or brush
>check self for ticks after
>carefully remove them if you see any

It’s really that simple. I’ve even accidentally crushed them and not gotten the head out, and nothing happened except it was a little itchy for a day or two

>>2814452
Seems like some Plum Island fuckery

>>2814382
>Imagine having to become a vegetarian for the rest of your life
It's not quite THAT bad. Alpha-gal is only found in mammals (except primates). Birds and fish are still fine. It would still fucking suck to never be able to eat red meat again, but at least you can still have chicken and turkey and seafood. And stuff like alligators if you're in one of the places where they have those.

>>2814240 (OP)
kinda, but you shouldn't be too scared

>>2814240 (OP)
>>2814249
>alpha gal
Yes it's justified. Next slide.

>>2814599
No worse than prion disease, I guess. Just one of those really random things nature rarely does to really, really fuck with you. But that danger is part of the thrill, ultimately, right? That's part of why we go /out/.

>light-colored, close-fitting pants
>doused in DEET and/or permethrin, especially the lower legs
>tick check immediately after walking through tall plants
>wash clothes immediately after getting home
>tick check and shower right afterwards
After finding a tick attached to each armpit in bed one time, this is my strategy whenever I go out (mushroom hunting)

>>2816935
how do you check your bum area though?

>>2814240 (OP)
Get lyme disease and let it go unnoticed for a week or month then tell us how it goes.

>>2816962
You tuck your shirt in and socks over pants to ensure bugs can't get up to begin with

>>2814240 (OP)
I got lime disease after a trip to Michigan and doing lots of /out/ activities. I got them on my back. I had been bitten by many ticks before that but all it takes is one with lime to do you in.

A month later after three separate doctor visits and me being chronically sick I got tested and found out I had lime. Two weeks of antibiotics and I was cured but it can ruin your life if left untreated. Can't eat red meat, damages your joints, very limited stamina.

It's worth taking the steps to prevent tick bites. But I wouldn't call it hysteria

>>2816962
The ticks are on plants, waving their little arms around, waiting for you to walk by. They will grab the front or sides of your pants and you will see them there because you're constantly tick checking. Unless you're walking backwards they won't make it to your ass.

Their numbers are exploding in my area, took my dog out for one hour and found 11 ticks on her. I hike every 3-4 days, tall leather boots, tucked pants etc. And only got two bites so far. Just check when you get home and get them off before they engorge and spit up, you won't get lime if you catch them early. Can't speak about alpha gal or wtv we don't have lone stars in my area, just deer ticks and black

>>2814240 (OP)
nah, wouldn't worry about it.
no one ever gets lyme disease.
you should come out in the tall grass sometime.

I have worked in the woods nearly every day for years (and lived in them for the last two). Hundreds if not thousands of tick bites (actual attachment, not just crawling on me) in that time and yet to come down with any tick born disease. Just my experience, but it seems overhyped.

>>2816962
I am
>>2817119
I have never had a tick in my ass ever. Not saying it can't happen but it's not worth worrying about in my mind. They always seem to crawl up, so if you tuck your plants into your socks you never have to worry about it. I've started just treating the first foot or so of my pants with permethrin and the amount of ticks I've found on my legs has dropped to near zero.
>>2816979
>It's worth taking the steps to prevent tick bites. But I wouldn't call it hysteria
Is the correct answer I've settled on. If I get bit, I remove the tick and don't worry about it, but I do take steps to avoid getting bit now, especially after reading up on the plum island conspiracy.
>>2816667
It's way worse than prions in my mind. I quit hunting deer out of caution (i know
CWD "doesn't" spred to people, but I doubt the guys who say that would feed CWD meat to their kids) now I have nothing to worry about. I am theoretically one bite away from permanent and significant lifestyle challenges. It's "better" than dying, but it's also far less avoidable.

yes
i'd use permethrin but i can't cause catbro

>>2814240 (OP)
Yes. Imagine suddenly becoming allergic to meat.

>>2816979
dodged a hell of a bullet
I had an ex with lyme and she was baker acted twice in one year for suicidal ideation

>>2817123
>plum island conspiracy.
elaborate

I see a lot of DEET and permethrin mentions, is Picaridin any good?

>>2817935
i like it better than deet but neither does shit for ticks

>>2814240 (OP)
Had Lyme as a kid 10-12ish never noticed bullseye but tested and found out when I stood up and couldn't move my knee at all. Fell flat on my face. 2 months crutches and antibiotics. Cured?

>>2817284
bioweapon lab off the coast of Connecticut. Supposed to have done work on ticks. first lyme case found in Lyme CT plumb island like less that 20 miles away.
google moron

>>2814272
Rash is not even like 50% of bites either. Got lucky

>>2814240 (OP)
I live in a supposed tick hot zone (Southern Ontario) and I've only ever seen ticks on two outings in my life, both in the same general area which apparently has a bad infestation. I do take precautions like not rolling around in bushes, and I do tick checks after every hike, but I am beginning to think that it's a lot of hysteria. I do know they're out there, and I do think the disease they carry are very serious. But at the end of the day, I do think they're using it as a way to scare people back indoors and fear monger about global warming.

I found a lonestar tick crawling on me on my property in southern TN for the first time ever a few weeks ago. Been tick checking like crazy since.

>>2818052
I've been innawoods in GSMNP and the Appalachians multiple times, I've never seen a tick. It's definitely a PsyOp.

>>2814240 (OP)
Ive spent a lot of time outdoors my entire life, in the woods all seasons of the year. I live in the southeast. Growing up I very rarely got ticks on my despite wading in brush. Never did I see a lonestar tick in my area until this year where I have gotten 4 on me in the course of a week. I have heard rumblings about the Alpha-Gal being some sort of engineered disease which has been spread to the ticks in the early 2010s, and it is funny how it is a red meat allergy when red meat is so demonized and they are trying to move people away from it in the future. Also there's the obvious effect of scaring people away from the outdoors.
Like I said, I've never seen lonestar ticks until this year. I've since searched and found stuff online about people noticing ticks spreading. I've wondered if they are possibly dropping payloads of ticks from airplanes or some other method of spreading them. Think about it, they could literally drop a crate containing a million ticks from high altitude, they would spread out on the way down and proliferate over the next couple of years in whatever area. This probably sounds wild to some, but not if you know half of the things the psychopaths who rule us do and are willing to do to wage physical and psychological warfare on us.
Don't get demoralized, just be extra cautious and sensitive to ticks. Enjoy the outdoors

They really tick me off

>>2818164
hehe
woodpige

>>2814240 (OP)
Lyme disease is just detox so it exposes your shitty diet and weakness. I don't care about tick bites after I realized that.
t. Raw meat gang

>>2817278
Wisconsin?

>just tuck
>just tape
>just check after long grass
This is all good advice for people who are taking leisurely strolls through the local park. If you've done forestry work though, you know that your clothes will come untucked by the 2nd hour, dew/sweat will loosen your tape and you're not stopping to check every 5 minutes while you're working. The sweat also wears down the effect of permethrin/deet/picaridin, so reapply if conditions call for it. Tuck, tape and spray are good precautions but they won't keep you 100% safe.
If you're working forestry, shower nightly. Tick check in the shower, run your hands over every part of your body, and BE THOROUGH. In 8 days at a forestry camp in Thunder Bay, I counted about 2-3 ticks daily on my clothes, and managed to get out with only one actual bite, under my right arm. That bite went unnoticed, by the way, until I stretched in front of a friend who then pointed out the 3 inch bruise forming. Nightly checks suffice to avoid Lyme taking root. The super at that job spent multiple summers in Tbay picking ticks off, and manages to eat burgers without arthritis at 30. However, i'll take bees, wasps, hornets, mosquitoes, blackflies, deerflies, horseflies and a combination of what i listed any day over ticks. I fucking abhor ticks. The idea that a bug smaller than my pinky nail can bite me, go unnoticed and cripple me for life? Send them to hell. Total ticker death.

>>2818708
TRVKE

>>2818708
have you considered willing your body to kill the ticks with antihistamines when they bite you

>>2818708
>The idea that a bug smaller than my pinky nail can bite me, go unnoticed and cripple me for life? Send them to hell. Total ticker death.
E!
D!
F!

>>2814249
they carry all sorts of nasty diseases
its super common to get not only lyme, but other shit like babseosis, anaplasmosis from them

>>2816962
>>2816962
>>2816994
always check your asshole and balls!
get a mirror if you have to. Trim your balls and asshole if you have to!
Motherfuckers go right for the nether regions!

>>2814240 (OP)
My area has too shit soil quality for a lot of plants so ticks are pretty much non-existent here

>>2818161
rn us is airdropping millions of infertile medflies across america to cause the population to decline from false mating so them doing the opposite with ticks might not be much of a stretch

>>2818052
I am also in southern Ontario, I've had two on me so far both I got from the Guelph Lake Conservation Area. I only ever knew one person who got Lyme. It's definitely a real concern but it's a bit over blown

>>2818161
>effects of rising temperatures staring you in the face but nooo let's invent some retarded conspiracy theory instead of accepting that the milder winters get in your area, the more easily ticks from warmer regions can migrate

>>2819583
>them doing the opposite with ticks might not be much of a stretch
Like all conspiracies, you should ask yourself, "How many people would need to be involved in this and how likely is it that none of them have ever become whistleblowers?" The whole "the government created lyme disease and spreads ticks intentionally" is many decades old, and would require the complete silence of multiple generations of people developing lyme, spreading it, breeding infected ticks, distributing them around the country, etc etc.

>>2819650
Not that much really, ticks breed extremely fast they just don't spread fast.

>>2819650

>>2819650
I know there's really no point in replying to you with this information because you're already an adherent to the OfficialTM doomsday religion of global warming.


>would require the complete silence of multiple generations of people
This is an old talking point that actually holds no validity. In many of these large scale operations, the amount of compartmentalization of the people involved is very thorough. People do actually speak out, become whistleblowers, etc on a lot of these 'conspiracy theories', but they are dismissed, sued, no one really cares because most people just accept the official story on everything, most people are snarky know-it-alls like you who have been given a way to look down at your nose and feel smarter than the stupid 'conspiracy theorists' who challenge the narratives of the official modern culture.
It is funny how you can dismiss 'conspiracy theories'. What is a conspiracy? People getting together behind closed doors and forming a plan for something. You think this doesn't happen with major impactful things from very powerful people? I'm sure you believe the evil white capitalists conspire to oppress the poor holy brown people.

>>2819650
The natural world is surely getting destroyed, the decimation of so many plants and animals, ecological collapse. A lot of this is due to the destruction of bird populations, forest reduction, etc. But to think it is impossible for the very government who engineered stuff like Lyme Disease at Plum Island off the coast of Lyme, CT and who admittedly spray chemicals in the atmosphere to geo-engineer the weather, who you probably believe conspire to push crack into black areas, etc; that these psychopaths who rule over us don't wage covert warfare on us through a ton of different means including chemical exposure, poisoning the water supply, bioweapons, subversive degenerate culture, pornography, etc. Don't act like they aren't capable of this. We know their modus operandi. Even if you believe the massive doomsday cult misanthropic psyop of manmade climate change that's going to destroy the world in 10-20 years or whatever the goal post is now, you should be able to admit that it could be both.

>>2819728
>>2819733
None of this is based in science, trumper.

>>2819751
I'm not a trumper, he is a Zionist slave, he is a messiah for the goyim to put their faith in. He will come out of the west and destroy the west whilst delivering his masters. Not a republican or a conservative.
Trump and the conservatives as well as their kosher opposition in this controlled dialectic, the leftists and liberals, are all ticks actually.
This post is about the outdoors.

>>2819733
Sure, sure. So let's assume that there's a massive, secretive campaign spanning multiple generations with the goal of spreading lyme-infested ticks. Tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent toward this goal. For what purpose?

>>2819728
>chart shows a sharp spike in the current day
So...temperatures are rising and that's allowing ticks to spread more easily? The world being hotter in the past has nothing to do with this. If it gets hotter, period, ticks can spread more. You think insects are sitting there like
>ok guys it's getting warmer but it's still a lot colder than it was 250 million years ago so i guess we're still not allowed to migrate

>>2819734
That's an impressive straw man you've built there, really. It's wild how you guys lock into your programming so hard the second you get triggered, and then obviously the person who set you off must be some caricature of the political positions you dislike.

Lyme being spread intentionally makes no sense as a conspiracy theory. The only lyme conspiracy that's even vaguely plausible (because we've found human remains from thousands of years ago that showed evidence of lyme infection) is that it was released accidentally at some point. The idea that the government is spreading it intentionally is retarded.

The worst areas of lyme are in all of those New England regions where the old money elites live, the same people who would supposedly be behind this conspiracy. Why would they be putting all this effort into releasing bioweapons into their own backyard?

>>2819777
Yeah.. lyme totally existed thousands of years ago.. It's definitely not a lie they put out to cover their own asses.
Do you believe everything you're told?

>>2819790
>dodging the question
Can't say I'm surprised. That's how it goes with your type, right? Any tough questions that make your theory less plausible, just pretend they don't exist...

Let's try again: The worst areas of lyme are in all of those New England regions where the old money elites live, the same people who would supposedly be behind this conspiracy. Why would they be putting all this effort into releasing bioweapons into their own backyard?

>>2814240 (OP)
I know nothing about illnesses but one got on my dick the other day and it was a huge pain to get off. Avoid and kill them at all costs

I keep having this nightmare were I pull down my pants and there are a thousand ticks on my dick, then realizing that I no longer feel my dick, then collapsing on my knees in a panic attack because I think inside the dream that the thicks have permanently damaging my nerves.

This panic attacks always agitate me so much to the point I manage to wake up from it

>>2819777
from facts like
>military base working with ticks created high and dense population of ticks with lyme disease, that escaped their island
to strawman like
>uh, you say it was government that signed papers to infect whole world with ticks just like in movies?
they were working on bioweapon, they always work on it
or they were just scientists working with tick to understand diseases they spread, and to find possible cures, you need to work on infected people
but one smelly thing you cant deny
>military base

>>2817132
Elaborate for a fellow kittycat enjoyer?
>>2818164
Heh

>>2814240 (OP)
No, only juvenile instars of a certain species carry lyme disease and lyme disease is easy to treat. This is on top of those said species residing in a particular area. I'm more bothered by mosquito borne diseases and chagas because their pathophysiology is way more scarier.
>>2814263
Same, the adults don't bother me as much as the last couple of subadult instars.

>>2814262
So $0.50 instead of $1.00?

>>2814263
The last time I had a tick it was so tiny that I probably failed to remove it properly and its head must have remained under the skin. I removed the tick within 4-6 hours of the bite. The small bite mark remained for over two months and it was itchy for a few weeks. I could easily have contracted some disease and probably did.

>>2817000
My neighbour's dog gets about 2-3 ticks per day from March to May. Last week the dog literally sniffed the grass by the side of the road for 10 seconds and got one.

>>2820216
>lyme disease is easy to treat
u wot? lyme is a notorious bitch to treat
if you catch it shortly after being bitten then yes it's not that bad and you can nuke it with antibiotics
if you don't notice or get an asymptomatic bite that gives it time to spread then you're fucked; you will be spending years recovering IF you recover at all

>>2814240 (OP)
The only tick I ever found attached to me gave me lyme disease and I got it from just walking around the town. Made me quite paranoid about these fucks.

>>2814240 (OP)
It just makes you really tired. Then you take antibiotics and it's gone in like 2 days.
Nothing burger meant by god to filter out genetic dead ends.

Here is how I see it:
The odds of getting a disease from a single mosquito bite is about 0.25% roughly based on me adding together random statistics I found.
The odds of a tick having Lyme's is apparently around 3%, but not every bite transmits, and they have to be attached for over a day.
So I reckon they are roughly comparable in transmission rate.
Personally I have been bit by probably well over 5,000 mosquitoes and I have never been notably ill from them.
I have hiked all over the US and I go hiking a lot, I have only really been bit by ticks maybe 30 times, or at least that is how many times I have noticed.
Ticks are just much more rare. Additionally Lyme's is completely treatable with antibiotics.
No one worries about skeeters so I wouldn't worry about ticks.

>>2814240 (OP)
Is it true that taking garlic pills/eating a lot of garlic is a good way to make ticks bug off?

>>2814240 (OP)
After never seeing a lonestar tick in my part of the country before, I have found 7 on me this year. Today I had one in my armpit that may have been down but I'm hopeful it actually didn't. When I found it, it was still standing on it's legs and it hasn't left a mark or itchiness in the 6 hours since I got it off of me. I thought I felt a pop when I grabbed him up but it may have just been an armpit hair or something. Really hope I don't get alpha-gal.

>>2820261
>My neighbour's dog gets about 2-3 ticks per day from March to May. Last week the dog literally sniffed the grass by the side of the road for 10 seconds and got one.
Last summer I pulled over on the highway in NJ because my 4 year old had to pee and couldn't hold it. I physically kept him from touching the long grass, but when we got back in the truck he had 2 ticks on him. I didn't know these niggers could jump.

>>2814262
had a tick on my dick once and didnt know then fucked my gf :( we both felt very violated

>>2814413
same bro live in East Haddam. we are at ground zero

>2821326
>went to the cidery near moodus and sat outside
>didn't feel the tick climb up to my chest and bite in
is it over for me bros

>>2821326
Cucked by a tick
Damn

>>2814240 (OP)
>be me
>go out every week, often several times per week, for ~20 years in a supposedly heavily tick infested area
>only ticks I've ever seen were on dying or severly sick animals
Ticks are a meme.

Tick hysteria is partly justified, but often exaggerated in public perception. Here’s a breakdown:

Why It Is Justified:
• Lyme disease: Ticks, especially black-legged (deer) ticks, can transmit Lyme disease, which can lead to serious long-term symptoms if untreated.
• Other diseases: Ticks can also carry Rocky Mountain spotted fever, anaplasmosis, babesiosis, and more.
• Geographic spread: Due to climate change and rising deer populations, ticks are showing up in more places, even in cities and suburbs.

Why It’s Overblown:
• Not every tick carries disease: Most tick bites do not lead to illness.
• Infection requires time: A tick generally needs to be attached for 24–36 hours to transmit Lyme disease.
• Effective prevention exists: Wearing long clothing, using repellents like DEET or permethrin, and doing tick checks work well to avoid bites.

Bottom Line:

Be cautious and take preventive measures, but don’t panic. Awareness is smart; fear is usually unnecessary.

Man I was snoozin and woke up to piss and when I went back in bed I felt a pinch on the back of my knee and sure enough i pulled a tick off. Washed hands and washed the bite area with alcohol swabs. Hurts tho stupid lil bastard shoulda stayed in the woods plenty of food there now you’re fuckin dead arachshit

>>2817991
Why… why are you right… it’s too strong a correlation, a disease that was never a problem for 199 years of European settlement on the continent up to that point, not a single documented case… and all of a sudden… can the Feds quit thinking their 200 IQ geniuses?
They literally turned the American outdoors into a 3,000 Hospital bill on insurance.

>>2814240 (OP)
Absolutely not. I've had tics dozens of times and I am none the worse for it.

>>2821972
Not for long
The Feds will always lose control of their monsters.
I hope I’m wrong.

>>2821967
>>2821973
Goes to
>>2821972

>ask boomer father if there were any ticks back in his day
>none, even though his childhood was farming and walking, running and laying in grass, hay fields and such
they just won in every single part of life

>>2819650
Stop raping kids

>>2821967
>>2821973
Reported cases each year are currently 90,000 in 2023.
Compounding occurs if cases continue to rise to the 100,000 to 200,000 threshold.
Over the span of 30 years this could mean as many as 3 million-6 million infections.
Accounting for future population growth, AND potential per annum contact.
This would mean as many as 1 in 100 Americans diagnosed with it sometime in their lives.
With chronic Lyme disease complications arising in 10-20% of people.

>>2821967
>>2821973
>>2822080
I sound like a plebbitor with this Karen worrying but still,
Worth noting?

>>2821967
>>2821973
>>2822080
>>2822081
Also potential impact on wild-life, everything from kittens to deer population and meat and hunting

To outdoor recreational walk encouraging people like those in Niagara Furniture to stay where they are versus move.

Yes it is. My dog had 3 ticks on him last time camping even with permythrin and staying in a cabin. He also has lyme disease from them. Fuck ticks and the federal government for creating lyme.

>>2814240 (OP)
>went stomping around in a tall grassy area at night for several hours along a river with no bug protection
>no ticks
God, I'm powerful.

Ticks were never a problem my whole life, as a kid we'd play in the woods and grass all day and we'd never see a tick. Up until a couple years ago I'd walk through grass, lie on it without any problems, but within the last few years suddenly they're EVERYWHERE, even after a few cold Winters it's done nothing to thwart them

I don't understand how they're so impossibly tough. any other bug is obliterated by simple finger flicks or taps, but I've pressed these things as hard as I could between my fingernail and a hard table and it's just totally fine. I flick them as hard as I could when one is crawling on my clothes and sometimes they just fucking tank them, not hurt and still clinging on. when they bite you you need a machine to pull them out. fucking superpowered little shits

>>2825037
Same. My entire life until 5ish years ago I literally never saw a tick. Now it's not uncommon to find 1 or 2 on me after being inna woods even briefly.

My grandfather lived his whole life in the northern rural midwest and never saw a tick.

Shit sucks.

>>2814249
nailed it look at the screen obey the screen love the screen watch the screen hold the screen touch the screen ( thiiicccccccssss

I will say this again. Played in the woods all my life in north AL and southern TN, i rarely got ticks as a kid and teen years. 5 years ago i moved to a farm in TN and have spent so much time in the woods and gardening, tall grass and brush. I had only a few ticks in past 5 years but this year ive pulled 20 or so off me. I barely touch any brush and get one. Never seen a lonestar tick in my life but have found 12 on me this year, two bites. My gpa says all there used to be was lonestar but im almost 30 and had never seen one. The tick explosion this year is insane.

>>2825053
they've evolved specifically to attach on animals of all kinds and hold onto them for dear life after all. Multiple times I've removed ones that I thought to be dead (like one that had been on my ass for over 24 hours and it seemed like it hadn't even managed to suck any blood) and yet after the removal they immediately tried walking away like it was nothing

>>2814240 (OP)
As someone who lives in a wooded area and works in overgrown often woody areas, yes. I know multiple people who had their lives changed because they had to completely change their diets due to no longer being able to consume certain foods like red meat. Of course they adapt but it sucks. Ticks carry some extremely nasty diseases. At this point wearing long sucks, long pants and long sleeves if you go anywhere near any type of grass, it's that bad right now. I got the early stages of lyme and it was only discovered when someone saw the bullseye on the back because I just happened to go swimming at a pool party, and had to take antibiotics to avoid getting lyme. I already found a lone star tick on me that thankfully didn't bite, but I almost lost the ability to eat almost anything right then and there and never being able to eat red meat again.