Thread 2835029

Time to settle the great debate for good
Which one is better for the outdoors?

>>2835029 (OP)
If you want wilderness go deep into the amazon rainforest, maybe siberia or antarctica. You won't find it anywhere else, neither in europe nor USA.

>>2835030
there are plenty of places in russia and australia and probably canada that are still real wilderness

>>2835070
Not if the Canadian urbanites and elites burn every forest to the ground

>>2835029 (OP)
This was posted by an American.

europa is so beautifvl...

look at the splendor of france

>>2835079
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pinus_taeda_plantation.jpg

>>2835094
beat me to it.
>>2835075
Doesn't change that he's right, though. Always makes me lol when burgers on here talk about getting an /out/ car, then bring up stock subarus and heavy pickups. Even here in Germany's woods, where trails are already pretty good compared to most of Europe, anything bigger or lower than a SJ or Wrangler will get stuck.

>>2835095
Back in my day, trolling had some effort behind it.

Europeans will take a train to the top of a mountain and claim to be in “nature”

>>2835030
>If you want wilderness
define "wilderness"

>>2835126
Land without development or economic use, with an intact, native ecosystem
We actually have hundreds of wilderness areas in the US, mostly in the west anf Alaska. It’s just that they’re typically “islands” of wilderness surrounded by development or resource extraction, regardless of how big or small (some of them in Montana and Wyoming are fucking huge, bigger than European countries).
The only vast expansive wilderness in the world is probably siberia, the arctic, the Amazon, etc though

>>2835029 (OP)
Unless you live in the ACTUAL northen parts of Scandinavia, this just ain't true. Everything below is just the same as the pictures on the right, fucking depressing. But I'm a Swede, maybe the Norwegians got it better because god damn those mountains turn me on just like big ass titties.

>>2835030
>You won't find it anywhere else


>>2835131
>with an intact, native ecosystem
Greater Yellowstone Ecosytem is that as is the NCDE

>islands of wilderness
are still wilderness

>vast expansive
further qualifying...

Are you really gonna go with the Frank Church or Bob Marshall are not "wilderness"

>>2835137
i like how 80% of our country is all trees and yet 90% of the """wilderness""" is all owned by deforestation companies owned by rich elites from stockholm. can't fish anywhere without license or cut down for winter survival, they got scouts everywhere and will fuck you up

>>2835140
>*zooms in on lake*
>1-5 cabins
>*zooms in on lake 50 miles from nearest road*
>1-5 cabins
>*zooms in on 100 other lakes*
>100-500 cabins
where do we escape

I'm pretty happy with my dayhiking options (1/2h to 1 1/2h driving) and my casual hiking options (literally 10 minutes walking from my front door). The areas are nice, though obviously used economically. Don't think the average american has much better stuff available close by, plus I'm not triggered by seeing villages on my hike (seeing in the distance, not walking through). Where europe really falls flat is real wilderness. It can be found in scandinavia (very few biomes) and nowhere else. We don't have appalachians or rocky mountains or deserts (spain comes close in some places I guess, but it's still far more densely populated). It is what it is. Frankly, I don't think we could do much more to improve the outdoors - in germany there are strict zoning laws so there's no houses dotting the countryside, it's all concentrated in the villages, which I like. Not like that everywhere in europe. The forests are increasingly mixed and more natural, and foresty areas are often interlaid with meadows and orchards instead of fields.

>>2835138
I wasn’t hating on US wildernesses, I love going to them, I’m just saying outside of montana/idaho/Wyoming tristate area and Alaska there isn’t enough wild area. For example all of the “nature” in the PNW is actually just clear cut logging plantations. I would like to see more of the temperate rainforest and redwoods restored and rewilded.
>>2835140
There is only like 1 natural forest in the entire European continent and it’s slated to be logged soon. All the rest of your “nature” is man made forests and agricultural land, even the alps and highlands

>>2835148
So this
>>2835030
>if you want wilderness go deep into the amazon rainforest, maybe siberia or antarctica. You won't find it anywhere else, neither in europe nor USA.

isnt you?

>>2835149
No nigga this is me
>>2835131
>>2835148
Everyone else is some other people

>>2835029 (OP)
stay the fuck out of the USA yurofaggot

>>2835149
Please go back to plebbit or any other namefagging outlet if you refuse to produce ad hominems (You)s or whatever you're trying to do.
Why are people so important to normies. Go to such a place then, where people matter more than arguments.
>>2835030
This is me and my only other post ITT.
(You)fags must leave.
>>2835070
>Canada
I really doubt that
>Russia eh kinda
Anyways this really depends on the definition of 'Wilderness'. But you do get my general sentiment, right? Humanity is like the mold growing on an apple after it falls to the ground. Humans and their livestock make up what, 95%+ of the total mammalian biomass on earth?
>>2835126
This guy get's it. It depends. I guess the most wilderness is at the seafloor. But whats the point?
I admit I can not. 'Untouched' but every place on earth has been touched. We know they even find the petrochemical societies traces in the most unlikely places.
>>2835138
There's always a logging roads within a few days walk, random stupid scientific stations, military installations and what not.

>>2835244
>Please go back to plebbit or any other namefagging outlet if you refuse to produce ad hominems (You)s or whatever you're trying to do. Why are people so important to normies. Go to such a place then, where people matter more than arguments.

What the fuck is this gibberish?

>>2835244
I mean what do you expect dude. There’s 8 billion people on earth and we’ve discovered and exploited every inch of land area on the planet. Instead of complaining that there’s a logging road 20 miles away, just be glad that the American had the foresight to protect his wilderness and wild lands in the first place.
Just think, we could have ended up like Europe, with their shitty tree plantation forests and complete lack of any wildlife

>>2835348
>shitty tree plantation forests and complete lack of any wildlife
A lot of forests are being restructured into more natural mixed forests. And there is wildlife, it's just shy because of hunting pressure.

Europeans wish they had long trails.

>>2835344
>What is this
(You) seem to have no concept of the idea and design behind anonymous image boards in the style of futaba and behave like a redditor. Please go back and make a user account there or at least tripfag so (You) can be (You) and bathe in your ego illusion while dismissing arguments over people.
>>2835348
>Tree plantation forests
This is very much vorrect. In our defense: Forests here have been cultivated much more intensely during the medieval times. People really needed whatever they can get. It's more extensive use now but it will never be old growth again.
>>2835350
>being restructured
correct
>natural mixed forests
why assume a 'more natural' forest is a mixed forest? There is only one way to have a 'more natural' forest: Leave it the fuck alone. Don't structure anything. In my area that will, for many locations mean, beech monoculture. Because that is the natural state of those sites and how beech works.
>>2835353
Yeah it's a shame. Europe is just very tiny and very densely populated.
>inb4 lappland

>>2835148
>>2835244
>>2835393
I'm not reading any of that. Stop mass replying and desperately attempting to defend your point; you already lost.

>>2835070
A lot of Alaska is still wilderness

>>2835148
>Alaska
>not enough wilderness for me

Jesus christ

>>2835393
>Doubles down on retard speak
>(You) seem to have no concept
Your projection is hilarious! lol

>>2835123
Nah, we built those trains to milk money from japanese and american tourists, mostly.
>>2835144
>dayhiking options
>(1/2h to 1 1/2h driving)
Kek, unless you're living in central Berlin and driving a 25km/h scooter, those numbers are bullshit. Even getting from the center of Frankfurt, München or Stuttgart to the nearest woods only takes around 30 mins.
>in germany there are strict zoning laws so there's no houses dotting the countryside
Lol, try again, burger. We don't have "zoning laws" at all, that's an american concept. What we have are environmental protection laws, and those have so many exceptions that everybody can build a house in the middle of nowhere. Only reason (most) people don't is that they'd also be required to connect that house to the grid, which gets prohibitively expensive.

>>2835144
>strict zoning laws in germany
KEK.
Your observstion is right that most dwellings are found in concentrations here. But there is no zoning laws, which is why the towns for example. do not resemble the US american towns.
Theres actually a very common thing here where some residential adresses street part simply translates to 'outside' as if that was a street. All buildings outside the settlement are just numbered consecutively so your address is that meaningless number, outside, town that incorporstes the land.
What germany does not really have is unincorporated land and much public land. It is sad but the country financed itself for a long time by privatizing public land. In case of meadows, forests and what not this does not restrict your freedom to visit it.
One thing that is really gay in germany is that they now even have some official public camp grounds designed to keep wild camping away but it's unironically like: You have to go on a website, transfer 15€ and be gone at 10am. No thanks I stick with camping wild. I also prefer something like
>picrel
those are usually set up and maintained by hiking clubs and litter the countryside. You can just put a mat inside or hang a hammock. It's a roof. Not much more.
>There's no wilderness in europe.
No shit. Europe has been inhabited by civilized people for thousands of years. Every spot in europe had several wars fought over it and was used in some capacity. There's relatively remote spots in Sami and some in spain but nothing I'd call wilderness.

>>2835557
I have a wood right outside my door, and I can easily do a full day of hiking without really leaving it. Don't think that applies to most germans though. I don't day hike there because there are more interesting places and larger unbuilt areas in 1/2 hours of driving from me.
>Lol, try again, burger. We don't have "zoning laws"
>>2836693
I probably misused the term because I am not american but german.

>>2836695
Then you know many cases of an adress using 'außenliegend', as the street name. Literally dwellings so far out because someone just built that there, that the closest road either doesn't really have a name or doesn't give you even the remotest idea where the premises are actually located (like several more km off the road).
So it's not a legal phenomenon why people here choose to build within town limits.
I actually remember a guy from my area who would even just built in 'Naturschutzgebiet' so natural reserve. That actually is a big nono but those zones are rare asf to begin with.
The guys reasoning was that he is fully aware of it being illegal and that the court will order him to remove the building which he will then do. But he argued it would take them so and so many years to run the proceedings through all the courts and until then the house stands. Also he would on the other hand save alot of money because he wouldnt need to build to code etc. anyways.
To my knowledge the house still stands and the guy isn't actually wrong. He's getting alot for the total cost of the project divided by the time he gets to use it.

>huehue Euros have no forests
Do mutts really believe this?

>>2836695
>I probably misused the term because I am not american but german.
Suuuure. Feel free to write the German term, then. Because there's literally no law against building outside of town. The closest thing are different requirements for getting a building permit inside of "continous areas with buildings" (on the off chance that you're actually German, and just retarded: "zusammenhängende Bebauung") and outside of them. But those differences are minimal, and can be freely ignored by the city unless national parks or environmental protection gets involved. Where I live (western border) for example, the edge of the nearest forest has houses pretty much every 200-500m for several km. Always just one or two, then a large gap. All built by people who wanted to build outside the city.

>>2835029 (OP)
Even though the UK is nearly all private farmland, we have an extensive network of footpaths so you can walk everywhere. For example this is a map of every public footpath in North Yorkshire.

>>2836701
/out/ might be the board with the most overlap with /pol/ so don't be surprised if your average poster here thinks all of Europe is basically a continent-wide mix of London, Berlin and the Netherlands.

>>2835094
bodied that golem freak

>>2835094
muttsisters...

>>2835148
>all of the “nature” in the PNW is actually just clear cut logging plantations.

lol, have you been to the North Cascades? It is the most rugged wilderness in the lower 48.

>>2835079
>France
>not Alps
Why would anyone want to /out/ there? There's so many better places like Slovakia

Nigga is this board retarded? I am romanian and i have seen a shitton of roe deer in my area, and i live in an industrial place.

I have been inside forests, theyre oak forests, i have not met anyone in my entire life of /out/ing. I have heared jackals howling, I have met foxes, I have seen alot of wild boar poop

What is Europe to this board? Is it just fucking westren europe? Have you guys ever opened that darned app called google earth, and looked at the east of europe and the balkans? Have you looked at eastren poland? Lithuania? Belarus? Ukraine? Serbia? Bulgaria? I can go on

Idk whats this boards deal with europe. We still have a shitton of wildlife thats more beautifiul than american one (Fallow deer are absolute moggers) and alot of goddamn forests.

Is the west europe the only europe that mutts see on this board? Open fucking google earth and take a damn look around europe. It extends until Ural mountains btw

Its really time to end this europe vs US argument. Europe has shit, okay, good and excellent /out/ places, just like US does.

i would rather have eastren european nature than american

>>2835078
>>2835079
Those are dead forest as in no animals live there and those trees are grown for agriculture purposes only.

>>2837011
animals do live there aswell but yeah theyre very poor in biodiversity

>>2837012
By animals you mean insects and rodents and small carnivores.

>>2837014
By animals I mean wild boars and deer

Heres the way its done in Poland from what I heared, where they have high pine monoculture.

The animals use the pine forest for sleeping, occasional eating during spring/summer and hiding. During summer and autumn, the animals use the farms as food source. And during winter, in Europe they not only use feeders but also seeds from the cones.

Anyways, I researched more and chatgpt said missouri has around 0.11-0.30 hogs per km2, while westren poland for example (where the forests are pretty much pines, such as Tuchola) has 0.91-1 boars per km2

So yes, those pine forests arent great man but they arent unliveable deserts.

The best fix to this, while maintaining industrial needs and ecological needs would be to pretty much add oaks aswell, not only to alkalize the soil but also for acorns.

^^ This would benefit agriculture aswell as the animals

Im happy that polish foresters have started to add more birch, aspen and oaks into their lands

Anyways, back to my point about USA vs Europe, US has alot of pine monocultures like this, and they look way worse aswell, with 0 greeness. Atleast the polish pine forests have moss, mushrooms and berries

>>2837016
The main point im trying to make is that yeah pine monocultures arent great but they arent unliveable deserts, theyre still woodland and CAN support wildlife.

Adding additional mix of oaks and aspen to large pine forests would greattly improve the biodiversity already by a shitton

Also, in my personal opinion, i think they look nice. I like the green carpet of moss

>>2836992
>What is Europe to this board? Is it just fucking westren europe?
Matter of fact, americans have serious problems understanding that europe is not just britain.

>>2835029 (OP)
As an amerilard whos been to europe several times, I actually prefer that Europe has less trees. My state is just endless second growth forest which gets boring eventually. I'd rather meadows and open grassy fields with little lizards running around.

>>2835030
>>2835244

You can find it in Canada, hell you can even find it in Ontario if you go north of Huron. Lots of old ancient growths untouched up there.

What is your definition of "Wilderness"? Because I can you right now most of Canada is essentially that.

>>2837221
You know the "great plains" are in America

>>2837246
Canada's population density and size put it about equal to Europe c300 BC to 1 AD. The most sparsely populated sub national unit on Earth outside of Antarctica is actually in Canada not Siberia. And to put things into perspective the lower 48 of the USA still has at least 60,000 sq mi (155,400 sq km) of old growth forest (estimates and classifications vary), much more in the mature forest category (not quite old growth but mature 100+ year old 2nd or 3rd growth). Most of the old growth category is in the western USA on public lands (especially inland western USA), but a lot of the mature category is in the eastern USA as well. Euros (excluding Russians) cannot comprehend big nation geography, even a state like Arizona has the same land and forest area as Italy with 13% of the population and a density still lower than Sweden or European Russia and has a city that gets more total snowfall (238cm) than any European city of similar or larger size (including European Russia) the closest contender I know of being Rovaniemi Finland way farther north than AZ and maybe one or two cities in the alps, that's it. Most of Canada and Alaska are in the same category of wilderness as Siberia, similar environments and climates to. Australia and Brazil have huge wilderness to but totally different climates.

>>2837199
>tfw from A zone
>want snow, move up north to F zone
>F zone gets snow, gone within a day or two
i have been deceived and will be moving to an I zone now.

>>2837452
Even some of the I category might only have 20-30 snowy days a winter (this means sparse but extremely heavy snowfall followed by drier periods) even with 200 freezing nights a year. Another type is places in the F or G category but spread out over 100 snowy days, this means extremely light but common snowfalls. There's a whole science to snow and climate types. Most of the great plains and eastern USA and middle elevations of the intermountain west are sparse but heavy type, but in the colder zones a single snowfall may hang around for weeks or months on the ground.

Can ppl ITT already stop with this false equivalency of population density and /out/ quality?
Pure autism.

>>2837465
High population density = lower quality outdoors. Universally. It also is equated with more farmland or agricultural land (ecological deserts) and more direct environmental pollution. Every single river in the eastern USA below about 1500m elevation has industrial pollution, even though the water may look fine it will test with pollutants at much higher rates than background atmospheric drift. Forests are also much more disturbed in high population density areas, resulting in thinner less diverse stands. And these are traits in well managed high density areas, in poorly managed high density areas like eastern China and all of India, you have straight up ecological collapse and environmental destitution even in areas without industry. Most of European ancient forests and forested area was decimated by industry and is now occupied by agricultural fields to keep the roughly 700 million people from starving or the 35 million farmers from going broke.

>>2837465
The only place where this doesn't apply is true tropical jungle, because you can be 10' from a drilling site in a jungle and not see/hear anything. When I was working in southern Mexico, we cut a construction site through the jungle, and if you walked "into the woods" ten feet away you were completely lost. That's assuming you can even walk into that shit to begin with. It's a green wall. Other than that, >>2837468
is right and it's not even a debate.

On another note. The British isles, low countries, and Italy are food insufficient on a calorie basis even with most of their land area being dedicated to agriculture. Germany is often listed as being right on the edge of sufficiency but still needs imports from France and eastern Europe. Roughly 40% of continental Europe is dedicated to agriculture now and it is believed that almost all of that used to be forest or woodland prior to Roman times.

I love my area of Appalachia. I bought 10 acres at very reasonable cost. My property is in an area that is mostly national forest and for that reason is very lightly populated. A 200 acre state wildlife sanctuary borders my western property line. Appalachia has a moderate climate, lush vegetation, abundant sunshine and rainfall. We have strong storms that bring heavy rain that quickly pass leading to sunny days. These strong passing storms provide us ample rain while allowing a high percentage of sun during the day. Portions of Appalachia are designated as temperate rain forest.
Appalachia has a tremendous amount of freshwater streams and rivers enabling an abundance of fish and wildlife, including large game such as white tail deer, feral pigs and black bears.
Appalachia also has a rugged, independent, even rebellious population. Appalachia's rugged terrain, moderate climate, abundant fresh water and game make it a perfect area for the guerrilla war fighter.
There are many reasons that US Army Green Berets and Rangers retire to Appalachia. It is a place that calls people steeped in guerrilla warfare home.
Picrel is my horse grazing in a sunlit pasture next to an Appalachian mountain lake 900 feet from his barn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vrEljMfXYo

>>2835393
Ure right about evropean forests I agree anon

>>2837733
>copy pasta
why?

>>2837791
I like to promote Appalachia. It seems like the political left always wants to run Appalachia and the people of Appalachia down. Appalachia has been very good to me and I want to fight the leftist propaganda that derides Appalachia and Appalachians.
If I cut and paste 2+2 = 4 does it make it less true ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDfBxudHWIA

>>2837793
>the leftist propaganda
lol. cucked by his own retardation. many such cases. sad!

>>2837793
that cover is so bad. im embarrassed for those people.

>>2837811
>>2837812
No one cares what 2 urban turbo faggot twinks that never touch grass think.