Why should the middle and upper class own the means of production if they are not the one who actually produce anything?

>>510254160 (OP)
communism failed loser

>>510254160 (OP)
When I say eat the rich, I’m talking about cannibalism, personally.

>>510254160 (OP)
Why do commies think that being hired to make something for someone who pays for all the overhead have complete ownership?
build your own to compete

>>510254160 (OP)
Answer is easy.
He has to steal and sell the result of his own 1 hour work.

he didn't make it. he transformed it. if he thinks he so valuable then why is he working for someone else? let him make stuff himself and sell it himself, nobody is preventing him.

>>510254160 (OP)

Why doesn't he just quit his job and make them at home? Then he could sell them for a profit.

>>510254160 (OP)
did you pay for the material?
did you pay for the machine that was used to press the parts?
did you pay for the land the factory was built on?
did you pay for the factory?
did you pay for the power that runs the machine?

>>510254160 (OP)
>I make 3000 an hour
Nigger, the machine your boss owns makes 3000 an hour from the materials he buys, and he takes all the risk for you to hit a button, go start your own business if it's that easy or fuck off.

>>510254160 (OP)
>1 post by this ID
eh

>has to work
he doesn't, he can just leave
can't say the same for workers in communist countries though (who also have to work for an entire month to afford even one of those)

>>510254160 (OP)
I am a landlord.

>>510254567
Paying for things with money you leech off other people isnt work

>>510254636
Barriers to entry

>I press a button on a 5 million dollar machine. I deserve to own the factory now!
Why does everybody end up starving to death when these people take control of a nation?

>>510254160 (OP)
Capitalism is the only moral system, logical proof here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmcmauM78FE

>>510254160 (OP)
>using machinery and technology paid for by the people he works for

He doesn't make them, he presses the button to make the machine make them.

>>510254740
Because kulaks burn the grain supply

meme commie an hero nao

>>510254465
So many annoying things in this one

>>510254567
>>510254776
Exactly, why can't he make the three he needs?

>>510254465
>>510254811
It's night time the guy is clearly drunk

>>510254524
The bank doesn't want to invest into a designated consumer . Plumage in the nose/know

>>510254160 (OP)
Communism is just an outrage reaction against low wages.
If wages were higher communism would become meaningless.

>>510254740
>proletariat 14
now I want to see the rest too lol

Why should the ones who seized the Means of Production still enthrall themselves to a corrupt central banking institution? The only thing the Bankers of London create is fake money as they parasitize Labor.

>>510254160 (OP)
Leftoids are very bad at accounting. Who knew?

>>510254879
they don't want higher wages anon they just want to complain about wanting higher wages
big difference

>private property rights exist because ummmm they just do okay its like my jew god of greed yahweh

>>510254160 (OP)
>rubber jerry-can gaskets
Bullshit, I found this shit on US amazon, it’s 5 bucks for 5

>>510254160 (OP)
Because they paid for these means of production. Meaning they worked before to get money to buy the machine and they have plenty of these machines, they could operate themselves but they have no time to do so so they hire people who have time to do so and pay them for their time to operate machines. They do not pay them for production of anything.

>>510254465
I guess it's a carnival game: get it in in 1 single stroke

>>510255034
99% of business niggers have never worked a day in their lives and the 1% that do were nepo hires at their dads company

>>510254636
If Youre not jewish or freemason, youre not getting a loan.

>>510254864
If you can not hammer a nail from 20 hits (even if you are blackout drunk), then you are a woman.

Since it's such a basic part yet still so expensive those are probably quality tested out the ass with highly precise machinery which all needs to be maintained by the other employees

>>510254879
then why are rich people including basically all tech workers communists

>>510255186
Hey look its that commie guy

>>510254567
yes
>takes out million dollar loan to fund business
>bank uses millions of deposits to fund loans for rich
>bank deposits are from workers
>worker makes 3000 widgets for 3 widgets per hour
>rich man and bank laugh as they split profit

>>510254160 (OP)
Okay so he should be able to open his factory and keep all the profit, right? Oh no he can't cause he doesn't own anything of value. And he doesn't pay anyone and he doesn't own a building, etc. He deserves a pay, a decent living wage. But he probably also supports the cheap illegal immigrant labor that will take his job.

>>510255186
because they are atheists and bored

>>510255242
Looks like Mexican Kikess President a bit here

>>510255186
Because they want to do away with physical ownership of their products and enforce a subscription-only model to increase profits.

print money in the federal money printer, it takes 1000 years for me to earn what I produce in an hour

>>510254160 (OP)
Why do commie fags continue to not understand wage expenses of others as well as additional non-wage expenses?
>Cost to design/develop
>Cost to acquire production machinery
>Cost to market/promote
>Cost to distribute
>Cost to rent/lease a factory
>Cost to pay utilities
>Cost to pay taxes
It's always the same child-tier argument
>This thing costs x and I only make 1/1000x
>capitalism has failed
Are commies so self-centered that they literally can't conceive of anything that doesn't involve them directly? Or are they just so retarded that they can't understand things that don't involve them directly? The answer is yes.

>>510254160 (OP)
Slo lower the value of those grommets or whatever to like whatever fuck all then, now he can afford 3000 of them for an hour of his work, genius.
Now the company is also unable to pay for his salary and he has to be let go, now he's unemployed and the landlords will evict him from his $1400 a month 28 square foot apartment because he's already 6 months behind on his rent due to wasting all his money on avocado lattes and pup cups.

>>510255681
its a retarded argument yes, the guy understands how weak his argument is thats why he hides how much that thing cost

is it $8?

>>510254811
For me it's his tiny forearms.

>>510255681
>Are commies so self-centered that they literally can't conceive of anything that doesn't involve them directly? Or are they just so retarded that they can't understand things that don't involve them directly?
Just read these threads. TO layer on a bit more irony ask any of these whiny cunts what they do for work.

>>510254160 (OP)
>Middle class isn't the ones producing
Huh? It's the rich trying to lose the lower classes to bash the middle class. Granted, many of the managerial and other positions like to siphon from the actual middle class workers.

>>510255681
>all work of other people
>after this you have a fat profit margin for whats glorified admin work done by the owner(s) because they have the capital to get past barriers to entry

>>510254740
Let me fix this for you

"I Want to sell teacups"
"I am jewish so I got a loan from my bank connections for 2% interest and a loan from the government for "small business ( only nonwhites and jews allowed)" I used the loaned money to buy this machine, paid for by YOUR taxes. And now I pay you 1% of the money I make. I pay my loan back. If the business goes under I escape via bankrupcy and or your taxes bail me out. Lol. Sucks to be you. I use jewish tax evasion to not pay any taxes ( I made ZERO profit tee hee )

>>510254160 (OP)
How much did the machine he used to make them cost

>>510254160 (OP)
>two cent rubber gaskets
BTW you can cut gaskets out of a sheet by hand, CNC, and can 3d print gaskets in nylon, polyethylene or polyurethane, as well as casting silicone gaskets or just caulk.

>>510254864
>>510255121
The Hammer likely had a round head all it slips off the nail

>>510254160 (OP)
cuz its a fucking jewish fairytale that some incel came up with 150yrs ago. its last centurys greatest killing joke.
its nothing, its not a plan, or an actual functioning economic system. its literally just some jewish incel daydreaming about industrialized utopia, then trying to reverse engineer that (unsuccessfully) with muh based logic and reason

soviets actually unironically tried it, and quickly came to the conclusion that the only way to even TRY to get it to work was to rule through fucking terror, and pitting the various demographics they thought wouldnt fit the formula, against each other. thus the stasi, and gulags, and intentionally starving the peasantry cuz they were muh counter-revolutionary. and then idk lets rob a church cuz we accidentally caused a nation-wide famine by being retarded. and uhhh theyre counter-revolutionary anyways, so off to the tundra to die
cue almost a century of pure terror

cant even fucking imagine the kind of faggot that can look at the entire history of communism and see anything other than a monstrosity

>>510254160 (OP)
Does he
>pay for the machinery used to make them
>pay for the material used to make them
>pay for the shipping of the product to distributors and/or customers
>find distributors for the product or advertise the product to customers
>pay for the facility in which the product is made
>pay for the utilities of the facility in which the product is made
>pay for insurance on the facility in which the product is made as well as for the machinery in the facility
>pay for the cleaning and upkeep of the facility
>pay the wages of any other workers in the facility who help produce or facilitate the production of the product
>deal with all legal and tax matters related to the hiring and continued employment of himself and other employees of the company
>deal with all legal and tax matters related to the production and distribution of the product
>assume legal and financial liability for workplace accidents and violation of safety protocols
I could go on, but the answer is "no"

>>510254396
>build your own to compete
this confuses and enrages the gommie

>>510254160 (OP)
Reported for antisemitism.

>>510254257

>>510254465
I was waiting for the woman to get hit on the backswing.

>>510254343
I'll cheer on you anon
Chew that bone properly

>>510254160 (OP)
>Why should the middle and upper class own the means of production if they are not the one who actually produce anything?

>DERP WHAT IS CAPITAL?
>POST #537,684

Did dude buy the machines to make the ear muffs? Did he pay for the materials? Did he pay for the packaging? Did he package them? Did he pay for the marketing? Did he pay to have them distributed to stores?

Dude isn't magic tricking those fucking headphone pads out of thin air.

>>510255121
I looked at it twice... and I don't get what she was attempting to do with the batten.

>>510255121
Gotta protect your hearing from that loud hand drill

>>510256684
Benis goes vagoo
or something like that.
In every scenario pussy must be involved in the solution.

The funny part is the industries commies love to use as examples of "exploitation" are usually the ones with the lowest margins.
>the GREEDY factory owner is STEALING 90% of this workers productivity!
Manufacturing makes on average like $1.05 or less on the dollar.
Tech and finance are doing significantly more "exploitation" by this logic but they're known for high-paid employees so are less punchy to use as shitty propaganda for the economically illiterate.

>>510255121
>>>510256115 >>510256684 >>510256744
>retards on 4chan actually believe staged tiktok videos made for VIEWS AND LIKES from low iq cattle viewers

>>510254864
Are you retards serious? You need to hammer 10000 nails before you can get it with that strength every time

He's swinging it from the back and has 0 coordination. If you're not used to do it daily you're going to do what he does 100% of the time. In fact beginners still fuck up doing It slowly and carefully. It's like you retards have never ever been in a shop class. Oh wait, that's normal for zoomers and millennials. He's hammering it in a log too

>>510256977
yea thats who actually should go to the gulags
everyone who reposts tiktok vid and twatter screencaps
very much counter-revolutionary

>>510256977
We are living in a society, even if that's antisocial.

>>510254160 (OP)
The means of production isn't the profitable thing to own, if it was it wouldn't be shipped off to the lowest wage country.
Whats actually valuable is the IP and the research to make it and how.

The whole premise of Communism collapsed as soon as we got globalism. Because guess what the corpos don't need you and your labor at all.

>>510254160 (OP)
Because tools belong in the most competent hands, companies are no different from hammers and sickles in that sense.

>>510254160 (OP)
>I make 3000
>I
No, he doesn't. The machine he operates does. And that machine is worth 300 times what he is.

>>510257134
he's like a gypsy who goes to sweden on a holiday and unironically tells everyone he's swedish, for the rest of his life
and that wouldn't be sad if I wasn't speaking out of personal experience

>>510254160 (OP)
I MADE THAAAT
>no i didn't make the drilling equipment
>no i didn't drill the hydrocarbons
>no i didn't turn the precursor hydrocarbons into plastic
>no i didn't make the press
>no i didn't make the mold
you didn't make anything
>i pressed the plastic in the mold 3000 times
you are a sentient lever arm. that is your job
your job could be automated with a water wheel from the 1600s
your existence relies on the fact that the state needs padded GDP figures

>>510254160 (OP)
>should we work together to purchase or build our own "means of production"?
>no, let's just steal it
If the commie solution was employee owned companies everybody would be all for it, there's plenty of Hy-Vees. But the commie solution is always "steal it"

>>510254740
this but also if you get TOO rich you should be taxed even harder, and there will be no way to get around it with loopholes. You either cough up the money or the government seizes property. This will cause the rich to donate less of their money, but 95% of nationally funded donations are scams anyway and only local donations actually get shit done.
the money taken from you will be specifically used to pad the economic woes of capitalism for the average joe in a variety of ways

>>510254160 (OP)
What the fuck are even those and what do they do? Are they worth buying?
How much labor is actually pointless and simply for the sake of labor?

>>510255269
And what prevents "the workers" collectively doing this?

We have hacked the system so well that most of our money are just numbers, and all of the real effort end up going to keeping our ilk alive just so we can farm them for pharmabucks. Most of our food gets thrown out simply to keep the prices high, corn is nutritionally void yet subsidized by the government, yet also, our "betters" are so pampered that they would rather dump the "icky" hard labor elsewhere. We are doing so well, that everyone has forgotten how bad it can get.
>waaah I don't get paid enough
What else is he going to do? Sit at home and jack off?
Products are worthless, the consumer is worthless, just fucking flush it already.

>>510254160 (OP)
How much do you have to work to create the facility and machine that stamps them commie scum?

>>510254160 (OP)
Just steal a 100 pack lmao

>>510254160 (OP)
With what materials and machinery?
Something someone else has bought and paid for.
At the end of the day, there's nothing stopping you from starting your own business and do the work yourself, right? In fact in a capitalist society, it is encouraged. Unless of course there's a whole load of things that you are ignoring, which makes your point rather moot.

>>510256022
This.

The answer to this jewish occupation is NATIONAL SOCIALISM.

>>510254740
lel. corpo business suits like to imagine they're so important. they combined like 3 people in a business into one to make this seem justified. also, nobody trains employees anymore that's just a straight lie

>>510256684
She wanted to apply downward pressure while drilling into masonry but decided to be unsafe & funny for likes

>>510254396
Why don't you study Communism and find out you Slopbrained twat.

>>510256975
Landlords are the parasites

>>510256022
that's very presumptive that jewish people charge each other interest in the first place.

>>510260243
>Commie
>Calling others dumb
LMAO

>>510260289
Why?
>because I deserve a house for free

>>510254396
>build your own to compete
Every time that happens it actually goes really well. Amazingly, jew-run banks are not thrilled about advancing capital to worker-owned enterprise. But it is actually viable. It’s not an “own” it’s a recommendation for a solid path forward to a more equitable economy and an escape from capitalism and you SHOULD be seriously considering worker-owned cooperative manufacturing, distribution, and retail.

Credit unions are much more friendly to this form of business than banks (and also typically far less kiked) and there are also dedicated cooperative business financing organizations.

>>510254160 (OP)
Why? Because as you just proved with that image the workers are RETARDED beyond any reasonable measure. I would not trust this kind of people to do anything else than what they already do.

>>510257770
>You either cough up the money or the government seizes property.
This seems like a good plan. I'm sure people will be falling over each other to build successful businesses so that you trannies can steal everything from them!
>>510259174
That's very interesting. Tell us about how this actually played out in your own employment?
>>510260289
>parasites
What do you do for work?

>>510258701
>At the end of the day, there's nothing stopping you from starting your own business and do the work yourself, right? In fact in a capitalist society, it is encouraged
Cooperatives have a first-year failure rate of 10%, while privately-owned enterprise has a first-year failure rate of 80%. I don’t actually recall capitalism encouraging workers to start their own enterprises which is interesting because it seems like it goes really well and solves a lot of problems.

>>510254160 (OP)
i can 3d print that for pennies

>>510260618
Worker owned coops aren't anti capitalism. The fact that you can have something like that in a capitalistic society whereas you couldn't allow a capitalist coop in a communist society.
Commies don't actually care or know about economics though, they care about espousing communism

>>510254864
chad fucking lost, this is why chads can't survive without the other 80% doing actual work

if shit hits the fan these "chads" will be used as femboy holes

Oy vey

This is deeply antisemetic

>>510256202
Any business running at margins so thin that 2997/3000 of its expenses are non-labor is failing. There’s overhead on the facility and amortization of the instruments, sure, but it’s pennies on the dollar of production. Input costs are a more significant contributing factor but again, input cost should not be 99% of your cost.

The real cost is labor. Labor accounts for just under a third of all operating costs. So after the average 40% profit margin markup, the rest of the bloat on the retail price of that little piece comes down to
>paying 12 Deborahs in HR 6 figures each to drink coffee and send motivational emails once a month that nobody reads
>11 different Executive Vice Presidents making larger 6 figure sums, sitting in the board room office upstairs saying “synergistic productivity maximalization” to each other 3 times a week
>no fewer than 229 different middle managers, all also making 6 figures, sending interdepartmental emails about budget timetables and swapping excel spreadsheets back and forth with one another about quarterly productivity metrics
And on and on

>>510254257
>China enters the chat

>>510261207
>Worker owned coops aren't anti capitalism
They are. I’m not going to do the thousandth “Ayn Rand is not the arbiter of the definition of capitalism” argument. Democratically-operated worker-controlled production is socialism. If you disagree, feel free to be wrong, I don’t care. Join a co-op, that’s what I care about. You can call yourself an “entrepreneur” if it makes you feel better. It doesn’t matter. Join a co-op.

>>510254713
Like what?

>>510261514
You seem very experienced in business management. Why don't you start your own company that cuts out all that fat and put all those other dummies out of business?

>>510256022
These days it’s actually like
>I want to sell X
>I went on alibaba and found a supplier
>I ordered a shipping container worth
>I sold that shit on Amazon for 200% markup
>I wrote off all my tariffs and dock fees on my taxes as business expenses
>I used the cash flow to apply for a mega loan
>I bought bitcoin with the loan
>I know live off earnings of magical internet money
Worked for me at least

>>510254160 (OP)
thats just a bad pay plan, most companies in USA would have a nice tiered production compensation for this type of employment

>>510261900
>.... and then everybody on the bus started to clap.

>>510261815
>renting is a poverty trap
>”then why don’t you just buy a house!”
There’s a million dollar buy in to play the game, dipshit. One does not simply start a business, it requires an investment of capital. That’s how the power structure works. “You gotta spend money to make money”, and you gotta have money to spend money.

You know the single best predictor of success in entrepreneurship?
>recently received a large gift or inheritance
All of the most successful businesses were founded by people who already had family money. This is how it works. It doesn’t matter if you understand the business, you need the money. If you don’t have the money, you need to go to a bank, and that puts you right back where you started, with an idle capitalist money gatekeeper parasite siphoning off your earnings, forcing you to “compete” with a broken ankle against players who don’t carry that debt burden.

>>510262451
>There’s a million dollar buy in to play the game
So you believe there is literally no business you could start without 1 million dollars?
How much savings do you have? Do you have some good idea or a business plan? If you have a solid plan why not solicit investments from people who aren't broke niggers or apply for a loan?

>>510254160 (OP)
is that guy retarded? why isn't he going home and making these things if he can do 3000 per hour? oh... wait...

>>510254160 (OP)
Gaskets are millions of dollars each

>>510254160 (OP)
What the fuck part is that?

Rubber eye part of a camera view-finder maybe?

>>510262627
Of course I don’t believe that, anon, just like you don’t believe people are likely to succeed as entrepreneurs working in a field they have no experience in and don’t understand. If you are working in a manufacturing plant (like OP pic), the fact that you can start an at-home cupcake business is academic. You aren’t a cupcake baker, you’re a machinist, and you’re looking at what it takes to have more control over your working life in the industry you have devoted your life and mind to

> If you have a solid plan why not solicit investments from people who aren't broke niggers
Investmend rounds confer partial ownership. If the idea is to have worker-controlled enterprise, you can’t give 40% of the company to someone who doesn’t work in it, that puts you right back where you started
>apply for a loan
See my previous post. Instead of the owner of the company siphoning off the product of your labor, it’s the bank that gave you the loan doing the same. At the end of the day, the system is designed to lock you into a structure where you have to pay to support an idle rentier parasite class who extracts value from your work by gatekeeping access to capital.

That’s the entire problem. That’s the entire thing to avoid. “Pick a different capitalist to leech off you” does not fix it.

>>510254713
>barrier to entry
It’s hard, expensive and high risk to begin doing? Yea no shit. The worker thinks the building, plant and machinery are free

>>510262627
What a shitty semantics argument. You really pulled the “million dollar” limit as if that was the argument? Are you retarded?

>>510263276
yeah and labor, sales, admin and energy are free too

>>510254160 (OP)
Weirdly shaped cockrings.

>>510254160 (OP)
Does he make them from raw materials mined from the earth? Or is he last in a ridiculously long supply chain and hisnjob is to operate a machine that cranks them out?

>>510263203
>>510262627
And before you get to thinking
>this is just you making excused for why everyone but you is responsible for your misery
No, there are ways out. There are better avenues to financing cooperative ventures. I’ve already brought that up ITT. You could go to the NCB right now and seek cooperative-friendly small business financing to help you get started.

And you should.

>>510254160 (OP)
that's a retarded oversimplification. the people buying them aren't buying 3 and the costs involved aren't just one person's low skill labour.

>>510256684
I presume she wanted to apply pressure to the drill and she doesn't know she is using the wrong tool. She should be using a SDS drill not some cheap shitty chink handheld.

>>510263276
No, the worker knows the building, plant, and machinery aren’t free. The worker knows that this is why even though he does everything, the lion’s share goes to the lazy fuck whose only contribution is the fact of his ownership of something.

>>510254160 (OP)

Value theft is far greater than guburment taxes could ever be. You are not earning what you make

>>510262451
$1,000,000 / 1,000 people = $1,000
$1,000,000 / 100 people = $10,000

Get 100-1,000 people together, convince them with your business plan, raise the money, start the business. You'll need worker-owners anyway if you're going the commie route, so obviously you won't need all the money yourself.

>>510261639
Thats great, you can have those kind of socialist enterprise because it's capitalistic at its core, the coop exists to produce things for the market and gets paid for them. They may spread the profits around to their workers better, but they are still capitalists.
Now go in to a communist society and try to form a coop of a capitalist endeavor and there is no room for that in the states plan

>>510263867
Bro did you read his post ?
What a fucking non sequitur kys

>>510254160 (OP)
its not about production its about risk. currently risk isnt a thing if youre too big to fail. thus not capitalism but something else entirely

>>510263126
>each one of these is going on a $5000 camera
>I SHOULD BE GETTING BILLIONS JERRY BILLIONS
I agree, they should get billions of lashes for being uppity lil niggers

>>510263867
Correct. A good plan. A solid plan. A difficult plan because most workers have been conditioned to believe it will fail, even when the data shows it can succeed.

You know what really helps cut through all the kikery that obscures worker power? Shit like OP pic. Pointing out how much obvious waste and exploitation exists in a typical wage labor relationship. That can empower workers to start considering alternatives that are better for them.

A solid case-in-point here, you keep suggesting worker cooperatives but you keep doing it as a threat. Like “hue hue hue, if it’s so easy why don’t you do it, hue hue hue”. That’s the mentality most people have. Most people have been conditioned to believe that they are made of lesser stuff than their socioeconomic “betters”, that it’s just too hard for the mindless worker drone to handle. The biggest burden to overcome in cooperative economics is breaking people out of the cage of learned helplessness and convincing them that they CAN take their economic destiny into their own hands.

Leave your bank. Join a credit union. Find a grocery co-op in your area. Seek employment in worker-owned enterprise. Participate in cooperative structures. Attend the HOA meetings. Your life can get better. You can reduce the burden of exploitation. Step one is realizing that burden exists, but step two is NOT bitching about your boss on r/antiwork (or about the jews on /pol/ for that matter) it’s going out there and affecting change in your own life.

>>510263867
>we just get gibs and then get more gibs!
>>510264302
>hello saar i'm also a homosexual

>>510264230Shit nigga, must be a Red or a Hasselblad.

>T. based Cannon Rebel user

>>510264090
His post said you need a million dollars to start a business and this is an insurmountable barrier for poors. I showed it's not insurmountable if you're in a collective, which is the whole point of being a filthy commie, so his premise is flawed.

>>510264688
>freeing yourself from the yoke of your boss?
>what are you GAAAAAY?
see, this is the type of kike shit I'm talking about. Note the meme flag. This is the narrative around NOT submitting to an economic system that enriches a parasite class.

>>510264302
>even when the data shows it can succeed.
You've bloviated for a thousand words in this thread but never actually backed up any of your fantasies. Typical commie retardation.

>>510264766
I chose that number for the sake of a coherent sentence, it's not a literal million dollars obviously the point is "it's more capital than you have access to just lying around".

Though as I also said, your point is valid. If workers come together to pool their idle capital they can absolutely overcome this barrier. The tools are there, they just need to break out of the mental prison of capitalism and recognize the potential.

What's ironic is that most of the successful worker-owned enterprises tend to be in the most capital-intensive industries (like manufacturing), mostly because those are the oldest industries and the ones that go back to the heyday of anticapitalist thought. Karl Marx did not write in the age of Uber. Looking at the modern landscape there are a couple of really obvious avenues for worker cooperation that are extremely low capital-intensity which would be very viable in the current or near-future economic landscape. Certainly a lot easier to break into than worker-owned automotive plants.

>>510254160 (OP)
i'd just steal them from work desu.

>>510254160 (OP)
Because they take all the responsibility and risk if the business fails. They've spent millions building that factory, purchasing the land its on, paying for regulations and certifications, paying for the machinery, the raw materials, the training for the laborers, the taxes, the marketing, the stock investment.

The lower class laborers didn't pay for ANY of that. You show up and get paid what you agreed to in your employment contract. Don't like it? Renegotiate your contract, find somewhere else to work, or start your own business. You don't own shit just because you use it or make it, that's absurd. That's like your neighbor letting you borrow his lawnmower to mow your lawn and then claiming its your lawnmower because you used it: no, that's just theft, nigger.

>>510254864
Oh? Socioeconomic factors?

>>510264945
>You've bloviated for a thousand words in this thread but never actually backed up any of your fantasies
Here's a white paper
https://geo.coop/sites/default/files/0213-benefits-and-impacts-of-cooperatives.pdf
Some highlights
>Cooperative businesses have lower failure rates than traditional corporations and small businesses: after the first year of startup (10% failure versus 60-80%), and after 5 years in business (90% still operating versus 3-5% of traditional businesses). (World Council of Credit Unions study in Williams 2007)
>WAGES in Oakland CA finds that after owning the house cleaning co-op the worker-owners' median income increased to over $40,000 (before the co-op the Latina owners had a median income of $24,000). Ownership in the co-op has put their income higher than the national average of $38,000 for Latinos/as (WAGES no date).

Can you believe there isn't more academic research done that demonstrates the strength and efficacy of the format? I wonder who finances academic research and what impact that has on which research gets done.

>>510254160 (OP)
He doesn't make them, a machine makes them, he just hits a button.

>>510265321
One important addendum that I'm sure someone will call out: because cooperatives are less common overall, and the modern economic landscape does little to encourage them, there's a lot of survivorship bias in these findings. Typically co-ops don't get off the ground unless there's a much higher level of commitment to the enterprise than you'd find among a random sampling of entrepreneurial ventures and that obviously skews the numbers towards success somewhat. But this is all the data we have.

>>510264766

In the rest of the world, working people simply never make enough to take over the means of production. The system is designed to be that way. The problem is most people think that money is real when it's fake and gay. Once you remove the money and see how actual physical entities like labour, people and output are organised you'd come to the right conclusion, that we are essentially slaves.

>>510256744
bro thats a ryobi hammer drill, its not gonna go into concrete block easily but it can, do you have any fucking idea how loud drilling into concrete and masonry is?

no I doubt you do bitch boy

>>510254160 (OP)
Ywha! Dick thi fuck class ari?!

>>510263203
>Investmend rounds confer partial ownership.
If the investors don't contribute anything useful why would you give them any ownership shares?
>If the idea is to have worker-controlled enterprise, you can’t give 40% of the company to someone who doesn’t work in it,
So you and all your imaginary workers should just pool your skills and resources and start a company and divvy it up however you feel is fair. What's holding you back?
>“Pick a different capitalist to leech off you”
So if "workers" like you create all the value why let anybody take any of it? Can you think of any way to get any capital for yourself that doesn't involve theft or mommy and daddy giving it to you?
>>510263310
OK, so what's your business plan?
>>510263529
>You could go to the NCB right now and seek cooperative-friendly small business financing to help you get started.
So go over to reddit and tell that retard in OPs screencap about it. I'm sure a guy that can make 3000 cock rings an hour all by himself and with no other overhead or expenses won't have any trouble finding financing for his business venture.

>>510263758
>whose only contribution is the fact of his ownership of something
That's a crucial fact. Say YOU owned a plot of land. You pay people to plant crops on your land, using your machinery, your fuel, your seeds, your fertilizer. The workers band together and say "you didnt do shit, this is our land now". Is that reasonable? Them just taking your property?

That's called banditry, plain and simple. We used to hang bandits by the neck until dead. Ownership of a thing is a VERY important factor. If the workers want a farm, they can band together and PAY you, the owner, to buy the farm and the equipment and such off of you. They don't just get to take it because they work on it, because it ISN'T THEIRS.

>>510254160 (OP)
there is nothing stopping a business running like a co op were workers get all the profit
it doesn't work because workers are not motivated to start and maintain the business
it's like Africans given a well; they'll just let it rot and then ask for a new one

>>510256684
Pussy vibro

>>510265639
>Say YOU owned a plot of land
But why do you own it? Why do you get to put a fence around a bunch of unused Earth and say "this is mine, you need my permission to do stuff with it"?

This is the question. And of course, you can go
>well, I bought it
Okay, from whom? How did they get it? From whence cometh the legitimacy of the notion of
"ownership" over an undeveloped piece of property?

To paraphrase Marx (and I'm not a Marxist, but he had a way of talking about these things), landlords talk about the land's contribution to business as if it was their own. The land does not get up on its hind legs and demand its fair share for what it contributes to the crops grown on it.

The landlord didn't make the land. He just has a piece of paper saying it belongs to him and men with guns who say that paper is a statement of fact. Who says?

>>510254465
zoomers are embarrassing

>>510265639

What gives an owner any right to private property?

>>510254160 (OP)
this wouldnt be a problem if you were antiimmigrant and antiwomen working
then the pay would be substantially higher but you get tricked like a retard into being a lefty when being a lefty is anti-worker

>>510265838
>Who says?
The men with guns, you dumb nigger, you admitted it yourself. Force says it's mine, and says it's not yours. You want it? You have two options: buy it from me, or kill me (and the entire police force/government laws) and take it. Those are your options.

It's mine because I say it is and I have thousands of other men agreeing that it's mine. Get thousands of your own to say it's yours, and let's kick this party off. Go on, start the Revolution comrade. We're waiting.

>>510265628
>Can you think of any way to get any capital for yourself
Expropriation is the classic answer. The issue with expropriation is that it typically involves creating or coopting a power structure large enough to actually rival capitalism, and that typically means the State, and that comes with a whole bunch of its own problems (see: USSR) which I don't think any wise people are eager to repeat.

>So go over to reddit and tell that retard in OPs screencap about it.
I don't use reddit. I'm telling YOU about it right now. I'm trying to break you out of the mental prison you're living in, where the idea of worker owned enterprise is a meme because you believe the jew that controls you and pays you your pittance wage is your intellectual better, deserving of his station of superiority. He isn't. Stop behaving like criticisms of the current state of affairs are childish fantasies. Stop with the Voltaire " this is the best of all possible worlds" bullshit. Start imagining a future where you aren't a slave. It is achievable if you believe it is.

Get the taste of boot out of your mouth.

>>510265896
Might. Right of conquest. Ownership is simply a claim, and that claim is defended by force from other claimants. It's mine because me and my buddies will kill you if you disagree.

>>510254160 (OP)
Why would he have to buy any of these?
What are they even?

This meme is retarded.

>>510264302
>a threat. Like “hue hue hue, if it’s so easy why don’t you do it, hue hue hue”
It's not a threat, you fucking retard, it's a rhetorical question. Try actually acquiring capital and creating a successful business and then get back to us about how you give it all away to some redditors who show up late and stoned all the time for pushing a button on a machine you bought.

>>510263521
>Or is he last in a ridiculously long supply chain and hisnjob is to operate a machine that cranks them out?

That ridiculously long supply chain still has workers at every step who make it possible. Sure this example might be exaggerated but removing the leech owners would still cheapen the product to a degree

>>510266116

Yes, Capitalism is based on barbaric savagery. That much I can agree with

>>510265042
>If workers come together to pool their idle capital
So what do you do for work and how much idle capital do you have laying around? Let's start trying to work this all into reality somehow. I'm sure once you 'workers' get a profitable business established I'm sure lots of the layabouts here will be happy to come sign up so that they can own their fair share of it.

>>510266131
>Try actually acquiring capital and creating a successful business and then get back to us
I've said it twice in this thread and I'll say it a third time, cooperative businesses fail far less frequently than standard private-owned enterprises. I don't know what you're trying to meme about here. It isn't a fantasy that somebody made up and if we actually try it, it will all collapse because workers are retards. Workers form cooperatives all the time and they work far more often than they don't.

Why does this idea offend your sensibilities so much?

>>510266237
>barbaric savagery
You probably don't want to bring up barbarism or savagery as an Indian, Pradesh. Just suggesting.

>>510266237
"Yes, Capitalism is based on barbaric savagery. That much I can agree with."
― Barbaric savage

>>510254160 (OP)
I'm sure we can trust this meme flags Twitter post.

>>510266319
Because you're in this thread bitching about capitalism. If worker coops work so well, go make one yourself and stop bitching. Fucking champagne socialists, I swear.

>>510266391
Lmao. I said almost the exact same thing, haha.

>>510254465
>i can hit this nail
>i nail this chick
I know who is winning in this equation.

>>510265838
>Gibs muh dat!
Hard to believe you're an unemployed and unemployable poor.

>>510266390
>>510266391
>Don't have a point
>Immediately bring up race

Very much expected. But yes, the most savage aspects of Indian life are directly rooted in its capitalism. This system works under the barbaric logic wherein it'll supply the last glass of milk it has, first to a rich man's cat before a poor man's child.

>>510254160 (OP)
>I make 3,000 of them

Does he mean he violates the law of conservation of matter and creates these out of thin air?

>>510266319
Personally, I'm all for co-ops, and I think they're the ideal we should strive for. I just also think most people are demoralized, fat, willfully stupid, and lazy, and I'm not much better, so the problem isn't really a material one to begin with. If every member of society was a paragon of virtue, the specific structure of our businesses would be irrelevant. Our problems are always fundamentally spiritual, and you can't solve spiritual problems with a material solution. But that being said, I'm working on myself and if I can find enough good people, I do plan on starting a co-op at some point.

>>510266311
>So what do you do for work and how much idle capital do you have laying around?
I'm a manager (and member owner) at a food co-op, smart ass. It isn't worker controlled, it's customer controlled (the joke is "co-op in the front, Whole Foods in the back") but hey, I try to do what I can to minimize the burden of idle management and there's definitely conversation about workers as stakeholders and what could be done to change it but it's a process. In the retail industry, consumer co-ops tend to dominate rather than worker co-ops, it's just the landscape. I think in a perfect world you'd wind up with something more like a blend of both.

If you actually want to start "trying to work this all into reality somehow" I think a couple of really obvious paths forward are the following:

1) a worker owned gig economy. The gig economy is interesting because the workers are already supplying the capital (Uber does not give you the car you drive, or even the phone you use to find fares) and don't work for leveled wages anyway (they take fare shares). What does the business actually supply in the gig economy, an app and a payment processing platform? Any retard could do that. I think the biggest barrier to worker control of the gig economy is right now it's largely unprofitable (Uber still isn't making any money), it's basically a charity deficit-financed by venture capitalists. Once the magic money dries up and Uber starts squeezing to actually earn a profit, there will be a competitive space for Uber drivers (and other gig workers in related fields) to just create their own platform and manage it as equal worker-owners. It costs basically nothing, they just have to have the vision to attempt it

>>510254160 (OP)
If you really want 3 of these, you can just steal them.
Commies are retarded faggots. Either get a job that pays you well for your labor or don't work.

>>510254160 (OP)
Make your own factory then, Commie.

>why don't you just start your own business commie?
I dunno, why don't you find out a way to deal with sit down strikes without having that state you supposedly hate so much to make it illegal and send in an army of police on your side if workers do one? Why did you have the state you hate so much make secondary boycotts, solidarity and wildcat strikes illegal?

>>510266091
>I'm trying to break you out of the mental prison you're living in
No you're not. You're fantasizing about stealing my shit because you've got the greed of a Jew and the laziness of a nigger.
>the jew that controls you
What Jew do you believe controls me?
>your pittance wage
I own my own LLC that pays me fair enough return for my investment and work input. I do work 2 days a week at my town office but that's not really for the pittance wage it's because my community needed someone to do the job.
>Start imagining a future where you aren't a slave.
I'm not a slave today and neither are you. You're a spoiled child demanding mommy gives you someone else's toys that you covet.

>>510266787


2) worker-owned staffing agencies. Specifically as a replacement for labor unions. I think wage workers banding together to create a "workforce brand" and provide job placement services for each other has real potential. AlliedUP did it to great effect in the health care services industry where temp workers are common. I think you can, and should, broaden that. The real "capital" you invest is just labor anyway, most of the challenging work would be figuring out how to compete in the temp space. Which is only challenging because most people who are career wage workers probably don't understand much about how temp agencies are back-end administrated, particularly in building relationships with their clients. I think it's achievable, it's just a question of having access to that skillset and the mindset to achieve it.

Again, most of the barriers here are in the form of "people just don't really think about it this way, they think running a business is for thee, not for me". Cooperative economics isn't really on the forefront of working people's minds as a realistic option. I'd like to change that.

>>510254636
I saw this same botted reply the last time this thread was posted

>>510266652
That's not a flex. The rich man has value to society, that's what money is - a medium of exchange representing value. He can use the excess value he acquires to feed his cat. The poor man has little to no value, that's why he's poor, that's what being poor literally means. The loss of that poor man is no great sorrow - there are others more valuable than him that can replace him.

We live in a zero-sum world. For one to gain, another must lose. Stop losing and you wouldn't be a loser. Go ahead, revolt against the rich. Please. Maybe you win, and you get to be the rich guy now. Maybe you lose, and the problem of the poor dude is solved. But please, whatever you do... stop bitching. Please. Just stop. Put up or shut up. The whining is unbearable. You wouldn't be a loser if you just stopped losing.

>>510266765
>you can't solve spiritual problems with a material solution
I can go digging through my Kevin Carson to find the source on this if you like, but this is probably not true. There was a study done of a factory that converted from a hierarchical enterprise to a worker cooperative; the study was obviously aimed at things like how productivity, pay, safety practices, etc., changed.

The unexpected result was that after going co-op, civic participation OUTSIDE of the cooperative skyrocketed. Co-op members joined PTA boards, got more involved in community projects and their local churches, etc. The act of daily practicing self-determination gave them the skills and confidence to engage in it elsewhere. Learned helplessness is real. You don't have the confidence to try things you don't understand or have experience with. If you come in to work every day and participate in controlling your own economic destiny, it's teaching you the skills to behave that way OUTSIDE the workplace as well. It literally solves spiritual problems with a material solution, because it trains people how to be better communitarians and how to take charge of the problems in their own environment.

>>510254160 (OP)
Not really taking into consideration all the other stuff required in the process from raw materials, transport, taxes and not to mention the cost of selling the product.

>>510266319
So why aren't you telling us about your co-op?
>>510266471
>If worker coops work so well, go make one yourself
I think he's waiting for the state to steal some other poor fuckers land and equipment first.
>>510266787
>I'm a manager (and member owner) at a food co-op,
What does that pay compared to being a manager at a WalMart or Win Dixie? How much of a share of the company's assets do you feel you deserve to own just because you work there?

>>510260441
very antisemitic considering it's illegal via their religious law

>>510254160 (OP)

My brother in christ, invest in 3d printing. They made 3D printers a nerdy niche like computers were at the beginning, but home manufacturing will someday be the only way to get things if you're not ultra wealthy.

>>510267307
Very cool, hopefully we'll start to see those sorts of societal changes in the next few decades assuming we don't collapse. If that's true, the good ideas ought to self-propagate given enough time.

>>510267392
>I think he's waiting for the state to steal some other poor fuckers land and equipment first
Of course he is. They always have these great theories but never actually put them into practice. It's all rainbows and unicorns until the rubble meets the road, and then suddenly it's excuse after excuse of why they can't actually show results.

Like I said. Champagne socialists. Put up or shut up.

Why do holohoax number experts never run the numbers from this meme?

If you assume the machine works 24-hours for 300 days out of the year, then it produces $108M worth of retail-price products. Assuming the firm has a 20% markup (with the downstream chain claiming another 20%), the pure profit per machine is $15.5M per year. If the injection moulding machine costs $2M, they can re-buy the whole machine with cash in 47 days.

There are taxes and other stuff, but this shit doesn't pass the sniff test. The only way for such a business to maintain such ridiculous margins is to have some sweetheart deals with government contracting - which is basically stealing taxpayer's money. So good job to the capitalism defenders ITT, you're dickriding a company that is outright stealing from you with the state's collusion.

>>510267702
>Assuming we don't collapse
Current estimates for America are collapse by approx. the year of our Lord 2032. This wouldn't be a catastrophic collapse but more of a slow degradation of policing and government programs, possibly some states will splinter off and secede from the Union but it's too soon to tell exactly how it will look.

>>510267107
>The rich man has value to society, that's what money is - a medium of exchange representing value. He can use the excess value he acquires to feed his cat. The poor man has little to no value, that's why he's poor, that's what being poor literally means. The loss of that poor man is no great sorrow - there are others more valuable than him that can replace him.

Yes, Capitalism is a class system not much different from feudal or other systems, wherein everyone is supposed to bow, scrape and slave for a few just because they are in a certain position. That's exactly what is being criticized. A typical rightoid who believes that humans are fundamentally unequal and some people should have it better than others , and should be able to exploit and enjoy everyone else's work for purely ontological reasons, would definitely take issue with this.

>
We live in a zero-sum world. For one to gain, another must lose. Stop losing and you wouldn't be a loser. Go ahead, revolt against the rich. Please. Maybe you win, and you get to be the rich guy now. Maybe you lose, and the problem of the poor dude is solved.

Savage warfare is not the prescription though. Mutual cooperation is.

>>510267049
I saw this same botted reply the last time this thread was posted

>>510254160 (OP)
He doesn't literally make them though; some machine does. Did he pay for that machine? Does he pay to maintain that machine? Does he pay for the raw materials going into the machine to make the product? If not, then why would he be entitled to a large percentage of the products made?

>>510267742
You are using manager math to get holohoax levels of production. Every manager i knew always believed we could run past 100 percent efficiency when the work piled up. They always overestimate how much production they speculate we can get done. They see the machines running at top speed and think they run like that non stop. They dont.

>>510267392
>So why aren't you telling us about your co-op?
Because this is an anonymous image-board and only an absolute retard would tell someone he's arguing with
>this is the location of the building I work at. Look, you can find the phone number on google maps! I sure hope nobody does anything bad with that information

>What does that pay compared to being a manager at a WalMart or Win Dixie?
It's comparable. I've been paid more for the gig, but I've also been paid less. But the working conditions are far better. A lot of that probably comes down to the co-op just being less busy (retail is always harder in low-cost high-volume environments) but there's also a lot less pressure to hit very rough metrics. It's not nonexistent, but nobody is being patently unreasonable because their quarterly bonus depends on blindly hitting a KPI target. Of course, THAT may also have to do with it just being small. The elimination of all the bullshit layers of intermediary bureaucracy is partially due to the way cooperatives are structured but also just due to the size of the business.

What I guess I could say is, I make mid-sized corp pay for small-town shop workload. Which is pretty sweet.

>How much of a share of the company's assets do you feel you deserve to own just because you work there?
I mean, I'm a member owner, so I have my share, same as every other member owner. What I'd like to see is something like the Mondragon system, where employees can "wage in" to their own ownership shares with a small per-paycheck fee, and gain at least some voting control upon hire. I don't want to diminish control from the existing member owners, they're relevant stakeholders too, I just want the guys packing out the cereal boxes to also have a voice. It's not like the owners are trying to get rich off their backs... but it's also not like I was elected. I do try to behave like I want to be elected, though. I think I do okay at that.

>>510254160 (OP)
how does he make em? does he dig up the resources? provide the energy for the machines? make the machines themselves? does he himself inspect and package and ship them?

>>510267970
Why do they need him if the machine does everything?

>>510267702
It doesn't begin unless some of us can take the leap of faith without having that practice. Those of us with the vision to see how this works have to be the ones who lead those who don't care and just want to live their lives into this potential. Once they do it, they will learn that they can do it, and change will grow. You can see how the density of cooperative enterprise tends to be geographically clustered in the US; when people have experience with it, it feels like a normal choice, and it propagates.

Be a nucleation site, anon. Don't wait for the world to change on your behalf.

>>510254160 (OP)
layman does not see what the people in charge do, nor does he understand, nor could he do it. but somehow he sees all the things they have and covets them.

>>510268072
So you're saying only 1% of the product is his work and the rest is something else?

>>510268247

Management is labour in and of itself. No reason it should be paid more than anything else.

>>510267742
What's the labor margin on that? What's the cost of materials? How much do they spend on marketing? Do they have a slush fund for legal? How about insurance? Dividends payments to stock owners?

There's a LOT of numbers involved that we don't know, but that $108 million a year, I'd say that's extremely optimistic, and that $15.5 milly is going to be MUCH lower in reality. More like a few hundred thousand. They aren't expanding that rapidly.

>>510267742
There's a saturation point, anon. The machine can crank out 21 million widgets a year, but that doesn't mean you have buyers for 21 million widgets every year.

>>510254465
this is a dumb webm. if tou practiced this for two weeks you could hit every nail. I had same problem with hammering stakes in some bs in the backyard. after one hour of practice I nailed it in seconds. it is commical to me that someone thinks they are special cause they can hammer a nail.

>>510268072
he literally vomits melted rubber and shapes it by hand.
he is the only employee.
otherwise his whining would be rather shortsighted and idiotic

>>510267920
>typical rightoid who believes that humans are fundamentally unequal
Please demonstrate how they ARE equal. I'll wait. Please don't point out trivialities like "our blood is all the same color" - so is pig's blood.

>>510268005
You have machines that are left not working for 1600 hours per year?

>>510268072


Answered here>>510266135

>>510268469
>memeflag doesn't understand that the constant repeated attempts and dick clutching is the joke
>whines that the webm has someone'a hand in it displaying skill for a fraction of a second every now and then
you are brown

>>510268386
You're operating from the idea that all labour is equal in value. That's a Marxist concept, and it is provably false: digging a hole and then filling it back in again is labour, but had achieved precisely NOTHING in terms of productivity.

The guy pushing buttons on the machine is paid less than the guy putting in 50+ hours a week of paperwork to keep the logistics train running on time. All labour is NOT equal in value. That's why management gets paid more.

>>510254160 (OP)
He's probably the last step in production, so he feels like he is the one entirely responsible for making them. He's there manning the machine as 3000 of them spit out per hour, but there are many other people involved in the production of these items, whatever the fuck they are.

>>510254257
Things that are essential and fundamental to a prosperous and functioning society should, to some extent be socialized. It has been proven to work much better than exploiting those things to enrich the few beyond measure. If the market is to be the answer, then society should be viewed as a market that requires some inputs.

>>510268545

It's a premise on which ideas are built. I don't need to demonstrate it. I've already claimed that rightoid claim at inequality is ontological too ("divine right to rule or whatever") , not that they can demonstrate it.

Ps. Not being same /=/ not being equal. I don't see why anyone should be in a position where he can exploit someone else's labour

BBC makes right.

>>510254160 (OP)
That's how huge empires operate every time. It's not moral or good, but it's the only way to have scale.

The tools and electricity to make those things aren't free you fucking retard. You can even test this in a small scale with 3d printing. Lots of retards buy a 3d printer thinking they will save a lot of money if they print plastic shit instead of buying it. They are wrong,

>>510261127
3000 per hour?

>>510268469
everyone's reaction is because it ISNT special to be able to do that, inbred moron.

>>510269100
no

>>510268756
>That's a Marxist concept
No, it is not. He described the different value of labor, especially in relation to races and nations. He just said that with industrialization the skill of workers becomes more and more irrelevant and that if you take random 5 workers of a nation you always get the same efficacy average.

>>510268756
>digging a hole and then filling it back in again is labour, but had achieved precisely NOTHING in terms of productivity.

The thing you've described is not socially necessary labour. Hence it creates no value as you point out. Marxists would agree, but this doesn't serve your point. Because we are talking about socially necessary labour here.

>The guy pushing buttons on the machine is paid less than the guy putting in 50+ hours a week of paperwork to keep the logistics train running on time

Your earlier example does not demonstrate this conclusion since both labours here are socially necessary. NOW we might ask why the logistics guy is paid more. I'd like to hear your thoughts first on why you think his labour is more valuable (other than the fact that he might be working more hours)

>>510266116
>Might. Right of conquest. Ownership is simply a claim
The owner seized the means of production? No, that's not quite how it went.

>>510268908
You made the claim that they are equal, so demonstrate it. Otherwise, you're admitting that they aren't equal and conceding to your strawman of what a "typical rightoids" position is.

So which is it? Are people equal, or aren't they? Then, you need to demonstrate that. Show your work, buddy.

>>510255113
as if you commie faggots did any work in your pathetic lives

>>510255925
so why you commie faggots are not doing this admin work? It is so easy and does not need anything but make retards to work for you and steal money from their work.

>>510267609
Good 3D printers are still expensive and a pain in the ass. Plastic shit from China is still dirt cheap, almost free. It's going to be a long long time before 3D printing becomes economical for everyday items.

>>510254160 (OP)
So he could just steal and resell three of those every day and retire early!

>>510268389
My math was used to illustrate that the business in the meme cannot exist. Are you really trying to dig your heels and argue that a basic bitch injection-moulding machine making $108M of widgets is barely breaking even for a firm?

>>510269221
Did he mention what happens if you take 5 workers from nation A and 5 workers from nation B, which one is more efficient? International socialism hinges on the axiom of "all labor is equal in value". Perhaps that isn't Marxist, but perhaps it would be Engelian, or Leninist.

I'm not a Communist, and I don't agree with that fundamental principle of tabula rasa, so perhaps someone with more familiarity could explain which Communist thinker espoused that idea.

>>510254160 (OP)
the government wants u to know this: you can actually seize the means of production by just starting a business

>>510269475
Now he has to become a salesman too? That's even more work. Come on.

>>510269473
>long time before 3D printing becomes economical for everyday items
Rather never. The costs will always be higher. The energy would have to be free for it to be worthwhile on a large scale.

>>510269358
Because we are all human beings and all of us work. There's no inherent inequality in nature itself. You can take it back to some kind of monadism if you want. Inequality on the other hand is a projection of the mind upon the oneness of nature.
Now, I'm interested in your demonstration of why people should be unequal.

>>510269078
>Lots of retards buy a 3d printer thinking they will save a lot of money if they print plastic shit instead of buying it. They are wrong,
On a counterpoint, there's the Ralph Borsodi phenomenon, where the assumption that "economies of scale" should produce savings over local home production gets utterly obliterated when you actually do the math.

I don't know a great deal about 3D printing or what sort of savings it does and does not produce, but it surprises me that it wouldn't be cheaper (maybe not hilariously so, but still cheaper) to print off parts rather than buy them off the shelf, presuming that they were of comparable quality. To be sure, mass-production injection molding is producing parts at a far lower unit cost, but the administrative, storage, transportation, and marketing overheads will more than offset this savings in many industries. As I say, maybe "random plastic bits and bobs" is not one of those industries but that definitely makes it an exception rather than a rule.

>>510254465
the game is called timmy gon' do

>>510269078
The point of 3D printing is to make stuff that you can't buy off the shelf because no one is making it.

>>510269590
He cites how it was cheaper for the British Empire to take some English workers abroad to build railroads and mix them with natives, rather than using only natives, because they were so much more efficient.

>>510268469
people ignoring the fact that professional hammerers go to trade schools for years to learn skill and precision.

>>510269304
Absolutely: unequal skill. Any trained monkey can push a button all day. Logistics takes a great deal of intelligence, discipline, organizational and planning skills, on and on.

Most people can push button machine to make widget. Much fewer are the people that can make the trains run on time. The difference in value is due to scarcity, same as how everything in this world operates.

>>510269313
He purchased the means of production from others. The others agree to his claim of ownership. Collectively, they all agree to his claim, and society enforces that with force or violence/threat of violence (police and laws).

Part of the social contract is everyone agreeing to support and defend each other's claims of ownership, with force if need be. That's what a police force IS.

>>510270441
>everyone agreeing
agreeing by being born

>>510269746
>We're all human beings
Not sure I agree actually.
>There's no inherent inequality in nature
Tell that to the rabbit being eaten by the hawk. Also, appeal to nature is a logical fallacy.
>why should people be unequal?
I never claimed they should, I claimed they are.

>>510270242
>Much fewer are the people that can make the trains run on time
If you've ever worked in admin, you'd understand how utterly naive this viewpoint is. Yes, admin is a skill, and it has to be learned. There is no question. But it takes far more skill to be, say, a successful journeyman electrician or plumber than to be a middle manager at a major corporation, and the pay does not reflect that disparity. In fact, I would bet cash money that if you took 1,000 electricians and put them in middle management roles, and took those same 1,000 middle managers and had them do the electrician's jobs, wife-swap style, the negative impact to the electrician businesses would be exponentially worse than the negative impact to the firms with untrained middle management across the course of the first six months.

Someone do that experiment sometime, that'd be interesting.

The actual explanation for the pay disparity, by the way, is incentives. Pay has to go up as you move up the corporate ladder, because moving up the corporate ladder is the incentive provided to do work at your current level of the corporate ladder. What's the cheapest way to incentivize people? You have a contest. You only pay out a reward to one person, but you motivate all the participants with that same reward. Middle management has to be easier than the job below it and pay better. The pay is not a reflection of the value the middle manager adds, the pay is a reflection of the value the front-line worker adds. The middle manager "won the contest". He's getting the pay-out that was used to incentivize all of the workers below him.

>>510269903
Then you at least agree that labor is not inherently blank slate, that some labor is more valuable than others. Correct?

>>510254160 (OP)
>i am a small part of the supply chain but I deserve all of the profits

If you could make those little rubber things without all the other employees, equipment, and suppliers, then you would be an absolute retard to do so for a boss who pays you less than your worth.

but actually, you can't produce those little rubber things without people gathering the materials, people shipping them to the factory, the machines in the factory, and likely a bunch of other people involved in the process too.

communists are retarded

>>510271005
>you
I was just pointing out your educational gaps.

>>510270613
No. Agreeing by consciously, willfully agreeing. My evidence: there are people that do NOT agree. We call them niggers, and terrorists, and commies, and so on.

>>510270441
> Part of the social contract

That’s long gone nigger

>>510271101
I guess thats why you dont have a bong flag.

>>510254160 (OP)
>Why should the middle and upper class own the means of production

>>510271005
NTA but of course that's correct and Marx himself never disputed it. You can't meaningfully quantify "effort" with an objective measurement, obviously working harder adds more value than working lazily. Obviously practicing a skill that took a decade to learn "encodes" more labor than practicing a skill that took 5 minutes to learn, because of all the labor that went into learning the skill. And obviously "labor" that doesn't produce social value isn't worth anything.

The point Marx was trying to make was that ultimately, all economic value comes from labor. There is nothing human beings value which does not require toil to obtain. The toil to obtain a thing is where its worth comes from. All of economics is an abstraction of the idea that you do work to get something you want, and so its worth represents the work put in to obtain it.

The reason for calling attention to this patently obvious fact is to point out that the economy can obscure usury very handily. With so much abstraction applied to the value of this work and that, it's very easy for someone who contributes NOTHING to the social whole to wind up gaining a bunch of resources anyway, and instead of being immediately recognized as a thief and parasite who isn't making a contribution, he can obscure it with financial trickery.

>>510270808
I like that theory, actually, that makes a lot of sense, with some caveats - there is a minimum amount of talent required to move up the ranks. You aren't going to promote literally retarded burger flipper to manager without promoting another person to act as tard wrangler unless you want your business to explode. Also, we were talking about monkey factory line worker, not tradesmen.

Plumbers and electricians do make crazy amounts of money. It reflects scarcity, skill, as well as job risk to health.

>>510254160 (OP)
>poor dumb gommi doesn't own stock in the company
I bet you could afford the surgery to chop off your cock though. SOMEHOW you came up with those funds right?

>>510254799
Checked. Please elaborate.

>>510271551
>he thinks wages are high enough to buy enough shares to get a fair share
If that were the intention, all companies would be cooperatives.

>>510271136
The one that has existed since post WW2 is gone, yeah. There are new social contracts being "written" all over the place.

>>510254257
we haven't been in a true capitalism since dodge v ford

>>510271292
Yeah, we call those jews. Which is funny, because Leninist and Stalinist Soviet Union was like 95% jewish in the upper ranks.

Thank you for enlightening me on some of the finer points of Communist theory. It will allow me to hate them even more accurately in the future. I appreciate it.

>>510254160 (OP)

Honestly anon, you need to quit being such a bitch. Get your lazy ass up, go to work, put down the vidya and faggy anime, go to school, go learn to re-tread some tires, and go make a decent living.
I'm just sick and tired about being lectured on the economy from faggots who can't even pay their own bills on time. Whatever the next revolution may be, you are not it.

>>510263932
>Not understanding different socialised ownership structures in a Market Bartered economy is different to unrestrained Capitalism both in their theory and modern implementation

Capitalism would DICTATE that the Co-Op should dispense with all pretence and have only 1 owner whilst suppressing wlabour conditions to follow comple profit acquisition as the ultimate goal for the highest accruals possible or sell to a vulture capital buyout of said company that gives the co-op the most individual profit for its members
wew

>>510254160 (OP)
He doesn't own the land it's made on, or the raw materials, or the machines that make them, or the supply chain, which would all cost millions of dollars, if not billions. He's basically a guy doing an incredibly simple task in the middle of an incredibly complex supply chain. He didn't even bother to tell us what they are.

>>510271928
There has been no pure capitalism in any nation since the first strike in that nation forced the capitalists to make concessions to the workers via the government. And that's a good thing. Anyone can read about the conditions of the people in early industrialization phases.

>>510271981
Ultimately that was the point I've been getting at. All the theory in the world won't change reality. The reality is: some people are simply better than others. Financial trickery can obscure it and detach labor from value, but some labor is worth more than others, so ultimately it's a hard sell to say that the less efficient labor should be supported. Honestly - shut up and work, be valuable to society, or kindly face the wall. Humanity hasn't really changed since ancient times - "He who does not work, neither does he eat". That was Marx, yeah, but he was quoting the Bible.

>>510272054
If you follow this logic; and I hope you genuinely do, the Capitalist cannot operate WITHOUT some form of civilised civic common structures, utilities, laws and regulations.

Privatised versions of these create a distorted feudal playing field of Oligarchy

>>510254740
Bold of this comic artist to imply a business owner does their own market analysis and doesn't pay someone to do it for him, then paying someone else to assess the risks of what machinery to invest in.

>>510254160 (OP)
>I make...
Lol, no, you don't. you operate machinery owned by the company. The machinery makes it. You are just there to assist.

>>510272256
*LAUGHS IN HR AND SENIOR MANAGEMENT*

A cursory glance at Boeing may suffice. The moronic management followed Capitalistic hubris to meet their fuscal and lead time targets.
Basic knowledge and resoect for Labour of Engineers and Safety was RELEGATED for personal financial gains.

737 Max leaked Internal Communications.
Read them.

>>510272267
There is only authoritarianism or oligarchy. The human condition does not allow for anything else. Democracy is just a facade over oligarchy.

>>510272495
Why are you laughing? I'm agreeing with you: Boeing supported the less efficient labor (retarded Indian savages) in order to pad their own pockets, and they reap the rewards.

I'm not a capitalist. I'm a socialist. I just happen to be a national socialist, not an international socialist.

>>510272495
Are you Indian?

>>510255269
> bank uses millions of deposits to fund loans for rich
That's not even the case. Banks create the money they loan out from literal nothing. Its just numbers in their computers. The reason banks can usually get away with loaning fake money is that very little of this fake money is ever converted to real physical money, and as for bank transfers, the transfers between banks on average cancels out. So only a small amount of real money needs to exchanged between banks.

>>510268233
My profession isn't one that would work as a co-op unless some very idealistic billionaire decided to have a go at it. I'm a controls engineer.

>>510256744
my ears are fucked and hammer drills produced a high pitch sound. Out of all the things you can make fun of her for in this clip that and the glasses are actually the only thing she did right.

>>510272267
The arguments are always the same, but it is the capitalists who force the worker to work if he does not do it voluntarily. In the past often with violence, today rather with soft power. The point is simply that capitalists and workers get their share from the same pot and therefore the less the one gets, the more the other gets. But this situation is often clearer to the capitalist than to the worker.

>>510272713
Hence why the many, many controls put in place to prevent bank runs - if people knew just how badly the ((banks)) have been fucking them, there wouldn't be enough streetlights to hang them all.

>>510254160 (OP)
There seems to be a lot of bootlickers in here saying shit like "yeah but you're not paying the overheads". Let's not pretend like even if you accounted for overheads and focused entirely on net profit, wages are fairly distributed. It all ends up going to the people at the top, or some invisible shareholders that want more and more for themselves. Capitalism has failed because those at the top have wrapped it up with a broken system for their own extraction of the wealth.

>>510272820
Still waiting for your Revolution, comrade. Still waiting.

>>510272687
The British labor movement is the oldest in the world.

>>510272967
Who determines what is a "fair" distribution? The guys with the hard power, ultimately. Might doesn't make right, but it does make.

>>510272977
It was you who called your founding fathers niggers.

>>510254160 (OP)
>makes 3000 an hour

No, the machine you take them out of makes them

>>510254160 (OP)
I calculated if you have 8 hours of subhumans that do something you have to work 8x30times if you make average work.

That isnt a joke btw. That is why noone likes you just like lawyers.

>>510273068
So they hired him out of charity?

>>510273041
Dude do you think 30x your work per hour is somewhat a fair deal???

>>510273065
They were. The Enlightenment, which is what they based their principles on, was Satanic from top to bottom. I disagree, STRONGLY, with much of what the Founders proposed. But, I don't have the power to change the system, so I endure it.

>>510254160 (OP)
I get the sentiment but did he dig up the rare earth metals, build the machine that dug it up, pump oil from the earth, build a refinery make said oil into diseal/gas, put in a truck he built, and transport it to his bosses shop? Yes we all have to eat costs somewhere but this retarded pitter patter is not useful. It should be from the moral stand point of a few obviously making grossly obscene amounts and then weaponizing that wealth to keep labor in check so they can acquire more wealth. Money needs to be in the hands of the workers who won't sell society down the river with fucking wetbacks and jeets for a larger personal cash pile. Society comes first and not some profit motive for some faggot widget shit.

>>510272054
>He doesn't own the land it's made on, or the raw materials
No one should own that or everyone should own that equally. If you are so smart man operate your own machine.

>>510273015
>>510272687
>>510272495
Hey guys, let's just kill all the jews instead of letting them enslave us all.
We can be friends with Iran and never have to hear the word "kosher" again.

>>510254160 (OP)
>I make
Did he also make and purchase the machine that makes them? Does he do all of the company's marketing? Did he create the packaging and list them for sale? Does he manage customer complaints? Did he work through the constant threat of bankruptcy before he was able to sell these widgets at a rate that could support him financially? No he is a retard that presses a button on a machine so he can go home and play Nintendo Switch at the end of the day.

>>510272267
Capitalists and goverment breaucrats are single entity. Only idiots see them as opposing camps. Capitalist always lobby for more loicence and more "stability".

>>510273409
I too enjoy some esoteric Hitlerism every now and then. You're not wrong, I think most people here agree that there's something rotten in Denmark, so to speak. But, the commies here are blaming the managers, the "bourgouisie", not the foreign oligarchs who created the terrible system in the first place. They've fallen for the class warfare meme when it was a race war all along and they never even realized it.

>>510270748
It does my heart good to see indians being verbally bitch-slapped first thing in the morning.

>>510273414
>should
Go ahead and disagree. Bullet says "I don't care". Revolt, or don't, but stop fucking whining, please God.

>>510254160 (OP)
Does he pull them fully formed out of his ass? If not, then the point is invalid. He is a meat puppet manning a machine and essentially puts in 1% of the work, and 0% of the raw materials, not to mention 0% of the upfront costs and 0% of the market planning, necessary to produce the thing.

>>510273460
>kill all jews
>dont kill all Iranians
Porque no los dos?
The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend. Sometimes it's just enemies all the way down.

I could agree to eliminating one enemy at a time, though.

>>510254465
>man who uses this tool for 8 hours every day is better at using tool than man who has never or rarely uses said tool, while possibly drunk
wow what a stupid video

>>510254160 (OP)

Why would you want 3k of those anyway?

>>510273759
It gets tiresome after a while. The "smart" ones think they're not subhuman animals. It's exhausting having to remind them that, even if their IQ were above room temperature, that still doesn't make them human. Dolphins are smarter than the average Indian and we don't consider them human, I don't particularly see a difference.

>>510274405
He's bitching about "wage inequality" as if he himself didn't sign the employment contract. It's embarassing, really.

>>510273798
Fuck off glowie. Poeple will rebel when time comes. Your propaganda machine is crumbling.

>>510254160 (OP)
I’m sorry I didn’t know the girl at Starbucks produced more than I do as an engineer at an automobile manufacturer. You fucking idiot. The girl at Starbucks is the serf, I am the prole

>>510274412
On a related note, I've often seen "progressives" oppose the idea that races differ on average by IQ, because being stupid means we'd treat them like disableds or animals, so the only way to save lesser races is by pretending we're equal to them. I can't help but think then that means they personally treat disableds and animals really badly, if that's their fear. It didn't cross my mind the first time I heard that to mistreat people based on their intelligence.

>>510273460
Sounds good.

>>510274546
STILL waiting on the Revolution, comrade. If I were a glowie, I'd probably die from boredom. Thank God I'm not, what a shit job, having to listen to losers cry about some Glorious Revolution that's "definitely coming in two more weeks".

>>510254160 (OP)
Ooops! Looks like you forgot taxes. Your hourly wage is not the only expense your employer has to pay. And the retarded keep saying "tax the rich" like the rich aren't gonna pass that expense onto you losers.

>>510274771
Again. The system that allows you to live as a parasite was created with a revolution.

>>510274771
The internet street toughs are uppity about their working conditions but secretly they realize it’s their fault. The average salary in America across all workers is $76,000. If you can’t make that, you are below average. As a man. As a human. End of story. Thinking below average people will ever lead a political revolution is the acme of idiocy

>>510274705
Most lefty thought is actually projection of their own fears and insecurities. Once you see it you can't unsee it. Example: they cried that Trump would throw all the gays into concentration camps if he got elected. Why? Because if they were elected, they would throw all the Christians into concentration camps. They accuse their opponents of being guilty of things THEY would be guilty of. It's literally in their playbook, Rules for Radicals.

>>510272040
Capitalism would dictate nothing because it's not a dictator. Do you even have a license to post on this website?

>>510275033
Noone thought this, faggot.

>>510275070
You should ask someone with an education how laws are created.

>>510274896
The system was created specifically so people like me could live as we chose. I'm not opposed to revolution, far from it in fact. I love competition. I just wish the commies would fucking do it instead of yapping like a chihuahua all the time, gives me a fucking headache. Please God, just pull the trigger, so one of us can be silenced forever. I'm not even particularly concerned if it's me that loses.

> I operate the machine that makes 3,000 per hour
> omg that's so unfair! our labor is being exploited for profit!!! eat the rich!

>>510254160 (OP)
Youre at the end of a complete line of rational mutually agreed upon voluntary contracts that goes right up to the glasses on your face. All of the work that you do not do does not magically go away. It just gets passed onto the next sad sappy sucker until you have a functioning society. No one wants to cook your breakfast.

>>510275033
I know kikes usually do this intentionally with their "every accusation is a confession" behaviour, but I'm assuming then that this is a more subconscious equivalent for lefties? Like the whole "blacks need special treatment, because they're too stupid to succeed on their own" thing they like to push, they're not doing it while knowing they're being racist, it's just a failure to introspect their stances?

>>510275094
I'm sorry your memory is so goldfish-like. I hope you get better.

>>510254160 (OP)
And capitalism allowed people to raise money for the machines for large volume production. And capitalism allows for competition making products cheaper with options for purchase. Fuck of Commie

>>510274187
We don't need to kill anyone but the jews.
And you, apparently.
You were thinking you'd own how many goyim slaves on that pyramid scheme?

>>510275261
those "required" items aren't really required in real life
you're actually just a brainwashed slave for zion

>>510254160 (OP)
But he doesn't own the machine or buy the raw material

>>510275668
Correct. It's a total lack of introspection. They don't have the mental horsepower to really sit down and look at their positions from a neutral third party perspective and see if they're logically consistent with observable reality. They're morally and intellectually bankrupt.

>>510275835
Bruv - I agree on killing the jews. I just think you're thinking too small.

>>510276236
No, anon.
I'll gladly watch you be killed.

>>510276013
"No one should own anything"

Or something. I dunno, he hasn't really thought about anything behind his own selfish enrichment.

>>510276342
The employer also only thought of his personal enrichment.
You zionist fuck tards are so God damn stupid it's not even funny.
Kill yourself for us.

>>510276282
Alright.
I mean, how do you argue with that?
How about we compromise: kill all the jews, and simply send the Iranians back to Iran where they can fuck off and do whatever the fuck Iranians do. Sound good?

>>510276534
No, we kill the jews and you.
You are a tyrant.

>>510276408
So both are thinking of their own enrichment. One cannot enrich themselves without the other, so they come to an agreement: you do X labor or task, and I pay you Y amount of money as a representation of the value of your labor. Both sides agree to this contract, and they both benefit after having negotiated what each would feel is an appropriate exchange rate.

Huh. That sounds sort of like an employment contract. That's weird.