Thread 510747731

>>510747731 (OP)
I don't get it

>>510747731 (OP)
What's the downside? You want to be a divorce raped oofer or what?

What's in it for me?

who cares
marriage is for fags and dykes

>>510747731 (OP)
>1940/50s
>era of free love
these girls then went and found betabux husbands who need to pay for their affection and support them after giving it away free in the 60s and 70s.

>zoomers killed
How about women having more power than a federal judge?

>>510747731 (OP)
Based. Marriage as we know it is evil.

>get down on one knee to simp for your bride
>buy her a worthless stone we charge thousands for
>go to an altar and make yourself the sacrifice
>she gets everything; you get nothing

>>510747731 (OP)
Actually looking at that chart the decline starts with the younger boomers and older Xers in the 80s

>>510747731 (OP)
Unironically based zoomers
Marriage is the biggest scam in history

>>510747731 (OP)
Jews did, via the internet. Read the 1963 communist goals.

>>510747731 (OP)
Zoomers didn't give women the right to vote

Post War liberalism killed marriages and zoomers are the victims

marriage today sucks for both parties, just no reason to do it really aside financial benefits
>women expected to do all of household labor + have a job + deal with men raised by shit parents
>men expected to work and never talk about their feelings + unrealistic expectations about sex + women with unrealistic standards

>>510747731 (OP)
Is there a definitive study on the fertility of those who married vs not? And in certain age groups, doesn’t matter if married boomers had kids

>>510747882
divorce rape only happens in america with their stupid laws

>>510747731 (OP)
Marriages literally DO NOT make sense and are unnatural.
The ONLY reason men could enforce permanent monogamy was by force/taking rights away from women.
After the sexual liberation happened in the west why would you cuck yourself just because of ""tradition"".
Conservacucks are retards who can't adapt to modern societies.

>>510748572
I just want to come home to a nerdy redhead that I can pamper and love.
I know I'm an incel virgin white male so on and so forth, but like can't you just allow me this?

>>510747731 (OP)
>be me mid 20's
>flirt with early 20's/18 and up girls
>get accused of being a pedophile
>some of these same girls get holed out by millennials
Okay millennials you won. I never had beef with you guys that was just media gen division sloppa. I want a milf.
Oh and I'm getting divorce raped currently by my zoomette wife.
Things are still looking up, but seriously what the fuck is wrong with these dumbass bitches?

>>510748758
>redhead
Gross

My ex wanted to marry me. Then I cried in front of her because my childhood female friend got really sngry at me and told me she never wanted to speak to me again because of my girlfriend and as a result she didn't want to get married anymore. There are ways to make that sound less pathetic but I won't bother because it deserves to be seen as that pathetic.

>>510748918
You dodged a bullet.

>>510748825
I'm sorry I didn't realize you were blind anon, a redhead is defined as a person that has a beautiful shade of red possibly orange in their hair. It's like if autumn leaves became hair.

>>510747731 (OP)
No fault divorce and women's abuse of it killed marriage. But tradcucks are too chickenshit to talk about that.

>>510748825
Redhead women are absolute peak. A 5/10 redhead immediately becomes an 8/10. I never dated one but I'd love to.

>>510748545
you have no fucking idea what you're talking about

>>510747731 (OP)
You can't really expect people average aged 23 to be married and have kids. My parents had me in 1978 (I know leave /pol/ grandpa) and at 23.5, this was boomer parents too. I do agree its sad how few White people have kids and its a sad how we basically White Genocided ourselves but nothing can be done, as our forefathers the Neanderthals were exincted by Homo Erectus, so our our replacements, the Muslim Arab mystery meat whites going to take over. but I digress.

>>510747731 (OP)
Females did in the 70s and 80s
Only so long these filthy useless holes can do the same scam.

>>510749005
I mean my ex had BPD and a shitlosd of medical issues.
But she was the only woman to ever love me.
And she wrote me love notes.
And told me I was the first and only guy she dated longer than a couple months.
And that treated her like a whole person.
I know maybe it was all bullshit but it still hurts to have given that up.

>>510747731 (OP)
Now list the differences in Society from 1940 to 2025

>>510749284
Sorry that happened to you anon. I hope one day you'll find someone like her (or her herself) again.

>>510747731 (OP)
It's the logical consequence of women having "rights" and being "equal".
Women have every power in the world right now and you get nothing. Every woman's husband is the government now, and all men pay them in various ways without even having them in the bed.

>>510747731 (OP)
I actually literally just got into the final boss fight with my parents and uncle over me not being married or dating. I KO’d my unclr and I got arrested then released lol. My uncle’s daughter got engaged and that’s what triggered the fight. They started calling me an incel and how friendless and worthless and an embarassing shame I was, that I’m a faggot homo and can’t get girls. Literally while my uncle was still screeching, I interrupted him by slamming the steel vase that was to my left onto the right side of his skull. Dude tumbled over silently and my parents panicked lmfao.

BTW jail wasn’t anything like the kikes and troons here say it is, I just got let put of jail and everybody there was a nigger but that’s it. There’s no gay sex.

>>510747731 (OP)
Good.
Women aren't worth marrying
I'm glad at least zoomers are understanding this.
If you're going to act like a dog. Be treated like a dog.

>>510748545
Portugal is one of the worst countries for men when it comes to divorces, think Spain, the Netherlands and Germany are the only ones that are worse. By all accounts Spain is the worst.

>>510749116
yes I do
no one gets divorce raped here
we just had one of our national team players, a guy who makes like 7 millions a year, he divorced and he didn't have to pay anything to his wife and his alimony for his kid is just 600 euros
yes, 600 euros monthly

>>510749133
You're right it should be a 28 year old man and 23 year old woman.
>mystery meat Arabs
That's basically everyone from the Balkans already and they're considered "white" like Bulgarians and shit. And a lot of Scottish and Irish women are bigbacks, not all but a lot. Being white isn't enough by itself. But I'd rather have them than all but the most chad-tier middle easterners (Persians)

>>510747731 (OP)
I blame the women!

>>510749389
>I hope one day you'll find someone like her (or her herself) again.
Huh?

>>510749432
>BTW jail wasn’t anything like the kikes and troons here say it is, I just got let put of jail and everybody there was a nigger but that’s it. There’s no gay sex.
Jail is one thing, prison is another. Prison is where the Kony warlords thrive.

>>510749481
But I like dogs, they're cute and fluffy and loyal and smart.
Like me.
But they also rely on a person wanting to choose them and love them.
Also like me.
They also like to pee on grass around youd house to mark their territory.
I don't do that, thankfully, but I could if neccessary.

>>510748758
>I just want to come home to a nerdy redhead that I can pamper and love.
>I know I'm an incel virgin white male so on and so forth, but like can't you just allow me this?
If even if you did have wife or girlfriend she/or you(probably her much sooner) would eventually get bored of you much sooner.
You idealize something that DOESN'T fucking exist.
Monogamy has never meant to last past having a child for humans.
Incels are NOT blackpilled. They cannot accept fundamental human nature.

>>510749284
BPD girls aren't real. They impersonate a good girlfriend and they show you who they really are to control you when they're displeased. She didn't love you at all, man.

>>510749623
I just mean that I hope you find her again.

>70% of 1980s are married

wew im a loser, 30% genetic detritus represent!!!

>>510749542
no it's not
see my answer above
spain worse? kek
>https://www.spanishprobatematters.com/spanish-matrimonial-property-regimes/
>Separate Property Marital Regimes

This regime is the most familiar for UK citizens. Each member of the couple is the owner of his or her properties no matter if they were acquired before or after the marriage.

>>510747731 (OP)
>it's not real love unless you sign a contract with the government
go ahead and list any benefit at all for the man? and no one gives a shit about a slightly higher tax deduction, you might as well say the benefit of marriage is free avocado toast one a year

>>510749692
Gosh darn you are... really...
kind of an asshole.

>>510749738
>BPD girls aren't real.
TRVKE

>Only around 10% of 14-25 year olds are married!
wow.. incredible discovery OP!

>>510747731 (OP)
I have a bud who's unofficially married with his gf and has kids. We still hangout.
Marriage will kill friendships, life and will make you a souless wagie golem

>>510747731 (OP)
>just let the (((State))) be the arbiter of loand marriage goy
Nah.

>>510747731 (OP)
Zoomers are just the nail. Jews and women were the hammer.

>>510749586
well good for you then, men get tossed out of their own homes here when women get tired of them and use their offspring as leverage in court

>>510749586
this does not happen anymore because men just not share their money with their wifes and in the balcans just tell them that they will butcher the bitch in case of a divorce. Who knew that hiding your money from the bitch and having a knife collection ( not a CS2 one but real one ) is the way to stable and happy long marriage.

>>510747731 (OP)
Boomers killed women worth marrying and the resources needed for it

>>510749992
Basically me and mine. We wear rings but never put anything on paper. Fuck the jewed marriage contract lol, imagine signing something backed by jew matriarchial law

>>510747731 (OP)
I married a zoomette. Or I guess she married me. I'm an older Millennial and even before we'd met IRL she was already talking about marriage and the second time she came here we got a legal marriage.
Before anyone asks, she earns more money than I do and her family as a whole has way more money than mine.

>>510747731 (OP)
70% of 80s babies are married?
Well, half are pre 1985 I guess

mass immigration, automation and outsourcing killed the idea of marriage. both adults need to work full time now. the stay at home (homemaker) parent model is done. People cant afford houses. What's the point of bringing kids into that kind of shit state? i know plenty of people now in their late 30s and early 40s who are married and cant afford a house in the city they grew up in (austin). married households in which both adults have 4 year degrees and STILL cant afford a house in the city they grew up in. This kind of shit is very common now. People who conformed, got a degree, and follow all the rules are getting fucked hard. Imagine bringing kids into that world. college degree, both parents working -- that means day care. and living in apartments near scumbags. no privacy. pointless. it would just amount to suffering.

>>510750131
>second time she came here
What the fuck does that mean?
Is she Korean or something

>>510750124
Yea because the relationship is backed up on trust and love.
Now introduce the Jewish government and laws. It becomes corruptible

>>510748545
You should read up on your own country's laws, retard.

The stat about divorce being a coinflip is true for basically every single western country.

>>510749817
Anon Spain gave a housewife and stay at home mom 30 years of salaries to be paid out by her man because she stayed at home taking care of the kids. Divorce rape goes beyond properties.

>>510747731 (OP)
Nothing dries a pussy faster than a nice and agreeable man with no money.

>>510750093
how bad is the average hungarian woman?

>>510750110
looks like balkan/slav men know how to deal with women

>>510749909
You don't want the truth.
You just want idealistic garbage from the past that were NEVER true.
The 1950s nuclear family shit was never real.
You fail to adapt to modern societies and honesty deserve to get fucked.

>>510747731 (OP)
There is nobody to marry because all the good looking women who would make great wives and mothers are taken in high school and college the latest. Whatever remains is taken shortly after they enter the workforce. There exist very few good looking (7 and above) women that are single and have a good heart, are modest, raised in a decent family, soft spoken and pretty. The window of opportunity when they are single is very very narrow. These are the 2% of women, the highest stock of females this wonderful creation can offer. If you don't frequent their circles or the events they attend you have no chance of meeting them. Women also don't go anywhere alone, so whatever hobbies women have or events they attend it is done with their husband or boyfriend and if they are single with their groups of friends.

tldr; there simply aren't enough single good looking young white women to go around for everybody, they are rare and exist mostly in very niche places where men without social circles (loners) can't get in to

>>510747731 (OP)
>I can't commit to one person for the rest of my life!
>Commits to covering their arms with tattoos for life.

>>510750285
>how bad is the average hungarian woman?
divorce rates are not the worst but the courts aren't fair, as for women they're the same everywhere

>>510750223
No she's American. She's whiter than me, being French Canadian I'm 98% Celtic and Normand and 2% feathernigger while she's pure white.

>>510750285
honestly only our gypsies have mastered the female language. many bulgarian men are librtard nigger euroid scum that simps for women. Gypsies just rape 12 years old girls, as all based creatures do.

>clear from the data that something before the 80s fucked everything up
>"zoomers did this"

>>510750319
Well it's not as if my parents are happy in their marriage, and they grew up in the 50s. (Yes I know they're old) but I think I can do better. (Yes I know that society overall is much much worse now) But even when I was in kindergarten I liked playing family with dolls. The amount of humiliation and work I've gone through in life only to be told I'm worthless now is ridiculous. And yet, I still believe I would make a good husband.

>>510750110
They came up with a term here called "femicide", basically making a distinction between "an ordinary murder"(lmao) and the murder of a woman, ultimately giving themselves a special status. This happened because most men just don't let themselves get fucked with and just take em out. As if a few sentences of hypocritical law jargon, that makes men worth less as humans than women when it comes to murder, is going to change the mind of murderers.

>>510749692
Hm, you seem reasonable.

>Monogamy has never meant to last past having a child for humans.
Are you willing to explore beyond that?

>>510750591
Here's the summarized version
1/2

>>510750561
if you kill the woman, just flee the country. You can be an illegal refugee in Germany and get some free cars and women there. German women secretly like to be raped. They secretly get wet when they heat "femicide" so it often.

>>510750680
2/2

>>510747731 (OP)
>wife no fault divorces cause she can
>lose house + half your shit + have to pay her lawyers + child support + alimony
You are literally retarded if you get married in a man hating gynocratic dystopian nightmare.
You can also get common law marriage rapes just as hard lol

>>510750561
They're literally talking about femicide here as well lol.
I guess soon they will have special victim status where a woman's life is worth more than a man's. Moral of the story: don't live in a gynocracy

>>510750912
lets be honest, if one of your gypsy kills a woman, he will no longer be in your country so these laws are just EU memes. I was joking about fleeing to Germany to rape and kill more women, the real deal is to escape to the country side where gypsies just fake their death and get a new identity.
Most of these laws are worthless. You have to both be a woman slayer and a simp cuck for you to care about it.

>>510747731 (OP)
marriage dies as institution if men do not outearn women by 50%
by US law marriage is illegal for about 80% of men mathematical

the +50% rule is a global, localized and interpersonal verifieable rul

>>510750912
Its oddly specific how these laws wash over specific regions at specific times. This will be implemented in Romania too anon. Female lives are special and worth more than male ones according to the neoliberal "democracies" that forego any and all expectations on women, but keep men at the same level of expectations as the first half of the 20th century.

>>510747731 (OP)
Capitalism killed marriage.

>>510751175
The problem is that, one or two generations are enough to set Europe back forever and prime it for massive civil wars and unrest. Just two to three generations of Germans not having German kids will lead to an Afro-Asiatic infestation that will not be able to maintain society. The women of the future will beg for men to take action, but there simply won't be any willing to nor would there be enough men of original stock to begin with. They have collectively doomed our offspring, legacy and future generations.

>>510749992
None of the married men I talk to at work have any friends. Their wife and kids pretty much soak up their entire lives and they just live to work.

that shift rightward in the 40s->50s is when it actually died
you're just being a boomer blaming people for recognizing patterns and opting out of raw deals

>>510751426
who cares? we will all be dead by then
most people are just plain garbage regardless of their race or ethnicity
do you remember covid for example? how people behaved?
just let it burn

>>510751608
It's just depressing to have survived all of nature throughout the millennia, only to know that it's either not worth investing into the future or that, in case you have offspring, your offspring is sabotaged on a civilizational level and set up for hardship.

>>510751608
this is my counter argument. i have a legal certificate of me being vaxxed, but i am based. it costed 30 levas. this is how people should behave.

>>510749992
I suspect the real reason tradcuckery is being pushed so hard is that marriage and families chain men to the system

>>510749751
It's probably quite female biased from genX whores marrying boomers after those got their first divorce.
I'd be curious what the OP chart would look like separated by sex.

>>510751886
portugal kek
I like bulgaria now
and romania

>>510747731 (OP)
>falling for the marriage meme
good luck paying the alimony to someone who is probably cheat/dump you

>>510749432
Bless you anon may good times be ahead

>>510747731 (OP)
good
anyone getting married today is a simp to a whore

>>510747731 (OP)
Marriage is a vestige of a functioning society

>>510751886
how hard was it to get one of those fake certificates?

>>510747731 (OP)
Government getting involved in the marriage contract killed marriages.

>>510748215
>Actually looking at that chart the decline starts with the younger boomers and older Xers in the 80s
You can't read a chart apparently. That's birth decade. So "1980s" here includes the younger Xers and older millennials.

>>510747731 (OP)
Marriage is a scam.
Until the entire institution is thrown upside down, no point signing an unfavorable contract.

>>510747866
You DID this

>>510752298
i had to fake liking boomers to go talk to a boomer "friend" doctor and arrange the deal. given that the doctors themselves talking about the vaxx being "nano kikes you inject in your blood", both sides were up for the deal.... but still.... i had to fake friendliness to boomers: 7/10

>>510752501
also i am such a shizo that i do nto care about breaking laws. I literally talking about beheading women above. I have had cops called on me many times. I am just a balcan animal.... which means i have no problems going to the illegal way from day one when i have to solve a problem. I am just an animal. and animals do kill women. which makes women think twice. animals also fake documents and commit crimes.... animals also live like humans in this world.

>>510749432
holy kek
fighting the good fight anon

>>510747731 (OP)
i tried, all i can say
t. zoomer

>>510747731 (OP)
no fault divorce and alimony rape killed marriages

>>510752748
what are those?

>>510752748
>>510752501
balkanoid bros..

>>510753058
Cloves. Probably garlic cloves.

>>510753058
Cheese... we have like 50 different cheese types. Of course, this guy is rich because he eats only 1 slice of bread and a lot of cheese and salami . this shit right here on the table is like 20 levas + 1/2 of 8 levas + 4-5 levas + 5-6 levas + 1 slice of breat at around 0.2 leva = so he had a fucking a snack for like 30 levas just to play heroes 3 - what a fucking mad lad

this is like 1/25 of minimal month salary just to play heroes 3 of might and magic like a king

>>510753155
actually yes. i was wrong about the cheese. damn

>>510753414
i have eaten a cheese that was shaped like this a few weeks ago so i though about it. i was wrong however. still.... like 25 levas to have a feast playing heroes 3 is a lot.

me and my mom are now homeless due to my dad.

>be stuck living with parents due to my own divorce
>ex-wife was literally ended up being convicted pedophile, scammer, and thief
>only relevance of that is my father blames everything she did to me and my family, on me
>father has struggled with anger issues and enjoying be cruel to people/animals
>father is a alcohoic, to the point his skin, eyes, and general appearance look like he is close to death
>he is short, fat, and waddles
>my mom does everything for him. all cooking, cleaning, even helping him with his job
>dad isnt nice, but acts entitled and yells/insults her all the time
>he blames her for anything and everything
>she never stands up to him, anytime she does he uses anger and violent threats to intimated her

>one day, he goes to beat my dog because he is in one of his worst moods yet, and is very drunk
>dog bites him, barely breaks skin
>he acts like my dog attacked him for no reason, and says she has to go
>if she isnt gone by the end of the night, he will get rid of her himself and throw her off into the woods from the highway.
>say thats insane, illegal, and im working on getting out of here(i just am 3 weeks into a new job)
>says he is done
>starts punching me, I dont fight back out of literal pity for the broken weaken shell of my father
>he breaks open my lip, but busts his own knuckle
>gets upset about his knuckle, blaming me and says if he busts another one - ill lose a tooth for it.
>says he wants everyone out of his sight, out of the house
>wont let me or my mom even pack our things
>leave with barely anything, and have nowhere to go
>he still is calling and making demands of my mom to help him with things he doesnt know how to do
>He is being angry and mean,
>refuses to admit he is drunk, or that he did anything wrong
>he is now excited he finally gets to freely drink, watch porn, smoke weed, and cigarettes inside.

>some OF girls are getting more money from my dad than me or my mom ever did

>>510753483
It's okay anon, it's not your fault I have an obsession with cooking shows.

>>510753522
still you know more about the cuisine than me. Good job. I guess i can beat you at heroes 3!!! This is my cope. I will play Necropolis and Sandro, just to be sure... of course.

>>510753495
have you considered MAID? its free for you

Good riddance to that outdated slavery contract. Women don't want to be married, they just want the man's money and attention. Men don't want to be married, they just want bragging rights and sex. It's best for everyone involved to just engage in prostitution.

>>510753671
how am I less bitter and sad person than you?

>>510753667
Sounds fun and yes, you'd beat me.

Low marriage in zoomers is a consequence of gerontocratic policies.

>>510753787
nice :D

>>510753796
>gerontocratic

nice

>>510753773
practice

>>510753857
at least you are clever and funny, anon

>>510753495
if youre not indian i would take you guys in, theres still good people in the world anon, keep your chin up

>>510747731 (OP)
Good, modern women are niggers and you better god damn believe I'm jealous of the fucks who actually married their childhood sweetheart and lived happily ever after. All 500 of you. Be happy you assholes.

>>510747882
This.
>old days
Her father pays you to take her dumb ass off his hands
>Modern times
You have to pay for the privilege of simping for some whore, get married, buy overpriced ring, barely get sex, and she divorces you anyways.

JEWS

>>510749042
Jews invented no fault divorce, and marital rape laws. Look up where marital rape laws come from
>one guy rapes his wife while in the process of divorce
>that means women can withhold sex as relationship blackmail

>>510753342
Charcuterie boards must blow your nips off.

>>510750110
Slavs know how to deal with women. Bless you anon; would that we could make that more common here in the States, but we've still got a long way to go before men/police stop getting their panties in a knot because some dude smacked his disrespectful bitch up a bit.

>>510754774
I'm 32 and already watching all those relationships deteriorate lol.My magic the gathering group consists mostly of friends who have been divorced or are in a divorce right now

>>510755662
MtG players aren't known to have high woman wrangling skills. That may be a bad reference point.

>>510747731 (OP)
there is literally no point to or reason for marriage.
If you want to have children with a woman, you can just live with her like a normal person, without fagging around and getting the state involved. Also saves you alimony and all that shit, child support is a very reasonable thing and thus can be stomached if it comes to that.

>>510747731 (OP)
kill yourself you fucking retard
same goes for every fucking retard that bumped this retarded thread
Kids aren't getting married because they're fucking KIDS you stupid cunts.

>>510747731 (OP)
Women should choose to fight to the death over me, then maybe I’ll marry the one who wins.

>>510752748
Not gonna lie...
I envy you, Bulgarianon. That looks cozy as fuck.

>>510747731 (OP)
? zoomers are just going along with the society they are born into, like we all do. the prior generations killed marriage, starting with the boomers.

>>510747731 (OP)
Right after the internet became a thing on houses.

There's quite a lot of butthurt incels and fuckbois itt

>>510747731 (OP)
Clearly caused by feminism and more women entering the workforce instead of staying home and being mothers.
>Lets compete against each other to make the upper class richer!

>>510747731 (OP)
Based zoomers.
I love how eglin troons seethe that they are:
>Not falling for the marriage meme
>Not falling for the booze jew
>Naming the jew

>>510750217
>truth nuke
none of the married people are having children
the jig is finally up

>>510748054
This.
The only real way to wed a woman is to kidnap her, carry her away on a horse and fuck her until she's addicted to you like a heroin junkie

>>510747731 (OP)
I killed my libido. Now I'm free from slaving away to buy a brand new heavily used pussy that I won't even own.

>>510747731 (OP)
Boomers killed marriages, zoomers prevented them
Zoomer:condom::boomer:abortion

>>510757008
Marriage is nothing but the opposite of what male-female relationship is supposed to be, it's basically femdom through beaurocracy, fuck eurocucks for inventing this curse .

>>510749432
Vased.

>>510749481
Dogs deserve better.
>>510749685
KEK. Get a dog girl.

>>510749744
I mean I can text her still whenever but we're not gonna date again.

>>510750217
Yeah but line go up.

>>510751261
Reminder that the fefail race is literally AIDS.

>>510751952
Not only tradcuckery but also wagecucking, chemical lobotomies aka getting drunk, etc.
All these psyops are run by the same eglin troons for the same reasons.

>>510748526
>>women expected to do all of household labor
Oh wow they have to occasional clean a kitchen or change a diaper. THAT'S BASICALLY SLAVERY!

>>510758488
Household labour PLUS work. I see my mom doing it and empathize. That said, she does work fewer hours. Cushy job.

>>510747731 (OP)
There is nobody to marry because all the good looking women who would make great wives and mothers are taken in high school and college the latest. Whatever remains is taken shortly after they enter the workforce. There exist very few good looking (7 and above) women that are single and have a good heart, are modest, raised in a decent family, soft spoken and pretty. The window of opportunity when they are single is very very narrow. These are the 2% of women, the highest stock of females this wonderful creation can offer. If you don't frequent their circles or the events they attend you have no chance of meeting them. Women also don't go anywhere alone, so whatever hobbies women have or events they attend it is done with their husband or boyfriend and if they are single with their groups of friends.

tldr; there simply aren't enough single good looking young white women to go around for everybody, they are rare and exist mostly in very niche places where men without social circles (loners) can't get in to