Thread 511997641

There are highly cost-effective interventions that could prevent one circumcision per dollar or more in expectation.

If we assume this reduces sexual pleasure by 20%( Most estimates seem to range between 10% and 90%, (Do note sexual sensation/pleasure is different than sexual satisfaction, effects on sexual satisfaction seem to be much smaller (although there is also very similar life satisfaction after couple years between new lottery winners and newly acquired paraplegics—cf. narrative life satisfaction vs. direct hedonic wellbeing) and it is notable that there is significant methodological difficulty in objectively measuring differences in pleasure, resulting in significant uncertainty here—although there is high information value in investigating further) and that sexual pleasure accounts for 5% of life happiness (I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that a male with no sexual pleasure has lost at least 5% of his overall happiness on average; of course some males value much higher and some much lower) for average males we could get a rough Fermi estimate of 5% x 20% = 1% reduction in life satisfaction, and if we very, very crudely say that this is similar to losing 1% of 5O years of QALYs, this would be losing .5 QALYs per circumcision, and preventing one circumcision for one dollar would be 2$ per QALY.

I think malaria nets - Givewell’s perennial top charity ( https://www.givewell.org/international/technical/programs/insecticide-treated-nets ) - are estimated to be about $50 per QALY, so even estimates that were extremely more conservative, like if an intact foreskin only accounts for 5% of sexual pleasure (Despite being 1/3 to 1/2 the skin of the penis, being probably most of the nerve endings and almost all of the fine-touch nerve endings of the penis, in addition to providing several significant sexual functions important for both male pleasure and female comfort and vastly increased masturbatory pleasure)

>>511997641 (OP)
and sexual pleasure only accounts for 2% of overall life satisfaction, it would still be equally effective as bed nets.

More importantly in my opinion, I think most of the harm of circumcision comes from extremely severe PTSD and trauma suffered in rare cases, as evidenced in the Reddit “circumcision grief” ( https://www.reddit.com/r/CircumcisionGrief/ ) a few studies, and numerous anecdotal accounts I could give. I think some lives are made negative at a ratio of 10:1 to 1,000:1 negative to positive experiences. I would personally say I am in the 10:1 to 100:1 category, despite having healed my PTSD after about three years of it, most men don’t. I suspect it is extremely unlikely my life will ever become positive without life extension/other trans-humanist technology.

I think it is not unreasonable to estimate that 1 in 10,000 men have their lives made net negative at a 10:1 negative to positive ratio (and/or equivalently, made 1:1 negative to positive ratio for 1 in 1,000 men, or 10% worse for 1 in 100 men.) In fact, I think this is conservative based on what I’ve seen; remember this is an experience of genital mutilation as perceived and experienced from the perspective of these men, I don’t think we would question this in the case of female or intersex genital mutilation, and the extraordinarily severe lifelong PTSD that can result. In fact, my understanding is that infant death, loss of the entire penis, and very severe complications leading to permanent extremely limited sexual capability due to circumcision are, combined, far more common than 1/10,000.

>>511997682
>>511997641 (OP)
That would mean that there is very, very roughly the equivalent of about 50 QALYs (~average American lifespan) lost per 1000 circumcisions, or about 1 QALY per 20 circumcisions. I think the extreme suffering here should count for significantly more, as I think a prioritarian, ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prioritarianism#:~:text=Prioritarianism%20is%20one%20interpretation%20of%20distributive%20justice%20and%20is%20often%20pitted%20against%20egalitarianism. ) suffering-biased ethic is probably correct (extreme suffering should be weighed more heavily than average happiness.) And I think the real numbers are possibly much worse than what I stated, perhaps by a factor of 10 or more. But even on this conservative estimate, at one dollar per circumcision prevented, this would be very roughly $20 per QALY, which is again surpisingly good.

Section 2
I think there may be some hits-based leveraged bets that could be 10X to 100X more effective in expectation;

For example, funding scalable trauma treatment (I was working on this and was quite close to finishing a book, and then next was plainning to create a scalable healing program, but burned out and had to quit, partially due to disability and severe funding constraints.) Currently quality circumcision trauma healing is extremely hard to find, so this would be a huge boon, and since I’ve already completed most of the work this can be completed relatively cheaply.

I think $10,000,000 could double the chances of foreskin regeneration happening soon, or perhaps bring it forward by 10 or 20 years in expectation, and I know people who are actively seeking funding to make this happen. Once the procedure is available this can be self-funding - an estimate based on Aella's research https://www.hegemonmedia.com/p/survey-data-shows-the-foreskin-regeneration gives a

>>511997719
$200+ billion market for foreskin regeneration, another indication of value - and as a cultural phenomenon this could lead to much lower circumcision rates or even speed the banning of it in developed countries.

I know some native activists in sub-Saharan Africa ( My understanding is that circumcision is not at all cost-effective for fighting AIDS compared to other interventions, even if the studies were accurate, but there are some very severe flaws in the studies and more recent research contradicting that there is any positive effect—although strong caveat that I haven’t looked into this deeply. ) who are fundable for a very, very, very small fraction of what US work costs, making this potentially extremely cost-effective, and it is unfortunately highly under-funded. One obstacle here is that we would need some infrastructure set up to make these activists more fundable and effective.

So, all things considered, I think if we are serious about improving the world, we should not dismiss this out-of-hand and at least do a deeper dive into this to confirm how cost-effective it in fact is. All of these are quite rough estimates, hence why I tried to be conservative, deeper research would be needed to confirm.

*Note I did not count flow-through effects here for most of this, and I think flow-through effects could be quite significant.

Also

Check out the health equity campaign (HEC) https://intaction.org/intactpac/ put on by Intaction. They’ve prevented circumcision from being added to Medicaid in some states, which is known to significantly reduce rates, so for probably something small, I would guess less than $100,000, I would say in expectation they’ve prevented something like 5,000 circumcisions per year as long as these policies stay in place, which could be for several years or even decades, which could mean as low as $1-$2 per unnecessary circumcision prevented.

>>511997766
Much more importantly, Intaction is now lobbying at the capital, and this is the first time this has happened in US history. It will be much harder to have an impact, but the impact could be much higher if it at all adds momentum to broad public debate on the topic and ultimately to the (at least nonreligious) practice being banned completely in the United States, which could have a serious ripple effect throughout the world considering a lot of nonreligious circumcision that exists in other countries has been due to US cultural and pseudo-medical influence ( I think it’s very clear that circumcision has far more medical harms than benefits if you look at the data, and agree that in the US the practice is best conceptualized as genital mutilation intended to prevent sexual pleasure and punish masturbation, which is where its roots in the the Victorian age in the US and UK originated, with attempts only coming much later to justify it medically. )

I would also check out Eric Clopper and his lawsuit in Oregon with his organization Intact Global https://www.intactglobal.org/ . Establishing the unfathomably severe harm of the practice with a win in the courts seems quite plausible, especially in Oregon where rates are very low, and there’s no question the practice violates equal protection. This could help lead the way to a state ban, which again could be crucial for momentum toward more state bans and eventually a national conversation and potential ban.

Importantly, I think both of these are taking relatively conservative approaches and not trying to challenge religious circumcision directly which is what defeated the attempted ban in San Francisco.

>>511997811
It seems important to protect children of all religions from genital mutilation and not discriminate against Jews and Muslims, however, I don’t think this is a realistic/helpful/cost-effective place to start as claims of anti-semitism end up severely distracting from the real issue of severe and permanent nonconsensual genital modifications performed on children.

All of these are not my own writings.!
!
!
They were taken from here and written by him I'm just reposting them
https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/cwu8DZpZKQbry2hp9/best-anti-infant-circumcision-charity

All men who were circumcised as babies deserve at least 150 million USA dollars adjusted for inflation / at least 44000 ounces of pure 24k gold (44000 ounces of pure 24k gold is worth 147727340 dollars on 06/03/2025).
They were innocent babies and were horribly, permanently and irreversibly mutilated for their entire one life on earth before it even began.
There is NO way to FULLY or even MOSTLY recover their lost foreskins and all of it's structures. Stretching does not nearly even come close to restoring it to it's original form.

>Why at least 150 million USA dollars / at least 44000 ounces of pure 24k gold?

Because there was a case of a adult man who merely had some mean words, drawings and jokes said to him at work. Nothing criminally illegal like death threats, leaking his social security number etc. He later quit his job at Tesla he wasn't fired. He was offered 15 million 2022 dollars for his hurt feelings by a usa judge https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/tesla-racism-lawsuit-worker-rejects-15-million-payout-rcna34655
He was literally offered 15 million dollars that the government would take from Tesla and hand directly to him. He rejected it because he wanted more then 15 million 2022 dollars but the point stands the government is willing to say mean words and hurt feelings are worth at least 15 million 2022 dollars.
Being circumcised as a baby is AT LEAST ten times worse.
At least 150 million 2025 dollars and at least 44000 ounces of pure 24k gold is a very very deep compromise.

>But anon I'm circumcised and broke

I know and you deserve better. Immediately quit your wagie job. You should never contribute to circumcisers. You deserve to be very comfortably retired NOW. A circumciser should not be richer than you unless they are bezos or musk. You should be almost infinitely richer than every american woman (circumcision is illegal in USA) unless she's Mackenzie bezos. She should be working a wagie job and serving you.

>>511997926
CASE #2

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2023/07/20/mcdonalds-lawsuit-hot-chicken-nugget/70436203007/

A random family is in a car. These are not employees they're just random customers.
They go to McDonalds drive through

Mom buys nuggets

Gives nuggets (corpses of tortured and mutilated animals that were factory farmed) to her little kid

Kid drops nugget on thigh

It leaves a slight burn on thigh

Burn heals completely leaving a small barely noticable and not painful scar on thigh

Girl gets 800,000 dollars.

Circumcising a baby is at least 30 times worse easily.
It's obviously way way worse than 30 times but whatever let's be extremely conservative

That's 24 million dollars or at least 7000 ounces of pure 24k gold.

You deserve this.

>>511997959
>But but but if I quit my wagie job and stop helping circumcisers I'll become homeless and have no money!!

Maybe or maybe not. Doesn't matter don't be a pussy.

In Minecraft if you want to be the ultimate Minecraft neet

Get a bow and arrows
Get a chest
Get a small shovel
Get a Minecraft mod to get Silica Gel Packets Desiccant things they only cost a few emeralds in the mod
Go to a place NOT NEAR YOUR BASE if someone makes it so you can't even go within 500 blocks of your base you still need to be able to access your chest
Dig a deep hole

Put bow and arrow, at least a couple hundred emeralds and the Silica Gel Packets Desiccant things in your chest. Optionally also add stuff like a small sword.
Close chest up very tightly.
Put chest at bottom of hole and cover with dirt blocks.
WHEN YOU GO TO SPOT WHERE YOU WILL BURY THE CHEST LEAVE YOUR MAP AND COMPASS AT YOUR BASE DON'T BRING THEM WITH YOU. IF YOU HAVE A PHONE MOD OR MODERN CAR MOD DON'T BRING THOSE WITH YOU EITHER

final step

If you ever become homeless or whatever in Minecraft go dig up your chest and do PvP before jumping into lava

If you are making a stash in Minecraft don't bury it at your Minecraft base you live at in game bury it somewhere like a public park in the Minecraft server and make sure you bury it somewhere easy to find like next to some sort of landmark in the server.
Make sure to keep in mind how deep you bury it like how many blocks and what the frost line is if you have the frost line mod installed on the server. Obviously at least quadruple bag it if you have the plastic bag mods on the server with some very strong airtight bags from the mod and put plenty of dehydrating packets in each bag if you have a desiccant mod

>>511998009
I wasn't exaggerating at all being circumcised is at least 100 times worse then mean words you volunteerly endure (you can quit job at any time) and at least 30 times worse then that girls burn

all circumcisers don't get reparations. That includes doctors who perform surgeries as well as parents among others.

Millions of dollars for the irreversible damages must be the priority.
No circumcised man should have to choose between wage slavery and homelessness while their are circumcisers who are rich enough they can comfortably retire young.

YOU DESERVE MILLIONS ACT LIKE IT

QUIT YOUR JOB IMMEDIATELY.

REPARATIONS OR RETRIBUTION

There are young woman with completely intact genetalia who have never been mutilated in their lives who are very wealthy and are comfortably retired.
THERE are men who had their genitals seriously mutilated permanently and irreversibly as babies who are poor and working jobs they hate to serve those women because if they don't work they'll become homeless.

Quit your job today.
Play Minecraft if you must.
You deserve to be a multimillionaire today

>>511998058
Give each person circumcised as a baby enough money to buy at least 44000 ounces of pure 24k gold in 2025

Blame parents
Doctors
Nurses
Police
Judges
Politicians
Lawyers

Living as a circumcised male makes sense if you are worth tens of millions of dollars and otherwise reasonably healthy

I don't want to focus too much on legality.
Morally we deserve it even if morality is subjective.
They're hypocrites for not giving us our millions each
We are justified to seek justice ourselves

Circumcised men need to understand they're totally justified in not working at all and taking as much welfare as they want

And if they become homeless for not working they should play Minecraft at the public library computer

>Also work for muslim ?

Maybe but again they can't be circumcising others
If they're promoting Islam they're promoting circumcising babies
So only ex Muslims who were circumcised as children and are vocally anti Islam and have been since they were young

If you are circumcised and you have a sibling that is uncircumcised you deserve full inheritance from your parents for mutilating you.
You had to suffer more if they wanna do 50/50 play minecraft, you are perfectly justified and I, for one, will praise you. Men need to grow balls again, yeah Minecraft is scary, but living as a cripple who isn't rich and has to work is miserable and humiliating.

I plan to get rich though investing/gambling
I will not contribute to society in any way I only want to steal

Circumcising girls is illegal. Circumcising boys is legal in every country on earth.
Circumcising girls is illegal in most.

Make them care

Give us what we deserve or we play Minecraft

Spartans fought guys off outnumbered 7 to 1

I could beat 20 feminist "males" myself in Minecraft PVP easily

>>511998098
Not everyone would instantly become a multimillionaire
No reparations for women
Reparations only for circumcised men who haven't helped circumcise others

Circumcised innocent men would become much wealthier then those who are intact or who circumcised others.

Tens of millions of men would be given millions of dollars printed into existence.
Yes it would cause inflation. That's okay.
The circumcised who haven't circumcised others deserve to be wealthier then the intact and or circumsirers

Boomers who circumcised babies SHOULD have their retirement savings inflated out of existence.
Sorry boomer retirement is over for you now you must go back to work or be homeless.
Time for gen z to take it easy

BRING THE DIGITAL CURRENCY OR TEN THOUSAND DOLLAR USA BILLS AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS USA BILLS NOW

100 USA DOLLAR BILL WON'T EVEN BUY YOU A SODA AND THAT IS OKAY

If bread costs 10,000 dollars a loaf that's fine.
It's the uncircumcised who didn't get reparations who won't be able to afford bread at first.
They can work for a circumcised person who got reparations for 15,000 dollars an hour or something

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WWVz_DcSeZc

He wasn't even arrested. He wasn't even handcuffed. If he can get millions of dollars why can't I?

>>511998148
>And just who will fund this?

The government's infinite money printers.
Also confiscate wealth from circumcisers and make them homeless.
Oprah Winfrey makes cream from baby foreskins she should be homeless

If someone offered me 150 million dollars or my original foreskin back I'd take the foreskin in a heartbeat. Since that is no longer an option I will have to settle for just the 150 million dollars instead. If I don't get either of those I'm playing Minecraft.

Someone from last thread donated 300 dollars of his hard earned money!
Thank you very much anon
>>511979868
>>511981243

It's very possible that you can prevent a baby boy from being circumcised for a few dollars or less.

Donate to these all of which I believe are legit

At least one of them accepts crypto. All accept debit cards.

https://pastebin.com/vL8DVFfB

Maybe don't donate to these ^^^ charities now if you don't want to get doxxed by having your donation and 4 chan posting linked together. Maybe wait like a week before you donate so it isn't obvious. Not 100% sure it's anonymous

>>511998348
I'm going to try to give 50 dollars to each of those three links soonish . (150 dollars in total)
My only reservation was that it didn't make a difference like voting but I no longer think that's a good enough excuse here's an unrelated example why

How can I donate in a way that I know my donation will be the difference between an extra human or animal being saved/spared and not being saved/spared.

For example if I vote in an election or stay home it'll make no difference. Of course I think people should still vote but if me donating a relatively small amount (less then 5 thousand let's say) to a specific charity or not donating will not make any difference then I'm not terribly motivated to donate.

I know against malaria foundation sends you an email about six months after your donation telling you where your donation funded nets for.

Is there any other charities like this? Or do I have to get creative and do things like buy ads and billboards to advertise the dominion documentary and whatnot?

I know individual consumer boycott does make a difference in sparing chickens lives Like in the first five minutes of this video https://youtu.be/brKhhZlUoOc?feature=shared [Open] he discuses a study that shows the average consumer has a 90 something percent chance of causing 1 - 900 extra chickens to be bred into existence tortured and killed.

https://philarchive.org/rec/MCMAIO

But I'm not sure if an individual donating a relatively small (less than 5k) to charity or not donating to charity has the same effect for saving or sparing animals or humans.

I want to know the most certain donation both for helping humans and the most certain donation for helping animals (mammals and or birds).

By certain I mean most likely that it will make an impact unlike me voting in a presidential election or staying home. Whatever donation is least likely to be like voting.

>>511998426
Here's someone else's response that changed my mind

It sounds like you want to be the one who creates a tipping point. E.g. in your election analogy, if 51/100 people voted for your preferred candidate, you'd want to be the 51st person who made the difference between them winning and losing. Or if it cost $5000 to save a life (every time, not on average), you'd want to be sure you donated the 5000th dollar.

That's totally understandable (if I'm interpreting you correctly), but I'm not sure it's a helpful way of thinking about things in this case.

Yes, marginal cost effectiveness is important— that's why we think about neglectedness. But once you've selected a cost effective charity, the usefulness of the concept breaks down a bit. (At least in IMO).

Sure, perhaps in some sense the 5000th dollar is more valuable than the other 4999, because it ticked the counter over. But it wouldn't have been the 5000th dollar if the first dollar hadn't been donated. In that sense, each dollar is equally valuable— they all have an equal chance of creating that tipping point.

That's why we think probabilistically. It's impossible to know ahead of time which dollar will make the marginal difference. So we look for the charities which give the best odds. That's part of what GiveWell does— their recommended charities are ones they think can make the best use of marginal funding.

At that point, every dollar counts, whether it's the 1st or the 5000th. This is a team effort, and your contributions aren't less valuable just because someone else happened to give the final dollar <3