Thread 512029646

socialism is pretty good

>>512029646 (OP)
...if you're too pathetic at life to provide for yourself.

>>512029646 (OP)
...if you need mommy government to tell you how to live.

>>512029646 (OP)
sniff

Yeah, especially the national kind.

True. Especially if national.

>>512030397
>>512030452
Socialism has nothing to do with providing for yourself or government intervention. Welfare and socialism have nothing to do with each other. Socialism is just worker ownership of the means of production, like cooperatives. There are modes of socialism that refuse the existence of welfare states - market socialism is a prime example. Under market socialism, you must provide for yourself just as you do now, except you now own your production instead of a capitalist. There are also minarchical modes of socialism, such as libertarian socialism. Combine those and you get libertarian market socialism, a market-based socialist economy with a minimalistic state entity - you still provide for yourself, you own your production, and there isn't some big soviet-like mommy state to over-govern you. This sounds fantastic, to me.
>>512030485
>>512030585
You guys lost WW2.

>>512029646 (OP)
so are helicopter rides

>>512029646 (OP)
Imagine the smell

>>512030859
The biggest losers of WW2 are Russians, Americans, Brits and the French

>>512029646 (OP)
The parts that detest islam and aren't communistic sure, socialism without suicidal retardation can be useful.

>>512030485
>>512030585
Name me practical differences between Nazi Germany and USSR from Stalin onward.

>>512030859
thats not good for jews though. It leads to all white nations like Germany pre-ww2

>>512031165
Jews

>>512031263
Name 5 Jews in upper echelons of Soviet government in 1950.

>>512031165
USSR has a command economy. USSR is ethnopluralist. USSR promotes sexual liberation, the break up of family, state atheism, ethnic mixing, and ignores the effects of genetics on society.
USSR is closer in cultural values to the US than the NS Germany.

>>512031165
Planned economy. The Nazis had a flourishing market, despite having some key nationalized industries. The entirety of the Soviet economy was planned by the Soviet state.

>>512031339
>>512031343
>command economy
Nazis were going there, they just faced a lot more opposition and compromised with big business.
>ethnopluralist
In the same sense Nazis recruited everyone and their mother into SS. In practice that meant nothing, Russification in key areas was the norm.
>sexual liberation
There were no differences in moral outlook whatsoever, minor shit at best.
>break up of family
On what are you basing this?
>ignores the effects of genetics
Only proper point you made.

>>512031339
The Soviets didn't promote the "break up of the family," what the are you talking about?
>>512031113
Socialism isn't inherently communistic. Socialism is worker ownership of the means of production, and communism is the abolition of private property. You can have one without the other and vice versa. Marxism, in specific, requires both socialism and communism, but not all socialist or communist thinkers / experiments are Marxist.
>>512031195
Jews have no say about it when capital no longer exists. Jews only reign through capital, and capital only exists in capitalist systems.

>>512031335
Lazar

>>512029646 (OP)
>wants less choice
Sometimes I think socialists have no idea what their ideology entails

>>512030859
>worker ownership of the means of production
In practice that means nobody besides those in charge owns anything. A small body is required to control the distribution of the means of production among all the workers which would result in that small body holding all the power. Congrats you got same problem of capitalism again

>>512031542
>The Soviets didn't promote the "break up of the family," what the are you talking about?
The Soviets directly caused the decline of russian birth rates that are felt to this day. The disintegration of Ukraine is a direct result of Soviet policy regarding forced urbanisation/industrialisation
>>512031537
>In the same sense Nazis recruited everyone and their mother into SS. In practice that meant nothing
Being a part of the SS does not mean being a citizen of the German Realm
>Russification in key areas was the norm.
Due to pragmatism
>There were no differences in moral outlook whatsoever
They were like night and day. Lenin had forced sexual revolution, Hitler had guidebooks for schoolgirls on how to choose your husband.
>On what are you basing this?
See above

>>512029646 (OP)
I like the part where everyone is responsible for everyone (yes, by force), it’s just that I don’t want to pretend that equality could ever be real
>>512031542
But what if Jews are just inherently smarter and you’re coping? There will always be some form of hierarchy with jealous inferiors at the bottom

>>512030585
>>512030485
And how did that go?

>>512031863
Too well, considering the great powers had to incite another world war within just a decade.

>>512031863
Why did almighty ussr need millions of dollars from capitalist America?

>>512031830
White men got removed from AAA game teams and then AAA games all became worthless. Because White men are objectively far smarter than every other group unfortunately.

>>512032039
Video games don't matter

>>512029646 (OP)
Leftist don't want socialism. They want soi-shallism, where a bunch of kikes and trannies tell everyone how their hard-earned money shall be used.

>>512029646 (OP)
>>512030859
>>512031542
Just to help break it down a little more for the folks in the back that can't hear me:

>>512031751
No, it seems that you have no idea what it entails. Socialism is merely worker ownership of over the means of production, it has nothing to do with choice. You can have socialism with (leninism) or without (marxism) a state, you can use the state as a tool for its own abolition later (marxism-leninism), you can have a permanent minimalist democratic state (libertarian socialism), etc.
>>512031798
>In practice that means nobody besides those in charge owns anything.
That's not true, though, especially when socialism can be anarchist in nature i.e. nobody is necessarily "in charge." Again, it's just worker ownership of the means of production, this can be applied to any societal model, with or without a state.
>A small body is required to control the distribution of the means of production among all the workers which would result in that small body holding all the power.
Not necessarily. That is the Stalinist distribution model. There are alternative models, like Syndicalist distribution models, which work upon local democratic labor unions - a big nationwide system of cells no bigger than your local county, and all the representatives can be elected and impeached in a snap.
>Congrats you got same problem of capitalism again
Yes, this is a major problem with the Stalinist model. I quite agree. I don't subscribe to it. I believe in a minimalist state i.e. libertarian democratic socialism, with a syndicalist distribution model.

>>512032132
Western leftists primarily want to fit in the social framework that was carefully constructed by Jewish television and cinema and jewish pseudosciences like freudian psychology and whatever came out of the frankfurt school

>>512031542
What are you anti semitic or something? Get real kid.

>>512032149
> Socialism is merely worker ownership of over the means of production
LMAO

>>512032002
Why did america give them those dollars?

>>512029646 (OP)
>>512030859
>>512031542
>>512032149
Okay, let's keep it straight, fellas:

Socialism is:
>worker ownership over their means of production

Communism is:
>the total abolition of private property (as in capital i.e. land and production, not as in material possession)

Socialism and communism work together like peanut butter and jelly, and usually are intended to, which is the crux of marxism - however, you /can/ have socialism divorced from communism, and you /can/ have communism divorced from socialism, and neither socialism nor communism are inherently marxist (marxism being the existence of both socialism and communism at the same time, as well as being marx's personal philosophy known as dialectical materialism).

you could apply socialism to a market system, and thats known as market socialism, and under market socialism different cooperatives compete in a free market. all business must be cooperative, worker owned, but those cooperatives do still compete in a market. a system like market socialism could exist without communism, and normally is proposed to exist without communism, as the cooperative production is usually meant to be privately owned equitably among the workers, as capital. the existence of capital and market socialism are fully compatible.

vice versa, communism can exist without socialism, like in how in the soviet union there was absolutely no private property, but the workers didnt own their labor, the state did. this is known as state socialism, i.e. stalinism.

and, of course, in the case of Marx's proposed society, socialism and communism can exist together. A society can be both worker owned and sans-private property, and this is most commonly manifested in libertarian socialism and anarcho-communism.

You can combine market socialism and libertarian socialism to have libertarian market socialism, a capital-less worker owned market economy.

>>512032799
If it is not that, then what is it? Because, I assure you, that is it.

>>512031863
true national socialism hasn't been tried, chuddie

>>512033423
Oh, and side note, Stalinism is referred to as State Socialism because that's what Stalin referred to it as, because he was a braindead retard. Everyone these days calls it Stalinism because it wasn't socialistic at all.

>>512033423
You are arguing a false premise
Socialism is not capitalism anon
You are free to start your own business in capitalism which is effectively seizing the means of production in your definition

>>512033423
What an outdated way of looking at power.
Marxists really think that the owner of the can factory is conspiring against him, and not the Jew at hollywood.

>>512033546
>You are free to start your own business in capitalism which is effectively seizing the means of production in your definition
No, you dumb dingus, that is not true, unless that business is cooperative, which then yes that is exactly what I'm talking about.
You can just up-and-start a business under market socialism, too, but that business must be owned cooperatively. That is all.

Socialism is merely worker ownership over the means of production.

Capitalism is private ownership of the means of production, as in a corporation.

Market economics != capitalism itself.

>>512033451
Socialism is and communism are the same thing but without authoritarianism
That is the only difference

>>512029646 (OP)
>1pbtid
>socialism is pretty good
it used to be good, in our countries back when we were ethnically homogenous (white) and scandinavian socialism works because we have free market economy, we are basicly capitalist countries with welfare. kys OP your thread is shit.

>>512033635
true

>>512033635
No, because you are still arguing that it’s under the framework of capitalism
As I said, your definition is just starting your own business

>>512033655
That's not true at all, my friend. These terms predate authoritarian context.
Socialism has, since the 1700s, since the Saint Simon days, meant worker ownership over the means of production.
Communism has, since the early 1800s, since Peter Kropotkin, referred to the total abolition of private property in favor of communal property (hence the word "communism").

You have never read theory.

>>512031863
Uh huh, and how's liberalism working out for ya?

>>512033747
> These terms predate authoritarian context.
Nothing predates authoritarian context anon, you should stop reading theory and start reading history

>>512033730
Capitalism is only the private ownership of capital / production, not the existence of a market itself or the existence of capital itself.
Private ownership of capital is not necessarily capitalism if its owned equitably by all of the involved workers.
Capitalism necessarily involves directed private ownership by individuals, with, at a stretch, there being the existence of shareholders, whom are not workers.

Socialism is worker ownership over the means of production. You can have all three:
>worker owned means of production
>privately capital, owned cooperatively among the workers, that capital being the means of production they share
>a market system
That is not capitalism. That is market socialism. Close, but no cigar.

>>512030585
Peoples friendship instead of globohomo muttery and (((masterrace)))
Also peoples ownership of their goods

>>512032149
>socialism can be anarchist in nature i.e. nobody is necessarily "in charge."
Then I think this model you're describing is just anarchism or libertarianism

>like Syndicalist distribution models, which work upon local democratic labor unions
That is again an elective body, which will hold control over else, and unions will have further leadership structure within itself. Whereas in free market economy those most capable takes control over the means, this elective way by the mass might not function as well because 90% of the workers are not industrial-minded afterall

>>512033917
Marxism is literally a theory of history you retard, its called historical materialism for a fuckin reason lmao.
You are being intentionally obtuse.
When I say "predates the authoritarian context" I am specifically referring to the Soviet context in-which you so obviously refer.

Socialism and communism were both terms originally devised by anarchists. There was no authoritarian context to these terms until the Marxist-Leninist model came out with the October Revolution.

>>512033923
> Capitalism is only the private ownership of capital
You are free to run a not for profit organisation anon

>>512033989
>That is again an elective body, which will hold control over else, and unions will have further leadership structure within itself. Whereas in free market economy those most capable takes control over the means, this elective way by the mass might not function as well because 90% of the workers are not industrial-minded afterall
And that is just one model.
There are market models, too.
Market socialism.
See:
>you could apply socialism to a market system, and thats known as market socialism, and under market socialism different cooperatives compete in a free market. all business must be cooperative, worker owned, but those cooperatives do still compete in a market. a system like market socialism could exist without communism, and normally is proposed to exist without communism, as the cooperative production is usually meant to be "privately" owned equitably among the workers, as capital. the existence of capital and market socialism are fully compatible.

>>512034080
...Which isn't capitalism, it is just a business existing under a capitalist system. Cooperatives exist under capitalism currently, too, but that doesn't make them any less a socialist model of production. But the goal of socialist movements is to abolish the capitalist system altogether so all businesses follow a socialist model of production.

>>512034084
pretty good

I actually appreciate the commie attempting to explain instead of just screeching about incels like a reddit tranny

>>512034218
Like I said, Socialism is merely worker ownership over their means of production. It can be applied to many models, even competitive free market models like we currently exist in.
Point being, there's really no reason for capitalism. It's theft, your boss is stealing from you. We don't need our surplus value to be stolen from us to be able to compete against each other in a market structure, that's just unnecessary and gay. Communism never needs to enter the picture if its not wanted.

>>512034218
>fat miku
Remove this.

>>512034084
>Market socialism

Nah, i prefer democratic dictatorship.

>>512034361
Those types of people don't actually read theory and discovered socialist/communist/anarchist shit from twitter/reddit threads. They screech because they don't know how to answer basic pushback because they have no theoretical knowledge. Theyre retarded. Even Lenin complained about people like this all the way back in his day.

>>512033561
Cultural products are effective to be sure, but you can just either not buy them, turn them off or throw them away.
The can factory at which you work has a material interest in your exploitation, shorting your pay for your time (even though that is explicitly illegal), or by shorting your pay per piece, all the while trying to replace you with Mexicans or Indian h-1bs.

>>512029646 (OP)
offer me UBI, uncensored and unrestricted access to porn, vidya, anime, manga and music as well as piss cheap housing and I will agree to your commie horseshit.

>>512033561
But the Jew in Hollywood is conspiring against me. Using capital as leverage. Hence why I'm a commie, I believe in the abolition of private property i.e. capital, which naturally depowers entities like that, reduced to the social power any of the rest of us have in a system of common ownership.

>>512034727
socialism is not communism. socialism is not welfare. socialism is worker ownership over production. socialist nations can very well lack a welfare state if they so choose.

>>512035163
>gotta work
Not interested then.

>>512029646 (OP)
Communism >= Capitalism > Socialism

This is an IQ filter

That's the spirit comrade. Keep trying, no matter all the many disastrous failures. You'll get it right eventually (maybe).

>>512035529
then you can have a socialist state with welfare, just like how you can have a capitalist state with welfare.

you can have it, or you can not have it. thats my point.

>>512035718
This is a good IQ filter, actually.
With the exception of libertarian socialism, which is very close to communism anyway.

communism > libertarian socialism >>> market socialism > social democracy > (any) capitalism > any other kind of socialism >>> fascism

>>512029646 (OP)
biology > ideology
ideology is a jewish spook to get you to turn on your own kin

>>512035984
yup. good thing marxism is strictly anti-ideology. outlined right there in marx's work, the german ideology, that all idealism is poison of the human mind.

>>512033194
Jews.

>>512036034
this is seemingly the most common understanding among people who don't read theory. kinda frustrating but it is what it is. i am confident that socialism would be a more popular idea if more people were aware that it just means worker ownership over production, not anything about welfare or communism or WHEN DA GUBERMIND DOES STUFF!!1!

>>512029646 (OP)
Only if there are enforced national borders and social cohesion

>>512036257
I'm not reading your shit theory, I lived it.

>>512036317
That would be called national socialism, sir, but yes, that is doable. Worker ownership over production does not necessitate open borders or anything else of the sort.

>>512036383
I sincerely doubt that, and you'd know that if you read the theory

>>512036474
Check the flag, then check who was behind the iron curtain.

>>512036421
Do you think that national socialism could’ve had long term success if they simply didn’t obsess over Jews (plus other minorities I guess)? Can you separate the core ideology from the reputation of violent hatred?

>>512029646 (OP)
S E C R E T V M
https://youtu.be/2cyoMfpLiAI?si=nG8LjHfUZuPP_ZOr

>>512036579
The Soviet Union was not Marxist, for starters, so it has nothing to do with Marxist theory. You have not "lived the theory." Socialism is not Marxism, Marxism is a specific mode of Socialism that Socialism and Communism in tandem in accordance with dialectical materialist philosophy
What you lived was the Stalinist mode of Communism, which is a very specific model, and does not reflect Socialism because there was no Socialism. Socialism is worker ownership over production, and workers didn't own their production in the Soviet Union. It was a Communist nation, in that there was no private property, but it was not Socialist in that workers owned nothing.

I am not proposing the Stalinist model whatsoever my friend. No one does these days. Your point is irrelevant.

>>512036776
It's always the same fucking spiel with you retards. All these commie regimes are never commie regimes if they fail. Get bent. I told you before, I'll tell you again. Give me free shit or no commie playground for you.

>>512036637
Absolutely. Socialist nations have been proven to have greater productive forces than capitalist nations.
>see: the first 25 years of chinese development under mao, the rapid development of industry post-nationalization in nazi germany
A worker-owned nation would absolutely have long term success as long as it holds a firm national line, and remembers its national identity. Globalism and socialism are incompatible.

tl;dr - browns will kill the economy

>>512036930
>All these commie regimes are never commie regimes if they fail
What the fuck are you talking about? Did you read a word I said??
>What you lived was the Stalinist mode of Communism, which is a very specific model, and does not reflect Socialism because there was no Socialism. Socialism is worker ownership over production, and workers didn't own their production in the Soviet Union. It was a Communist nation, in that there was no private property, but it was not Socialist in that workers owned nothing.
I said it was Communism. Can you fucking read?
They were NOT Socialist, though, because workers didn't own production, the state did.
Are you dumb, for real?

>>512037101
Interesting. I’ll definitely study up more on the topic.

Thank you for being rational and patient, it seems rare online.

>>512029646 (OP)
socialism is just capitalism with the jews wearing brown suits instead of black ones

>>512037160
>Did you read a word I said??
I ain't reading shit. You were informed of the terms and conditions of my support. As far as I am concerned there is negotiation here. And if I do not get what I am owed from this contract, you will have a very bad time in your commie utopia.

>>512037357
*there is no

>>512037245
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpKsygbNLT4&t=1059s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEHYeeRCtVI
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/
These are three good places to start.

>>512037357
>>512037395
Okay then, you have point. There's all there is to it.

>>512029646 (OP)
>everyone is noticing kikes are the enemies of mankind
>lets post -ism threads like it's 2016
kill yourself

>>512037415
Cheers. I’ll give the 1st video a go

>>512037495
Ill keep the thread open if you wanted to leave your thoughts, friend.

>>512029646 (OP)
Listen. At the moment no one method has the perfect solution. Capitalism worked before but is now broken. Communism started broken but in the future would work. Don't let elites trick you into thinking there is only this way or that way to live take the good disregard the bad from all systems. This isn't a competition we either all win or we all lose. Socialism has good aspects that can be integrated with communism and capitalism to create a system that will work until the next phase. Until people are perfect there will never be a perfect system. Just live in the dao and be you. Practise ataraxia and just be content.

>>512030452
like we dont already have the worst police surveillance state going on right now currently

>>512033423
>worker ownership over their means of production
That's Marxism, socialism exists before Marx.

>>512029646 (OP)
>socialism is pretty good
In the space of all buttocks, this is the butt of socialism.

>>512038148
>That's Marxism, socialism exists before Marx.
No, Marxism is a socioeconomic mode of analysis, dialectical materialism, and its application to history, historical materialism.
Marx had a theory that he crafted, using Marxism, that society would transition into a stateless, classless society, known as Communism, through a proletariat-owned transitional state, known as Socialism.

Before Marx, Socialism was simply worker ownership over production and property, and formerly proposed Socialist societies were essentially idealistic worker-owned utopias.

>>512038366
>Marxism is a
You completely missed the point. Marx literally writes reactions to socialists who were experimenting with labor routines decades before he was active. They did not define socialism as related to means of production or stemming solely from workers. Marx develops that in the 1840s. You even seem to be aware that Marx came later because the bottom of your post references Socialism Utopian and Scientific,but fun fact, Marx calls the people doing experiments utopianist and refers to himself as scientific while he never performed experiments.

>>512038618
>Marx literally writes reactions to socialists who were experimenting with labor routines decades before he was active. They did not define socialism as related to means of production or stemming solely from workers.
What? Saint-Simon literally talked about worker-owned production before Marx was even alive.
>“The men who are best fitted to organise society for productive labour are entitled to bear rule in it. The social aim is to produce things useful to life; the final end of social activity is 'the exploitation of the globe by association.'”

>>512029646 (OP)
This is from the hentai of the fat brother who uses a drug to hypnotize her, isn't it ? The design of the chia is a 10/10.

>>512037815
I found the video and your perspectives to be very compelling.

But how would we fight the perception that socialism is about “wokeness” and unfair DEI hiring practices?

I don’t like Trump but when he says “meritocracy” I don’t hate it. Plus borders are cool too.

I don’t think that these concerns can be easily dismissed as purely a product of dumb “reactionary” conservatives.

I like the (mostly) free healthcare in my country, but what I can’t stomach is noticing that Ireland, England, Wales and Scotland all just so happened to get brown leaders right around the George Floyd/BLM era. There’s nothing fair, rational or scientific about it. When they ignore/sugarcoat Muslim men stabbing little girls in the street but then call young white men “toxic” just for existing, no matter our individual struggles.

What do you think caused this awful version of leftism in the west and do you see it going away anytime soon?

>>512036032
>when you're so ideological you reject the existence of the ideology that informs your entire worldview
see, this is what I mean. marxists are ideologically anti-biology, and they can't even recognize it

>>512038933
>The men who are best fitted to organise society for productive labour are entitled to bear rule in it.
Taking this in isolation, it could refer to any class. Liberals believe in the dictatorship of the merchant class, theocrats and philosophers believe in the priestly class, nationalists in the rise of the warrior class

>>512039348
He thinks idealism is ideology, doesn't know that materialism is an equivalent ideology. Etymological mixup on his part.

>>512030859
>Socialism is just worker ownership of the means of production, like cooperatives.
>>512030859
NO, THAT'S A FORM OF LIBERTARIAN SOCIALISM. That's in turn is a form of capitalism. Worker ownership is well-supported in US law. Most workers find it too much work and reject it, or it is unsuitable in some cases.

YOU advocate totalitarian socialism i.e. totalitarian dictatorship with a socialist veneer. It is organized crime continuing the rule of organized crime of past centuries. You try and confuse the two with your dissembling lies.

You are a genocidal criminal and accessory after the fact of the Inquisition, Gulags, and Nazi concentration camps.

>>512039510
You're fucking nuts.

>>512039229
>But how would we fight the perception that socialism is about “wokeness” and unfair DEI hiring practices?
Active practice. This comes manifest through cooperatives in the market, which is socialism in practice. More of our patriots, and your patriots, need to be doing business cooperatively to demonstrate the strength of national labor, the strength we have when we work together to produce more than the competing nations.

Basically, we need to take the national angle, as we've discussed. We need to talk to patriots. "Don't engage in globohomo capitalism, instead, work together with your fellow patriots to produce domestic goods for your people to enjoy."
That kind of thing.

Patriotism is considered pretty anti-woke by nature.

>What do you think caused this awful version of leftism in the west and do you see it going away anytime soon?
Angela Davis and people like her. She proposed an amendment to Marxism-Leninism, called Intersectionalism, which is basically the idea that race, gender, sexuality, and spirituality, all intersect in the middle at class struggle, and she managed to convince an entire generation of feminists that they needed Socialism to achieve "liberation."

It was all an optical trick, but it worked, and what was once a movement of strong working men turned into a big fucking crybaby fest full of college kids.

The rot will go away with the further promotion of national socialism, divorced from Nazi Germany, recontextualized for whatever country its being applied. Talk to the patriots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC7EfIg4zzg

This video is perfect proof.

>>512030859

in the digital age communism is just ultra retarded. there should be no central governance organ, national socialism is superior as an organisational principle. and that is that.
implementing is struggle, hard, and it drives on the economic and intellectual ingeuity of it's people, but at least it makes sense, in that it adresses these people and their capacities on a logical level. the theory of labor surplus also is essentially retarded, because it serves no purpose and is imprecise. theres no clear definition of what a mean of production even is.

hitlers definition of socialism actually makes more sense because it incorporates physical, biological and cultural attributes, immaterial

If you have an informational network that is essentially in real time, then the only thing you have to make sure of is nation(al defense), and that is entirely dictated still, either by labor, in racial purity, or in the accompanying degree of fitness that guides selective pressures within a society positively, even in the utopian case of total automation, or in physical fitness, to do war or implement labor for the purpose of heightening of the culture/race. in all of these also, resource conflicts persist no matter how, but the entity with the central governing agency will always lose in the long run. before you say national socialism has central governance, that is essentially wrong, it does have not fully. it derives its equality principles from consistency, and uses force as the binding corrective, not the other way around. communism gives no credit to the concept of force, in the sense that a piece of paper or a spoken word shouldn't have the same authority as a gun, or carrying a block of steel down a road, which they do not.


the only way to have a socialist principle of an idea that does not stifle creativity is if you don't have a central planning commitee and the national adjacent prefix to it. You still need authority, authoritativeness.

>>512039743
>>512039743
Correct on all counts

>>512039777
>in the digital age communism is just ultra retarded. there should be no central governance
Communism can be anarchist in nature, all Communism is, is the abolition of private property. That can come through the state or through a total lack of state on the polar opposite side.

Hitler's national socialism is compatible with communism.

>>512039563
>You're fucking nuts.
YOU advocate totalitarian socialism i.e. totalitarian dictatorship with a socialist veneer. It is organized crime continuing the rule of organized crime of past centuries. You try and confuse the two with your dissembling lies.

You are a genocidal criminal and accessory after the fact of the Inquisition, Gulags, and Nazi concentration camps.

>>512031165
Nazi Germans were happy.

>>512039371
Saint-Simon's Declaration of Principles vol II has a whole section about how the current system leaves the worker deprived of their production.
>The workers are thus liable to see themselves deprived of the pleasure which is the aim of their labour. As a result of this danger they develop a particular kind of need, which in turn gives rise to a quite distinctive type of labour. The aim of this labour is to prevent the violence with which idleness threatens industry.

>>512039992
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhPOrkGbpxk
nigger moment

>>512039992
You're a liberal- ergo you are for Canaanite style abortion of the youngest generations, reflected now in the impossibility for the three youngest generations in the west to afford anything or have secure prospects. Furthermore, as a liberal you ultimately stand for the final endgoal of liberalism- access to minors for self-gratification, which has been explicitly been argued in the past by members of both the Libertarian party of the US and observers of the Mises institute. To mention liberalist genocides and wars would be pale in comparison to the depths of your depravity.

>>512040492
Socialism is worker ownership of the means of production, it has nothing to do with the existence of the state or the strength of the state's presence if a state exists.

>>512040335
He doesn't actually care about authority this or government that. If he saw you protesting in public he would call the cops and realize for an iota of a millisecond the contradiction of his claims and his practices. Liberals have developed the most totalitarian system in existence. Liberal governments regularly cancel elections and popular votes, as we have seen from places in America to the entire national conventions of Romania and Moldova. They don't actually believe in freedom- only the total power of the merchant class.

>>512040588
>memeflag 36 posts by this ID
>'existence of the state'
Nams a society or nation of the past 300 years without a state.

>>512039992
It's not dictatorship if it's democracy, unless you mean dictatorship in a strictly metaphorical sense.

>>512040789
>>512040335
*not realize

>>512040821
It's the liberal's classic game: accuse you of that which they are guilty. He's hoping you won't notice that he doesn't actually give a shit about democracy and he just wants to own stuff and lord over people. He doesn't, but bursting his fantasy would destroy his motivation to go on in the dystopia he supports.

>>512036930
>>>512036776
>It's always the same fucking spiel with you retards. All these commie regimes are never commie regimes if they fail. Get bent. I told you before, I'll tell you again. Give me free shit or no commie playground for you.
>>512036930

This.

The WERE and are totalitarian communist and socialist regimes that BTW promptly execute know-it-all 'theory' LARPers like this guy when they take over--'useful idiots.'

It's organized crime bust-out--they plunder nations then say 'Who, me? It was dose not-real-totalitarian-socialist guys!'

Then fail again as another public or generation again buys in, brainwashed by the useful idiots.

>>512040815
Catalonia was anarcho-communist before it got stomped during the Spanish Civil War by Republicans. They have a fantastic economy during that period, and had thriving socialist productive forces without a state.

>>512040917
Is it totalitarian for the democratic majority to pass a motion that benefits the many? Interesting thought process, Mr. Libtard.

>>512029646 (OP)
When applied appropriately to classroom projects and small group undertakings of less than 10 people?
Sure.

For anything larger, especially as a sudden change in a system of government?
Fuck off commie.

>>512041109
Some of the largest international businesses are cooperatives, like Fonterra in New Zealand. Socialism works just fine, you plebfiltered libtard leafniger.

>>512040896
>It's the liberal's classic game: accuse you of that which they are guilty.

Yeah, sure, liberals are responsible for the USSR, Putin's neo-Marxism, and totalitarian socialism as you advocate.

You are a genocidal criminal and accessory after the fact of the Inquisition, Gulags, and Nazi concentration camps.

>>512041196
>Putin's neo-Marxism
You don't know what that word means. You don't know what Marxism is.

>>512040588
you don't own shit under socialism

"the state" owns everything
you eat zee bugs

>>512041070
1984 was a confession piece by a liberal.
>democracy is totalitarian
>rule by the rich is rule by the many (we're a republic, not a democracy! -screechers)
>War is peace because we can keep things on our terms, peace for us is peace enough
Many other examples. It's a worldview born of pure delusion.
>>512041234
It sounded a lot better in his head.
>>512041196
>liberals are responsible for the USSR
Actually... Yes! The liberal government took over after the Tsar was deposed, and that liberal government was replaced in less than a year by the communists. That's how utterly retarded liberalism is. Actually, if you look everywhere communism was tried, it was a liberal government that ruled previously. Liberalism will inevitably lead to socialism, usually Marxism.

>>512041070
>Is it totalitarian for the democratic majority to pass a motion that benefits the many? Interesting thought process, Mr. Libtard.


This time you pretend you're pro-democracy, conflating it with totalitarianism as you did libertarian worker co-ops.

They WERE and are totalitarian communist and socialist regimes that BTW promptly execute know-it-all 'theory' LARPers like this guy when they take over--'useful idiots.'

It's organized crime bust-out--they plunder nations then say 'Who, me? It was dose not-real-totalitarian-socialist guys!'

You are a genocidal criminal and accessory after the fact of the Inquisition, Gulags, and Nazi concentration camps.

>>512041511
>you eat zee bugs
The irony of course is that this was proposed by a wealthy pro-liberal elitist. You're referencing liberalism.

>>512041635
Debate him on it then. How is your two party unparty democracy any different than an actual one party state where candidates are the focus? Do you feel represented?

>>512041595
>this is not what we heckin' died for
Yes, it is. The function of a system is what it does.

>>512041196
Liberal jews are literally responsible for the Soviet Union???

>>512040973
>memeflag 46 posts by this ID
>Catalonia ("revolutionary Catalonian 21 July 1936—8 May 1937," muh "autonomous government" Generalitat de Catalunya)
Still a state/government. That's not a valid example.
Name a society or nation of the past 300 years without a state.

>>512041784
purpose*

>>512040815
Palestine is a country.
The state of Israel is a state, not a country.

>>512029646 (OP)
PULL OVER DAT ASS TOO FAT

>>512041795
That's weird because they said they were against liberalism, but also that they were genocided in 1937 and that's why they all moved to America? Everything is a weird ethnic narrative with them. Tall tales and revenge porn.

>>512041511
Socialism doesn't require the existence of a state.

>>512029646 (OP)
I can not fathom why Marxism is still a thing.

>>512041831
>Stalin
>Lenin
That's funny
>Marx
There's actually no good sources on this at all. His family had adopted old testament names but apparently those surnames are less than a century old.

>>512030485
>>512030585
It doesn't work doe

>>512042077
Liberalism was around since the 1400s, but it took nearly 350 years to be tried in America. Marxism was devised in the 1800s and was already tried by billions only a century later. Gotta hand it to them, they really knew how to package a coherent idea.

>>512041831
Both Palestine and Israel are states (and 'countries') with governments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governorates_of_Palestine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority

>>512041534
>>512041070
1984 was a confession piece by a liberal.

Sure, useful idiot accessory-to-genocide pro-USSR propaganda tovarisch. Liberal Orwell was plotting, as you say, the return of Marxism and totalitarian 'democratic worker co-ops.'

>>512041802
That's not a state/government. It was a stateless society, autonomous and self-governing. That is stateless society. I never said society without governance, I said stateless society. The state is a formal entity for government. Socialism can exist without a formal entity for government. No society can exist without governance, though.
You put words in my mouth because you have no other arguments.

Catalonia was a anarcho-communist society.

>>512030397
fpbp

>>512042051
>memeflag 46 pbtid
>'existence of a state'
Name a society or nation of the past 300 years without a state.

>>512042239
I look like him with facial hair and I own six guns. What's your bench press?
>>512042343
To be fair, state means different things to different people. I think government and state are two different things.

trvke nvke!

>>512030859
no it isnt

>>512042485
You lost WW2, complain about both Nazis and commies, and ironically it was Nazis and commies who spared the p*lish state.

>>512042343
I did. Catalonia.
the Strandzha commune in Turkey, too, if you're hellbent on denying Catalonia for some reason.

Neither of these had a state. They were anarchist structures. That does not mean un-governed, just without a formal entity whom has a monopoly on power. They were stateless societies.

>>512041183
>like fonterra in new zealand
Fonterra sells private shares while granting shareholders no vote, and requires supply co-ops to pay them off with an equivalent share buy-in to 33% of their supply amount while holding a monopoly.

It's also selling itself to another company, while giving none of the employees stock transfers meaning they lose control regardless of any holdings.
They voted against it and were promptly told to fuck off, kek.

>>512042485
Yes it literally is. Socialism is worker control of production.

>>512042581
>>>512042485
>You lost WW2, complain about both Nazis and commies, and ironically it was Nazis and commies who spared the p*lish state.

Sure, useful idiot accessory-to-genocide pro-USSR propaganda tovarisch. Not-socialist Stalin was, as you say, the return of Marxism and totalitarian 'democratic worker co-ops.' Hitler wanted to build more worker spas there too.

Up against the wall, useful idiot. You're an accessory.

Based

>>512042813
>useful idiot
You are borrowing this phrase from a guy who believed that the media should be government owned. I know you don't realize that, but rewatch Bezmenov again but just assume he's a Soviet plant. You'll see his messages very differently.

I think its crazy how these motherfuckers are genuinely going this hard up to bat for their own exploitation lmao.

>>512042277
>memeflag 46 pbtid
>'stateless society'
checked,
There isn't one, and (You) can't name one because none exist in modern history.

>'autonomous' / 'self-governing'
Still a government, aka *state*.
"Autonomous" <--(You)r word refers to the _formal_ *SYSTEM OF* governance and specifically in the case of Catalonia its adjunct and relationship to the nation-state of Spain; i.e. it has the relative 'highest' level of "autonomy" within and subordinate to the nation-state of Spain. Basque (also in Spain) is another example. Reference URLs were already provided upthread
Socialism always and in particular exists within a state, also known as government enforcement, *system* framework and network of control. That is how socialism coheres otherwise the society's system is chaos and "anarchy". Organization heirarchy and control of all modern industrial societies, occurs within a state framework and socialism specifically and particularly requires and mandates this to remain uniform and solvent.


>"put words in my mouth"
??
(You) are the one repeatedly trumpeting 'stateless society' and have been asked to provide an example of a society or nation of the past 300 years without a state.

>>512042886
>>useful idiot
>You are borrowing this phrase from a guy who believed that the media should be government owned. I know you don't realize that, but rewatch Bezmenov

Bezmenov? You are an idiot or think we are.

You're a totalitarian pretending to a benign voluntary libertarian socialism or democracy, and so accessory to genocide.

>>512043091
tldr, I hate politics and want politicians to be dragged into the streets and shot.

>>512042886
Lenin invented the phrase in relation to leftoids who dont get that tankie socialism is real socialism.

Bezmanov was indoctrinated but revealed a lot. He didn't say the media should be state owned he said they should be elected. Quite the opposite

>>512043049
At all times. It's crazy. They'll go into their depressed wages, watch their kids and cousins fail to pay back exorbitant student loans, watch healthcare be totally unaffordable and people go into bankruptcy for not being able to payback ambulance bills and turn around and blame it all on communism. Some of these people are just so trained to point the finger at anyone but the people fucking them that it's Pavlovian. You have to treat them like golems in skinsuits. Their brains have been lobotomized by capitalistkas and there's no hope for some of them, all you can do is set an example.

>>512043127
>You're a totalitarian pretending to a benign voluntary libertarian socialism or democracy, and so accessory to genocide.
Complete projection. Everything you're doing right now is exactly this. Examine yourself.

>>512043261
>He didn't say the media should be state owned he said they should be elected
If you elect your media representatives you're using government to do that. He's talking about Soviets electing press members. That's not the opposite, that's literally what he's advocating. You don't sincerely imagine people lined up in a board room voting for their media heads because the corporations allowed that, you just don't want to believe that Bezmenov who influenced an entire generation of neo-conservatives (liberals in slow motion) was actually a socialist.

>>512042641
>memeflag 46 pbtid
>Strandzha commune
Not a valid example or recognized as a country/nation
Already replied here >>512043091


>'anarchist structures'
They were governments, meaning a state and concomitant state structures. See: >>512043091
Theres' no such thing as an "anarchist structure"; there are *anarchical*[<--adjective] structures.

>'un-governed'
All governments are states.
Name a society or nation of the past 300 years without a state.

>>512029646 (OP)
Socialists would ban this (they already are)...

>>512043325
You can't deny that Atheism was enforced during the communist rule, and isn't now. Nowdays the poles have their own choice and they're abandoning religion

>>512043495
>All governments are states.
Those are two separate things. That's why certain governments have both heads of state and heads of government. Monarchs are heads of state, where state represents religion, culture, corporate bodies, etc.

>>512043558
>memeflag 23 pbtid
Read this --------------- >>512043091

>>512043499
They were Lutheran Christians who became secular. Half the list you're referencing in that picture is unattested.

>>512043523
No. I like women

>>512029646 (OP)
Women are vile creatures

>state and government are separate things
Wrong.

>>512043616
nobody is reading your stupid post brother.

>>512029646 (OP)
BRAAAAAAAAP

>>512043696
>3 pbtid
Go elsewhere.

>>512039194
Name? Your description is bringing up way too many results to narrow down

>>512043549
>You can't deny that Atheism was enforced
The Stalin constitution explicitly permits freedom of religion. Communist parties around the world today have religious groups in their respective countries. Liberalism has done more damage to religion in general than any other ideology in human history. Secularism is built into liberalism and uses a system of implicit-denial to grate against religion, brainwashing people out of opposing ideas. That's why liberalism is so successful: it promises wealth but forgoes any other ideology or spirituality.

>>512043762
how many post does it take for you to stfu and kill this thread?

>memeflag 46 pbtid
>'stateless society'
checked,
There isn't one, and (You) can't name one because none exist in modern history.

>'autonomous' / 'self-governing'
Still a government, aka *state*.
"Autonomous" <--(You)r word refers to the _formal_ *SYSTEM OF* governance and specifically in the case of Catalonia its adjunct and relationship to the nation-state of Spain; i.e. it has the relative 'highest' level of "autonomy" within and subordinate to the nation-state of Spain. Basque (also in Spain) is another example. Reference URLs were already provided upthread
Socialism always and in particular exists within a state, also known as government enforcement, *system* framework and network of control. That is how socialism coheres otherwise the society's system is chaos and "anarchy". Organization heirarchy and control of all modern industrial societies, occurs within a state framework and socialism specifically and particularly requires and mandates this to remain uniform and solvent.


>"put words in my mouth"
??
(You) are the one repeatedly trumpeting 'stateless society' and have been asked to provide an example of a society or nation of the past 300 years without a state.

>>512029646 (OP)
No, it’s shit. Capitalism is good however, as it’s the reason we have anime

>>512043837
>4 pbtid
Back to plebbit brainlet.

>>512043843
Ironic that capitalism is the reason we have trannies, even though they hate it

>>512043840
absolutely no one cares, kys.

>>512043696
This lmao He's mindbroken
>>512043835
The great thing about American history is that we don't talk about our first 20 years. Otherwise we have to bring up that Washington used his personal family crest as the country's flag, usurped military command, paid his troops with dollars that didn't actually have value at the time (a scam essentially), and his next major conflict after the revolution was hunting down people who refused to pay their taxes (whiskey rebellion,anyone?).

>>512043833
Marx literally called religion "the opium of the people"

>memeflag 46 pbtid
>'stateless society'
checked,
There isn't one, and (You) can't name one because none exist in modern history.

>'autonomous' / 'self-governing'
Still a government, aka *state*.
"Autonomous" <--(You)r word refers to the _formal_ *SYSTEM OF* governance and specifically in the case of Catalonia its adjunct and relationship to the nation-state of Spain; i.e. it has the relative 'highest' level of "autonomy" within and subordinate to Spain. Basque (also in Spain) is another example. Reference URLs were already provided upthread
Socialism always and in particular exists within a state, also known as government enforcement, *system* framework and network of control. That is how socialism coheres otherwise the society's system is chaos and "anarchy". Organization heirarchy and control of all modern industrial societies, occurs within a state framework and socialism specifically and particularly requires and mandates this to remain uniform and solvent.


>"put words in my mouth"
??
(You) are the one repeatedly trumpeting 'stateless society' and have been asked to provide an example of a society or nation of the past 300 years without a state.

>>512029646 (OP)
Yes

>>512044038
Opium was legal at the time. He's saying it's medication. This is the problem with historical post-modernism:it's forgetting what the times were actually like. It's like when Chinese historians bring up the Opium wars saying that the British were infecting poor Chinese with drug addiction but those same drugs were legal in Britain.

>>512044005 <--Plebbitard 5 pbtid
>>512043958 <--memeflag 26 pbtid
>memeflag 46 pbtid
>'stateless society'
checked,
There isn't one, and (You) can't name one because none exist in modern history.

>'autonomous' / 'self-governing'
Still a government, aka *state*.
"Autonomous" <--(You)r word refers to the _formal_ *SYSTEM OF* governance and specifically in the case of Catalonia its adjunct and relationship to the nation-state of Spain; i.e. it has the relative 'highest' level of "autonomy" within and subordinate to Spain. Basque (also in Spain) is another example. Reference URLs were already provided upthread
Socialism always and in particular exists within a state, also known as government enforcement, *system* framework and network of control. That is how socialism coheres otherwise the society's system is chaos and "anarchy". Organization heirarchy and control of all modern industrial societies, occurs within a state framework and socialism specifically and particularly requires and mandates this to remain uniform and solvent.


>"put words in my mouth"
??
(You) are the one repeatedly trumpeting 'stateless society' and have been asked to provide an example of a society or nation of the past 300 years without a state.

>>512044071
hahahah pathetic, I'm gonna go to the gym, you wallow in misery, it will feed my lifts.

>>512029646 (OP)
She’s in middle school you SICK fuck. You aren’t allowed to fuck her only other men her age are you freakin monster

>>512044201 <--Plebbitard larper 6 pbtid
>memeflag 46 pbtid
>'stateless society'
checked,
There isn't one, and (You) can't name one because none exist in modern history.

>'autonomous' / 'self-governing'
Still a government, aka *state*.
"Autonomous" <--(You)r word refers to the _formal_ *SYSTEM OF* governance and specifically in the case of Catalonia its adjunct and relationship to the nation-state of Spain; i.e. it has the relative 'highest' level of "autonomy" within and subordinate to the nation-state of Spain. Basque (also in Spain) is another example. Reference URLs were already provided upthread
Socialism always and in particular exists within a state, also known as government enforcement, *system* framework and network of control. That is how socialism coheres otherwise the society's system is chaos and "anarchy". Organization heirarchy and control of all modern industrial societies, occurs within a state framework and socialism specifically and particularly requires and mandates this to remain uniform and solvent.


>"put words in my mouth"
??
(You) are the one repeatedly trumpeting 'stateless society' and have been asked to provide an example of a society or nation of the past 300 years without a state

>>512030585
Based

>>512044317
Please stop shitting up this thread and seek help.

>>512029646 (OP)
None government socialism works most excellent in theory. If people would start up projects for purposes we could have things like free electricity, houses, food, all at the expense of time, materials, and management.

A house building project for example. You work making houses for 5 years and you earn a house as well you've made houses in the process, and it just keeps handing down.

But whenever government and forcing people to do things gets involved it all goes to shit. And I'd love to see an ass like that in real like.

>>512030397
>if you're too pathetic at life to provide for yourself.

Czechbro coming with a trvk

>>512044317
>memeflag 28 pbtid plebbitard "Stahhhp"
>memeflag 46 pbtid
>'stateless society'
checked,
There isn't one, and (You) can't name one because none exist in modern history.

>'autonomous' / 'self-governing'
Still a government, aka *state*.
"Autonomous" <--(You)r word refers to the _formal_ *SYSTEM OF* governance and specifically in the case of Catalonia its adjunct and relationship to the nation-state of Spain; i.e. it has the relative 'highest' level of "autonomy" within and subordinate to the nation-state of Spain. Basque (also in Spain) is another example. Reference URLs were already provided upthread
Socialism always and in particular exists within a state, also known as government enforcement, *system* framework and network of control. That is how socialism coheres otherwise the society's system is chaos and "anarchy". Organization heirarchy and control of all modern industrial societies, occurs within a state framework and socialism specifically and particularly requires and mandates this to remain uniform and solvent.


>"put words in my mouth"
??
(You) are the one repeatedly trumpeting 'stateless society' and have been asked to provide an example of a society or nation of the past 300 years without a state

>>512030397
>>512030452
>>512029646 (OP)
> whats a bell curve
Me and the general population are not equal. The general population is too pathetic and does need mommy government.

>>512044378
>whenever government and forcing people to do things gets involved it all goes to shit

>>512044645
lmfao holy projection Batman

>>512029646 (OP)
0/10 no tail.

>>512044916
>memeflag 29 pbtid Plebbitard larper 'muh pruhjekkshun' hurr durr

>>512031165
>practical differences between Nazi Germany and USSR from Stalin onward.

>>512029646 (OP)
I'd be okay if it was used correctly (not on niggers and jews and all other shitkins )

>>512045082
>no liberalism didn't do this
>it was everyone else especially the communists in the republican and labor and democratic parties
>yeah those millionaires and billionaire business commies

>>512045372
>welcome to liberal democracy.jpg

>>512045372
>memeflag THIRTY POSTS BY THIS ID Plebbitard sub-brainlet gigaretard

See ------------------------------------------ >>512040492
>>512040492

Not really, because if it works properly there would be always lazy asses pretending to avoid working as hard as the rest. Socialism only works the chinese way, with hard discipline and common sense of order for achieve it goals.. But if you're too spoiled to even know how to use simple tools and work... lol

>>512045815
>Socialism only works the chinese way

>>512045591
I'm so fucking tired of liberals.