Thread 512201436

Was there any way of winning in this scenario?

>>512201436 (OP)
The germans turned the whole city into rubble, which just backfired once they got surrounded and had nowhere to hide.

>>512201436 (OP)
Yeah should’ve done a breakout operation

>>512201436 (OP)
>Was there any way of winning in this scenario?
maybe if hitler got on his knees and licked the boots of every soviet soldier until his tongue was blacker than a nigger's anus

>>512201453
Which non-White were at fault here? Romanians or Italians?

I would have driven on Moscow instead

>>512202515
Unironically both and ironically ultimately was Germany’s fault for trusting them

>>512201436 (OP)
The Germans entrusting the Italians and Romanians to watch their flak during Stalingrad was the biggest mistake in Germany history. The Germans never recovered after that lost.

>>512202515
Mostly Germans for giving Romanians shitty equipment and stinging on the supplies.

>>512202607
Seems like Romanians are more reliable than Italians. Look at North Africa and later Italy in the war.
>>512203001
death by being a jew, damn.

>>512202523
Generals did want to do this but Uncle Adolf had oveturned this course of action, and rigthfully so. Gamble for Causcaus/Azeri oil fields was far more logical move and if taken instead of Moscow would ensure Wermacht was supplied with all of the oil the would ever need.

Instead of this, if they went for Moscow they would have had experienced same oil shortages they did irl, late 43 onwards, without the benefits of taken Kuban and Donbass, therefore ensuring more ground for Soviets to retake. Moscow would have been retaken while the Russians would be counterattacking and collapsing their belly in Ukraine.

>>512201436 (OP)
Russia has infinity disposable people to throw at a problem. Life is worth so little there, and the process is now so optimized, Ukraine's 14:1 doesn't even mean shit.

fritz todt already knew the nazis were fucked by early 1942 because everyone else had mobilised their war machines and were producing more of everything than the germans. it was only a matter of time.
of course todt died in a rather convenient plane crash right after meeting hitler and telling him this for the hundredth time.

>>512203826
Germans were running their factories in 2 shifts, 2. All the while every allied country had them in 3. It was not until Albert Speer came in he had implemented 3 shift work in the military industry but by then it was too late.

German efficiency my ass.

>>512201453
>that one romanian unit that pushed forward
respect. rest can rot in hell.

>>512201436 (OP)
ya, not start a 2-front war without the appropriate air power to turn Russia into a crater.

>>512204030
hitler was lucky that speer actually turned out to be a competent organiser. probably would have lost sooner if todt hadn't been 'replaced'.

>>512201453
Stupidest fucking war in history. The numbers are just insanity.

>>512201436 (OP)
Starting Operation Barbarossa before destroying London, the heart of financial jewery, was a fatal mistake

Hitler's generals wanted to retreat from Moscow in December 1941 but Hitler ordered them to stand and fight, and was proved right, as Russians didn't have strength to continue offensive.
A year later he thought history was repeating, but this time Russians were much stronger. He really should have allowed a breakout.

>>512203248
Taking Baku woundt have solved the industrial deficit they found them selves in .
The only way to win was a quick knockout.
Trying to grab resources to better yourselves for a long was is retarded when you know you will lose a long war

>>512202607
>Unironically both and ironically ultimately was Germany’s fault for trusting them
this is the answer to the OP's question

>>512201436 (OP)
They should have just invaded Britain before attacking the Soviet Union and everything would have ended well.

>>512204030
Hitler remembered all the hardships of previous war (and resulting revolution in 1918) and wanted to prevent same happening again.
He was very very reluctant to push his people too far.
Only in 1942 -- after Stalingrad disaster --- did Germany go to full mobilization of population.
This should have been done in 1939.

>>512204284
>Starting Operation Barbarossa before destroying London, the heart of financial jewery, was a fatal mistake
this too, Hitler was a tard who felt a brotherly kinship for the Anglo-Saxons based on old blood ties, a view that certainly was not reciprocated. London was the center of the empire and the empire was always going to be the biggest opponent. But instead he went east and captured the backwater of the Russian empire which he couldn't make productive and it sapped him.

>>512204630
Stalin put 160 divisions on their border, its not like they invaded for no reason

>>512204492
That was what world expected Germany to do.
But Hitler was a chaotic personality ("artistic temperament") who took pride in always being unpredictable
So instead of finishing war with Britain he starts new wars with Russia and USA.

>>512204578
>Only in 1942
1943 of course
This meant that new weapons and equipment only started appearing in large quantities in 1944.
Too late.

>>512201436 (OP)
The trouble was the insanely long supply lines and they weren't even properly mechanized. Hopeless without a political revolution in Russia happening.

Yes, they shouldn’t have fucked around

>>512201436 (OP)
Yep, had they retreated they would have had room to maneuver and could have surrounded forward groups of the ruskies.

>>512202607
German allies lacked modern tanks and other equipment and Germans didn't have enough of their own to share.
(IIRC, Hungarians tried to acquire StuGs but were refused, so they built their own ersatz StuGs, which obviously weren't as good)
German commanders should have realized that Russian blow would fall on these weaker allies.
Either equip them with modern gear, or keep them away from front line.
This has nothing to do with courage or cowardice, just equipment.

>>512204720
Actually it was very predictable. All his writings indicate how he viewed Britain as a brotherly fellow Germanic nation which he wanted to unite with against the "hordes of the East".
This caused him to throw away two chances at victory: First was at Dunkirk where it's assumed he held his tanks back many days to allow a British withdrawal as a gesture of goodwill (or he was just an incompetent retard).
More importantly was right after France was conquered he could have landed paratroopers in Britain and taken it over in weeks since it had zero defenses at this point, instead he told the army to rest and celebrate for weeks, allowing the window for an invasion to pass.
He genuinely did not want to conquer Britain and really believed he could form an alliance.

>>512204578
people love making excuses for germans, but they're just shit at war.
the scale of efficiencies speer was able to create nuts.
>uboat production from 42 weeks to 16
>lens factories from 23 to 7
>types of glass from 300 to 14
>firefighting equipment factories from 334 to 64
>machine tool factories from 900 to 300
>repurposed 112 useless carpet factories
>manufacturers were actually stockpiling materials requesting as much as 4x as was needed
>coal and steel usage made more efficient by 50% in 2 years
>types of aircraft reduced from 42 to 5
on and on
germans were dogshit, everyone else were just faggots because they refused to fuck them in the ass while they were preparing for war

>>512205391
Also they approved construction of this ridiculous tank while their enemies not only had more resources but also knew how to manage them better

>>512205571
Wrong image

>>512202613
What a low IQ post. Where there Romanians at the siege of Leningrad? How about the battle for Moscow? Isn't it funny how NOBODY brings those up, ever? Why doesn't anybody bring up the battles that the Germans lost on their own? Why is everybody silent?
How about the Hungarians also present at the battle of Stalingrad, why do they get a pass?
In reality Romanian were the only ones who understood what was going on as they repeatedly warned the German command of an incoming attack. It's always pseuds opining on stuff they have no understanding of.

>>512205617
No it isnt.

>>512202515
Neither. See the siege of Leningrad and battle for Moscow. Germans are capable of shitting the bed and losing battles on their own without having to pull up excuses and blame others for their stupidity.

Yes Hitler had an obsession with bigger and bigger tanks, even though shaped charges had already made heavy tanks obsolete.
You needed lots of small fast tanks like Sherman and T-34, not small numbers of slow monsters like Maus

Germans were shit at war and shit st building things. Russia built better tanks and weapons. USA built better manufacturing, UK had better planes. There is 0 the germans were better at. The generals were also much better on other side. The so called aryan race is fake and gay we are equal. Also germany were prepearing years before war and still they French just didnt want to fight properly, it is estinated they couldve won even with a german attack if french generals werent pussy.

>>512204456
No, it's not>>512205712

>>512205886
So you're saying this whole master race thing was a lie?

>>512205712
Hungarians didnt want to fight for Germany at all, we were occupupied by Germany and forced to fight, and we were promised to get back our old lands that are ours rightfully.

Tbh Germany should have won solely for Italy to have its Mare Nostrum again.

>>512202515
The Italians for invading Greece

>>512201436 (OP)
Yes, focus all efforts into a major offensive to their east. Literally redirect everything to blitzkrieg as far east as they could go. The Soviets would've never seen it coming

>>512205826
>siege of Leningrad
Finn's fault
>battle for Moscow
Russian's fault

>>512202387
that wouldn't be a win. Just less of a loss

>>512205965
Romania didn't want to fight either, mostly because our losses in WW1 were huge and they wanted to avoid a repeat of that. Germany threatened with invasion if we don't join the Axis.

>>512206064
Brraaap.

>>512206286
Yea and i think only germany were somewhat made for what other nations lacked equipments. Italy had poor mobilisation as well for example.

>>512201453
good job, shitalians!

>>512205712
The Romanians of Leningrad were the Finns.
Not sure who the Romanians of Moscow were, as I never studied that useless battle.

Moscow was never important. Only the fuel of the Caucasus was.
With that fuel, the Germans could have fully mechanized, kept the Luftwaffe in the air in numbers and still kept the coastal fleets in the fight.

email

check

>>512201436 (OP)
Already too late. The plan was to hit so hard in the first 3 months of Barbarossa that the USSR collapsed into revolution and made peace. Hitler was overconfident and didn't even fully mobilize until 1943 or so. Bad play!

>>512201436 (OP)
The Germans should have just surrounded Stalingrad and deployed, the forces they used to invade the city, to protect their flanks while they used artillery and bombber planes to destroy the bridges across the Volga River. The Romanians and Italians should have been deployed to attack the Caucuses due to their forces having better mountaineer training and less armor. Also Vichy France should have been remilitarized and a full Axis member. Their would be at least 500,000 more troops on the Eastern Front.

>>512204702
Hitler put 183 divisions on the same border. Are you saying there shouldn't have been any troops there on the Soviet side?

>>512204438
>The only way to win was a quick knockout.
Not possible against Russia, defeating Russia would require crossing the Urals, possibly even taking Vladivostok.
>>512205158
>More importantly was right after France was conquered he could have landed paratroopers in Britain
hoi4 isn't real life

>>512201436 (OP)
>>512201453
Why did they try to cross Volga so persistently?
Why not just go through caucasus/georgia?

Von der Leyen used the exact expression "steel porcupine" for what she wishes Ukraine to become against Russia (in case you don't read, that's how Germans called Stalingrad). Europe is a comedy and she's the head clown.

>>512207627
He planned for a 6 month war at most.
We know this because of the lack of winter gear - Germans were expecting to take this from the defeated Russians so didn't bring their own.
You can see Hitler's calculus:
It had taken around a month of fighting to defeat the French
Russia had 5x the population of France, so it would take around 5 months to defeat the Russians.
It would be over by Christmas

>>512206202
Oh fug :DDD

>>512201436 (OP)
Should have made 36 width infantry with hospital detachments to up the HP and then made super heavy tank destroyers to up the average armor of their tank units.
Could have just punched right through and then held the line while making and encirclement in the North to post on Reddit.

>>512208240
>defeating Russia would require crossing the Urals, possibly even taking Vladivostok
if the battle of moscow had resulted in german victory, stalin would have been captured or killed. that could easily have been the end right there

>>512201436 (OP)
At that point it was too late, they needed to start evacuating 4 days before the push, to manage to get back to defensible positions and consolidate, something that could only have happened if they went contrary to all their knowledge of Soviet strength.

>>512201436 (OP)
idk

what about the epstein list

>>512208942
>We know this because of the lack of winter gear - Germans were expecting to take this from the defeated Russians so didn't bring their own.
This was actually more of a logistical fuck up, they had the gear, they just didn't have the logistical set up to get it to their massive army in time.
>It would be over by Christmas
Yeah, whole "rotten door" analogy.

>>512201436 (OP)
God bless the Soviet people for destroying these niggerous things, each and every fallen liberator is with God now
Wish they got the chance to really destroy Nazionism though, shame it's still around

>>512202515

Romanians were under german command and the germans sub estimated the size of the soviet army. The romanians resisted as expected for one wave of attack but were not prepared for the second.

>>512210884
should just have added one heavy tank regiment into every division, that way the Russians wouldn't be able to pierce them at all

>>512211511
Why didn't Hitler just go mass mobilization Germany?

>>512201436 (OP)
https://youtu.be/U58IdBjMeS4?t=18

>>512204269
Neber ferget.

>>512201436 (OP)
Looks like romaniggers dropped the ball and let the wermarcht get encircled lol

>>512201453
>proto-NATO loses to Russia
every time. get used to it

>>512205826
Leningrad: Finland fails
Stalingrad: Romania+Italy fails

>>512201436 (OP)
Yeah, by becoming a time traveler and going back to the past to prevent that scenario

>>512201436 (OP)
Even if they had killed Hitler, Bormann, Morell, Canaris, Oster, Milch and all the other traitors and puppets in their ranks, by the end of Fall Blau Hitler's handlers had made sure the war could not be won anymore, and they were already preparing their charges to make the retreat as bloody, destructive and genocidal as possible

>>512201436 (OP)
Same way of winning as today, turn your gun around shoot the Gestapo officer bussing you to the front and work for the complete de-nazification of your country.

germany was never going to win against russia, so it doesn't matter the details of things that wouldn't have changed anyway.

>>512215972
20 milion dead russians later

>>512203248
Not logical at all only in hitler's fantasy world was it logical

>>512201436 (OP)
By not invading USSR and focusing on Britain. War was lost when barbarossa started.

>>512202055
Look at where hitlers sent his tank divisions. Those troops wouldnt have died if he hadn’t diverted to the oil fields in ukraine

>>512201436 (OP)
No. It was beyond fucked at this point.

Full scale multi armied operation to break out Stalingrad even if it costs the flanks along the Volga.

>>512202515
In the strictest sense, the Romanians.
However, Germany did not equip them or support them and when reports came in about Soviet armor build up in those poorly defended regions, they were fucking ignored.
It was Hitlers fault.

>>512216274
it was a preventive war
Hitler talks about it in his talk with Mannerheim
and everything he says is pretty much confirmed

>>512201436 (OP)
only if germans got the atom bomb first and nuked every major russian city. Then maybe they might squeeze an endsieg

>>512202523
Ok and you take Moscow and then what? You are still deep in enemy territory where it can beat you because you have poor logistics.

>>512216428
Hold.

>>512216454
And you lose and shoot your wife and yourself in the end.

>>512216505
keep advancing to the urals then and give guderian full control

>>512216454
That's what Napoleon did. It was his largest catastrophe ever.

>>512215700
OK, Hans.

Nevermind the stupidity of trying to take a piece of land with no strategic value.
Nevermind not being prepared for winter, a failing air force, lines stretched too thin.
The fact that you're on THEIR turf, that they are fighting for their very lives, that they've seen what you will do to them, that they know what their own leaders will do to them should they surrender or fail.
Nevermind your boss won't let anyone retreat to fight another day.
Blame your allies, who are not invested in the whole shit show as you are.

>>512203248
lol retard, how long would you think it would take for the germans to get any oil out of any ruined oilfield past maikop? 2-3 years?

luftwaffe should have just bombed baku as it did wisely with grozny, there was no need to push on baku, the german army wasnt entirely mechanised any way, so this was their best case scenario, also stop at the don bend and just continue on with the original plan of seizing the outlying areas before the causasus mountains, there tanks and infantry would be fighting an asymetrical warfare, dropping the idea that lines have to be defended, so there wont be any encirclements, after this, maybe if losses are high enough by 1943, the russians will have to think of something else, and meatwaves will be less and less, just like after rzhev, but they wont be out of fighting, also gernans have to win in africa as well somehow

>>512201436 (OP)
Caesar would have used his relieving force to go around his ass and started burning towns and threatening other targets to get the pressure off of his surrounded units rather than using the relieving force to directly break through.

But idk war was different then I guess.

I feel like Germany losing the war cost us everything. And by us, I mean white European people. I wish that Germany won and liberated people from world jewry.

>>512208847
>"steel porcupine"
It worked on the Western Front in WWI -- at least until "Michael" in 1918. If the Germans hadn't done that and had stayed on the defensive, they would probably have avoided defeat, simply by inflicting intolerable casualties on the attackers.
Hitler realized as early as December 1941 that Germany could no longer win the war, but he still hoped to avoid defeat in this way, by making the Russian advance as bloody as possible.
If might have worked without "lend lease". Without food and trucks and every other kind of economic assistance to USSR, the war in the East would probably have ended in stalemate.

>>512203826
this is true. the war was won by the soviets due to superior manufacturing capabilities. i dont remember the numbers off the top of my head but it took roughly 2-3.5x the amount of material to make german tanks than it did soviet tanks. SS soldiers also weren't properly equipped. some of them weren't well fed nor well trained and they were still subsisting on WW1 and older firearms while soviets near the end of the war the soviets had like 5 guns for every soldier

>>512201436 (OP)
Not by November. They had almost no armor to break through anywhere, and air support was nowhere near adequate.

>>512203248
There was no logical reason to take Moscow. It didn’t work for the poles, it didn’t work for napoleon and it wouldn’t have worked for hitler. The Soviets already considered the city a lost cause and moved as much vital infrastructure as they could.

I know people have this whimsy about operation Barbarossa and they love to ask these “what-ifs” but there was no way Germany could win. They didn’t have the resources to take on the USSR, full stop. People like to bring up lend-lease too, but the Soviets didn’t even start receiving most of that aid until AFTER Stalingrad, thepoint where Germany essentially lost the war. The reich was just not a sustainable government and everyone in the government knew it, they pushed these conquests to secure material and food, and the second they stopped gaining ground the entire system collapsed.

>>512201436 (OP)
Peace