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Thread 512204840

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Anonymous (ID: pl66a8bN) No.512204840 >>512205255 >>512205862 >>512206227 >>512206829 >>512206993 >>512210515 >>512210770 >>512211157 >>512211182 >>512212082 >>512212228 >>512212438 >>512212571 >>512212960 >>512213010 >>512213292 >>512214387
Criticisms and what you think about liberalism and anarcho-capitalism. Does it work?
Anonymous (ID: MoVBXjna) United States No.512205255 >>512205611 >>512206369 >>512206661
>>512204840 (OP)
anarcho-capitalism will never work and doesn't even make sense. Imagine being ruled over by a corporation. The corpos are trying to do that now and we hate them; imagine if they had full power.
Liberalism is based and NatSocpilled
Anonymous (ID: wqs6gDbJ) United States No.512205611 >>512206132
>>512205255
What you have to understand about ancaps is they have their terminology all wrong. They learned economic jargon from Ayn Rand so they think “capitalism” refers to pastoral colonial-era American villages where butchers and cobblers trade with one another, and modern society is “socialist” because the government is controlled by corporate interests.

Is this retarded and wrong? Yes it is. Would “individualist anarchists” or “market anarchists” be better terms to use? Yes they would. Will you ever change their minds about this? Not likely. If you engage with ancaps in their own jargon base, you’ll find they’re advocating for basically exactly what Benjamin Tucker was advocating for while declaring himself a revolutionary socialist.
Anonymous (ID: 7EFMGrtf) Moldova No.512205862 >>512206283
>>512204840 (OP)
>Criticisms and what you think about liberalism and anarcho-capitalism. Does it work?
They are meaningless. An organic community can force its own rules of conduct on the individual without violating his freedom, by the principle of free association: if you don't like the rules, go to a different club..

Libertarianism and anarcho-capitalism are only possible in an inorganic society that forces the whims of the rich on the individual through economic pressure and makes it impossible for people to organize an opposition.
Anonymous (ID: MoVBXjna) United States No.512206132 >>512206609 >>512208839
>>512205611
If it is a form of libertarian socialism that they want, then I can totally get behind it. I think that they should just ditch that ancap lingo all together because it won't help them get any supporters. I'm surprised that they haven't done that a long time ago because I doubt that any of them never had a discussion about how stupid that name is
Anonymous (ID: hBsK5Imb) United States No.512206227
>>512204840 (OP)
Anarcho-capitalist is just a short path to dictatorship and perpetual conflict. In a true capitalist society clean water is worth more than gold.
Anonymous (ID: wqs6gDbJ) United States No.512206283 >>512206393
>>512205862
This is exactly as disingenuous as the argument that goes the other way
>if you don't have the state, how will you FORCE people to be in communes and share everything?!

There's this implicit assumption from both sides that the way they personally would prefer to organize is the way everyone would prefer to organize and that the only way any other situation could possibly arise would be violent coercion. Which is a pretty stupid and self-centered way of thinking.

And, just like ancappies deserve to be called out for wanting to use freedom to submit themselves to the voluntary tyranny of hierarchy in their workplace or wherever else, ancommies deserve to be called out for wanting to use freedom to submit themselves to a community that moral-polices their every behavior without protections for individual self expression.

Both sides should be asking themselves, and each other, the same question:
>If we have freedom, how can we organize ourselves to best protect that freedom? What core principles should guide our systems of organization to avoid generating coercion?

It's not a question that gets asked enough.
Anonymous (ID: lgUTcado) Estonia No.512206369 >>512212620
>>512205255
>imagine if they had full power
If that happens, you just kill them. If they don't have their state buttbuddies to back them up with their armies and bomber planes, you'll win.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_Wars
Anonymous (ID: 7EFMGrtf) Moldova No.512206393 >>512206804
>>512206283
An organic community can force its own rules of conduct on the individual without violating his freedom, by the principle of free association: if you don't like the rules, go to a different club.

Do you acknowledge this or not?
Anonymous (ID: wqs6gDbJ) United States No.512206609
>>512206132
It's just a consequence of how they came into the movement. For them, "capitalism" means free trade and "socialism" means state control. That's due to the way America propagandized against the Soviet Union. I agree it's dumb and backwards but America has really bizarre political terminolgy as a result. For example, America is the only country where "conservatism" or "reactionary" thinking can be more radical than liberal thinking in some regards, because where most countries started with absolute monarchies and over time dissolved their power into democratic institutions, America started as a bunch of radical separatists who over time became a global empire. So looking back on America's "traditional past" is looking back on a time when it tarred and feathered crown loyalists, not a time when it waged holy war on infidels.

It's just weird. You can either play history teacher and vocabulary police all day, or you can adjust your word choice to your target audience and connect with them on the level of ideas. If you do, you realize that most of them are very sincere anarchists and they just don't talk about it the same way you do.
Anonymous (ID: kCKl2aN/) United States No.512206661 >>512206914
>>512205255
Corporations are a recent invention and are entirely propped up by states. The idea that the absence of government would lead to corporations, let alone powerful corporations is refuted by history.
Anonymous (ID: wqs6gDbJ) United States No.512206804 >>512207151
>>512206393
Of course I do. As a statement of basic fact, it is true. It's also true that by the principle of free association, a man can submit to the arbitrary whims of a tyrant who barks orders at him all day in exchange for money. He can choose to do that, since he can always choose to leave.

In both cases, though you'd have to say, "it would be WEIRD if that's how you chose to use your freedom". Like you'd fight for your freedom, to be liberated from oppressors, exploiters, and tyrants, and then go "cool, okay, now let's all get together and ostracize anyone who cuts their hair a way we don't like and refuse to share food with people who don't do a minimum of 12 daily hours of backbreaking labor"

I'm not saying you can't do that. Free people can do what they like. But why is that your vision of the future? Why is that what you're fighting to realize? Shouldn't you instead be asking "hey, what can we do to help ensure that this ISN'T the future that comes to pass?"
Anonymous (ID: Eb3m5ixR) Poland No.512206829 >>512207132
>>512204840 (OP)
anarcho-anything doesn't work
a power hierarchy will aways appear
if not from anything else, then from brute force (hey, it's anarchy so anything goes)
Anonymous (ID: lgUTcado) Estonia No.512206914 >>512207163
>>512206661
I find it extremely ironic that the "horrors" of libertarianism/ancap these idiots are always describing (muh corpos) exist right now, with state regulations out the ass.
Anonymous (ID: R0EUaP+x) No.512206993
>>512204840 (OP)
The state should intervene when economic activities threaten the race in some way. Aka National Socialism.
Anonymous (ID: wqs6gDbJ) United States No.512207132 >>512207346
>>512206829
>anarchy doesn't work because if there's anarchy, someone will just come make it not anarchy
This is a stupid statement, you could make that statement about any political organization. Dictatorship won't work because if there's a dictator, someone will just kill him and then there won't be a dictator anymore. See how I did that? How I just handwaved the fact of overthrowing an established social order and widely accepted moral and political belief system by saying "well someone will just not do that"?

Yeah, that's retarded.
Anonymous (ID: S1LDHnQW) United States No.512207141
Good idea but we need a form of government. Take the libertarian monarchist pill.
Anonymous (ID: 7EFMGrtf) Moldova No.512207151 >>512207265 >>512207350
>>512206804
>Of course I do. As a statement of basic fact, it is true
Ok. Now, what's the point of a community without rules? I don't want to hang out with vile degenerates. I want to hang out with like-minded people.
Anonymous (ID: kCKl2aN/) United States No.512207163 >>512207714
>>512206914
Corporations *are* government. They exist exclusively as a consequence of government edicts. They are protected from being instantly looted and picked to the bone by both their own employees and the general public exclusively by government power. This is true of the first corporation, the East India company, to your everyday publicly traded corps today.
Anonymous (ID: wqs6gDbJ) United States No.512207265 >>512207579
>>512207151
>Now, what's the point of a community without rules?
Well, the "point" of a community is that humans are natural collaborators and we achieve more working together than we do working apart.

>I don't want to hang out with vile degenerates
That's fine. Don't.
Anonymous (ID: Eb3m5ixR) Poland No.512207346 >>512207461
>>512207132
> Dictatorship won't work because if there's a dictator, someone will just kill him and then there won't be a dictator anymore.
you're retarded
a dictatorship is a form of government
a dictator can be abolished and replaced with another form of government
but he can't be abolished with anarchy
because anarchy only exists as a concept
in reality, a hierarchy always forms
there's always a power structure
show me one place/time in history where anarchy worked
Anonymous (ID: lgUTcado) Estonia No.512207350 >>512207579
>>512207151
>I don't want to hang out with vile degenerates. I want to hang out with like-minded people.
Cool. Don't.
The degenerates can hang out in their enclave and get shot if they start seeping out and acting out.
Anonymous (ID: kCKl2aN/) United States No.512207461 >>512207571
>>512207346
>show me one place/time in history where anarchy worked
Show me one place and time government worked. Let me guess, your example will be one of the smallest government possible.
Anonymous (ID: Eb3m5ixR) Poland No.512207571 >>512207707 >>512207965
>>512207461
>Show me one place and time government worked.
it's working right now and you and me are under forms of government
>inb4 but it's not working PERFECTLY and I'm not haaapppy
Anonymous (ID: 7EFMGrtf) Moldova No.512207579 >>512207707 >>512207978
>>512207265
>Cool. Don't.
>>512207350
>That's fine
Indeed. Now, reflect on the fact that almost everyone has some ideas about how people should behave and what responsibilities they have towards society.
Anonymous (ID: lgUTcado) Estonia No.512207707 >>512207831 >>512207841
>>512207571
>it's working right now
No, it's not. The government experiment has been tried countless time for millennia and every single time it's shit the bed sooner or later.

>>512207579
This is why you can hang out with whomever you want and exclude the rest from your community.
Can't do that with a centralized government where you're forced to coexist with everyone.
Anonymous (ID: wqs6gDbJ) United States No.512207714 >>512208077
>>512207163
I don't like the defense-by-lawlessness approach to anarchism. I don't like the idea that anarchism implies "if people don't like you, they'll just steal your shit and kill you, because the state won't protect you". I think you can, and should, make a case that the modern expression of the corporation relies on the state in more ways than just "it protects them from people who would do them harm".

For example, modern corporations heavily rely on
>regulation and regulatory capture to create barriers to entry from small or independent providers of the same goods and services
>intellectual property law to provide artificial monopolies
>subsidization of public infrastructure which corporations profit from and produce costs on far more than the people who subsidize it (communications infrastructure, transport infrastructure, etc)

Because let's be real, if anarchism is ever realized as an actual social model, it will have to be based on a moral precept that says that using force against people is not okay, even if you don't like those people. It will have to be based on principles like federation and secession, where bad actors are eliminated from consideration because people stop dealing with them, not because people ransack their homes and burn their shit flat and chase them out of town with spears. If tribal warfare is your actual sales pitch, don't wave the black flag.
Anonymous (ID: Eb3m5ixR) Poland No.512207831 >>512207974
>>512207707
>it's shit the bed sooner or later.
so you're asking for government that is both perfect AND eternal
you really should be 18 to post here
Anonymous (ID: 7EFMGrtf) Moldova No.512207841
>>512207707
>This is why you can hang out with whomever you want and exclude the rest from your community.
That's what people had been doing for hundreds of thousands of years and there had never been an ancap/libertarian utopia that welcomed greedy degenerates.
Anonymous (ID: kCKl2aN/) United States No.512207965 >>512208496
>>512207571
Anon, literally every western government is replacing its own population with shitskins as fast as possible, and every other countries is fleeing for western countries because theirs have already collapsed. Do you really think the current government of Poland has it figured out and every other one in Europe and North America is cluesless?
Anonymous (ID: lgUTcado) Estonia No.512207974 >>512208780
>>512207831
>so you're asking for government that is both perfect AND eternal
No, that's just the wrong conclusion your retarded monkey brain came to.
Anonymous (ID: wqs6gDbJ) United States No.512207978 >>512208165
>>512207579
>Now, reflect on the fact that almost everyone has some ideas about how people should behave and what responsibilities they have towards society.
Reflect on the fact that all of those ideas are different, and that most people would rather work together with people they don't agree with about everything than starve alone in a mud hut in the wilderness.

I'm not suggesting that you would be unable, or ill-advised, to try to surround yourself with people who share your values, and to make those people your closest and most trusted connections and collaborators in life. I think it's a good thing. I also think that if anarchism does ever succeed as a political model, it will have to be realized by cooperation among groups that don't all share the same values (except the values of noncoercion and free association). If there is ever an anarchist world, it will necessarily be one where people are able to cooperate with people they don't always find tasteful, because the world doesn't have enough people who think EXACTLY like you to sustain a society.
Anonymous (ID: kCKl2aN/) United States No.512208077 >>512208291
>>512207714
People will call this a cope but anarchy doesn't mean no rules or right-makes-right, it means "no rulers". Laws based on natural law can work without rulers or hierarchy.
Anonymous (ID: 7EFMGrtf) Moldova No.512208165 >>512208827
>>512207978
>Reflect on the fact that all of those ideas are different
Yes.

>most people would rather work together
No. Most people would rather take part in a community that shares their values and sensibilities about standards of behavior and social responsibility.
Anonymous (ID: wqs6gDbJ) United States No.512208291 >>512208423
>>512208077
>Laws based on natural law can work without rulers or hierarchy.
I'll go one step further and say that they have to. Anarchism is fundamentally a "natural law" or moral philosophy. If your stated aim is "no rulers"
The biggest gang is a ruler
The armed robber is a ruler
These people are using violent force to coerce you. The whole point of the anarchist argument is
>the state is no different from any other armed gang pushing you around
That IMPLIES that you have a fundamental objection to armed gangs pushing people around.
Anonymous (ID: kCKl2aN/) United States No.512208423
>>512208291
>I'll go one step further and say that they have to.
Definitely. Gangs/robbers etc. are fundamentally violators of natural law.
Anonymous (ID: Eb3m5ixR) Poland No.512208496 >>512208830 >>512208866
>>512207965
>Anon, literally every western government is replacing its own population with shitskins as fast as possible,
well you (and us) gave women rights, so what do you expect?
Anonymous (ID: Eb3m5ixR) Poland No.512208780
>>512207974
>the wrong conclusion
every form of government wears itself out after decades or centuries
that doesn't mean anarchy can work
because it can't
anarchy is just a thought experiment
something like
>what if we abolished gravity
yeah okay, let's fantasize for a while then come back down to Earth lol
Anonymous (ID: wqs6gDbJ) United States No.512208827 >>512209017
>>512208165
>Most people would rather take part in a community that shares their values and sensibilities about standards of behavior and social responsibility
Community, yes. Absolutely. But rarely do you find communities that completely isolate themselves, or that are happy to do so.

You can look at actual anarchist experiments and see what happens, anon. Look at Mahkno's free territory; it was communes and small democratic communities, but they engaged in commercial trade with one another. They did not all put up walls around themselves and say "no, we are a cloud forest, none shall enter, we will provide everything we need right here". They collaborated, but in a lower-trust way than they did with their immediate neighbors.

A real free society is going to have varying levels of trust and interpersonal connection, and it will accordingly have gradients of interaction. This is how humans interact. You are a communist with your closest connections and you engage in mutual exchange with strangers. What distinguishes people on the individualist-collectivist spectrum of anarchism is basically just
>how many people do I consider my closest connections?
My immediate family? My close friends? My neighbors? Other people in my community I've never met? Other people in my religion/race/group I identify with?

The only thing that's universally true is that the answer is never "nobody at all" and the answer is never "everyone on the planet". Where we draw the line is up to us as individuals and it will also change with time.
Anonymous (ID: lgUTcado) Estonia No.512208830 >>512208992
>>512208496
>Show me one place and time government worked.
>it's working right now

>well you (and us) gave women rights, so what do you expect?
Anonymous (ID: fQnWW+SC) United States No.512208839
>>512206132
ancaps were always just europeans relapsing into hardline liberalism, the US never actually completely got rid of that faction. Although they took a heavy hit in the civil war
Anonymous (ID: kCKl2aN/) United States No.512208866 >>512208920
>>512208496
>well you (and us) gave women rights, so what do you expect?
Non sequitur. Women's rights? You want to clap back but you can't so you're changing the subject. Government is a disaster and neither you nor I are living in a functional one.
Anonymous (ID: Eb3m5ixR) Poland No.512208920 >>512209143
>>512208866
>Government is a disaster
and anarchy cannot exist
WAT NOU?
Anonymous (ID: Eb3m5ixR) Poland No.512208992
>>512208830
the concept of passage of time eludes the Eesti
must be something to do with hallucinogenic potatoes
Anonymous (ID: 7EFMGrtf) Moldova No.512209017 >>512210064
>>512208827
>rarely do you find communities that completely isolate themselves
This has no bearing on the fact that no organic community ever welcomed greedy degenerates. They all had standards of behavior, they all placed social responsibilities on their members, and they all had severe consequences for those who thought they were le heckin' special individuals who have some holy, God-given right to violate community norms.
Anonymous (ID: kCKl2aN/) United States No.512209143 >>512209300 >>512210729
>>512208920
>and anarchy cannot exist
You're just repeating a claim. Provide some evidence or admit you're wrong. I've asserted that 100% of governments have been failures and provided evidence (all of history). Show me how 100% of people living their lives without being lorded over and violently threatened by someone hasn't worked. Because that *is* your claim. I'll make it even simpler for you:
Give me ONE an example of anything in your life where you need someone to command you what to do.
Anonymous (ID: Eb3m5ixR) Poland No.512209300 >>512209369 >>512209457
>>512209143
>. Provide some evidence or admit you're wrong
I asked you for one historical precedent where anarchy worked
you can't provide one, so I rest my case
I'm off to mow my lawn now
thanks to the existence of government, the lawn is mine AND I'm almost certain I won't be attacked by a bunch of anarchy warlords to steal my lawn mower
enjoy your discussion and grow up someday
Anonymous (ID: kCKl2aN/) United States No.512209369
>>512209300
>thanks to the existence of government, the lawn is mine AND I'm almost certain I won't be attacked by a bunch of anarchy warlords to steal my lawn mower
Kek tell that to half your neighbors who are literally fighting off Somali gangs with machetes.
Anonymous (ID: lgUTcado) Estonia No.512209457 >>512209823
>>512209300
The burden of proof is on you to show that governments are good and absolutely must exist, since you and your kind are forcing it on everyone.
Anonymous (ID: 7EFMGrtf) Moldova No.512209823 >>512210053 >>512210418 >>512210446
>>512209457
>proof ... that governments ... absolutely must exist
Once tribes start unifying into a civilization, they grow significantly larger than Dunbar's number for humans. At that point, some degree of abstraction becomes necessary to keep it all together, so form institutions. Institutions are effectively governments. These larger societies end up slaughtering everyone else.
Anonymous (ID: kCKl2aN/) United States No.512210053 >>512210359
>>512209823
>Institutions are effectively governments
This is absolutely untrue. This is why government is called "government" and the local bakery isn't.
Anonymous (ID: wqs6gDbJ) United States No.512210064 >>512210589
>>512209017
This is true as far as it goes but I think using words like "degenerates" carries an implication that any and all standards of behavior = the standards of behavior you yourself currently believe in. Which is certainly not the case. All communities have values and ostracize those who don't share those values, but very often they have nothing at all to do with values you or I would recognize.

I mean at a fundamental level the basic anarchist proposition is
>noncoercion is our most fundamental value
>if you violate that value, we will fuck you up royally

The entire premise of the anarchist philosophy is based on the idea that there has to be some underlying moral precept that governs what is right and what is wrong, and that the community at large will not tolerate those who disobey this basic precept.

I don't think you can necessarily make the leap from that statement of obvious fact to
>in the absence of the state everything will be white picket fences with No Niggers No Fags signs above the entrances
there will be some of that, of course. And I'm not gonna burn your house down for only wanting to be surrounded by White Christians or anything. But I think you're wrong to assume that all free associations of people will necessarily devolve into puritanical self-policing.
Anonymous (ID: 7EFMGrtf) Moldova No.512210359 >>512210571
>>512210053
>the local bakery is an institution
>also i can't into context
One of those days I'll just add your flag to the filter and be done with it.
Anonymous (ID: wqs6gDbJ) United States No.512210418 >>512210679
>>512209823
All proto-states in history have been based on conquest and slavery. The idea that "people will organize enough that they just do everything better and then that group will be the winner because they're the best" is nonsense and never pans out in practice.

Large, hierarchically organized groups of loyal servants do one, and only one, thing very well. That is enslave weaker neighbors via conquest and use them to extract wealth.

The entire premise of the state is
>join me, take this spear, and together we will eat for free by tithing those poor goat fuckers to the south
And in the absence of social legitimization it only works if one group of people can have demonstrably superior killing power to another group, i.e. it doesn't work since John Moses Browning made all men equal.
Anonymous (ID: lgUTcado) Estonia No.512210446 >>512210761
>>512209823
>some degree of abstraction becomes necessary to keep it all together
Why would you need to install any "institutions"?
Anonymous (ID: /PBa9+ct) United States No.512210515
>>512204840 (OP)
All three including conservatism are eternally stuck in pros and cons.
Anonymous (ID: kCKl2aN/) United States No.512210571 >>512210831
>>512210359
Not an argument. You're asserting that institutions are effectively governments. These are literally your words. This is obvious nonsense; the overwhelming majority of institutions are not governments. I'll ask you the same question I asked the Pole who ragequit. In what area of your (I mean you personally) life do you need a ruler to command you? Of course the answer you'll give, the answer everyone gives, is that you don't need one and that you know how to conduct yourself. Government is always rooted in the pathological, seething need to control others.
Anonymous (ID: 7EFMGrtf) Moldova No.512210589 >>512211091
>>512210064
>All communities have values and ostracize those who don't share those values
Glad we have that settled.

>noncoercion is our most fundamental value
This is not an anarchist value. Some anarchists (the ones who are lying and/or stupid) adopt this value but it's not inherently an anarchist value. The inherent anarchist value is opposition to hierarchies.
Anonymous (ID: 7EFMGrtf) Moldova No.512210679 >>512210824
>>512210418
>All proto-states in history have been based on conquest and slavery.
100%. That's exactly what I said.
Anonymous (ID: wqs6gDbJ) United States No.512210729 >>512211052
>>512209143
>Give me ONE an example of anything in your life where you need someone to command you what to do.
I understand the point you're making but it's worth noting that smart people very often deliberately create systems of accountability for themselves because they know they can't be trusted to do what they want when the temptation exists to do what is easy.

Or, put another way,
>my example is when I start a diet and I need to be told not to order dessert

As to the practical success of anarchism, it comes down to figuring out a way for a decentralized network of free people to defend themselves against an organized military. I don't believe that's an insurmountable problem but it's certainly a hard one.
Anonymous (ID: 7EFMGrtf) Moldova No.512210761 >>512210952
>>512210446
>Why would you need to install any "institutions"?
Because at that point you are trying to maintain a society larger than what humanity's basic social instincts can handle.
Anonymous (ID: 9mDnnPvc) United States No.512210770
>>512204840 (OP)
I feel people have lost imagination for the concept of capitalism, even during the height of the cold war it was more about us God-fearing christians against the godless commies
but now people see lowering buying power, the exporting of jobs and everyone, left and right, are disillusioned with it all
Anonymous (ID: wqs6gDbJ) United States No.512210824 >>512210883
>>512210679
Then your argument basically boils down to
>I agree with you that the state is evil, stupid, and a drain on humankind, but they have the guns and I just don't see a way around that so I give up

That's not an argument against anarchism, it's just defeatism. You're not saying anarchism is an invalid or stupid philosophy, you're saying you don't currently see a way to actualize it in practice so fuck it, what's the point.
Anonymous (ID: 7EFMGrtf) Moldova No.512210831
>>512210571
>You're asserting that institutions are effectively governments
In the context of that post, "institutions" refers to the social institutions needed to keep a larger-scale society together. They are sources of authority.
Anonymous (ID: I00HYFq5) United Kingdom No.512210851 >>512210962
the obviously best system is capitalism with some basic laws protecting property rights. why reinvent the wheel.
Anonymous (ID: 7EFMGrtf) Moldova No.512210883
>>512210824
>That's not an argument against anarchism
I wasn't making an argument against anarchism. I explained the causality behind states necessarily existing.
Anonymous (ID: lgUTcado) Estonia No.512210952 >>512211064
>>512210761
Natural law is simple enough not to require any bullshit institutions.
Anonymous (ID: 7EFMGrtf) Moldova No.512210962 >>512211111 >>512211724
>>512210851
The obvious worst system that ever existed is capitalism.
Anonymous (ID: kCKl2aN/) United States No.512211052
>>512210729
The example of the diet isn't bad but you're overlooking a key point: the diet, and the reminders (even from others) not to eat dessert are something you're ultimately imposing on yourself, and you can withdraw that injunction at any time. It isn't as though the waiter is popping out of the floorboards and stealing your dessert away. He isn't breaking into your house to raid the ice cream from your freezer. And he certainly isn't putting a gun to your head and telling you you can't eat dessert anymore, no matter what you decide.

Organization is possible as long as entrance and exit (even after some agreed upon term) is voluntary. A great example can be found in Molyneux's (I know he's memed to death but bear with me this is a great video) about how pirates organized themselves:
https://odysee.com/@freedomain:b/THE_TRUTH_ABOUT_PIRATES_Audio:4

Also a good example as to people organizing themselves against militaries, incidentally.
Anonymous (ID: 7EFMGrtf) Moldova No.512211064 >>512211175
>>512210952
>Natural law is simple enough not to require any bullshit institutions
Natural Law was invented by statists.
Anonymous (ID: wqs6gDbJ) United States No.512211091 >>512211300
>>512210589
>[noncoercion] is not an anarchist value. The inherent anarchist value is opposition to hierarchies.
You're splitting hairs. Opposition to coercion is a subset of opposition to hierarchy, since the whole point of objecting to people telling you what to do is that they can create a situation where you don't have a choice but to listen. Hierarchy without coercion is a meaningless concept. There can be no hierarchy without coercion. And all forms of coercion immediately produce hierarchy as a matter of course.

Can we be more thoroughgoing and say that we proactively want to avoid hierarchical organization wherever it exists, in preference of mutuality, consensus, and bottom-up federation? Of course. But refer to Bakunin on the authority of the bootmaker; if a man chooses to obey the instructions of another man, that is not hierarchical. Using force to prevent this arrangement is hierarchical.

Ergo it's really coercive power that anarchism necessarily objects to.
Anonymous (ID: /PBa9+ct) United States No.512211111 >>512211455
>>512210962
You forgot dictatorship.
Anonymous (ID: /YElEs4U) Mexico No.512211157 >>512211423
>>512204840 (OP)
Anarchy is a transitory system, people's nature is to organize, if your remove all structures of power the ensuing chaos will only be temporary, in time people will begin to create new hierarchies, those npwho are naturally gifted, the smarter, the stronger, the charismatic and the beautiful will create spheres of influence, just like it happened when Rome fell and the people made fiefs.
Thus, any kind of anarchistic ideology is a larp, altough ancapitalism isn't as retarded as ancommunism, ancaps do understand that basic human instinct drives us towards capitalism, while ancoms legit think they can maintain a state of mandated mediocrity without a system of coercion.
Anonymous (ID: kCKl2aN/) United States No.512211175 >>512211343
>>512211064
>Natural Law was invented by statists.
How is that? It seems to be very much the opposite; statists are always claiming that they are the source of law (often through some magical pretext like divine right, noble blood, etc.)
Anonymous (ID: WgJAhqcb) Japan No.512211182 >>512211228
>>512204840 (OP)
jews fear libertarianism
jews prefer oligarchy and big government (communism)
Anonymous (ID: kCKl2aN/) United States No.512211228 >>512211602
>>512211182
lol this is a great point. They'll impose more government, not less.
Anonymous (ID: 7EFMGrtf) Moldova No.512211300 >>512211607
>>512211091
>Opposition to coercion is a subset of opposition to hierarchy
Anarchism does not oppose "coercion". It opposes hierarchies. "Coercion" in the social/political sense is a meaningless concept outside of hierarchical structures.
Anonymous (ID: 7EFMGrtf) Moldova No.512211343 >>512211541
>>512211175
>How is that?
In the most basic, literal sense and non-controversial sense. Look up the history of this concept.
Anonymous (ID: wqs6gDbJ) United States No.512211423 >>512211590
>>512211157
>ancoms legit think they can maintain a state of mandated mediocrity without a system of coercion
On the subject of natural communism, I refer you to the sage David Graeber, and a story he likes to tell

>two construction workers are at a job site
>the first one says "pass me the hammer?"
>the second one says "maybe I will and maybe I won't. What's in it for me?"

People share, anon. It's human nature. They also exchange. And yes, they also follow leaders. There will always be some mix of all of these things in a society. Ancoms would like to see more sharing and less exchanging. That's a matter of preference, it doesn't imply "the voluntary worker's councils will create voluntary bread lines" or whatever bullshit story you have in your head.
Anonymous (ID: 7EFMGrtf) Moldova No.512211455
>>512211111
Capitalism is just a thinly-veiled dictatorship.
Anonymous (ID: kCKl2aN/) United States No.512211541 >>512211712
>>512211343
I stand by my interpretation. Natural law has never been a tool of statists. Statists are legal positivists, though certainly they'll often try to falsely claim that their rulership is the "natural order" (again usually by divine right, descent from the gods, superior genetics, etc.). Half the time this is even circular logic (if I didn't have the gods' favor how could I be in charge?)
Anonymous (ID: kCKl2aN/) United States No.512211590
>>512211423
Based Graeber knower.
Anonymous (ID: WgJAhqcb) Japan No.512211602 >>512211703
>>512211228
i think generally, short small people prefer authoritarianism while big tall people prefer freedom
Anonymous (ID: wqs6gDbJ) United States No.512211607 >>512211799
>>512211300
Coercion produces hierarchical structures. If I put a gun in your face and say "build me a fence" I have created a hierarchy. It is a hierarchy where I am at the top and you are at the bottom. It emerges automatically.

If instead, I walk up to you with no capacity to threaten you or force you to do anything, and I say "build me a fence", and you say "yeah, okay" and you do it, that is not a hierarchy.

Why? In both cases, I said a thing, you did a thing. Yet obviously in one case, I am in charge and you are subservient to me, where in the other case we are fundamentally equals. What separates these two situations?

Coercive violence, or the threat of coercive violence. Honestly the focus on coercion as a foundational idea is one of the few things I think the individualist anarchists and/or "ancaps" get more right than the classic collectivist thinkers do.
Anonymous (ID: kCKl2aN/) United States No.512211703
>>512211602
I don't know if you're joking (I'm not mocking you; it's a perfectly valid hypothesis), but I'd refer you to the San people as a counterexample https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_people
Anonymous (ID: 7EFMGrtf) Moldova No.512211712 >>512211886
>>512211541
>i stand by my delusion
>i refuse to find out what "Natural Law" means and where this philosophy comes from
Great way to exclude yourself from the discussion.
Anonymous (ID: I00HYFq5) United Kingdom No.512211724
>>512210962
no.
Anonymous (ID: 7EFMGrtf) Moldova No.512211799 >>512211942
>>512211607
>Coercion produces hierarchical structures.
That doesn't contradict what I just told you.
Anonymous (ID: kCKl2aN/) United States No.512211886
>>512211712
I've provided evidence for my position (they're abstract but concrete ones are obvious, e.g. divine right claimed by the British Crown, divine descent claimed by the Japanese emperor, the mandate of heaven by the Chinese emperors)

You provide proof for yours. The burden of proof is on you. It's your claim; don't ask me to do the research for you.
Anonymous (ID: wqs6gDbJ) United States No.512211942 >>512212125
>>512211799
If coercion automatically produces hierarchical structures, and nominally "hierarchical" structures can be interpreted as non-hierarchical (again, see authority of the bootmaker), then the focus on hierarchy as a concept is a mislead. It's coercion that really matters, and the focus on rigid hierarchy is just a shorthand for the most obvious and onerous kind of result of long-term systematic coercion.
Anonymous (ID: RCp/oSMZ) United States No.512212082 >>512212150
>>512204840 (OP)
Libertarianism is dumb because without regulations, violence is required because there are no other ways to handle the "not my problem" types. Libertarianism often imagines societies broken up into isolated plots of land that are bought and owned and then sustained and kept through an honor system. Issues like dumbing, even on your own property, become issues for your neighbors and you have no real standards or regulations to help you with these inevitable conflicts, you just need to have an appreciation of retard violence that can spring up over any little thing and act accordingly.

When you don't have democratic representation in a constitutional republic and policy agreed upon and placed, enforced by this system and their police and courts, you need to have psychopaths murdering over small assumed, imagined, or real infractions to sustain policy which only exists as "common sense".
Anonymous (ID: 7EFMGrtf) Moldova No.512212125 >>512212752
>>512211942
You can say that I'm establishing an ad hoc, transient hierarchy of intellectual authority ITT by dunking on you repeatedly, but that's not what anarchism is about.
Anonymous (ID: kCKl2aN/) United States No.512212150 >>512212391
>>512212082
>without regulations, violence is required
Anon governments exclusively enforce regulations through violence. You're post should read, "If you want regulations, violence is required"
Anonymous (ID: x4+Ni8Oi) No.512212228
>>512204840 (OP)
Yes it works, but only if you are a fucking strong anti-christcuck like Devon Stack. He posted the epic pic and banned a ton of christcucks from his channel. Here is one of them seething after he banned them
https://x.com/KnutKnutse55124/status/1935020130913648898
Anonymous (ID: RCp/oSMZ) United States No.512212391 >>512212667
>>512212150
You're right, I should have worded it better. The rest of the post goes on about violence between neighbors over seemingly small infractions. You need to make a problem for the "not my problem" crowd or they are correct. What they do to make problems for you, they can choose not to validate your grievance, so you just need to kill them.
Anonymous (ID: 5gf6xgdC) Brazil No.512212438
>>512204840 (OP)
Are you listening? Good.
Anonymous (ID: G2hb5RGT) Hungary No.512212571 >>512213012
>>512204840 (OP)
Who would regulate the worth of money?
And what would stop people from just printing their own money?
Anonymous (ID: Pp76lHri) United States No.512212620
>>512206369
Interesting read. I always thought mother jones was gay because of that website but it turns out she was based?
Anonymous (ID: kCKl2aN/) United States No.512212667 >>512213093
>>512212391
I think some people overlook that conflict against crazy groups who don't respect natural law (Muslims for example, who are constantly trying to conquer everyone) is ok, and that anarchy doesn't claim this won't occur. What it does claim is that those who practice it will not be ruled over by despots.
Anonymous (ID: wqs6gDbJ) United States No.512212752 >>512212953
>>512212125
>You can say that I'm establishing an ad hoc, transient hierarchy of intellectual authority ITT by dunking on you repeatedly, but that's not what anarchism is about.
Even you would not suggest that our conversation is fundamentally hierarchical in nature though. Jokes to the side. Obviously what we're doing is a free association of individuals. Which is my whole point. The whole premise of free association is a rejection of coercion. Free association IMPLIES that 'voluntary hierarchy' must necessarily be possible.

Obviously if you are a committed anarchist, you're not especially interested in using your freedom to associate to voluntarily put yourself in the situation that you objected to. It doesn't make a lot of sense to say "this state of affairs is so onerous I'm about to do a violent insurrection; that way I can bring it back again, exactly as it was, but VOLUNTARY".

But anarchists are on the fringe. Most people probably don't value freedom as much as an anarchist does. They don't hate it, but it doesn't register as being as important to them as other things. We have to share the world with people like that. A free society has to be able to support people who aren't hard-line about their freedoms. People who think consensus decisionmaking takes for fucking EVER and just want to hang out with friends and eat good food and watch TV and not be bothered. As a principle, noncoercion is far more fundamental to that society functioning. Am I myself going to be a part of that kind of living? No. But I'm also the kind of person who takes a pay cut to work at a co-op in our modern society. I value a greater degree of autonomy and cooperative thinking, at the expense of certain ease of living. I can preach the values of my way of doing things, and I can preach the values of choosing Linux over Windows, but at the end of the day I don't OBJECT to you using Windows and working for Wal Mart. I OBJECT to coercive authority.
Anonymous (ID: 7EFMGrtf) Moldova No.512212953 >>512215966
>>512212752
Anarchism in the general sense doesn't care about "coercion" in the general semse. You can shit out paragraphs upon paragraphs trying to deny it, but the fact still remains: anarchism is an opposition to hierarchies.
Anonymous (ID: EvYJ/UXi) United States No.512212960
>>512204840 (OP)
>Criticisms and what you think about liberalism and anarcho-capitalism. Does it work?

It happens in cycles, whether people want it or not. Libertarianism->Centralization -> Socialism/Communism -> libertarianism.

As people get more and more desperate since our fiat monetary system is failing, the free market and Capitalism will be blamed (We have Crony capitalism + Fiat money). This moves the herd towards more centralization and socialism. Once we have socialism and tyranny people will demand that the entire thing is destroyed and start over. Starting over is basically Libertarianism.
Anonymous (ID: kbPVlQZa) United States No.512213010
>>512204840 (OP)
they both result in plutocracy and slavery.
Anonymous (ID: lgUTcado) Estonia No.512213012
>>512212571
Hmm, if only there was some kind of asset with a proven track record spanning millennia...
Anonymous (ID: RCp/oSMZ) United States No.512213093
>>512212667
But that's more just anarchy than libertarianism. I reduced it to the more common, more likely neighbor to neighbor dispute involving dumping because in a vacuum it seems fine: go ahead and shit up your own land, but the larger consequences, waste and fumes spreading invisibly beyond your territory, aren't part of any simple agreement. You need to beat these considerations into your society as a survival instinct. You need everyone making sure they don't accidentally inconvenience the neighbors or their entire family could get murdered in their sleep. There is an order here that doesn't require a government or an HOA.
Anonymous (ID: bmB30L0G) United States No.512213292
>>512204840 (OP)

Anarchism (both Communist and Capitalist) can only exist as a philosophy. It can't exist as an actual form of government.

Liberalism is a vague term.
Anonymous (ID: jN3XKYeF) United States No.512214387
>>512204840 (OP)
>>512155014
Anonymous (ID: 50XzSGfX) United States No.512215966 >>512216424
>>512212953
>anarchism is an opposition to hierarchies.
Which only exist as a result of coercion and necessarily form as a direct consequence of coercion.

Coercion is the thing that breaks the principle of free association. If I were to reduce anarchism to a single immutable idea it would be “free association” before it was “no hierarchy”.
Anonymous (ID: 7EFMGrtf) Moldova No.512216424 >>512216954
>>512215966
>necessarily form as a direct consequence of coercion
This is a lie.

>Coercion is the thing that breaks the principle of free association
This is also a lie. You can be coerced into the community's standards of behavior by being threatened by exclusion, which may very well mean death for you, even if not directly at the hand of the community. Anarchism doesn't oppose this.
Anonymous (ID: 50XzSGfX) United States No.512216954 >>512217209
>>512216424
>This is also a lie. You can be coerced into the community's standards of behavior by being threatened by exclusion, which may very well mean death for you, even if not directly at the hand of the community. Anarchism doesn't oppose this.
I actually think most serious anarchists would be at least a little bit uncomfortable with it. It follows from the same arguments that exist against wage slavery: “do or die is not an actual choice”. Obviously a community can’t necessarily hold itself responsible for a person whose behavior gets them ostracized EVERYWHERE. But I think that free association as a principle comes with this positive, live-and-let live mutuality baked in that goes
>this isn’t working out for any of us, wouldn’t everyone, including you, be happier if you were somewhere else with people you could get along with better?

I think the only real exception to that would be the use of violence to engage in coercion/exploitation; you start forcing other people to do your bidding, you lose sympathy and gain lead in your body.

Incidentally, the argument you’re making doesn’t distinguish coercion from hierarchy anyway. If a “community” all come together to mandate the behavior of another person, that’s a hierarchy, is it not? What is the State but a community that collectively decides to tell YOU what to do? What word you choose to apply to it doesn’t really change the thing being objected to, which is the use of violence to compel others to do what you want them. Call that coercion, or hierarchy, or exploitation, or rulership, or involuntary association. The words don’t really matter as much as the principle.
Anonymous (ID: 7EFMGrtf) Moldova No.512217209 >>512217704
>>512216954
>most serious anarchists would be at least a little bit uncomfortable with it
No. First-world, middle-class, urbanite anarkiddie LARPers are uncomfortable with this. But those are not serious people by any stretch.

>It follows from the same arguments that exist against wage slavery: “do or die is not an actual choice”
No one owes you a choice.

>If a “community” all come together to mandate the behavior of another person, that’s a hierarchy, is it not?
No, it is not.
Anonymous (ID: 50XzSGfX) United States No.512217704 >>512217841
>>512217209
>No, it is not
It’s as much a hierarchy as anything else you would object to as hierarchical. There’s a reason anarchist decisionmaking prefers consensus-finding to majoritarianism; just because there are more people that want something doesn’t mean it’s a positive thing to force the smaller subset of the group to go along with it. Not if that kind of division can be avoided.

“Compulsory ostracism” is the kind of tool I’d be extremely wary of. Not necessarily invalid, but suspicious. A port of last resort.
Anonymous (ID: 7EFMGrtf) Moldova No.512217841
>>512217704
>It’s as much a hierarchy as anything else
Justify this incoherent statement. You literally won't.

>consensus-finding vs. majoritarianism
This has nothing to do with what we're talking about right now.