Thread 512746700

explain to me why i should oppose a universal basic income. It seems like it's just free money they give to me for nothing.
>muh taxes
the amount id be getting would be more than i pay in taxes. Only wealthy and some upper middle class people would lose money on this. I'm white btw.


https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2025/04/11/health/germany-universal-basic-income-study-intl-scli-wellness

Big brother is not really your brother.

>>512746700 (OP)
Pipe dream. They want to kill the useless eaters, not save them. Best case scenario, they pay you to kill yourself slowly with poisoned food and pharmaceuticals, or they'll even let you kill yourself for free if you're Canadian. Put you in the pod and make you go to sleep forever.

There is no real good reason to oppose. It's just a logical program, it's hard to understand why anyone would oppose it.

>>512746700 (OP)
>>512749745
You must be joking. This program takes from the productive and gives to the unproductive. Nothing good can come out of it. Best case scenario is people live like wall-e characters on the axiom but even then you need an AI to manage everything.

my concern with UBI is like how the company towns of the 19th and 20th centuries used to operate. mining towns and other company towns issued scrip which was the only currency their stores accepted. imagine Bezos comes out and supports UBI, but the income you get is only viable at amazon. else it's worthless. and it's all digital, so like EBT it can be shutoff with the click of a mouse. digital guillotine. it's possible, UBI makes sense if it's on guardrails. not sure what that would look like. probably an expansion of the EBT program, which is the closest comparison currently in operation.

>>512751138
>and it's all digital, so like EBT it can be shutoff with the click of a mouse
How is this different from a job in a right to work state? During covid tons of people were fired for not getting the vax.

>>512749691
This.

It is less expensive to kill the useless eaters. Anyone arguing for UBI is arguing from the top of the stack. But you’re not at the top of the stack if you’re anywhere near a UBI payment making a difference. Those people want more money and your life is now cutting into their profits.

>>512746700 (OP)
Because we tried a tiny tiny version of this during COVID and we got generational inflation, which is exactly what every smart person said would happen. UBI only sounds good if you don't know what money is and what it's for.

An economy is a pile of stuff. Money is just how we keep track of how much people care about various types of stuff. Giving people money for nothing just changes the ratio of money to stuff. More money chasing the same amount of stuff means the stuff now costs that much more money.

If you want to make life more affordable, you need to make more stuff and get it to more people, because then it'll become cheaper. You can't make things cheaper by printing money. Otherwise why not give everyone a million dollars a month, or a billion?

>>512753261
None of this is true. Vastly more money was created for PPP loans, and general government spending, but magically its always the covid checks that people complain caused inflation.
>Money is just how we keep track of how much people care about various types of stuff
No money is a scam banks can make out of nothing for free. https://tuckercarlson.com/tucker-show-richard-werner
Of course you don't object to banks making themselves money for free, only when regular people get it for free.

>>512746700 (OP)
You'd need price control on consumer goods and housing, along with mass deportations and a permanent moratorium on immigration, otherwise prices would go up because everyone has an extra $2000 a month or whatever, and nons would immigrate for the free gibs. Niggers and hicks already leech off of welfare which is supposed to be for people with disabilities and the elderly.

>>512753363
>None of this is true.
All of this is true.
>Vastly more money was created for PPP loans
Their effect was actually pretty interesting, monetarily speaking, since the debt being waived into 2021 meant they're kind of neutral
> and general government spending
Giving every adult $1000 a month would add $2,400,000,000,000 to government spending, 100% of which would have to be printed out of thin air. Guess what that'd do to the price of everything?
>bunch of retarded poorfag seethe
What's most interesting about money stuff is that this is a game we all have to play, at least since we hit our teens, and yet so many people refuse to learn absolutely anything about it and just seethe about people who do
It'd be like if everyone in this country had to play baseball every day, and there's a significant percentage who refuse to learn any of the rules, or how to swing a bat, and just sit around complaining about how unfair it is that other people are playing a lot better.

>>512753892
Notice how he silently ignored everything I said about Richard Werner and credit creation? This is the key to understanding the economy. Incidentally, Werner advocated direct cash payments to citizens like the covid checks.

https://banklies.org/

>>512749935
Not really, it’s even more retarded. If it’s really UBI, Universal means everyone gets it, no matter if you are unemployed or not. It is completely retarded. It just raises the baseline from 0 to whatever amount of money they distribute per person. This is also why none of these “experimentas” they are doing with a subset of the population will bear any meaningful results.

>>512754461
>give people money printed from nothing
Noooo it will destroy the economy
>give people money printed from nothing but make them waste time at a fake "job" first
Fuck yeah capitalism and the free market

>>512746700 (OP)
It doesn't work without closed borders. The system can't support billion indians and the people who support UBI most won't close the borders.

>>512753985
>This is the key to understanding the economy.
It is not. It's great for misunderstanding the economy.
Werner is an idiot, of the kind you find lots of in academia, namely the kind who can always explain what happened but never what's going to happen. It turns out it's actually really easy for a 120 IQ to do the first, and really really hard to do the second.
Don't listen to broke academics about money. That's how you get Marxism, an entire ideology based around reasonably bright losers' seethe at how they're not rich so clearly the system must be broken. Especially don't listen to broke acadmeic economists, who are the most clueless people alive.
Economists are mid-level employees hired by decision makers to make data support what the decision makers want to do. That's the whole of their profession. Economists who aren't good enough to get real jobs teach. Economists who are so ridiculous they have trouble getting a teaching job should not be listened to.

>>512754759
>Don't listen to broke academics about money
Werner is a self made millionaire who sold one of the all time best selling books Princes of the Yen, picrelated.

Are you Jewish by chance?

>>512754704
I don’t really care DESU, my bags are full of non-printable commodities that will 1) keep up with the inflation 2) be more demanded in a hyperinflation scenario. Go ahead with your silly plans!

>>512746700 (OP)
>india
Absolutely hilarious. There is literally nothing about that country and its distribution methods that promote “fairness”. They are so fucked up in their views that they do not see the complete deprivation of basic necessities to (X) group of people as an issue. Please practice this, India. Please. I want you to get your asses kicked in the resulting riots

>>512746700 (OP)
As an unproductive retard with no marketable skills you should be all for it.
But normal people should not let you get that.
At least say thank you if you depend on charity. You 'deserve' nothing.

>>512755111
How very jewish of you.

>>512754910
>Werner is a self made millionaire who sold one of the all time best selling books Princes of the Yen, picrelated.
>mastery of economics
>worth a couple million
>from selling books to idiots like you, keeping them poor forever
Stop listening to idiot academics, especially about money. Academics talk out of their ass about absolutely everything and can be wrong for decades, like Reiche and Krugman, without suffering even a slight career setback.
If you want to learn about money, go on Youtube and look for people who actually trade FX, who need to be right about their concepts AND their execution or they get fired.
Please, stop listening to econ professors. If they knew anything about how the world actually works they'd be billionaires. There are plenty of FX guys who'll explain things to you for free.

>>512746700 (OP)
You forgot to mention why all those UBI experiments where stopped. Also hypothetical implementation is used next to 3 failed experiments and one failed African shit hole who's whole existence is based off of handouts. Strong OP.

>>512755320
You dodge a question again. Are you Jewish?

>>512755196
Update your scripts morons. It isn't 2020 anymore.

>>512755409
Shalom
>>512755373
Yes he is

>>512755480
ventilate your cubicle sir.

>>512755373
Of course I'm not Jewish
If I were, I'd be rubbing my palms together and laughing that another dumb goy is falling for the retarded bullshit spilling out of another broke economics "expert's" mouth about a topic he can easily learn about for free on the internet
Try Eurodollar University on YT, or Financelot on Twitter, for the very very most basic concepts of how things actually work

If an economics professor had any insight into the functioning of major economies, he would not be a professor. He'd be making very very large sums of money applying his knowledge in the private sector. If he sort of knew what he was talking about, he'd be making smaller but still very large sums of money working as a top-level economist in a very large organization that makes a lot of money by being right about economics.
If he is a professor (can't get a job in the private sector) being brought in to consult by government bureaucrats, it's because he is a genuine idiot who still might be useful to help a midwit politician do a terrible thing that he wants to do.

>>512755683
>He'd be making very very large sums of money applying his knowledge in the private sector.
Ok this is what Werner did though.

>>512749935
You're describing welfare. UBI is meant as a replacement.

You're fixing what isn't broken.
Yes, there are a "bullshit" jobs. Yes, a lot of people don't like theor work and some may feel trapped. Yes, there are people claiming welfare.

But despite those trivial and small scale issues, the system just works. Why risk shaking it up for some pie in the sky fantasy?
As good as UBI may seems, the current system fulfills all our needs.

>>512746700 (OP)
Who do you think is going to end up with a majority of that money?
Corporations and landlords will once again get an indirect handout.

>>512749539
How much silver are modern quarters made of?

>>512755950
>the current system fulfills all our needs.

>>512755683
>Just Google it bro

Please kys ASAP

>>512746700 (OP)
it will be necessary once robots start phasing out minimum wage work and unemployment skyrockets everywhere.
any country that doesn't have UBI at that point will turn into Haiti.

>>512749745
>>512749935
>>512755867
How is it any different from pensions and social security where there needs to be an endless supply of workers at the bottom?
Funny that we only hear about that with capitalism. We've seen plenty of countries increase retirement age or open their border to keep their social systems viable.

>>512755320
Recommend any Youtube channel to listen to.

>>512755725
>Ok this is what Werner did though.
As far as I'm aware he's never had a job outside a government agency
Real economists work for, or run, very big companies who pay them many millions of dollars for their insight. Bad economists end up teaching at the #98 university in the UK.

>>512756403
Eurodollar University is a good one to start with, if you want to understand about money creation and the offshore dollar market that's now trillions of dollars big and kind of out of anyone's control. New Economic Thinking is gud too.
Financelot on Twitter is also good though he's more into screaming about imminent doom rn

>>512756425
>As far as I'm aware
Correct, you are ignorant of reality.
>Real economists work for, or run, very big companies who pay them many millions of dollars for their insight.
Correct, he did this as well.

>>512756403
https://www.youtube.com/@douglassocialcredit7812

>>512756581
>Correct, you are ignorant of reality.
Lmao I forgot that he did spend some time at the senior asset manager at BEAR STEARNS, after which he's been exiled to academia forever. And not high-end academia, he teaches at the 98th ranked university (out of 130) in the UK. This is because he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Please stop listening to washed-up academics from bottom-tier universities because they say stuff about a subject you know nothing about that you think sounds right. What money they make is by sounding good to people like you. Nobody will hire him in any real job, and nobody will even hire him for a fake job in a university that has any sort of a reputation to maintain. This is because the opinion of everyone who knows what they're talking about is that he does not know what he's talking about.

>>512756568
>>512756618

>>512746700 (OP)
It isn't needed. Only subWhites are unable to take care of themselves in our advanced civilization where knowledge is free and incomes flow freely if you follow some basic guidelines.

>>512756900
>Lmao I forgot
No you didn't you're a shill and had to look it up after I called you out on it.
>Spend some time
That's a funny way to spell
> His professional experience includes more than four years as chief economist at Jardine Fleming Securities (Asia) Ltd. in Tokyo, a stint as Senior Managing Director at Bear Stearns Asset Management Ltd., and founding Senior Portfolio Manager of the Bear Stearns Global Alpha Fund. He has run several global macro funds
Source: https://richardwerner.org/about/
>98th ranked
He teaches at Oxford. Oxford is usually considered the #1 or #2 university in the UK in any credible ranking, the other of course being Cambridge.

Of course I could have posted this all from the beginning but it's been great to make an example of you, frantically covering up one lie after another. You're a shill; mentioning Werner, credit creation, etc. brings you clowns out every time. Get fucked.

>>512749691
How are you supposed to be a useful eater if there are hardly any jobs because AI and automation took them all?

>>512757237
And the flipside to that question, who's going to buy all the stuff the hyperefficient AI factories are going to be producing? UBI is inevitable because eventually a country is going to figure out it's the only option, and then nobody else will be able to compete or maintain order.

>>512757215
>a stint as Senior Managing Director at Bear Stearns Asset Management Ltd., and founding Senior Portfolio Manager of the Bear Stearns Global Alpha Fund.
I'm going to assume you're younger than 20 so you don't understand how deeply funny it is to have BEAR STERNS as the final private sector job he had followed by 20 years of academia and government
>He teaches at Oxford
He teaches at Winchester, ranked #98 out of 130 universities in the UK. I think he sued Cambridge for being racist to him in refusing to hire him.

Stop listening to washed-up academics because you, not knowing anything about the field, think what they said sounds good. If he wasn't a laughingstock he'd be running a large firm and making insane money, as everyone who's competent in that field does. Instead, he's teaching for a professor's salary at one of the absolutely lowest-ranked universities in a formerly relevant country.

Sorry that your dream of getting free money from the government isn't going to happen. If it helps, your expenses would instantly go up by more than your free government money and you'd end up poorer.

>>512746700 (OP)
A pathway to full-blown corruption and endless inflation.

>>512757980
>A pathway to full-blown corruption and endless inflation.
Interesting, we have that now, but don't have UBI.

>>512756144
>>512755867
with welfare there's work requirements. ideally there wouldn't be welfare at all.
the UBI would have to be very low for society not to collapse. It's insane mental gymnastics to think most people wouldn't just slack off and that the economy would magically keep running.

>>512757237
>there are hardly any jobs because AI and automation took them
You think like a nigger. Historically White men didn't need to ask a large corporation for a job like a retarded simp. We would make our own way in the world. For some faggots founding a business and providing for yourself is unthinkable.

>>512758273
>It's insane mental gymnastics to think most people wouldn't just slack off and that the economy would magically keep running.
Being able to slack off is the entire point of developing technology. Do you think man invented the wheel and the engine and automation to work harder? What we're doing now is UBI with fake work attached. Instead of just giving people the money created by the automation/tech for free, we're making people do fake, performative jobs for it instead. UBI isn't about giving unproductive people free money - we're already doing that. It's about giving productive people a raise, and giving unproductive people the free money they're already receiving, but without the fake work (which actually wastes more resources).

>>512758701
This.

>>512757440
You're talking about people who have a better understanding of finances than you while calling them "washed up" and completely avoiding the practicality of a UBI. All the while, foreign countries are already implementing the practice in various ways. Go be a retarded nigger somewhere else kek

>>512746700 (OP)
Utterly incompatible with open borders.

>>512760329
Any functional society is incompatible with open borders. Your argument is correct in that it's an argument against open borders, not against UBI.

I did the math on it once. If you try to give every American $1,000 a month, for only six months, and remove those under 18 and those in prison, you're still looking at almost 2 trillion dollars. It's unsustainable, and that's only for six months. Anything less than $1,000 a month shouldn't even be considered income, that won't cover rent for most Americans as it is. We don't even spend that much on our military.
Always sounds good in theory, but I've yet to see a way that it could possibly work. Where is the money supposed to come from? And if the FR printed more to accommodate UBI, eggs just may become $40.

>>512761048
I'll add that when I looked into this, I tried to assume the gibs would mostly be spent and not saved; I assume only a minority would reserve the UBI in savings as the majority of consumers will consoom. This comes with two notable situations:
1. purchasing power is leveraged to those who save it and hooknoses, banks, and billionaire goys don't want that
2. the UBI spent consuming is transferred immediately back into the hands of hooknoses, banks, and billionaire goys via spending

Either way it's a shitshow.

>>512761048
>It'll cost too much
>We can't do it because (insert some reason here).

You mean the money that's created out of thin air? Just admit you have no interest in seeing how it could work out practically. If I had an Amazon drone that delivered 30 packages in 2 hours, where it takes a human 8 hours, it basically just did free work. If you want that money to go the CEOs just say so, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

>>512749935
>This program takes from the productive and gives to the unproductive.
False. Social security has always helped the people in need to survive a hard period in life. Joe Rogan often speaks about having a poor childhood living off food-stamps and that helped him becoming one of the most productive people on the planet. Mind you he is not a CEO who does nothing, he uploads three 3 hour episodes every week and does commentary for the UFC and then some. Without having that childhood experience he wouldn't have become successful.
UBI would also help reduce employee expenses for companies, so it would literally benefit everyone. It's just that all tax payers would have to contribute to it and as long as people have incorrect assumptions about UBI like you do, it won't happen.

I argue that our government pampers the lazy ones. They get free money for doing fuck all nothing and drink booze with it, in their little apartments paid by tax bucks.

>>512746700 (OP)
I oppose it because I have a job and I pay taxes.
Every $ that the government give to someone is a $ that have been stolen from my pocket.

>But, Anon, we will steal this money to the capitalists who steal it from you, you won't have to pay the bill

>>512761802
I literally said if the FR prints it to accommodate UBI, it will destroy purchasing power entirely. You can print it all day but it lowers the value of an already inherently worthless currency. Printing it isn't the problem, it's maintaining the artificial value. If you print it at will and give it to everyone instead of a select few, it will destroy the value. Do I agree with this system? No, it's fucking retarded, but this is the answer to the current situation. It can't be done without a complete economic overhaul, in which case should be entirely overstepped and we should proceed full-steam-ahead to automation and AI workers instead of sweating food-credits. Even if you did print all the money and distribute it, corps and banks are not going to take the blunt of it, they will inflate to such an absurd rate that you may as well consider your UBI as pennies.

>>512761882
>Social security has always helped the people in need to survive a hard period in life. Joe Rogan
This is entirely untrue...
35% of social security recipients are homeless drug addicts. The system pays for them to live this lifestyle. It's a monstrous waste!
Also.. Joe Rogan.... LMAO

>>512761802
Okay. You are an American. There is 331,5 M people in your country.
If you want to give $1000 to every person, that would be 331,5 BILLIONS per month.
This is 4 TRILLIONS per year. That is 16 Jeff Bezos per year.

Where the fuck would the money come from, genius? Ho, trillions are cheap because we have robot? Think again, China have robot too and if you are not competitive against them, then you loose the market and you have nothing.

>>512746700 (OP)
kys faggot retard struggle session nigger bitch whore face cocksucker.

>>512762005
You know, ending capitalism to implement a new, better system is a thing, but just destroying capitalism to have all of us fighting to death over a can of bean is just evil.
Some men just want to watch the world burn.

Personally, I would like to not be burned alive.

>>512761901
What if we make machines(AI) to work for that other half?

>>512746700 (OP)
India has UBI.
Do you want to become like India?

>>512762328
>India has UBI.
We don't even have the minimum wage rule yet, let alone UBI.

>>512762308
Go ahead, build those machines for free. And find a way to stop China from having the same machine producing the same shit without the 4 trillions a year burden. If you can't, you won't have your free 4 trillion$ a years.

>>512746700 (OP)
>xplain to me why i should oppose a universal basic income
because thanks to bitcoin, i no longer need it.
what would be the point of me making it if every slob can live without suffering?
go back to the cage, wagie! its monday, time to earn your keep!

>>512762413

India has 1000s of free schemes and no tax on 97% of the population.
It's defacto a UBI country.
People just try to get more freebies and protest if you take away anything.
This is exactly what will happen in the West too.

You cant give lazy niggers anything except the whip.

>>512762466
How are they lazy?

Seriously never seen an indian not doing some sort of labor

>>512746700 (OP)
>I'm white btw.

>>512746700 (OP)
>Government introduces 500 UBI bucks a month for everyone
>Landlords push up rent by 500...

>>512746700 (OP)
UBI will completely wreck what's left of Europe unless we close the fucking borders already

>>512746700 (OP)
In germoney we still have a basic income, its called "Bürgergeld".
Do nothing and your rent, gas and your health insurance is paid for + 560€ pocket money every month

>>512762429
when machines get ahead of humans in decision making, UBI will be possible.

>>512762973
No. Even when machines will get ahead of humans, a 4 trillion $ a year drain will still make the US made product unsold, which mean that in any case, you would still not have a free 4 trillions a year.

And we are talking about science fiction, not real world politic. A kind of science fiction that include terminators, not a post scarity utopia.

>>512762592
Lazy in the sense instead of tackling actual problems they have they will make it their job to find more ways to get more free shit. Once you start giving free stuff people will start slowly trying to get more and more. And they will act like you are abusing them by not giving it to them.
You would think maybe the productive people would have more kids since they have less financial stress but what really ends up happening is the poor people who don't contribute anyway just end up having much more kids.
If anything UBI should be given only on condition that you are an extremely high earner with good genetics and high value to your community - but that's kinda pointless because people who are high earners don't need UBI and theres usually unemployment schemes if such people fall through the cracks.

>>512763852
I offer an alternative: free unconditional job offer from the government. You collect clean the streets and the roads for a pay that is more than what the free market would have given to you, but less than what you would make with a real job. If you are not paraplegic, this would be the only form of welfare in the country.

BI would allow employers to actually pay less because the state tops it up, leading to lower real wages, which in turn disincentivizes investment in machinery

>>512762017
Maybe in your shithole country. Here social security helps WHITE people to get through hard times. In your "country" you became wealthy using slave labor and then you decided to stop and let them free. You reap what you sow.

>>512746700 (OP)
UBI should be implemented in tandem with land value tax.

>>512764260
You never worked a single day in your life.

What would people do, have 100% of their time and $1000/m or half of their free tile and $1500/m.
Employers would have to pay MORE people to get them to work despite them not having to work.

So not only the state would be 4 trillions a year in the red, the market would also have to sell things twice the usual price.
And they would not sell as the rest of the world would not have UBI.

I know you want free money, I want it too, but please, don't make me fight for a can of bean.

>>512764303
Tick tack, motherfucker. You are in the union now, your country don't make its laws anymore. Some unelected karrens do.

>>512764331
Agricultors aren't that rich.

>>512764884
stopped reading after your first line, my principle, saves time usually

>>512749745
Why would I want to create an incentive to contribute nothing, only draw from the efforts of people who work? I wouldnt. Please find the nearest 50 foot drop.

>>512765161
No you don't get it, this world is a utopian world where robots do all the work and AI does all the thinking, the presupposition is that ordinary humans will aim for degrowth anyway and would do less and less things, small is beautiful, smoke weed everyday.
You just tax the robot corporations or whatever man, power to the people.

>>512765037
Want to know how I know it?

>>512765352
Skynet have analysed over 9000 trillions ways to make life easier and found that cutting the fat is the best way to optimize the outcome. Please face the wall now.

>can we at the NYFed keep robbing you if we give you money?
lol update pic rel to ~$236B

>>512761936
Bro just make banks print credit for robot factories and tax most of it, leave only enough for them to pay the debt back then is use it bro for ubi bro.
Inflation free, endless spending bro.

>>512746700 (OP)

the most obvious answer is anywhere it is possible to expand welfare is addicted to importing 3rd world slave labor, legal or not, and unwilling to massively curb the breeding of whatever native underclass exists.

the real answer, is scarcity, until scarcity is eliminated for labor, energy, food, and the majority of commodities, UBI is unworkable.

>>512765352
>this world is a utopian world where robots do all the work
Who do you think is hiding all the infinite free shit robots from us?

>>512746700 (OP)
Three main reasons I can see:
1. Without price control there is zero chance companies will not raise prices to compensate, immediately negating UBI's buying power.
2. UBI will only ever be subsistence level. Governments have zero incentive to allow the citizenry to freely navigate the social order. You will not be able to afford property or a home on UBI alone. You might be able to afford a one bedroom apartment in a government-owned commie-block though.
3. Women will view UBI-men as lower than incels. This will then tremendously magnify the incel population.

>>512746700 (OP)
Why would I take money from my best kid to give it to my worst?

>>512746700 (OP)
They're gonna keep you on a leash you dumbo. Right now wrong opinions will cost you your job, with UBI it will cost you your fucking life.

>>512746700 (OP)
I fully approve UBI in India, maybe in that way the invasion hordes of jeets will cease to exist (or at least shrink).

>>512746700 (OP)
Didn't Switzerland test this some years ago?
Most people got bored and did not know what to do with their time.
Most people wanted to go back to work, as the basic incoming was not enough to pay for activities, restaurants, cinemas, etc.

Who pays for it?