Thread 513078673

Hard to believe that a couple of Neo pagan Prussians would come to conquer all this.

I miss Prussia bros

HRE was kino and I don't know why it doesn't get talked about more.

>>513078673 (OP)
>H
>R
>E
What an unholy monstruosity I am glad we defeated it and chased it off our land for good and later BTFOd its ghibelline cuck lackeys too.

L'HAN GIURATO LI HO VISTI IN PONTIDA
CONVENUTI DAL MONTE E DAL PIANO
L'HAN GIURATO E SI STRINSER LA MANO
CITTADINI DI VENTI CITTÀ

fucking shitalians
native prussians were killed off by germs

>>513079243
OP is Irish you dumb Indonesian toilet cleaner

>>513079340
Bro that's Ivory Coast.

>>513079472
What do you want from me you Malaysian orangutan don't you have some palm oil to drink

>>513078915
Because kikes hate it for some reason. They came up with the whole "not holy not roman not empire, hyuck" meme. I hate them so much.

>>513079652
Nah, the Eastern Roman empire is the empire that gets actually hated on by mainstream historiography the most, to the point even the Byzantine moniker is completely fabricated to detach them from their Roman roots. (While the HRE was indeed not Roman in the slightest, nor very holy since they got excommunicated every other year, though they kinda resembled an empire at times I suppose).

>>513079534
lmao well played. Well played.

>>513079652
Could you explain it to me? Why OP is calling it neopagan?

>>513079876
HOLY SHIT A VANTABLACK NIGGER FROM LIBERIA

>>513079961
It's funny because >we made Liberia. Also, they pretty much immediately reverted to slavery lmao.

>>513079127
>What an unholy monstruosity

It was beautiful, all that decentralized territory acting for its own interests. It's like the polar opposite of the EU. Only a homo would hate the HRE.

Look how soulful North Italy was under the HRE. RIP

>>513080395
Moldbig argued that this is why Norther Italy and Germany Contibuted os much to science and became so advanced. small states seem to become very rich, even bigger caribbean states.

>>513079243
Because each community has to act in its own interest, promoting and nurturing the best and brightest.

While in a state system all the tax money gets sent hundreds of miles away for what are effectively foreign elites to play with while your own city withers and dies under heavy taxation to no benefit.

Imo the HRE was the beating heart of Europe and every year that passes since its death Europe progressively crumbles into nothingness.

>>513080278
The local niggers had sold their grandfathers into slavery so they kinda had it coming, based nigger-enslaving niggers for once

>>513080395
>Look how soulful North Italy was under the HRE
Italy in 1300 was NOT under the HRE, the HRE had been de facto chased out of Italy by the Lombard league by early 1200 already, all they had left were their local proxies the ghibellines. The autonomy of Central and Northern Italian city states was achieved IN SPITE of the HRE, which tried to exhert its control over them more tightly, first with military means and, once they were defeated, through subtler ones.
>>513080516
Moldbug is an hack.

>>513081486
>Italy in 1300 was NOT under the HRE,

Yes it was

> de facto chased out of Italy

de fact the Emperor had no real power to begin with that's why the HRE was so decentralized and hence soulful.

> The autonomy of Central and Northern Italian city states was achieved IN SPITE of the HRE

It was *because* of the HRE and the natural weakness of the state that smaller regions, cities, etc to flourish and this was enjoyed by all of the territories in the HRE not just northern Italy.

>>513082296
>Yes it was
Jesus I can't with Americans. You think Italy was under the HRE because some spots of colour made on MSpaint say so? Lmao.
Again, read up on the Lombard League's wars against Barbarossa before proceeding. De facto the HRE had lost all sorts of power over Central-Northern Italy by 1300 and Italian cities were completely autonomous.
>the Emperor had no real power to begin with
Frederick Redbeard might beg to differ since he repeatedly crossed the Alps and went to war with the explicit intent of bringing the Italian city states under direct Imperial jurisdiction, as they had been previously. He failed as Fredrick II also failed later and that's how Italian polities became fully autonomous, politically, legally etc, to a degree with German states or even Bohemia weren't.
I do not think any historian here would take the notion that "Italy in 1400 was part of the HRE" seriously, it seems to be a thing a lot of Americans who are into history end up thinking because you are largely oblivious to broader historical processes, since this isn't the first time I have to argue this with an American.

>>513082880
Italy's medieval history is so interesting and rich

>>513083077
It's a clusterfuck if you try to reconstruct it precisely, by 1100-1300 you had towns like Norcia, Visso, Camerino etc, which today have like 3-6K inhabitants, becoming de facto independent states and going to war over small villages and towers that would change ownership every other year. I've never been able to find a complete maps of all independent communes.

>>513082880
>. De facto the HRE had lost all sorts of power over Central-Northern Italy by 1300 and Italian cities were completely autonomous.

Which means it was on the same level as most HRE territory, governed in name only, but de facto independent. You aren't making a good case for your position.
>Frederick Redbeard might beg to differ since he repeatedly crossed the Alps and went to war with the explicit intent of bringing the Italian city states under direct Imperial jurisdiction

The Hohstaufens tried to enforce centralization on the whole of the HRE and failed leading to a period of decades without an emperor. All of the HRE then was de facto without a central authority and cities basically managed themselves in Germany, Italy, what is to day Southwest France, the low countries, etc.
>t "Italy in 1400 was part of the HRE" seriously

Yes they would, they'd just add the caveat that to be within the HRE was to be effectively independent, which is why the HRE was so great.

It seems you just want to hate the HRE for the sake of it instead of acknowledging the sort of "benign neglect" that allowed territories within it to prosper.

>>513083813
A map of the HRE in 1356 that apparently "no historian" would sign off on lmao

>>513083813
>Which means it was on the same level as most HRE territory
No Italian polity partook in the imperial election, diet, courts like the imperial chamber court or aulic council etc. None of them was under Imperial immediacy. None of them was legally bound to levy troops for Imperial campaigns. Imperial laws did not apply to them.
Again, the degree simply isn't comparable, no matter how hard you also ignore how many times the emperors went to war to specifically try and bring Italy back under the Imperial fold repeatedly. You know what other areas had to undergo similar military intervention? The Swiss confederacy once it became independent, and Bohemia during the Hussite revolt. I.e such massive military endeavours were not periodically undertaken to bring back into the fold every German polity that minted their own coin or had their own set of local laws in addition to imperial ones, but to reconquer large areas which had de facto militarily seceded. It's disingenuous how you keep trying to conflate the imperial general lack of organization and centralization to the Lombard independist struggle.
>Yes they would,
Nah they wouldn't, never heard one of our historians saying that, maybe yours do idk
>the sort of "benign neglect
It seems to ignore their multiple armed attempts at retaking Italy, benign neglect my ass.

>>513084180
If you like maps so much here, a map of Italian communes in 1300. Notice how the HRE is nowhere to be found.

>>513084620
Idk why my ID changed, anyway that really reminds me of Ukrainians posting maps of Ukraine with 1991 borders pretending the reality on the ground hasn't changed and that they haven't militarily lost those lands

>>513082880
Italy didn't exist back then retard.

Make Allemagne Great Again

>>513084428
>None of them was legally bound to levy troops for Imperial campaigns. Imperial laws did not apply to them.

The same thing applies to pretty much all Imperial territories. If they didn't feel like doing something they just wouldn't whether it be the nobles or free cities. Again we're talking about a collection of territories that didn't have an emperor for decades, and had no centralized enforcement mechanism.

>It's disingenuous how you keep trying to conflate the imperial general lack of organization and centralization to the Lombard independent struggle.

It's all a result of the same general weakness of the "empire" and all the benefits that accrues to parts of its territory.

>It seems to ignore their multiple armed attempts at retaking Italy, benign neglect my ass.


Besides the Hohenstaufens, who died out, the HRE only got involved in North Italy when other powers were trying to take it for themselves, like in the Italian Wars when Spain and France tried to take over. It didn't try to assert direct authority itself during the Italian Wars.

>>513085991
Europe in the Middle Ages according to our resident Austrian intellectual:

>>513086071
>Italy is the Apennine peninsula
retard

>>513086065
>The same thing applies to pretty much all Imperial territories
No it doesn't lmao, in terms of legal, military, elective duties the empire's German territories weren't anywhere as autonomous as its former Italian territories.
>the same general weakness of the "empire"
Again you keep ignoring how that "weak" empire levied massive armies in Germany and launched decade long campaigns to try and take back ownership of Northern Italy. The two only equivalent cases would be the Hussite wars, where their efforts succeeded, and Switzerland, where they also failed as the confederacy also eventually became autonomous.
>The HRE only got involved in North Italy
When it became a free for all for various European powers and the HRE also tried to get a piece of it back, to no avail as Venice outplayed them in the Cambrai league war first and then due to Habsburg and Lutheran autism they became too embroiled in conflicts with France first and then religious infighting.

>>513086279
When I say "SÜDTIROL" you say "IST ITALIEN". Ready?

SÜDTIROL!

>>513086533
You are a dirty south nigger. Terrone di merda

>>513086844
Nein Bruddi Ich bin ein Polentone

>>513079243
Nah they werent. They speak german now. Actually they got finally killed by the soviets.
>>513079652
>>513079840
Jews hate BOTH the HRE and the Basileon.
>but which one is muh real roman empire!
That’s actually jewish D&C. I cant believe you autists havent realized it yet. BOTH Byzantium and the HRE were based. Both got targeted by kikes. Kikes tried D&C on them even back during their own times! That’s how the 4th Crusade happened. The Byzantium vs HRe debate is inorganic. Both were based and both had legitimate claims to being the Roman Empire.

>>513087150
Native Prussians were Baltic, they got Germanized both culturally and genetic. Pretty sad what happened to Baltics, there's only two groups left and they're both suicidal retards, along with their neighbour who are just Balts pretending to be UgroFinnic
Anyway Im kinda partial to the ERE, if anything cause we didn't spend centuries fighting it off unlike the HRE, they actually defended us from Longobards, Arabs and Goths and they left us some nice stuff, and we repaid them by backstabbing them which was the second or third worst thing we did historically.

>>513080395
How do you see it as opposite of the EU? They share the same key characteristics.

They're both a league of countries but too loose to be considered a federation.
They both have official leaders who don't posses enough power to fully control their member states.

>>513087311
Italy got politically buckbroken by moving the capitol off to Constantinople. It basically meant that the political seat of the country existed outside that country. So invaders just kept piling up into eachother as they swept in, never being able to capture the seat of power, leading to the balkanization that stayed all the way until 1860

>>513086419
>Again you keep ignoring how that "weak" empire levied massive armies in Germany and launched decade long campaigns to try and take back ownership of Northern Italy.

As I already pointed out that was only really the Hohstaufens, and that failed, leaving North Italy in the same circumstances as most of Germany, nominally under the Emperor but in reality independent. What's so wrong with that exactly? The alternative is a French style government where the central government actually dominates you and soaks you for tax money.

> in terms of legal, military, elective duties the empire's German territories

territories only complied with the emperor if they felt like it, they were de facto as autonomous as an Italian city state.

> HRE also tried to get a piece of it back

For the most part the HRE was just trying to keep France from taking over Italy.

>>513087570
In HRE you had de facto independence. In the EU you have de facto dependence on a centralized state.

Just one example: princes, towns, etc could print their own money. In the EU states aren't even allowed to do that. Any constituent region also had a veto on any legislation the emperor tried to pass.

Can you veto the EU when it demands open borders/infinite welfare for immigrants?

>>513087311
She said yes?

>>513087575
More or less so, Rome became a religious seat on its own right but couldn't quite impose its will directly on much territory
>>513087580
>As I already pointed out that was only really the Hohstaufens, and that failed,
So once HRE emperors realized taking back Italy was unfeasible they stopped trying to do so directly (prefering instead to wage proxy wars via the ghibellines, who were also defeated) until the occasion arose again centuries later in the Italian wars. Seriously, I can hardly think of anything more definitive than the string of defeats the HRE cumulated in Italy during the Low Middle Ages- direct intervention from the North failed, attempts to reconquer it from the South via intermarriage with the Normans also failed, proxy wars via ghibellines failed. For an empire that allegedly didn't really care about the autonomy of Italian polities, they sure tried to quash it quite a lot before giving up lol.
>in the same circumstances as most of Germany
Wrong, again unlike German ones, no Italian polity partook in the imperial election, diet, courts like the imperial chamber court or aulic council etc. None of them was under Imperial immediacy. Imperial laws did not apply to them. None of them was legally bound to levy troops for Imperial campaigns. For example, while most HRE German states took part in the aforementioned Hussite wars, Italian city-states didnt.
>the HRE was just trying to keep France from taking over Italy.
No lol, they were actively trying to take back their former land, particularly within what today we'd call the Triveneto area- in the case of the city of Trieste they actually did succeed for once, as we only took it back a little over a century ago.

I think this just boils down to the fact that, unlike here, they don't really teach you Italian history in detail down in the States, understably so, so you end up trying to fill in the gaps with MSpaint maps and stuff like that.

Charlemagne was the worst thing to happen to Europe.

>>513087658
States in the EU can print their own money as well as long as they haven't adopted the common currency. In Sweden they have totally independent monetary policy, their crown's value hasn't been tied to euro so they can devalue it or do with it as they please.

The states in EU can also veto common decisions. It's the reason why the sanctions against Russia were so slow because Hungary and Slovakia opposed some of them.
The states here can choose to not follow common immigration policies. Poland and Hungary do pretty much as they want, and even my country has shut the border with Russia which is I heard is against the rules.

Countries can even leave the EU if they want. But I remember reading that the HRE Emperor forced regions to join his empire by force.
Compared to HRE the European Union is a chill union of different people.

>>513078673 (OP)
>prussians did this
doesn't see that prussians are at the top right side of the map

>>513088295
Maybe we are both just dumb because we're seriously arguing with an American about Yuropeen history

>>513086071
no retard, let me tell you about your country.
the unification of "Italy" started in 1848 and wasn't finished until 1871.