Thread 513317450

Take it or leave it.

What would be the point of taking it instead of requiring Russia to take it by force?

I choose more dead Russians

>>513317567

At some point Ukraine's military will collapse and then Russia will take even more.

Might take a few months or a few years tho.

>>513317450 (OP)
What if ukies take it? What guarantees russians stopping there?

>>513317450 (OP)
Republicans are faggot groomers peace

>>513317450 (OP)
Nope, clearly Donetsk has to be split into Ukrainian controlled Donetsk and Russian controlled Donetsk. If the Pakis and Indians can do it, and the two Koreas can do it, so can the Ukies and Russkies.

>>513317779
I'm thinking two more weeks.

>>513318293
Physically impossible numbers wise. Russia has partial hush-hush enforcement into armed forces from large pool of men, Ukraine has less manpower and enforcement into forces isn’t subtle. There is a narrow way through, but Europe has to get its shit together on viable strategy and the shit isn’t even acknowledged yet.

>>513318293
I guess the same guarantees the russians have that the us and eu wont rearm ukraine for round 2.

>>513317450 (OP)
The US media is kidding themselves if they think Americans want anything to do with Ukraine and Russian civil war. They keep trying to bring out feelings of duty towards Ukrainian's that we just dont have. Ukrainians are one rung above Roma Gypsies on the European garbage ladder, in most peoples eyes.

>>513319056
Why shouldn't they? Russia already So weak they fear a successful attack from ukraine in the coming years?

>>513317450 (OP)
>can't even take Bakhmut Raion
>demanding 4 oblasts
kekek

>>513319237
>Why shouldn't they?

I never said they should not, learn to read.

>>513317450 (OP)
They should give Ukraine the lower part back and for that they should get the upper part. The way the current proposed border just doesn't fell right, almost looks like russia is swallowing the country.

>>513319660
that might work
see, only germans have the correct ideas

>>513319070
That's why you will fight China, goy

>>513317450 (OP)
Wrong. Rubio already shut down that fake news, fell for it again boy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4OtNgw7SDw&t=121s
Ukraine will decide.
>>513317567
it's BS, watch the vid in this post
>>513317779
Wrong. Watch this vid. They ain't getting shit. There isn't going to be a cease fire any ways. There will be this
https://files.catbox.moe/dm99i3.mp4
because putin won't accept the terms, and either will zelinsky.

>>513318539
Wrong. See here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4OtNgw7SDw&t=121s

>>513317779
I mean, sure, Russia has a much larger population than Ukraine and a powerful military industry. Theoretically, it's almost certain that if the EU and the United States don't increase their arms shipments, the Ukrainian army will eventually collapse. The question isn't whether it's possible; the question is: is Russia willing to pay the price? Between dead and wounded, the casualties can already be counted in the hundreds of thousands, and there's still a lot of territory to conquer. Russia can fight Ukraine until the Ukrainians run out of men, but winning a war of attrition with a country of 40 million people comes at a high cost, even for a country as populous as Russia.

>>513320166
the real question in all of this, why is Russia so incompetent
absolutely mindboggling

>>513320166
That 40 million is already down to 28 million (numbers from reuters). And in a war of attrition, the collapse is always sudden and total. If you want a recent example, look no further than the fall of Assad

>>513320299
>t. Lost two world wars

>>513320166
they need men
you can volunteer

>>513317450 (OP)
they have to give up dontesk and luhansk
those were the regions that broke away in 2014 civil war
putin is going to have to give everyone a history lesson again

>>513317450 (OP)
Counter offer. Russians are bled by the hundreds of thousands for it. Seriously what the fuck does Ukraine even get out of that deal, trump and putin are actually fucking retarded. The dealnis more dead russians.

>>513320475
anon, we conquered Ukraine in a few months back then

>>513317644
I do too however 140 million Russians and 26 million North Koreans are willing to die for Putin.

>>513320166
>but winning a war of attrition with a country of 40 million people comes at a high cost.

Its only 31 million today.

They seem to be willing. The Russian mind set is quite different to the west.

>>513320079
>They ain't getting shit.

Who is going to stop them, you?

>>513317779
But what would be the point of taking it instead of requiring Russia to take it by force?

>>513320721
How did that one turn out?

>>513317779
>At some point Ukraine's military will collapse and then Russia will take even more.
They also plan to go for the Baltic states and then on to the rest of eastern Europe after. They want the old Russian Empire back and by hook or by crook (probably a little of both) they mean to have it.

>>513317450 (OP)
Why do they keep spelling Kiev incorrectly?

>>513320869
Russia has already taken it by force, dumbass. Ukraine isn't getting it back.

>>513320869

>But what would be the point of taking it instead of requiring Russia to take it by force?

If russia takes it by force, it means you lost your proxy war completely.

It makes you look weak to the rest of the world.

>>513317450 (OP)
It's a fair deal.

Remember:
>puccians have not attempted to initiate peace talks until this year
>puccians are projecting a strategic overreach if the war is extended even with current frontlines
>US security guarantee details may be only in agreement; permanent troop deployment isn't guaranteed
>Ukrainian situation, while not ideal by any means, has several advantages - funding is conditional as opposed to definitely depleted, manpower can be resolved by european (or even just polish mobilization, and there's very little downside to pushing the puccians out of crimea
>pushing puccians out of crimea also gives turks less power as it lessens the impact of their control over the Bosporus strait

>>513320930
>>513320475
didn't we invade you both times though?

>>513319660
Russia proposed giving Ukraine back the territory it controls outside of those 4 oblasts.
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/trump-pushing-summit-putin-zelensky-next-friday

>>513321037
Europeans are not going to fight Russia.

The Pols are also not going to fight Russia for Ukraine, they would rather watch it collapse and take part of it them selves.

>>513321071
Yeah, thanks for the free land btw

>>513320930
Go to downtown Brussels and tell us

>>513320829
>The Russian mind set is quite different to the west
You are right. To die for a Russian is the end of suffering so 10s of millions dead is nothing. The west will recoil at 10 thousand dead. The US could nuke them but a Russian doesn't give a shit if 70 or 80 million die and all Putin has to hit is Indianapolis or some other city and the US done for.

>>513317450 (OP)
So basically give up location with most of Ukraine fortifications? Gee I wonder what would happen after this...

>>513321328
Si señor, muy gracias

>>513321125
he didnt propose to give that region back though

>>513321328
Do us euros all a favor and tell putin its OK to nuke Brussels.

>>513320965
Agree Baltics are next and NATO won't do shit.

>>513320413
The Syrian civil war lasted more than a decade. The country was destroyed, and today Syria is a failed state in which the "government" doesn't even control the entire territory. Is Russia willing to fight a decade-long war? And above all, what will it win? Because if they have to fight for every house they take, every street, as they have done so far, the only thing that will remain of Ukraine is a pile of rubble.

>>513321471
Putin means giving back to Ukraine what's circled for the rest of Donetsk

>>513321595
I second this notion

>>513321677
Russia is fine with rubble since it will gain the remainder of the population

>>513320829
The problem with losing so many people is that we're not in the 20th century. The birth rate is below the replacement level almost everywhere on the planet, except in Africa. The soldiers Russia loses today won't be replaced by young people tomorrow. And without manpower, who will keep the Russian economy running? I think gaining territory at the expense of sacrificing population isn't a very good idea right now, unless the Russians find a way to raise the birth rate again.

>>513317450 (OP)
>>513317779
They only need to wait out before human soldiers will be replaced with fully automated war machines.

>>513318293
There's no. "Гpaницы Poccии зaкaнчивaютcя тaм, гдe мoжнo пoлyчить пизды."

"The borders of Russia end where you can get your ass kicked", in my rough translation.

>>513317450 (OP)
we are ow at the "options"-level...

>2022: russia runs out of everything. oinkraine will win.
>2023: crimea will be retaken! then oinkraine will win.
>2024: we need to make this war so costly it becomes a "strategic defeat" for russia. oinkraine will win.
>2025: broadcasting various "options"-plans for conflict-solution.
>2026: ...

and then what?

>>513318293
>What guarantees russians stopping there?
what guarantees you NAFO-troons stop expanding in oinkraine?

>>513319766
>see, not only germans are strategic retards who have no idea what all this shit is actually about. surprise: its not oinkraine nur the EU-cucks.

>>513317450 (OP)
We should join with russia and steamroll europe and canada and then form a megacountry called 'the north' and rule the world.

>>513322016
Russia reportedly hosts 1.2 million Ukrainian refugees, according to the UNHCR.

That's not including the people left on the occupied territories.

>>513320965
neocon mind-war victim...

>>513317567
>I will lose a conventional war, and slaughter several generations of my nation's men, which will take generations to recover from
>In the end, without direct intervention from a third party, I will lose the territory regardless
The weak capitulate immediately.
The retarded never capitulate.
The intelligent would seek to find the optimal point in the war at which to surrender, where you can sacrifice the least territory for a reasonable death toll and whatever diplomatic concessions you can eke out.
Ukraine is well on its way to total defeat. You can't engage in mutual attrition warfare with someone with higher numbers.

>>513317450 (OP)
They cannot leave one inch of coastline to Ukraine, this doesn't go far enough

>>513322711
The Russian border?

>>513322861
please say what you disagree with

>>513323113
Russia is so weak it needs to take land in negotiations that it can’t take on the battlefield.
So I guess WWIII is totally fine if they want to go there.

Why doesn't Poland declare war on Ukraine for its territory back? Ukraine stole heaps of Poland after ww2. Now it demands Poland protect it? If Poland declared war on Ukraine, it would get it? I think Ykraine would have to give it back

I am honestly surprised that they’re willing to leave them sea access. There really isn’t any point in Russia agreeing to this, because it allows Ukraine to be flooded with western arms and money for the next ten years until they fancy another go at it

It doesn’t end the way redditors wanted it to. Russia won’t be packing up and going home and Ukraine isn’t going to become Sweden, or wherever they had in mind. Ukraine is going to become an even worse version of what it was, a glowie dumping ground and money laundering territory of sex traffickers and smugglers. Russia will retain its pariah status until Europe has a particularly cold winter and it becomes best friend again. Mr Donald will open up lots of deals to buy Russian oil and gas. The comedian in charge of Ukraine will get to go live in Israel and do cocaine with Epstein

Russia probably does want all the territory it had at some great empire expansion, what country doesn't want the maximum borders? What it thinks it can geopolitically GET though, is more a matter of security. The European plains are wide and open, and all of their borders are just lines on agreed paper. The Dnieper River is a natural boundary like the Black Sea and the Caucasus Mountains, it also isn't extending past Moscow Latitudally. Ukraine was never allowed to join NATO because of that border, but the Dnieper is easier to protect from land invasion. Close the bridges and there's little access you can't make yourself.

Of course, that border is easier to have when it's not AT Kyiv's doorstep, so more likely the Cherasky and Kyiv Oblast would stay in Ukraine's hands as well. That still better follow that Latitudal divide emerging along the Finnish and Baltic NATO borders. Belarus (and maybe a purchased County trade from South Lithuania in exchange for economic support to the Baltics to connect Kalinigrad) could either be an ally state or taken over in the wake of a collapse so both NATO and Russia have a territorial foothold on either site of the big LINE which would provide a new Concert to hold for however many years ahead as the EU states confederate and eventually unify as smaller states create military blocs to hold in the multipolar world.

Then NATO can close access to the Atlantic as a punishment, forcing Russia to play nice for that international trade while also ensuring NATO doesn't have the logistical access to just roll up to Moscow.

>>513322863
you forget that the french have nukes. If russia didn't have nukes, the us could also invade them easily.

>>513323113
>>513323879
that would also have the side effect of russia being able to annex with Transnistria, making ukrainian borders even less defensible.

>>513323243
he is schizo

>>513323650
Oil makes up 0.04% of the polish economy so sanctions could be bad for them.

>>513321455
You proportionately have more mena than we have beaners

>>513317450 (OP)

For reference

>>513324163
In b4
>What about Transinistra
What ABOUT it? It's a joke of a state, and it doesn't hold any geopolitical benefit for Russia to connect to, when Moldova is all but guaranteed to join NATO now.

I know some fed shill's gonna be like NO TOTAL VATNIK DEATH but the problem our country's shit and doesn't care about bleeding another nation for soldiers in an expanded war, that's just military and jew wet dreams. Pull another 9/11 and lie off your asses that Russia did it, MAYBE you can get the West involved but borders naturally lean towards natural boundaries.

The Dnieper will be the country line in the future. It's what Russia could still grab, it provides the regional security they wan

>>513323879
Ukraine having another go at it?
wut?

This is a big mistake if they gave this up.

>>513324283
Even there it lines up with my idea. All the Russian speaking/Russian ethnic land is East of the Dnieper, and the part that isn't is also a mix of Bulgarians and Romanians. Ethnically it can be left to NATO's hands, since Ukraine will want to join them after this anyway.

>>513324728
Russia can't take and hold Kherson anyway. They have up to the river and formed the land bridge to Crimea anyway

>>513324728
Maybe so, but why?

>>513317567
Jewkraine running out of men. Their population is declining rapidly the women leaving the men dying how long can they stay in a permanent war state and survive. not as long as russia.

>>513317450 (OP)
I'll take Option B: kill as many Russians as possible by fighting to the last Ukrainian.

>>513320166
>The question isn't whether it's possible; the question is: is Russia willing to pay the price?
Yes they are. They've given up every geopolitical hotspot and have refused to capitulate despite mild success at best.

>>513319070
Then why does America demand we spend 5% of our GDP on weapons aimed at Russia to be in the American led anti-Russia alliance?

>>513325169
because some of that spending will go to US arms manufactures. plus everyone has to replenish their stockpiles after spending a lot of it in Ukraine.

>>513324514
it would be a massive logistical and tactical advantage for them, if they ever chose to do anything again, as they could move troops and supplies there freely in advance (148.00 mi or 238.18 km from the current front line)

>>513324728
we had the same thought lol >>513319660

>>513325169
Because R&D of weapons systems is incredibly expensive and we're shouldering most of the cost and can't afford it anymore. The decision is for you all to start kicking in by buying weapons, or accept a new China-led world order.

>>513325237
>some of that spending will go to US arms manufactures.
Nobody in their right mind will buy Americans weapons with kill switches after the way Trump has been acting.

>>513325453
>accept a new China-led world order.
Yes please!

>>513325474
Bro... you europeans are buying our weapons to send to Ukraine for free.

>>513317450 (OP)
Don't take it! I want to visit Odessa when I go on my Russia tour.

>>513325474
Every major NATO member makes a significant portion for every major weapons system. Where do you get your retarded MSNBC talking points?

>>513325510
chinks are brutal and stupid subhumans. I hope for this too, but mostly because the worthless degenerate fags in Europe need to be culled.

>>513317567
The US is occupied by ZOG and it wants to wrap things up so it can send more shekels to Netanyahu.

Also... Does anyone find it odd that the US is negotiating a settlement on Ukraine's behalf? If I am in a lawsuit, I would want to be the one with final rights of negotiation, not some third party.

>>513325510
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO THAT'S NOT THE RULES-BASED WORLD ORDER

>>513325510
ALL HAIL THE TRIUMVIRATE

>>513326010
>Does anyone find it odd that the US is negotiating a settlement on Ukraine's behalf?

Not really, it's your Proxy war after all.

>>513325169
It was boris and macroni that were intent on keeping this war going along with some eurocrats. Daddy america is done

>>513317779
if that was the case russia wouldn't agree to it
they just want an exit strategy where they can claim victory to their nation of serfs

>>513326178
>Proceeds to Nuke africa and the indian subcontinent

>>513326274
Do we dare dream of such a wonderful future?

>>513326274
no... NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

>>513317450 (OP)
Communism is jewish.

>>513325510
FUck off anti white vermin

>>513325412
>it would be a massive logistical and tactical advantage for them
Transinistra or what I said with >>513324163?

The trade off would be assuming East Ukraine and Moldova join NATO too so the border is now all of NATO and all of Russia at each other, with Belarus and Ukraine as the ways through for either. Taking further than that simply isn't worth the work, as the cutoff of the Dnieper would be.

If you mean Transinistra then yeah it would be, but that's why NATO takes over that, since he's not past the river yet so why bother even asking for what he can't aleady take without natural boundaries?

>>513317567
What would be the point of a strong and independent Ukraine continuing to fight this lost war? Of course they are weak, dependent slaves so the question is irrelevant.

>>513324219
We have 7% muslims and you have 20% beaners. You could have googled this before embarassing yourself

>>513317450 (OP)
What about reparations?
How does Ukraine plan to pay them? Land doesn't really cover it.

>>513317450 (OP)
Holohoax is the holohoax 3 starvation in the ussr admitted and execute chabad

>>513321677
Russia, in destroying jewkraine, gains the same thing the zognited states gained in destroying syria.

>>513325169
What Americans (the citizens) want and what America (the government) wants are not always the same.
My government is a combination of people who see the war as an opportunity to profit off of military companies and people who never got over the cold war.
Among citizenry, there are partisans (their position largely depends on whether they get good boy points to oppose/support something), people who have an actual moral position (but are unlikely to be the ones who actually suffer for that moral position), and people who see that this conflict is on the opposite side of the earth and want nothing to do with it.

>>513323315
lmao, this is just the first round of negotiations. if zelensky spergs out and loses Trump's support, this deal will look great in a year or two.

you can go back to sucking off faggots btw.

>>513326588
in that comment I was talking about transnistria.

Now that you mention the Dnieper being the best defensive line, it might be true, that they should put the main line behind there. Beyond that is just farmland and a few little villages, but for the security of their coast line they should still aim to get that little piece. For example the port of Mykolaiv (where a sunken Ukrainian warship lies) would be blocked by a single gun in case of hostility.

I found a convenient irrigation channel on google maps. It is 90m wide, they would only have to extend it a little bit to the ocean.

>>513317450 (OP)
Why doesn't anybody pulled the Uruguayan solution?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisplatine_War
>Argentina and Brazil fights for Cisplatina
>Stalemate, everybody is exausted
Suddently Britain comes with Uruguayan solution
>Brand new country: Uruguay
>War stops, everybody loses
>Peter I of Brazil abdicates, goes to Portugal to become Peter IV, abdicates again. Brazil has a 10-year civil war
>Argentina gets a 20-year civil war

>>513317450 (OP)
Odd the media said it was much more. Land. It was bad enough zelensky would fly off the handle so his watchers had to come with him.

No matter the outcome, Putin can just ship Russians over the border to settle the empty lands after the war ends. Ukraine is in no position to refuse immigrants.