Thread 514119299

I'm starting to realise that most socialists have no idea how the financial system works. They're like ideal golems, fake resistance with no practical alternative to the central bank IMF Blackrock and Wall Street cartel beyond a classless society that never comes.

>>514119299 (OP)
>you have to have a deep understanding of the 10,000 layers of makebelieve bullshit used to justify our economic slavery in order to be opposed to it
I realized years ago that capitalist cheerleaders (note: you're not actually a "capitalist" unless you own capital) are insufferable midwits who think they're geniuses.

>>514119299 (OP)
>how the financial system works
1. You work.
2. Jews, women, boomers and niggers take over 50% of what you make.

>>514119299 (OP)
Socialists love Blackrock and the WEF. What have you been smoking?

>>514119299 (OP)
Hen why are you defending soaring housing prices which are having dramatic effects on cultures all over the world. That includes low birth rates, living with same sexes to save money, and on.

>>514119580
We don’t like them.

>>514119671
>We
most brownoid-simping socialists would refuse to let you speak for them

>>514120800
I don’t call them socialists if they are capitalists.

>>514119299 (OP)
https://youtu.be/PVWun9jfSac

>sorry bro, you can't have protectionism for your nation's populace and labor
>you have to accept the endless millions of 3rd world migrants because it makes gdp line go up
>can't let your wages get too high!
>oh and you also must affirm trannies and fag buttsex because those create new markets for capital as well as reinforce liberal democracy
Anyone against some degree of national socialism, in the form of protectionism at least can be easily identified as an enemy of your nation's populace.
Libertarians, progressives, and unfettered capitalists all act against your interests if you value having a safe and prosperous life for your children.
The free market absent controls is the biggest scam that shitters like Friedman actually sold to people.
"You're scamming the consumer out of 20 cents by not letting M'guba and Boujunga work in your nation."

Workers owning the means of production is kinda of like having stock offering I suppose, or a co-op.

>>514119299 (OP)
Hitler had it figured out.

>>514122323
China has an oligarchy of billionaire ceos.

>>514119299 (OP)
Even the so called experts really don’t understand how it is western countries are able to sustain huge trade deficits.

>>514119299 (OP)
Who cares about replacing the old system with anything? Just kill the old system and everyone who designed.

>>514121741
National Capitalism is the only way forward. The nation's capital should serve the people. What we have now is Global Capitalism, where capitalism only serves itself. The fact that there was no legislation punishing moving factories overseas just to sell the products back to Americans is the issue.

>>514123102
That's one issue, but unless we establish clear rules like
>you shall not import a foreign labor force
>you shall not offshore operations
>you shall be tariffed heavily if you want access to the largest market while not operating domestically
>raw materials shall not be tariffed, but finished products or parts will be
We also need to rollback a lot of enlightenment and liberal democracy presumptions.

>>514119299 (OP)
Socialism is literally just the idea that we all pay a little into the system and use that pool to provide basic services to people so society functions, the vulnerable are protected, and abuses of capital are thwarted. Literally a fire department is a socialist institution, and no society has ever functioned that was 100% free market.

Moreover, what we currently have in the US is a system designed to benefit capital holders at the expense of non-capital holders—corporations are subsidized, taxes are regressive, and freedom of speech has been replaced by the freedom to squash the speech of the poor with your money.

This narrative that socialists are dumb is one of the most toxic things produced by neoconservatism—second only to the idea that Israel is our greatest ally.

Bear in mind that Milton Friedman was Jewish. Meanwhile, Adam smith, a non-Jew and the father of modern capitalism literally said the following:

“It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.”

“ People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.”

“ No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable.”

>>514123102
We don’t really have global capitalism either because most countries have huge tariffs and 30% of the world is under U.S. sanctions. So in a way what we really already have is this idea of national capitalism that you’re talking about. We haven’t had tru free market capitalism since the 1920’s and in the 1990’s we took it a step further with sanctions and tariffs.

>>514123706
Taxes aren't socialism, tankie. The problem with socialists is they do TARGET idiots with talking points like this. "Want a fire department? That's socialism, dude!"

>>514123793
Fair. We do need civil controls as well, it can't just be money for the sake of money and country. The people's culture have to matter too.

>>514123880
A lot of people associate socialism with communism. I’m of the belief that socialism doesn’t really work in a multicultural and multiethnic state because there is always a group paying more in and another group always taking more out. It really only works longterm in a racially homogenous state.

>>514123880
Socialism is a sliding scale, retard. Complete free free market capitalism implies no use of taxation. Complete socialism implies full blown communism. Where a society falls on that scale will depend on culture and context (including racial). For example, high levels of socialism will not work on the US because it is too diverse both culturally and racially. But no socialism at all is not a functioning society. Your brain is fried.

>>514124124
>there is always a group paying more in and another group always taking more out. It really only works longterm in a racially homogenous state.
That is true regardless of the composition of the society, but in homogeneous society it's harder to tell and harder to craft laws that exclude the others

This topic is pointless because the religiotards just associate social policy with atheism so they would rather just be submissive under a "lord."

>>514120980
Well, sadly, there's more of those kinds of socialists with more political power than the true scotsmen.

>>514124206
Communism is literally defined by itself - commune-ism. No one is fucking advocating for workers communes ala Paris 1848 or the soviet councils ffs. Like I said, dumbfuck man worshipping religious faggots just screech about "socialism/communism" when they get a whiff of atheism.

>>514124124
Socialism is just a jumping off point for communism.
>>514124206
Proves it as much by saying "Socialism IS taxes, Socialism IS society!" Now if I'm against this idea of socialism, I'm against the foundation of society funded through taxes itself apparently, which is complete hogwash. Socialists are lying rats who twist words until you say "Yes socialism is good, I love socialism! We just need a tiny bit of socialism to fix things."

>>514123793
Internationally, yes. But intra-nationally, the spoils of trade go to the few real capital holders within the US. This is basically the idea behind globalism.

>>514119460
>>you have to have a deep understanding of the 10,000 layers of makebelieve bullshit used to justify our economic slavery in order to be opposed to it
lolololol
this was good

>>514124415
I never said this. Your brain is fried. I literally and taking away the binary for socialism. It’s a sliding scale. It’s neither “good” nor “bad” because it’s not a yes/no. It’s like demanding to know whether water is good or bad. No water is not going to work. Flooding your house is also not going to work. Amazing how fried your brain is. Do a self assessment, please. And then take another look at the quotes by Adam smith and compare them with Milton Friedman (the Jew).

>>514123102
It serves the families that own the companies and Banks, and that's it. The business structure of the corporate workplace is a dictatorship of CEO's, how do you have a democracy when the workplace is anti-democratic.

>>514124206
America is a heavily socialist country.

>>514119299 (OP)
in reality most people don't know how that system works
if they knew, they would revolt, because it's designed to keep rich perpetually rich and keep middle class impotent

>>514124646
No, you equate taxes with socialism. You actually think having a fire department is a socialist idea. And you think this makes you intelligent? I refuse to play your game. I'm saying you are wrong at the very root of your understanding. Taxes for services != socialism.

>>514124415
COMMUNE-ism fucker. NO ONE is promoting hippy kibbutz bullshit. Socialism is just a social ethic, that the goal should be the best outcome for the society. Capitalists believe that pursuit of growing a capital investment creates good for a society, but the proliferation of drug kingpins, pornographers, and assorted scammers like supplement sellers proves that ethic is completely wrong.

>>514124802
No it's REGULATION that is relevant. Maybe the bank would have better ROI if it their loan to Jerome could be better paid back by getting people addicted to opioids, but the socialist ethic is that the social environment is more important than the profit.

>>514124802
I don’t have time for your word games. Communism is 100% taxation—state owns and distributes all capital. Anarchy is no central state. Socialism is a continuous variable. 100% = communism, 0% = anarchy.

The people who rage against socialism are the ones who don’t understand what they are talking about. Any attempt at having the state apply taxes for the social benefit of the people is labeled “socialism” which is then conflated with communism, and then shut down because “we all know communism failed”. Yes, there are commies who also abuse the term socialism. But I’m not talking to that shade or retard right now, am I?

I have learned Socialism means whatever you think it means, because people don't understand how to define it. Most people think it means social programs, this is incorrect,. They also believe Scandinavian countries are socialist which is is also incorrect, social democrats are not socialist.

>>514124960
>Caring about your neighbor is socialism
See what I mean? Lying fucking rats who attribute human compassion with SOCIALISM. Everything good in the world is actually just socialism. Being against socialism is being against goodness itself!

>>514125085
Socialist rats get steamed when their little word games don't work. Go try it on some high schoolers or something, retard.

>>514125085
>communism is central state regulates all
>anarchy is no state.

Communism, famously, is achieved only when the state withers away.

>>514125111
>neighbor
It's self interests, using social powers of the state to regulate what is best for a broad set of people instead of a small clique of bankers. Clearly the trillion dollars a year spent on the USA military is socialism, right? Do all those Podunk towns that need military spending to survive count as free market examples? Of course not, they benefit from a broad social belief that military strength is a good thing.

>>514125470
You’re arguing with an actual retarded person, anon.

>>514125470
>Clearly the trillion dollars a year spent on the USA military is socialism, right?
Me: Taxing and spending isn't socialism
You: Ah, but we can agree that when people are taxed and then that money is spent, that would be socialism, right?
Gradually, I began to hate them.

>>514119299 (OP)
The powers that be have a new system that has been in the development for decades now, ready to be rolled out in the coming years. It will operate in parallel starting sometime this year and by the next decade it will be fully operational as the Agenda 2030 goals are slowly being implemented.
There will be no collapse, no violence, no uprising, no world war, no revolution, no killing of jews or politicians or other such fantasies. Instead there will be law & order, compliance and total surveillance until the very end. AI will be at the center of it all.

The Great Reset is inevitable.

>>514119299 (OP)
You say this, them I guarantee you're the kinda dumbass who says shit like "bro just delete the debt, it's made up, it's not real"

>>514124259
But homogeneous societies has never existed. Even if all the same racial group, there are religious division. If no religious divisions, some of the population will be faggots or other deviants. Nazi Germany couldn't even carry out execution of Down's retards because the Catholics were too upset.

>>514119299 (OP)
You realize 99.9% of all economics is fake, and the 0.1% that's real is mostly justification for the fake stuff, right? Like if all the money in the world was in a bucket, a fraction of one percent goes towards paying for things, and the rest exists only to pay dividends or ursury.

>>514119299 (OP)
anon they don't even know what fiat currency means

>>514125359
There is a horseshoe idea here, yes. 100% state sort of implies we are all some big ant colony. And an ant colony is sort of like one single thing, rather than a state + a people. At the edges of concepts strange and seemingly inconsistent things happen.

>>514119299 (OP)
i tell you how the financial system works retard
>you work like a slave 8-10 hours a day 5 days a week and the Government take between 25% and 45% of your salary to give it to Megacorporations, women, bankers, boomers and endless wars
>they create money out of thin air to bail out banks or start a new war but you can starve to death
the current system deserve only one thing, a nuke

>>514119299 (OP)
I bet you use GDP as a primary indicator of a nations well-being.

>>514119299 (OP)
It could also be that they know exactly how they work, and they know once corporations have wvery last cent everything will implode because they will own all the houses and charge you rent and they will own all the farms and charge you for food and own all the trees and charge you to breathe but they wont give you a job cause a robot works for free.

>>514119299 (OP)
>the financial system works how the billionaire conmen says it does
Good cattle.
I guess China will just go on "losing" then.

>>514125599
>taxed
What is deficit spending, but I clearly said that the socialism was the rationale for the tax and spend. There is a socialist belief in a strong military. How that's implemented is through state spending. I already gave the example of regulation which you ignored.

>>514125724
That's not a horseshoe conception. That's the actual definition given by marx, and supported by decades of socialist theory.

You, simply, don't know what you're talking about.

>>514119299 (OP)
man i'm sure if they put you in charge you would clean house if only they gave you a chance man

Socialist are armchair social commentators, they have virtually no idea how anything works. People like marx were popular because their asspulled nonsense made the most sense. They've never come up with anything good and outside of europe which was undeveloped socially they just turn into criminal syndicates

>>514125674
It’s easier to have the social trust necessary to construct effective social systems with racial homogeneity. It doesn’t guarantee it, and people will find reasons to not trust their neighbor. But it’s not black and white.

I’m genuinely confused why everyone becomes a black and white thinker as soon as the topic of economics comes up. It’s the most grey area subject out there.

>>514125812
The "Socialist" party is full of jews, women, trannies, and fags. That speaks for itself.

>>514119299 (OP)
Taxes funds families. What's hard to understand about European national socialist welfare states? Just you're all childless garbage so you don't like brown people having babies and using all the benefits.

>>514125830
The fact that I can couch Marx’s ideas using modern concepts doesn’t mean I don’t understand it. In the contrary, I do. The state in Marxist thought is a scaffolding that is removed when true communism is reached. Pre-mold = anarchy. Mold = ramping up the socialism to 100%. Post-mold = the final state Marx envisioned for communism.

Obviously I’m not a Marxist, because I am able to see his argument from different angles. Communism is essentially an ant colony in which each ant is equivalent. Humans are not ants.

>>514119299 (OP)
Same here.
Our socialists started taxing wealth a few years ago.
This wealth-tax is forcing people with capital, and entrepreneurs, out of the country.
This reduces the amount of wealth the socialists can redistribute.
Meaning: In their crusade against the rich and wealthy, they end up costing the poor more, because now there's less tax money around. Socialists are willing to throw the poor under the bus just to fuck over the rich.

They think welfare money grows on trees.

>>514125922
Under what definition of race? Because most 19th Century racists like Gobineau believing in multiple races within the same country, with his country of France being Frankish Germanic elite and Celtic-Romano peasants. Similar descriptions at the time were made of the UK. The type of racial uniformity you're talking about only is found in he Southern USA or South Africa where all non-blacks were identified as white, but clearly those were still mixed societies using black labor.

>>514126139
Taxes lower birth rates

>>514119460
You have to understand finance to have realistic solutions because we don't live in post-scarcity Star Trek world. Instead you keep spouting retarded shit like tax the rich, infinite money printing, infinite minimum wage.

>>514126348
"uhh just give the homeless some of the empty homes, sweetie"

>>514126221
Genetic closeness. Southern US and South Africa are famously racially heterogeneous, not homogeneous.

>>514126106
They think is a better society is to empower those groups by things like laws preventing faggot discrimination. The right wing socialist ethic is to get the state to prevent a nigger from aborting its own unwanted gene replication and to force faggotry to be a hidden characteristic blended among the straight majority. I myself like having niglets aborted and faggots self-segregate but don't want to fund single mothers so neither side appeals to me.

>>514123706
Socialism was invented by the English as a way to tax the population beyond their means to support themselves.
>take everything you can from the underclass
>give them back just enough to live on a case by case
That's literally all it ever was.

>>514126584
Perhaps funding single moms is just a pragmatic choice to make while we wait for the long term effects of increased abortions to take hold.

>>514126709
You are confusing actual concepts with conflations used by propagandists to enrich themselves.

>>514126842
The actual concepts were proposed by agents of the state to justify what they did, not the other way around.

>>514126977
This is like the people who claim all slavery was done by jews. Whites are not just passive observers of their own history. There were indeed active efforts to improve white societies, which is why they're better than countries populated by less dynamic races. Even in 2016 it was niggers who doomed Bernie Sanders.

>>514126842
Maybe, but the problem is that the state is made up of people. Human nature kicks in. Even socialists themselves will confuse the concept. And they often do. Especially when they work in the government. Government runs on tax money. More socialism = more tax money. More tax money = more money for the socialists.

I'm not anti socialism, and i think we need some of it. The problem is that it's a golem that always wants more. Just like capitalism needs regulation, Socialism needs constraints in order to not run amok.

>>514126348
That's not socialism. That's what socdem libtards, who call themselves democratic socialists, think socialism is. Socialism is the establishment of worker ownership over the means of production, and on a broader scale, an abolition of the commodity distribution of essential goods. You do not need a welfare state for this at all, or higher taxes; most of this is just the establishment of national worker cooperatives.

Seize the means, nigger!

>>514127297
You don't know what socialism is. See: >>514127485

>>514127485
>>514127543
True communism is a central bank that controls everything. We already live in a pseudo communist state

>>514127543
You don't know what socialism is.

>>514127666
>true communism is a central bank that controls everything
We weren't talking about communism, for starters, we were talking about socialism; and high phase communism was posited to be a fully stateless, classless, and moneyless society of abundant resources free at point of access for all. This is why communism is retarded.

>>514127806
Communism is no different than the status quo only the communists are in control. It's a spook

the enemy is the bank, marx wanted control of it. If a communist wants control of something you know it's evil

>>514127485
Karl Marx was an English sock puppet who promulgated insane shit that would never work to undermine continental powers.

>>514127736
No, YOU don't know what socialism is. Socialism is not a welfare state paid for by high taxes, it's a mode of production and distribution. It is fundamentally incompatible with capitalism because one cannot consider their nation socialist until all privately owned production and distribution has ceased.

Capitalism = private ownership over the means of production and distribution, for the purpose of capital accumulation
Socialism = social ownership over the means of production and distribution, for the purpose of worker equability
Communism = communal ownership over the means of production and distribution, for the purpose of societal equability

>>514127989
that's just how incoherent the continental left/jews are

look at modern politics and tell me it's not the work of jews and retarded europoors

>>514127890
>the enemy is the bank, marx wanted control of it.
You're spouting schizo nonsense that never happened. Marx said that in socialist transitional period, the working class (not the communist party, it was vladimir lenin who believed all power needed to be vested in the communist party) needs to seize the bank and its assets to create a more equable distribution.
he advocated for the abolition of all banking, credit, and currency itself, in the communist stage.
>>514127989
socialism was a popular tendency in england, germany, and france long before marx. his only contribution was communist theory.

>>514127989
Complete bullshit. Marx wasn't just some book character, he actually identified the Paris Commune as what he was envisioning. All of the royalist peasant descended genetic shit backing a return of the kings were not the same side.

>>514128213
Marx wanted the english central bank to launch a global revolution and remake the world as he saw fit. He was nothing but a typical dictator

>>514128337
He never said any of that lmao. You need to start citing quotations from Marx because I have read Marx's catalog and that is not at all what he said.
What schizo youtuber did you hear that from?

>>514128025
So to you the 1970s UK would be called socialist because the railroads and utilities were nationalized? That's fine, that's what a lot of people identifying as socialist want. Rather than handing out contracts to cronies of the politicians, the state should directly manage what it's trying to provide as a service. The difference between prison contractors and a department of prisons.

>>514128441
What's socialism again? oh right it's taking over a state's central bank and using it to enrich yourself

>>514128213
Yes but I was replying to an expressly Marxist comment.

As you can see here 90% of socialists think Marxism has a monopoly on the term.

>>514127989
Marx never promulgated anything that resembled an economic system. His writings were entirely critiques of the economic systems he lived with, and if you weren't an uneducated midwit you would recognize that he had some valuable insights. You don't though, because you've never read Marx and conflate any engagement with his ideas as complete and utter submission to them like the sub 90 IQ, nuance-free animal that you are

>>514128545
It's because lower IQ people tend to be religious so just associate anything socialist/communist as atheist. They're not even wrong, since obviously getting people to stop believing in superstition should be a social goal.

>>514128025
it doesn't matter how you define it. What matters is how people who call themselves Socialists define it.
Also there's a 100% chance there's another faggot out there just like you who would happily argue about what the TRUE definition of socialism is. I just happen to know it's pointless. You have to talk to people in their language if you want communication.

>>514128233
No, he was an unemployed Rothschild cousin who took money from crown handlers.

Let's get this straight for those of you in the thread who don't read:
>both anarchism and socialism were common tendencies across europe before marx was even alive and in diapers, that was the classical european left
>marx's only contributions to leftism were dialectical/historical materialism and communist theory
>dialectical materialism being a synthesis of feuerbach's materialism and hegel's dialectical method, historical materialism being the application of that synthesis to historical analysis
>communist theory being marx's conclusion from his historical materialist method
>marx advocated for a stateless, classless, moneyless global society, an international people with communal ownership over production and distribution

>>514128795
I think eurotards were just that dumb, hence the rise of fascism

>>514128545
>just seize the means of production
>that's not economic

>>514128795
Again, HE IDENTIFIED the 1871 Paris COMMUNE as what he was advocating. If you think contemporary royalist bankers were in agreement you're insane.

>>514128890
Socialism was redefined multiple times, marx hated socialists that came before him, and marxists after him revised what he said as it fit them

socialism doesn't mean anything, it's just exchanging one ruler for a worse one

>>514128508
See, you're closer on that one. This is why there are communists who believe in skipping over socialism and jumping straight to stateless, classless, moneyless society. They're called anarcho-communists, and they're particularly retarded.
>>514128491
Yes, that is actually socialism. Nationalization is a form of socialization, and socialization of production and distribution is socialism. However, you cannot call it a "socialist society" without a totality of socialized production and distribution.

Mind you, nationalization is only one form of socialization, although it is the most historically common one. Another form of socialization is worker cooperativity, worker ownership.

In a proper socialist society, all essential goods and services would be nationalized, and all the rest of the economy would be worker owned.

>>514128751
Empirically stupid people have worse outcomes when they stop believing in superstition. Superstitions were crafted by very smart people over thousands of years to help retards larp as productive members of society. Attempts to replace it with facts and logic have created retrograde barbarism not seen in white people since Roman times.

>>514129137
Anybody that identifies as a socialist or a communist is retarded

>>514128902
Do you expect me to respond to this completely predictable double digit IQ response as if you had say anything of substance?

>>514119299 (OP)
Mercantile capitalism was created and perfected by Phoenicians before hebrew or judah existed. It took 3000 years and passed through two genocides before it was able to become powerful enough to create the steps to their financial dominance, through the first stock exchanges and banks of the late renaissance era. These fiscal tools gave mercantile jews the ability to build fraternal organizations that would supplant the old European guild network, and provide a channel for the Illuminati, all to create the foundation for their New World Order - their new Babylon - which would overthrow the Old World Order of divine right monarchies maintained by royal bloodlines.
>tl;dr still the jews, every damn time

>>514129011
Socialism is used as an alternative to capitalism. Social-ism vs. capital-ism. What's more important, the broader society or growing capital? This is why modern people use the example of firefighting as socialism. There used to be people who used their accumulated capital to open private fire fighting services. Socialist do not believe that would ever spread to meet the entire societal need for fighting fires.

>>514129176
No, socialism is good. All essential goods and services should be nationalized and the rest of the economy should be democratically owned by workers, a market of cooperative businesses.

>>514129295
Again it's all about the central bank

Whigs created central banks for war and to enrich themselves, marxists want control of this, they wont tell you this but this is all they want

>>514128955
The English crown absolutely wanted people on the continent to believe that. It kept their leaders from growing powerful and denting England's bottom line. The problem with psychological warfare is you can't contain it.

>>514129404
Marxist here, I don't want that. I want all banking to be a series of coexisting worker-owned credit unions, not touched by the state. National industries should be shit like housing, water, electric, etc.

>>514129514
That's why all communists are useful idiots, you don't realize you're a tool

>>514129196
At least post a smug anime face if you're going to come back with something this weak.

>>514119460
Capitalism is the placing of capital at the head of our society, Marxism does that too and only really disagrees on distribution and access. Most of the problems of the civilized man come from the groups willingness to support objects and systems at the expense of people, funny because both systems were originally devised with the idea that they would minimise human suffering over time.
Means of production is just another term for capital.

>>514129559
I'm not a tool. This is what most contemporary Marxists want. Marxism-Leninism is a minority of the left now, they're just very vocal. Y'know, tankies, they never shut the fuck up.
The DSA is the largest Marxist organization in the U.S. (100,000+ members) and they advocate for a libertarian state.

>>514129687
Capitalism was invented by marx to explain england's role on the world state with its central bank

>>514129230
>divine right monarchies
Imagine a group of men selecting a leader and some fucker says he should rule because some magical force he can't explain that no one can see gave him the authority. Anyone going along with that would have the be the stupidest monkey brain idiots imaginable.

>>514124802
>Taxes for services != socialism.

The taxes are taken out of one massive pot (IRS tax collection) and they are put into another massive pot (government’s bank account). The amount taken is invisible to other’s eyes. How it will be used specifically is likewise invisible to all. There is almost no consistency to the amount taken… not even “a richer person pays more”.

There are ten million tax loopholes only available by accountant.

You have absolutely no way of knowing if every dollar you ever earned went to some random Jew. No way of knowing.

If you even so much as think about not paying the taxes you can enjoy prison. If you tell others not to pay their taxes you can enjoy prison.

Really waiting for you retards to come up with a false distinction for how that’s different from socialism…

The socialists would force you to give up money? Ok well the government forces you to give up money… and yeah prison counts as the threat of violence.

>>514129712
It doesn't matter what marxists want because you wont get it, you will have your fake state stolen from you and then flee to the US and cry about Stalin being mean

Any of you people who think it's all about central take over of everything, are referring to a specific tendency, Marxism-Leninism. Those things you're talking about were Vladimir Lenin's ideas, which the left has largely abandoned at this point for being authoritarian garbage, but Leninism was the biggest tendency of the left in the 20th century so the reputation does exist for a reason I suppose.

>>514119299 (OP)
CAPITALISM IS THE BEST

>>514119299 (OP)
COMMUNISM IS THE WORST

>>514119299 (OP)
You’re a slave

>>514129852
Communism was always a lie and Bolshevism was the bare naked truth

>>514129802
Explain the process then. You've spent the entire thread just saying shit,
>WORDS WORDS WORDS
that's all, dude. You never explain yourself, drops citations, NADA. This is all bad faith, my friendly.

Please, explain to me the process, how would that work?

>>514129932
Those are tankie words, brother. Watch yourself.

>>514129859
Capitalism is why all women are whores now. Capital has an amazing ROI exploiting sexual relationships though prostitution and porn. Similar dynamic with drugs. 17,000% markup is smart capitalism.

>>514129791
Socialists won't let me call socialism gay and retarded plus they think they're saints. I prefer a crook who says he's a crook as he's robbing me than a crook who says he's a saint doing it for my benefit and I should be grateful. Capitalism is the unmasked, disgusting face of mankind put to work. Socialism is power hungry retards banking on other retards who think they can vote in a utopia.

>>514129993
Modern empires are run by central banks, marx couldn't initiate global revolution without them

>>514130079
Marx never tried to initiate a revolution once. Try again, kid.

>>514130390
So he was a complete poser?

>>514129791
Socialism is social ownership over production and distribution. Please, read. Anything, read ANYTHING. YouTube isn't a good source of education on any subject. You are a sub 90 IQ nigger.
>>514130072
You have no idea what you are talking about lmao.

>>514129571
You're not deflecting from you complete lack of argument and then projecting it onto me when I shit on you for said lack of argument, as much as you want that to work

>>514130510
I would say so, yeah. He was a philosopher and economist, not a revolutionary. He was a fat dude who sat up in libraries reading and writing for weeks on end while ignoring his wife and kids. That's it.

>>514119299 (OP)
>I'm starting to realise that most socialists have no idea how the financial system works
lmao ORLY?

>>514129802
The people who complain about socialism are the 'intelligensia" like authors and professors because they are forced into more socially needed roles. In capitalism, some of the smartest people are involved in effectively useless bullshit like using the law to figure out the best way to maximize ROI. The private equity group that owns Arby's and Subway hired some white guy with a Phd in mechanical engineering to figure out the best way to optimize their revenue schemes. That white genius should be put to be utilitarian use than enriching kikes.

>>514130601
Meanwhile we've got people like thomas jefferson which actually preached and practiced revolution and statecraft

>>514130059
Money printing and artificial wage scale is why women can afford to act like whores. If you do that in a capitalist system you wind up homeless.

>>514129514
>I want all banking to be a series of coexisting worker-owned credit unions, not touched by the state
This is one of the stupidest ideas I’ve ever heard. How would credit unions manage to actually secure their credit without state backing? This would lead to hyper-fractional reserves and it would crash and burn on the first bank run. This kind of shit only works for personal finance and microcredit.

>>514119299 (OP)
1pbtid
australian
bait

>>514130528
You haven't made an argument you stupid nigger. Everything you do is economic. You can't take action in the real world without economic consequences. Refusing to acknowledge the economic consequences of your retard philosophy doesn't negate them.

>>514130665
I don't disagree, friend. This is why throughout the 20th century, most Marxists were not Marxist exclusively, but Marxist-Leninist, which is the synthesis of Marx's ideas with Vladimir Lenin's ideas.

Marx didn't advocate for shit in regard to central banking, that fat nerd hated money's existence. He was also racist to niggers and kikes, funnily enough. Karl Marx was a good idea guy, but he was a total fucking poser for sure.

It was Vladimir Lenin that actually preached and practiced both revolution and statecraft. Lenin wrote books about how to achieve socialist and communist revolution, and he's the guy who founded the Soviet Union. He was a fucking authoritarian monster who stained the communist movement for the entirety of the 20th century, though. He DID advocate for takeover by central banks. He was also a jew.

Most Marxists have abandoned Leninism at this point for being bullshit. We model our statecraft after Syndicalists now.

>>514129732
I don't know the secret thoughts of Marx or Adam Smith but capitalism was convincing to people because it sounded like it would make food and goods cheaper and more abundant and so the common person would be richer, Marxism made it sound like it would put more wealth in the hands of the common person. Unfortunately neither are true because it's too easy for parasites to take advantage of the system.

>>514130774
>This is one of the stupidest ideas I’ve ever heard. How would credit unions manage to actually secure their credit without state backing?
They would be backed by the local democratic economic council, not the national state.

>>514131051
Smith advocated capitalism as long as you're the one controlling the world, which is his perspective

>>514130901
>of your retard philosophy
Not my philosophy. I'm not a communist or Marxist. Just as I explained, you're too stupid to be able to interact with a viewpoint without completely assuming it or assuming somebody else has that has knowledge of it has completely assumed it. You walked right into that without a care in the world you fucking retard.
No other part of your post has any semblance of relevance to any of my previous posts. You seem to think stating that everything is economic has any bearing on my statement that Marx's works are a critique and not a codified economic system, which it still isn't. Not that you'd know, because it's probably been years since you've picked up any book at all

>>514119299 (OP)
nothin wrong with national socialism bruv

>>514130601
Marx was part of the first two internationals and had a huge influence on the organization of unionist movements in the late 19th century. What are you talking about?

>>514131530
Is that why the jews couped germany and russia with their unions?

>>514130666
Satanic bullshit. In any system were capital is accumulated and then can be used for other purposes, whores will thrive. If every client donates one seashell then she gets enough seashells to act as collateral to barter for something else. The socialist says why not put the woman in a social role that isn't just sucking dick. The criticism of that system that once she's placed for example in an accounting role, because the system is controlled her upward mobility might be decided by a Harvey Weinstein type that requires her to do whore behaviors again. That's why modern socialists advocate for democracy also, to be able to replace the decision makers if they become corrupt. The degree to which that's viable given human nature and intelligence limits is contentious.

>>514131132
That doesn’t answer the question. If you need 500 currencies in credit for developing a region, but the collective wealth of the workers deposited in the bank only amounts to 600, how would you make the credit happen? Would you hyper leverage the reserves or simply not offer the credit to stimulate the development?

>>514131530
He never attempted a revolt. His influence was largely through his work. He spent a decade writing capital vol. 1
his daughter hardly knew him for a while there
he would organize but it was as nonviolent and he party hopped a lot over small disagreements
he was a poser

>>514129145
That's what religious people should do, take the philosophical parts of their religion that have utility and make a concise set of best practices using modern rationale. Opposing homosexuals because some text describes that as part of ancient Jewish law isn't really as useful as providing the health reasons for why faggotry is dangerous.

Even worse than that, socialists actually support central banks because they have identified anti-banker sentiment as rightwing/libertarian...

>>514131816
i misunderstood your question, sorry, spanish ESL here xd: most modern Marxists believe in the full abolition of credit. I used "credit union" as shorthand for "member owned / worker owned", i didnt mean actual "credit union"
credit is commodity in its worst form, and socialism requires abolition of commodity form for essentials, currency would be essential

>>514131605
The jews took part of the coups because they were a persecuted minority who would support anyone who would give them material benefit. After the russian revolution was over, they quickly tried to seize power but were ousted by Stalin’s faction. Just look at the ethnic composition of the politburo through the 1920s. The only jew who remained in the soviet government after the initial period was Kaganovich.

>>514132020
because they know the money train stops and shit gets real real fast if the banks go

communists propping up the west so they keep getting gibs

currency itself cannot reproduce (save for being used as capital which would no longer exist), ergo it is not commodifiable. credit reproduces through interest rates, making it a commodification of currency itself. that has to go away.

>>514132198
I'd persecute jews too

The goal of socialist society is to rid society of any economic functions that serve as self-reproducing value for individuals. That is how disparity begins.
No capital, no credit, etc.

>>514126348
I dont think the guy you're responding to did that.

I'm not in favor of welfare, even as a socialist, because I believe that all forms of passive income must go. From each according to his ability to each according to his work.

>>514131851
Because there weren’t any conditions for a revolution. And what do you do when it’s impossible to launch a revolution? You organize the working class. The bolsheviks and proto-bolsheviks spent 2 decades organizing the working class before they had their chance.
>>514132098
So, the answer is to just be perpetually underdeveloped because you need you can’t strategically reallocate capital in the form of credit as it goes against your weird dogmatic libertarian ideology, always relying local means of production that might or might not be available to do shit. Got it.

>>514132355
Which is why the socialism brand has problems because we're way past the Enlightenment philosophy of universal equality with modern knowledge of genetics. To be really modern what socialism would need to do is address how to manage different tiers of IQ present in society. Do we want the intelligent to be constantly exploiting the dumb through scams? If not, how do you force the most intelligent people to work on behalf of everyone? Some would say that National Socialism would serve this purpose and Hitler even described being in a constant state of low-level war to keep the nation sharp. But even in that system, the Austrian corporal overrode the genius generals under his command, and he had that command through widespread popular support.

>>514126348
But because there is devalued currency and fiat, the taxation is really just moving around numbers for accounting purposes. If every billionaire had half their wealth taxed by the state, no change in lifestyle would occur, but the monkey-brain humans don't like being dissed with taxes.

>>514133074
people don't realize that the modern billionaire borrows all their money from banks and they don't actually own things they're making payments on. Payments they udually don't finish on luxury items

the billionaire lives the same way the EBT welfare niggers lives, with free money and credit

>>514132749
Yes, because at this stage in development, we don't need any more fucking development. You god damn technocrat tankie. Local communities can manage their own economics. The communities can come together at a national level to figure out a central plan for essentials like housing, electricity, water, food, etc.

>>514131741
Whores will always exist but the vast majority of women won't choose to be whores in a hard money system because it's a lot easier to marry money. When it's a controlled system whoredom is 100% guaranteed because the system naturally selects the worst candidates for leadership.

>>514132876
Listen man. I'm not opposed to national socialism, whatsoever. I'm a libertarian national socialist. I just think socialism should not be state-driven, that has proven historically dangerous.
The state can certainly be there to serve as a central planning force for essentials, and serve militaristic purposes. We need the government to kick niggers out.
But I don't want it reaching further than that. Paws off local economies.

i believe in europe being a continent of white-only libertarian national socialist states, and I want those states to be in an international socialist union for white european libertarian national socialist nations only.

I support our continued economic exploitation of the global south because I hate niggers.

>>514133849
EU NATO and UN already exist. Face it, the modern system is basically communism. We need less communism

>>514132003
Most Western churches have been subverted by Jews or the English. Also retards need things to be in the form of a story. You can't logic them into acting right. Buddhists have been fighting that impulse for 4000 years, much to their detriment.

>>514132749
>>514133402
the only reason we would need any more development is to reach communist society. and that's a retarded jewish idea, so get the fuck out of here with that. we don't need automation of labor, men need to work still to keep themselves tough and prevent humanity from entering a literal existential crisis. Our present development is fine enough.

>>514133402
>Yes, because at this stage in development, we don't need any more fucking development.
Know who else won’t think like that? All the nasty capitalist states all around you, who will probably trade embargo you the same second as you launch your revolution. They will keep expanding via debt just fine.
This is an insane suicidal ideology whose only chance of success is if the entire world starts to follow it at the exact same time.

>>514133963
Those are unions of liberal states that engage in capitalist business deals. That is not communism. What do you think communism is, dude? When the government does stuff? C'mon, man, be smarter than that.

>>514119299 (OP)
It should be becoming clear to you that there is one one group the financial system works for.

>>514134122
>This is an insane suicidal ideology whose only chance of success is if the entire world starts to follow it at the exact same time.
Trotskyites unironically believe in that exact thing happening. Trotskyites are not to be taken seriously.

No, no, see, if they trade embargo us, we fucking invade them and put their leaders at gunpoint. Diplomacy is for jews.

You want white people to die. I want you to die for wanting white people to die. It's as simple as that.

>>514134130
>he doesn't know that everything is basically the same thing and that giving the state more power doesn't solve anything

>>514133074
>taxation is really just moving around numbers for accounting purposes
It's actually for societal control. Punish this, promote that.

>>514134130
How can they be capitalist trade deals when they just trade fiat debt tokens? That's not capitalism.

>>514134353
Communism is expressly a stateless, classless, moneyless society. You're thinking of socialism.
Communism is retarded because it will never exist, not because it has anything to do with state power.

>>514134522
How is it stateless if it has a government

>>514134499
Capitalist countries using fiat currency doesn’t magically make them communism, that's how literally every modern economy works. Fiat money just means the currency isn’t backed by gold. It’s still traded in competitive markets, owned privately, and used in profit-driven systems. That’s capitalism, not communism.

>>514134626
It doesn't have a government. That's the point.
Communism is a stateless society. Karl Marx explicitly stated so time and time again.
Communist societies are anarchist.
This is why commies do the "muh not real communism" shit, because, to their credit, communism has never actually been achieved.
But they're fucking retarded because what they realized is that it will never be achieved, ever, it's a fairy tale world.

>>514134937
how is it anarchist if they want to seize industry

>>514134626
>>514134937
Socialism is what you're thinking of. Socialism is when the economy is nationalized by the state.
The Soviet Union and China practiced socialism, not communism.
USSR literally means "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics". They were governed by a communist party because the goal was to "reach communism through socialism", but that never happened because communism is a fucking fairy tale world.

If you give your economy to the state, expecting the state to just vanish is magical thinking.

>>514135010
Industry would be seized by the workers themselves, not a government. The idea would be a global network of communes, hence "communism."
A commune is a stateless, classless, moneyless community, where all production is owned by the producing workers, and all distribution is owned in common by the community. Communism is the global expansion of that idea.
20th century communists believed you could achieve communism through socialism. They were retarded for this, because their governments never went away and only became stronger with time. Socialism solidifies itself, it doesn't just magically become communism.

>>514134799
>countries using fiat currency doesn’t magically make them communism
I never said that. It just makes them not capitalist.

>>514135273
why not just advocate for pre-jew medieval monarchism then which was the same system

>>514135323
>I never said that. It just makes them not capitalist.
You literally said "the modern system is basically communism", so you implied that. And yes, they’re still capitalist. private ownership, profit motive, competitive markets. that’s capitalism, regardless of whether the money is fiat or gold-backed.

>>514134626
It's the commune aspect. Revolutionary Russia had a series of workers councils called soviets and then a supreme soviet in Petrograd. The bolshevists were so called because they were the majority, but they failed to win electoral support among the soviets so created authoritarian rule. That's why the Soviet Union basically had the same borders of the Russian Empire. When glasnost happened and the authoritarianism was relaxed, everything broke apart. Statelessness would effectively mean the lack of an identifiable ruling clique. British Lords are still the descendants of the Norman ruling group, the American upper class has a high number of colonial descendants. Creating a system where power is fluid according to the desires of the broad population has never really been achieved but is basically the broad goal of liberal politics.

>>514135495
Check the IDs again memeflag.

>>514135423
Monarchy and communism are not the same thing. They are explicitly not the same thing. Monarchy and anarchy are mutually exclusive, communist is anarchist.

The only way to achieve anarchist society is through anarchist action, but then you'll get stomped on by foreign invaders immediately, as we've seen many times with attempted communist societies. the paris commune, revolutionary catalonia, etc.

>>514135579
Respond to the sentence half of the post. Don't dodge it. Private ownership, profit incentive, competitive markets, capital accumulation, liberalism. This is capitalism.

>>514135621
If you just ignore the communist tyrants and the king for a second society operates the same under both

Interesting the things the communists promised the plebs was what they were getting under the Tsar

>>514119299 (OP)
Ehat is with this one Aussie Jew that constantly defends Wall Street? He’s not even a libertarian just some sycophant jew

>>514135748
>communist tyrants
They may have called themselves communists but they were not practicing communism. Joseph Stalin was the authoritarian leader of a socialist nation, and he actually publicly denounced communism and marxism later in life in favor of perpetual socialism because he didn't want to let go of institutional power.

That's why I've said multiple times, "communism is a fairy tale world." It's not anything to do with government. Communist societies are supposed to have completely flat structures of power and hierarchy, zero hierarchy. But that kind of society can never exist, and has never existed.

>>514119671
They do they cite WEF and McKinsey bullshit about feminism all the time

>>514135495
>private ownership, profit motive, competitive markets. that’s capitalism
Wrong. Private ownership with no property rights isn't capitalism. Profit motive with no metric to account P&L isn't capitalism. Capitalism requires hard money, property rights, and contract law. Most (all?) Western countries don't have the first 2. They have capitalism when it suits them and redistributionism when it doesn't.

Libertarian white national socialism is based and both capitalism and communism are for mentally retarded jews.

>>514135721
When you start with wrong shit it's hard to bother with the rest of your post. Still wrong.

>>514129342
Anyways, in realistic world, it will take any cooperative over 20 years to match any kind of productivity that private ownership does. And since private ownership is practiced in most places (even nationalistic hellholes), cooperatives have no chance in the competitive market.

Think US market vs Soviet Union “””market”””.

>>514135423
Feudalism was a system of agricultural lifestyle. Every political system is an attempt to adapt to the technologies of the time. Socialism and communism to some extent are relics of industrial society. Now in modern times we have these mixed economies, where the state creates whole employment systems like Education and state projects like space exploration so that someone could go their whole life without ever really participating in the accumulation of capital. Some of the 20th Century futurists like Asimov foresaw a future world where everything is geared toward some big project like space colonization that gives people a social role while avoiding idle wealth accumulation. Right now much of the results of the world's labor is just sitting in banks. Tiny countries like Andorra don't really need to exist except for wealth hoarding.

>>514136463
Whigs already did that and it's called the american system. Asimov should have done some research on the west

>>514136145
>>514136302
Now you're just redefining capitalism to mean whatever the fuck you want it to mean for the sake of your argument. Western countries have private ownership, enforce contracts, and operate profit-driven markets, that IS capitalism, even if you don’t like how they manage money or regulation. You don’t get to call it "not capitalism" just because it’s mixed with policies you disagree with. Property rights aren’t limited to land, they apply to businesses, intellectual property, financial assets, goods, and resources, all of which are traded internationally every day.
>>514136358
The productivity you refer to is largely unnecessary and an imaginary standard made up by capitalists to justify their overuse of our limited global resources. We produce nearly 2x the amount of food needed to feed our population, yet nearly a quarter of the population still faces regular food insecurity. This is a production and distribution issue. We need less production and more equable distribution of things produced.

>>514136358
During the years of communist Eastern Europe they had no migration because it was a closed labor system tied to the ethnic identity of the country. When Romania thought they needed more workers for their economy, they started a birth program that of course doesn't take effect for a generation. Meanwhile the USA just used immigrants. The Soviet population was mostly stable for five decades after WW2 while the USA population tripled. Sure the USA "won" but only if you change to the definition of America to include 100 million beaners, pajeets, and chinks.

Infinite growth does not work on a world with finite resources.

>>514136798
> resources. We produce nearly 2x the amount of food needed to feed our population, yet nearly a quarter of the population still faces regular food insecurity

That has nothing to do with productivity being a problem and more about logistics, which btw the Soviet Union’s planned economy could never satisfy ANY market demands, had far more wasteful spending and productivity than any Private ownership market and could barely pay its factory workers at all. So whatever problems you think Private ownership market has, nationalization made it worse and compounded it.

>>514136925
>The Soviet population was mostly stable for five decades after WW2 while the USA population tripled
>mostly stable

Are you actually insane? US population could afford a car in the same year where in the SU, a car was like trying to own a fucking yacht lmao.

>>514137051
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2430906/
Try again.

>>514137249
You need a car to have a commuter job where you live away from all the imported foreigners and relic foreigner niggers. It's fundamental question of what is more important, society (root of socialism) or capital in the form of accumulated goods and services.

>>514119299 (OP)
Leftists will never get it. Look at Reagonomics, one of the most successful sweeping financials changes the US has ever undergone. Rearranging the tax brackets to reduce taxes so the 30% of the top 5% that is made up of the 2.4% has benefited every single person in America. Trickle down economics is the pinnacle of modern capitalism.

>reaganomics
>successful
KEK

>>514137429
??? Planned economy has never worked for any country.

>>514137582
Its not about needing a car, its about purchasing power. The average american had the purchasing power of 20 average russians on a decent day. That’s just embarrassing.

>>514138160
Cite your source.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1646771/

>>514127989
Socialism predates Marxism. Please don't come to /pol/ with a Facebook Boomer understanding of things.

>>514119299 (OP)
I suggest the same exact society, but with several thousand well placed Freaky Friday swaps.

Take crabs from the bottom of the bucket, put them at the top, take crabs from the top of the bucket, put them at the bottom.

If the top fucks are right, they'll be at the top again, after some bootstrap tug of war or whatever the fuck they say.

If the bottom fucks were right, they'll sit at the top until they die, because maintaining power is easy, gaining it is impossible.

>>514138387
https://www.britannica.com/place/Soviet-Union/Economic-policy

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/050615/how-did-soviet-economic-system-affect-consumer-goods.asp

https://cepr.org/voxeu/columns/soviet-economy-1917-1991-its-life-and-afterlife

>>514119460

>You don't need a deep understanding of the existing system to identify the flaws and suggest a replacement

Yes, you do.

>>514138387
https://academic.oup.com/book/28460/chapter-abstract/229054563?redirectedFrom=fulltext&login=false

https://fee.org/articles/that-time-the-soviet-union-grudgingly-turned-to-free-markets-to-save-its-collapsing-economy/

>>514138608
Those papers don't account for economic development or need, they account for economic stagnation, which I do not refute. They had a stagnant market, but the Soviets got their needs met at higher rates than Americans by far.
Nutrition per capital in the Soviet Union was almost double the American nutrition per capita, rates of housed peoples were higher, and had lower infant mortality rates.

Charting economic success by the meaningless advent of plastic trinkets is a very sad byproduct of capitalist thought.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8375956/
See: better health in more equal nations.

>>514138996
>SHOW PROOF
>N-NO NOT THAT ONE

Then I’m done with this conversation, I don’t feed disingenuous shills.

>>514119552
I see no problem with this
>Signed: jews, women, boomers and niggers
Stealing 1 person blind and giving it to 4 people loses you 1 vote and earns you 4 votes.

>>514138877
War communism was Lenin realizing that communism cannot be achieved without transition first. He enacted the New Economic Plan as a social democratic short stop, then they did socialism, and were planning communism.
The material conditions have to be correct for a communist nation to exist. Marx said this nearly fuckin years ago and Lenin did not listen. Marx advocated for a transitional period, and Lenin did not listen.

This is why socialism exists. Communism in any independent nation will become war communism when foreign invaders inevitably arrive.

>>514139201
That is not what I said at all. You can't read, you dumb nigger. Allow to rephrase it for you in simpler terms, since you have only two braincells to rub together:
I didn’t reject your study outright, I pointed out that it doesn’t account for key development factors and actual economic needs. Saying that isn't being disingenuous, it's called context.
The existence of a plurality of needless market products doesn't change that the average american got only half the nutrition per capita as the average soviet.

>>514139301
None of this had anything to do with anything. Nationalized economy did not make anyone prosperous except for the war economy which is the only thing its good for, war and government needs, not consumer needs.

>>514139542
Hey, you stupid fucking retard, if you had bothered to read any of the articles, they explain how wasteful the wntire system was and how inefficient it became to the point where a nationalistic, fascist government had to get a little free market going with “Perestroika” or they were gonna fucking die.

>>514139593
"Nationalized economy did not make anyone prosperous except for the war economy which is the only thing its good for, war and government needs, not consumer needs."
Communism is stateless. That is the point. its NOT a nationalized economy. that's socialism. communism is stateless, classless, and moneyless. Marxist theory says you need socialism first to prime a nation for communism, but the goal is communism.
In the socialist period, a nationalized economy can be mixed with worker owned economy. Nationalized essential needs and distribution, worker owned consumer good production and distribution.

>>514138220
Well that's consumer culture, where marketing and advertisements influence consumer choices. Something that is often left out of these discussions is that the consumer culture is inherently feminist because women make most of the purchases. Like the NATO flag has said, what liberal democrat type people want more than socialism are social jobs programs that allow their participation in consumer society. Look at how they're opposing Trump's militarization of select cities. They'd rather expand social programs that are more likely to allow a diverse group of employees, whereas militarism is mostly limited to a certain type of man. Regardless, the soldier is still buying things with his salary which isn't dependent on the objective of safer cities being achieved.

>>514139708
Calling the USSR inefficient doesn't erase that it achieved universal housing, education, and healthcare, and outperformed the U.S. in metrics like infant mortality and basic nutrition during key decades. Perestroika wasn’t about embracing capitalism for prosperity, it was a last-ditch response to political and bureaucratic gridlock. It's not some proof that markets are functionally superior, it was an attempt to dismantle the mess that was Leninist statecraft, which I already opposed earlier in the thread.

>>514139708
There is a question too of how much the failure of the Soviet system is the fault of the genetic quality of the participants. I've seen French communists bemoan that there was no way corrupt Russians could ever achieve an enviable society.

Your mistake is thinking the care about having a plan or consequnces or anything like that. They are fueled entirely by the very resentment and hate they project onto the right desiring only destruction, the chance to punish others and inflict suffering, and to absolve themselves of their own moral failings not by ever addressing them but instead by rejecting morality itself and trying to pull the whole world so they may never be held to account. Your mistake is expecting well founded ideals from beasts and reason from madmen.

>>514136229
>ok lefties you win, you were right about socialism, it's actually good but only if heckin whites do it
>you are here
>ok lefties you win, you were right about climate change
>ok lefties you win, you were right about nationalized healthcare
>ok lefties you win, you were right about religion

>>514140186
Those tards let a Georgian propagandize to them about Russian superiority, just like the Germans did with an Austrian, so I wouldn't doubt it.

>>514139995
> Well that's consumer culture

That’s any culture that wants to pretend it has a civilization that makes its people prosperous.

>>514140179
> Calling the USSR inefficient doesn't erase that it achieved universal housing, education, and healthcare, and outperformed the U.S. in metrics like infant mortality and basic nutrition during key decades

According to who? In what way do you know that any of that was good living atandards?

>muh housing

Yeah, i love being a poor family of 4 living with another poor family of 4 in a studio, cramped apartment and ration coupons for food LMAO.

>>514140490
They were right about socialism. And climate change And healthcare. And religion.
We live in a material world, we must abolish metaphysical tomfoolery.

>>514140691
>According to who? In what way do you know that any of that was good living atandards?
Brother, I already linked multiple sources in this thread now. Good god, and you motherfuckers called *me* disingenuous earlier?
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1646771/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8375956/

>>514140400
Queers are a problem of capitalism. In socialist ethic, a group whose behaviors are drain on society are not tolerated. This is why gay rights weren't a communist idea and appeared in FORMER communist countries. Under capitalism, gays are celebrated because of a shorter time preference, they have less of a long term perspective so are more likely to help quarterly revenue through their consumer purchases. White (and Asian) men are thrifty and save more than spend so are the enemies of revenue.

>>514140775
>They were right about socialism. And climate change And healthcare. And religion.
yes. unfortunately this board is full of LITERAL children, so they refuse to understand that sometimes the most annoying people on the planet (fat blue haired SJWs) are capable of being objectively correct. picrel is proof that no one here is older than 15 years old.

>>514140954
It’s funny, you can’t even talk about Soviet planned economy anymore now you’re just trying to justify muh socialism with some other stats lmao.

>>514141140
Kek.

>>514119299 (OP)
They can implement their ideal system and the “rich” will figure out ways to circumvent it within a week. Even nonwhites figured out how to avoid wasting an astronomical amount of money on car insurance/taxes/fees by simply registering their shit in Florida or just by using fake dealer plates

>>514141342
These stats are referring to the Soviet nations you dimwit. These numbers were collected during the Soviet era.
Good fucking God, READ GOD FUCKING DAMN IT. READ. There is no point in discussing this if you're just going to cover your eyes and slam your hands on your keyboard like a retard.
Shitposting IS a crime.

>>514141411
>capital controls, diverted profit taxes, and public tax returns
Heh, sorry nigger.

>>514141524
> These stats are referring to the Soviet nations you dimwit. These numbers were collected during the Soviet era.

Probe it, you stupid faggot. I bet you won’t even be able to find the words “Soviet” in your own articles. At best you got “le socialism good PQL” which means nothing in this discussion.

>>514136798
>You don’t get to call it "not capitalism" just because it’s mixed with policies
>i just added these policies that completely negate the system
>but it's still the same system
A good rule of thumb to identify capitalism is to ask "Can the government run out of money?" If the answer is No, it's not capitalism.

>>514119299 (OP)
Well done, you've made it; you're finally free.

>>514141411
>They can implement their ideal system and the “rich” will figure out ways to circumvent it within a week.
>"no bro the situation is hopeless, you gotta believe me bro, stop trying, please im begging you"

>>514141000
>reeeeee they're not real commies

Every time.

Norway is riddled with vaxxed socialist/communist/marxist/environmentalist types in the public discourse and having had to deal with this vermin I have come to the same conclusion as OP.
I've heard classics such as:
>I'm OK with temporarily higher prices as long as it help Ukraine win the war
and
>If there wasn't any interest attached to loans I'd buy a yacht and laugh at you
This is their understanding. Others are sympathetic towards the bank teller who for some reason in their mind does not get a salary without usury.
I think there is also a lot of anxiety from people with higher education as this entire subject matter is something that is completely skimped in their education so it makes them uncomfortable and the only position they can take is the default one which is that "it has to be this way" or go blame capitalism and thus the other side of the shekel is then somehow appealing, but this again only shows a complete lack of understanding. Best way to deal with this is to just ignore them. Do not engage.

>>514140532
It's been pointed out ITT though that the prosperity in capitalist countries is not universal. It's like if you assigned points of economic well being maybe the section of people in capitalist countries who are doing well combined with the underclass without health insurance or permanent housing adds up to a better average than a system that meets all basic needs but doesn't offer more than that. However, no one seems to think that except in these types of discussions. In general, there's widespread anxiety and elections of people promising reform that never happens. Trumpism is basically selling the idea that we can have a prosperous country without immigration. No doubt we could, but there would be less return on investment or price increases if labor costs go up.

>>514140179
These are the things you say if you haven't so much as looked at the decaying remains of what the Soviets built inside Russia.
They destroyed everything of cultural(especially German in the western areas) value and created concrete commie blocks and called it housing.

>>514142171
What are you talking about? ACTUAL communists RIGHT NOW are the least gay places on Earth. China, North Korea, Cuba, all of the communist states ban queers. No queer rights bullshit in the Warsaw Pact. Your response reads as a bot post.

>>514142248
> It's like if you assigned points of economic well being maybe the section of people in capitalist countries who are doing well combined with the underclass without health insurance or permanent housing adds up to a better average than a system that meets all basic needs but doesn't offer more than that

And you’re under the impression that the wealth disparity was better in soviet russia? Keep in mind, cars were something mostly just elites and USSR party officials (along with their own driver) could afford, compared to the US consumer who could have their own vehicle within a reasonable amount of time and resources.

>>514141841
It's basic fuckin logic, this study was conducted in 1986. What socialists nations existed then? The Soviet Union, China, Vietnam, Laos. It analyzed 13 socialist nations. Basic fuckin logic, no, sorry, basic LOGISTICS, says that the Soviets are included.
Any refutation to this will make you look retarded.

Yea like when people say vanguard owns every company even though it’s just vanguard holding the money of the people that own the companies. With blackrock it actually is true because that nasty kike fink abuses this fact to manipulate companies, but vanguard doesn’t meddle and just gives end users the ability to cast their own shareholder votes. Fink should go to jail for his ESG fucking bullshit I HATE KIKES SO MUCH

>>514142607
>IT’S OBVIOUS I JUST CAN’T POINT IT OUT

better luck next time, shill.

>>514142290
You see concrete blocks. I see housing. Liberals like you view things through a bourgeoisie lens only because you have the privilege to do so.

>>514119299 (OP)
That is a nazi argument. It probably has some merit. It's cope to say that nazis are the real resistance and commies the fake one though.
Hitler himself was astroturfed by the german army, socialism was a lot more popular in germany back then than his wierd shit.

>>514142706
That's not how this works. These are logistics. If you can't do logistics then, I'm sorry, you're too retarded to understand anything as it relates to politics. Maybe go try /b/?

>>514129775
Laugh while you can, Monkey Boy. I am talking about the original Old World Order.
>Kingship descended from Heaven.
The one judeo-masons tore down so they could do their sacred great work turning the rest of the world into retarded nigger slaves, because God knows they are incapable of true creation or elevation.

>>514142821
You know who was retarded in logistics? The soviet union centralized planned economy LMAO.

>>514143082
Not according to the World Bank, kiddo. Try again though.

I'm gonna get make a sandwich. Behave yourselves while I'm gone, kids.

>>514142508
Well they had more use of public transportation. This was palatable because the public was the ethnic peers of that nationalist state. Like I said, you really can't omit from the story of capitalism the constant influx of foreigners that persists to the present.

>>514119299 (OP)

not most, anon. All of them.
The ones feigning ignorance are the ones who pimp genuine believers into donating their life away to promote their bullshit ideas lol
The funny thing is that all children are taught from a young age, that, if something is too good to be true then it most likely is. Some people get stupider as they age, that's how indoctrination works.

Never will you see these communist homosexuals talk about reducing energy costs by nationalizing resources thus making goods and produce cheaper which in turn will create jobs etc. They always think in terms of "taking money from here (the shrinking middle class) adding taxes there (those who create jobs), giving to the "less fortunate" (artists who shits on canvases and immigrants). It is always this way with socialists.
Oh and of course if energy did indeed get cheap it would not be because some systemic change, but rather because of subsidizes so the population would get fleeced in another way plus I'm sure all the environmentalist gays would protest as well. It is rather humorous that these folks think they are "fighting capitalism" when they are the system's most useful idiots.

Cars should be literally banned in cities anyway lol, we need to make things small and walkable again like Europe.
>>514143229
brb fr now

>>514143164
>muh world bank

I forgot when they called the soviet union the most prosperous place, even compared to the US.

>>514143245
Doesn’t matter if they use public transportation, they should still be able to afford a car if they need it. What’s wrong with having more purchasing power? Do you prefer having next to no resources to your name?

>>514119299 (OP)
true

>>514143518
I don't consider car ownership a human right. I'd rather freedom from ethnic swarming by alien races to be more of a right. Eastern Bloc lifestyles weren't enviable, but I also don't see how having the purchasing power to segregate from the citizen peers I don't want to be around as the best human society. Outside of some Amish and similar I rarely see a woman in the USA who has all of
>natural hair color
>no makeup
>no tattoos piercings
>a healthy weight
All of those traits can be attributed to marketing efforts to convince them to purchase products, with companies like FB being among the richest in the world for facilitating those sales. Ultimately I hope from a 21st Century solution that looking to the past.

>>514144324
*for a 21st Century solution rather than looking to the past
Communism won't save us, but neither will National Socialism or religion.

>>514119299 (OP)
When did they ever?

>>514143374
Yeah, I notice that in the USA where our neighboring country has nationalized oil but that topic is never brought up here. Of course, that neighbor is shithole Mexico, but that policy is their country's most popular.

One of the first things you learn in Elite Theory is that to really change things you need to replace the people at the top. As long as the same plutocrats are in charge, no new 'system' will make things better, only worse. It's childish to think that way. Democrats are children with a superiority complex.

>>514146062
Hence all the illuminati and freemason conspiracy theories since no one really knows who's at the top of capitalist society. Every single billionaire could be shot and after inheritance and succession it would still be the same system. You would need Stalinist purges of all the schools, police forces, and of course banks. The replacements would need some new qualifications that weren't established in the old system. Basically the best method would just be a chimpout by all young people. Kill everyone over age 20.

>>514142910
The “Old World Order” and “New World Order” are intimately tied, in fact the latter is simply the former hiding behind a new more high-tech subtle mask.
We had these bloodlines who genuinely saw themselves as superior to the common stock, and were pretty big into some form of eugenics for themselves. Which included intermarriages between all the various royal houses of Europe, also used to tactically create alliances (hence why practically all the royal houses of Europe today are related, included to the now-defunct Russian royals), as well as inbreeding to also keep their “special bloodlines” intact.
They viewed themselves as superior to the common stock of people, again, and historically were rather open to mistreating them and abusing them as such.
Royal houses of Europe still have massive holdings in land, stocks, and wealth generally, typically not as easily publicly disclosed, and could have covert ties with intelligence agencies, elite politicians of theirs and others’ nations, and infamous international financiers like the Rothschilds. This web, I’m convinced, put out the “liberal democracy” charade as a controlled-implosion to further cement and hide their power in various ways.
Eugenics for themselves, dysgenics for the masses also seems to be big as part of their agenda. The transhumanism/life-extension etc. bullshit seems part of this, while they also eat their healthier organic diets, and we, for instance, have GMO pesticide-sprayed crap.
It’s an occult charade.

>>514119299 (OP)
>won't someone think of the bankers????
eat shit and die jew, Stalin didn't kill enough of you

>>514119460
fpbp

Socialists don't know anything about economics but neither do MIGApedes.

>>514148062
You don't know anything about socialism.

>>514148627
I used to be one.

>>514148684
Then define socialism.

>>514119299 (OP)
>that most socialists
>buys intel
you mean like tRump?

>>514119299 (OP)
You are now aware that Karl was a member of the lumpenproletariat and it should not surprise you that only the modern lumpenproletariat support his ideas.

>>514149016
>narcissistic
>sociopath
Where the fuck did you get that from?

>>514148728
Socialized ownership of the means of production, usually meaning the state but can also be cooperatives.

>>514149103
Karl fucking let his kids die of poverty rather than working a few weeks.
Which name should we use for such a person?

>>514149148
And what changed your mind on this concept?

>>514119552
50%???? After mortgage, PMI, child rearing expenses, gas, car, home and auto insurances, internet, phone, utilities, HOA, taxes, sales taxes, necessary price gouged basic food product, home maintenance, flood insurance, time spent on upkeep, and all the other fucking things we are ENSLAVED to do, it's more like FUCKING 95%
FUCK KIKES!!!!! FUCK CAPITALISM!!! AND FUCK EVERY DEGENERATE KIKE LOVER WHO SUPPORTS IT

>>514119580
Fucking retard fed psyopper KILL YOURSELF. YOU ARE A USELESS SUBHUMAN. YOU NEED TO LEAVE. GO BACK TO INDIA

>>514149351
what the fuck are you talking about. Three of his kids lived until adulthood, two married and had kids, and all three of them got involved with communism like their father. Karl and Jenny had two infants that had passed away before but not due to "laziness", they died during impoverished stints in the family's life because karl got kicked out of two countries in his lifetime. He was expelled from both france and germany by the government. He had to start his life over with nothing but his family twice over, and two of his kids died during these periods.

Marx had plenty of jobs, primarily journalistic positions. When they were still in Germany, he made a decent living writing and editing for the newspaper Deutsch-Französische Jahrbücher

>>514142742
>It's cope to say that nazis are the real resistance and commies the fake one though.
How is that cope? It's literally true any way you slice it. Look at who is the target of censorship today. Swastika is the most revered symbol of all time. And it has nothing to do with death count either. Fucking tard.

>>514149357
A lot of things.
For example. If someone is a socialist and wants to start a cooperative business right now, in a non socialist country then they can do so. People should be allowed to start a business and run the structure of it how they choose. So right now if you're a socialist what is the problem? People are free to create these systems within their own businesses if they choose.

But socialists don't just mean letting people be free to choose their own method of running a business, what they want is to take power in the government to force an ideology upon everyone.

This is why the 'capitalism vs socialism' argument isn't correctly framed. Socialism is a hands on method, capitalism is hands off.

>>514150131
And as a consequence of this 'hands on' approach there has been incredible amounts of misery in every country that has tried it. It's obvious by now that it does not work.

The most successful places are mixed economies.

>>514149987
When Nazis came to power everyone who was already part of the elite stayed there. All of the captains of industry, even the count who wanted to kill him in 1944. Communist Russia was a total upheaval of the existing ruling participants.

>>514150228
The whole "it doesn't work" argument is pretty lame since there was a 50 year war against communism and it persisted until it didn't. Meanwhile most Western governments are only a little bit older, with some like the current French Republic younger than the communist state's lifetime. No one thinks present capitalist/mixed countries are doing well and that we're actually at the "end of history" with no new ideas needed.

>>514149887
>3 out of 7 kids survived him
This is what communists call a victory.

>>514150911
How many of his contemporary Abraham Lincoln's kids survive? Oh right, one.

>>514149370
The worst part is the constant influx of new people. I'm sure there were Ancient Romans complaining about the same thing. Communism produced the only white nationalism to ever exist. Colonial empires and capitalist immigrant states don't fit the description.

>>514150283
>When Nazis came to power everyone who was already part of the elite stayed there
Hitler:
Abolished private central banking (Reichsbank under state control) - Billions lost in German debt profits
MEFO Bills (State-funded industrial expansion) - Bypassed international loan sharks
Banned stock speculation (major blow to Jewish finance capital) - Crippled Rothschild market manipulation
Seized Jewish assets (Bank accounts, businesses) - $300B+ (modern value) confiscated

Direct Attacks on the Rothschild Family:
1938: Arrested Louis von Rothschild (Vienna) – 1939 he signed over family assets to the Reich.
Shuttered Rothschild-owned industries (Mining, railways, banks)
Systematically dismantled Jewish financial influence in Europe, focusing not just on the Rothschilds but also on other powerful Jewish banking dynasties:
The Warburgs - 1938 "Aryanization": Forced to sell the bank to non-Jewish owners.
The Oppenheims - 1938 Forced Sale
The Bleichröders - 1937 Liquidation
The Mendelsohns – 1938 Forced Liquidation

>All of the captains of industry, even the count who wanted to kill him in 1944
Not surprising considering the German state intervention of industry. Hitler destroyed the international capitalist system with his grounded worldview erected on blood and soil that could not be bought and sold.

>Communist Russia was a total upheaval of the existing ruling participants.
How did that go? Is it still around? You are why leftists will never achieve anything.

>>514151274
Cope. It was the same import-labor system of old. Slaves from across Europe prevented Nazi Germany from being homogenously German.

>>514151172
>Communism produced the only white nationalism to ever exist. Colonial empires and capitalist immigrant states don't fit the description.
That's why they allied themselves with every capitalist power in the world to barely defeat a white nationalist state. Nice logic there fucktard.

>>514151457
GDR was more exclusively German than Nazi Germany.

>>514151435
Literally delusional. You couldn't be a citizen without Aryan blood so by definition import-labor is impossible.

>>514151568
>GDR was more exclusively German than Nazi Germany.
More exclusively Jewish, sure. Not exactly German. Again, communism allied itself with EVERY major capitalist power to defeat a white nationalist state. Until you have an argument, don't respond kike.

>>514151737
Fail. French and Russian and Jew slaves were not German.