Thread 516007226

>Don't earn enough to see much in the way of marginal tax hikes
>Earn vast majority of my income via labor (work). I net $50k after taxes from working, I only earn $12k a year in dividends/interest/capital-appreciation.
>Public housing policies like Mamdanis would lower my rent far more than I would see any additional tax hike.
>Higher taxes on the wealthy and high earners could balance the budget or be used for an even further tax cut on myself

In fact Canada used to be way more socialist and it was better for the working class. Working class used to pay very little in the way of taxes in Canada because the government taxed corporations at 50% and had high marginal taxes. The federal government also owned a large portion of the domestic economy and used the revenues generated to fund itself, eliminating the need for working class taxes. Post WW2 The Federal Government subsidized the construction of tens of thousands of houses, driving down the cost of real estate and rent, making it very easy for young people to afford it.

>>516007226 (OP)
because rich people are divine beings! and taxes are a sin against them

anything that gets the economy back into the nation is good

>>516007365
I have nothing against them, but life could be a lot better for people in my bracket if we embraced these policies.

>>516007226 (OP)
>Why Should I Not Embrace Socialism as a Working Class Person?
Because it destroys society in the long run. It works fine during the first years because it's just uses other people's money, but eventually it runs out and everything goes to shit.

Look at Bolivia right now.

>>516007465
>Because it destroys society in the long run. It works fine during the first years because it's just uses other people's money, but eventually it runs out and everything goes to shit.

It doesn't run out, money is constantly recycled back into the system.

>>516007465
Yeah dude current society is working totally great and not being sucked dry by a bunch of jews

>>516007465
>its bad for your economy if you embrace an economic system that invites CIA meddling and endless sanctions

>>516007226 (OP)
Pic always makes me think of this

>>516007465
Also, look at Canada in the 1950s, look at Scandinavia.

>>516007226 (OP)
Hating rich people doesn't make the poor less poor.

>>516007226 (OP)
Because they'll tax you into poverty.
/thread

OP, I agree but the problem is socialism doesn’t work in multicultural societies. That’s why countries like Canada and America should prioritize throwing nonwhites out. If you start giving free give to jeets and Pablo’s, the whole society collapses. You should absolutely support socialism when you’re done removing the jeets though.
>>516007465
> Look at Bolivia right now.
Because it’s ran by spics. Socialism is a fundamentally white system. You give it to any other race and they fuck it up. That’s why Germany was so successful back then.

>>516008538
socialism doesn't work in any society and nazi germany only lasted 20 years

You're not a working class person. You're a fucking liar.

>>516007226 (OP)
you just have to pray you are lucky enough to get a rent controlled apartment from this guy. if you dont simply lose. builders wont build more rent controlled units.

take your chances.

>>516007465
NYC already has a housing crisis because of rent control. more rent control will make it worse.

if rent control worked NYC would be cheaper lol

>>516007597
>it doesnt run out
most govs borrow ever more money and pay ever more interest on that debt. that wont end well.

>>516007226 (OP)
>captured government creates a situation where people are suffering
>maybe more government would fix it
You’re a retard

>>516008192
Why did you quit the thread as soon as i posted the truth about socialism parasite?

>>516008628
> socialism doesn't work in any society and nazi germany only lasted 20 years
You try making any economic system work in a country that small with 98% of the world against you

>>516009507
The problem is the world was against them because they made war on the world, it was in their ideology to invade "lebensraum", socialism never works it is an imperialistic and totalitarian system.

>>516008538
>America should prioritize throwing nonwhites out.
This will never happen.
Christians love their racial diversity.

>>516007226 (OP)
You’re a jeet street shitter, so I dgaf what your subhuman self says or thinks.

>>516007226 (OP)
He has that Belle Delphine smile

>>516007226 (OP)
The problem is that they are not socialist. They're retarded commies that will turn your country into shit.
If they're actual socialists, then yeah, go ahead and vote for them.

>>516010672
communism is socialism

>>516007226 (OP)
What happened to the rest of Fallout Boy.

>>516007465
>it's just uses other people's money, but eventually it runs out
The State can't run out of money. It creates the money. It can run out of things to buy and then you have inflation. But it cannot run out of money.

>>516011222
Let me introduce you to a concept called "inflation".

>>516011222
He doesn't mean literally he means eventually money becomes worthless and all the real wealth is destroyed or stolen by the state.

>>516009024
Governments can always afford to make their interest payments -- because they pay it the same way they pay for anything else, by crediting a bank account. That's literally it.

And second of all -- governments don't need to sell bonds to finance themselves in the first place. Maybe they should do it because pension funds like to earn interest, but it's a policy choice.

>>516007226 (OP)
We have to shift toward socialism because literally zero effort is being made to stop collapsing the middle class. Rich get subsidized and receive special treatment to the point of literally getting a walk for raping children.

Unfortunately, socialism immediately turns into a brown feeding at the trough with (ironically) zero regulation. Same people who espouse open borders and infinite immigration creating downward wage pressure shriek about welfare programs. Zero strategy or investment in not collapsing all industry.

Pick your poison

>>516009481
I was doing other shit, you never posted the truth of anything.

Middle class people don't get taxed. It's for the rich.

>>516011434
Real wealth is real resources. Metals, minerals, machines, arable land, etc. On and on down the line. Money is just a tool to direct these real resources. If the resources continue to exist and are accessible, it's not a problem. If they don't exist and/or they aren't accessible, then it is a problem.

>>516007226 (OP)
You should. Fuck rich people.

>>516008260
Lowering rent absolutely will increase my disposable income.

>>516008854
>>516008762
I'm not for rent control im for state industrial policy to build houses.

>>516009024
Yeah that's why we need to tax the rich and high earners and corporations, so we don't need to borrow money.

>>516009463
>I got cancer due to radiation poisoning
>NO I WONT TAKE CHEMO, THATS RADIATION, THATS WHAT CAUSED MY CANCER IT CANT BE THE SOLUTION

You're retarded.

>>516011742
>I'm not for rent control im for state industrial policy to build houses.
This is the ideal solution. Drown them with supply.

>>516011456
This is MMT and it's completely misguided.

Yes, governments CAN print money, but if they print any more than they currently are you'll see inflation rise above the 2% benchmark.

MMT isn't the solution, taxes on the rich and spending cuts on non-investment functions are.

>>516011571
>Same people who espouse open borders and infinite immigration

Well people aren't having kids, we need population growth to boost GDP and wages.

If you want less minorities, ok but we need people to have more kids.

>>516011841
Exactly, abundance Liberalism

>>516011890
MMT accurately describes exactly how money works. If people don't like it, that is their problem. MMT does not say you should print infinity dollars. It doesn't actually make any policy recommendations at all (some MMT advocates and scholars have their own thoughts on that). It's descriptive.
>above the 2% benchmark
It might not be the end of the world. Do we want 18-25%? No. I don't think 4-5% would end life as we know it, assuming better distribution.

But MMT is absolutely accurate. Sorry if you don't like it.

>>516011456
>Governments can always afford to make their interest payments
not always. many countries have defaulted on government debt. you should google it.

>governments don't need to sell bonds to finance themselves
correct. they do it if they spend more than they take in in taxes. almost all countries need to sell bonds included the US, Canada, EU, etc

>>516011571
We are done with the false dichotomy of capitalism vs. socialism. It was the republicans that destroyed it after the libs put it on life line. But between companies buying access to markets and now America having a stake in intel (and subsequently dealing it's domestic labor market to the chinese for lithium or what the fuck ever). The dichotomy is dead. What is MY government doing for ME. Fuck your idealism JFK.

>>516011742
well Mamdani and NYC are in favor of rent control. maybe change the op?

they tax the rich and companies a lot in many EU countries and they still have debt. they even have 20% VAT and its not enough. France just had its debt downgraded.

maybe more taxes will work but the issue seems to be gov spending.

>>516012162
>MMT accurately describes exactly how money works. If people don't like it, that is their problem. MMT does not say you should print infinity dollars. It doesn't actually make any policy recommendations at all (some MMT advocates and scholars have their own thoughts on that). It's descriptive.

Ok fair, it's just every MMT advocate I see uses it to justify expanding the size of the government through deficits and QE.

However, I don't even think it is totally accurate.

When governments deficit spend, they aren't creating money in and of itself. They're selling bonds to the public. Any additional money spent by a government above its revenue is financed by selling bonds, which siphons monies out of the economy before spending it back in. It's not like new money is being created by that act alone.

The money creation comes in when the central bank buys up those bonds, but that is a bifurcated process from the actual deficit. A government could run a huge deficit while decreasing the money supply via Quantitate Tightening (like in 2022), or run a surplus and expand the money supply.

In fact I've even wrote a paper suggesting the Federal Government should aim to run a balanced budget, and the Central Bank should resort to buying provincial debt to increase the money supply

>>516007226 (OP)
Shit brain thinks the supporting the working class means being socialist.

Ngmi

>>516007226 (OP)
because you need to be a good boy, good boys behave well and send money to israel, that's all that matters.

>>516012162
voters dont seem to like 4-5% inflation. many even itt seem to be asking for prices to go down (deflation)

>>516007226 (OP)
You don't get the power to issue currency out of the deal. You get new bosses and even less rights.

>>516012162
Also, why would printing money ever be beneficial besides extreme emergencies?

You're diverting real economic resources away from where they would otherwise be, it's no different than a tax except a tax is predictable and absolute while inflation is more unpredictable and distorts market signals in an erratic way.

>>516012749
i dont see how voting for open borders democrats who support illegal immigration would help the working class

>>516012163
>not always. many countries have defaulted on government debt. you should google it.
And if those governments had a currency they issued themselves, no significant foreign currency-denominated debt, a non-convertible currency, and tax liabilities denominated in that currency, they should not have defaulted.

Be wary of schemes like you see in Argentina through the years where the government somehow can't pay the debt denominated in its own currency and then some comprador gets into office and immediately starts taking loans in foreign currencies.
>they do it if they spend more than they take in in taxes.
No, they don't need to do that. The very act of government spending to a deficit creates reserves in the banking system in that amount. They are they as soon as the government approves the spending. So what bond sales do is drain excess reserves from the banking system in support of the central bank's interest rate target (the overnight interest rate, or the rate of interest for interbank lending). If reserves were to pile up in the banking system, it would naturally drive the rate of interest to zero or near-zero. Of course the central bank is a monopoly operation and can always set the interest rate exactly where it wants irrespective of any performative "market" actions it takes.

But selling bonds is a part of monetary policy. The government doesn't need to borrow its own money unit from the population. The only thing it accepts as payment for bonds in the first place is its own currency -- it's own debt! Logically government spending has to come first. Think about it for a couple minutes.

It is very useful for entrenched interests to make you think something different is going on, though.

>>516007226 (OP)
Because you might become a billionaire someday and it would suck paying more in taxes, right goy-err guy?

Now run along now, your lunch shift ended and you aren't being paid to post!

>>516012510
I didn't realize that, I thought he just wanted to have the city build units.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVuCZMLeWko

>they tax the rich and companies a lot in many EU countries and they still have debt. they even have 20% VAT and its not enough. France just had its debt downgraded.

That's because they spend like crazy, have huge welfare programs, are bringing in refugees that don't work and take up welfare, and they have low retirement ages.

You would tax the rich but also raise the retirement age to 70 (and ideally eventually to 170), massive cuts to welfare, massive cuts to Federal Transfer funding, pretty much all pork barrel spending. Abolish most government agencies.

>>516012843
The government has to print money. It is an origin point for money. Government has to spend first.

>>516012913
People aren't having kids to replenish the population so immigration is the medicine.

Socialist policies could raise the birthrate.

>>516007226 (OP)
There is no such thing as a socialist member of the working class. Socialism is a bourgeois hobby that only benefits lumpenproles.

>>516012934
>But selling bonds is a part of monetary policy. The government doesn't need to borrow its own money unit from the population. The only thing it accepts as payment for bonds in the first place is its own currency -- it's own debt! Logically government spending has to come first. Think about it for a couple minutes.

No it doesn't.

Say we had an economy with 0 dollars... the central bank can loan money into existence by loaning to commerical banks, it can buy assets like land, stocks, bonds, etc.

Many ways to create money without government deficits.

>>516013069
Money can be created via central bank purchases of assets.

>>516013298
Socialism benefits the hard workers on the lower and middle income bracket.

>>516007226 (OP)

Because it's fucking retarded, full of lies and will steer you into an even worse fate.

This is why low IQ people shouldn't get anywhere near politics.

>>516013452
You're dumb white trash and the epitome of poor education

>>516007438

No it wouldn't. You can't be older than 22 else you'd know better (or should).

>>516012934
its not only argentina that has defaulted on debt or required a bailout from the IMF

>no significant foreign currency-denominated debt
but you know why they had foreign currency debt. no international person would loan to them in their local currency due to the investment risk.

the rest of your post has lead to inflation whenever governments simply print money. even excess borrowing and spending has caused inflation.

even the baby version of MMT (free covid money) caused 40 year highs in inflation. let alone the cost of paying it back one day (not likely)

>>516013574
You're clearly uneducated.

>>516013532

>I'm poor and envious of others
>give me free shit!
>NOOO YOU ARE LOW EDUCATION IF YOU DISAGREE WITH MY GREED!

COPE. SEETHE. DIALATE. You lost tranny.

>>516013588
>even the baby version of MMT (free covid money) caused 40 year highs in inflation. let alone the cost of paying it back one day (not likely)

This is a bit contradictory.

If the deficits were financed via borrowing, they wouldn't be inflationary, they would simply redirect money.

If the deficits were financed via money printing, they wouldn't need to be "paid back' since it wasn't really borrowed, it was printed.

Most of the Covid money was "borrowed" via selling bonds but the Central Bank instantly ate those bonds up, effectively cancelling them out. In fact the central bank was trying to create so much money they started buying Microsoft and Apple debt.

>>516013347
If the central bank is loaning money into existence, that's the government spending money into existence. The central bank is a government apparatus. Stop falling for libertarian propaganda.

If you don't want a deficit, it's actually fairly straightforward -- bring the interest rate below the growth rate. Or start running a large enough trade surplus with foreign countries that they are the ones in deficit to you.

Otherwise if the country is running a sufficiently trade deficit and the government is also running a budget surplus, where is the only logical place that surplus could be generated from? A private sector deficit. All assets and liabilities must balance to zero.

>>516013731
>I drive roads
>I don't understand how road exists
>Me thinks road popped into existence
>Me no like tax.

>>516013103
ill help you, illegal immigration does not help the working class

>Socialist policies could raise the birthrate.
it doesnt seem to be working in cuba, north korea, or china, it didnt work in the USSR

>>516013606

You will never be a woman.

>>516013588
>no international person would loan to them in their local currency due to the investment risk.
What I am saying is that this is not necessarily a problem. It's not quite so simple, because obviously different countries will have different resources available to them and different skills at their disposal. So if they need something from somewhere else and they can't make a reasonable copy with what they got in house, they may have to bite the bullet.

But given sufficient resources under their own law, monetary sovereign governments don't need anyone to loan them any money.

>>516013809
>If the central bank is loaning money into existence, that's the government spending money into existence.

You implied it was deficit financing that creates money. Central banks can make asset purchases in balanced budgets.

>If you don't want a deficit, it's actually fairly straightforward -- bring the interest rate below the growth rate. Or start running a large enough trade surplus with foreign countries that they are the ones in deficit to you.

It's the other way around, a balanced budget or surplus is what will bring down interest rates and a trade surplus.

>Otherwise if the country is running a sufficiently trade deficit and the government is also running a budget surplus, where is the only logical place that surplus could be generated from? A private sector deficit. All assets and liabilities must balance to zero.

In that scenario, the trade balance would start to invert. As the government is taxing money out of its domestic economy, and putting it back into the capital markets (partially held by forigners) who now have more dollars to buy American goods.

>>516013848

>thinks poor people pay for the roads
>turns out it's actually the rich people

I'm not wasting any more time with someone as low IQ as you. Fucking neophyte. Enjoy necking yourself after your painful dilatation, tranny.

>>516013441
>Money can be created via central bank purchases of assets.
But the central bank, which is a government arm, is still creating the money with which to purchase those assets.

>>516013866
>ill help you, illegal immigration does not help the working class

They absolutely grow the economy, they're a distraction to divert working peoples' attentions away from the actual issues.

>it doesnt seem to be working in cuba, north korea, or china, it didnt work in the USSR

It's working in Hungary, it worked in Germany,

>>516007226 (OP)
Because the state hates you, so putting your labor and its fruits in the hands of the state is suicide. If we had a state that was benevolent to us then it would be a good idea, but we have ZOG.

>>516014086
>rich pay for the roads

Yeah, because they are taxed.

Holy shit literal uneducated white trash.

yep and it caused inflation

>>516013574
>muh Socialism has never worked
worked pretty damn well for Germany.
>inb4 NatSoc isn't Socialism
you can't be older than 22

>>516014046
>You implied it was deficit financing that creates money. Central banks can make asset purchases in balanced budgets.
If the government creates $1T and spends it into the economy and then it taxes $1T out of the economy, what money is left over in the economy? Government spending more than it takes in is how it leaves money behind in the economy.

Unless of course you're running significant trade surpluses with foreign nations, who then can be the ones leaving money behind in the economy. I feel like this is actually very simple and intuitive.

How about you get more competitive in the job market or open your own business instead of crying about a dead ideology in a dead forum.

>>516007226 (OP)
I support Mamdani because he makes Jews seethe but man his smiling face is just the most punchable one I've ever seen.

This reminds me of a reddit for "punchable faces" where it was originally apolitical but then it turned into a place where being "punchable" was strictly based on holding politics reddit didn't like rather than it just being based on someone looking like they had a punchable face even if you might happen to agree with them.

>>516008628
It pulled them out of the brink of collapse, lasted for two decades, and only came to an end because the entire fucking world targeted them.

>>516011222
Debt is not money.

>>516014046
>It's the other way around, a balanced budget or surplus is what will bring down interest rates and a trade surplus.
The central bank is a monopoly. It can set the interest rate wherever it wants. The Treasury is also a monopoly. It can set bond yields wherever it wants.
>but if the bond yields are low no one will buy the bonds!
They don't need to sell bonds to finance themselves. Or if you really want to sell bonds, allow the central bank to purchase bonds from the Treasury directly on the primary market. They remit the interest they earn on bonds they hold back to the Treasury anyway -- so it wouldn't matter if the yields were bad.

>>516014157
illegal immigrants drive down wages especially for the working class. college grads are less impacted.

>It's working in Hungary, it worked in Germany,
Germany has a birthrate of 1.39 which is below the US. Hungary is 1.51 also below the US. its not working at all.

no comment on cuba, china, or north korea? ok

>>516007226 (OP)
I'm also a socialist.

>>516012795
Deflation is a good thing, anon. Deflationary periods are essential to a healthy, functioning economy. Raise the interest rate to ~20% and let the good times roll!

>>516014439
Money that is circulating because of central bank injections.

>>516014042
>But given sufficient resources under their own law, monetary sovereign governments don't need anyone to loan them any money.
right, they dont have that and need the foreign investment

>if things were different they would be different
of course

>>516014442
How about you stop crying and whining and pay up your taxes?

If you're not born to a rich family you can't get a good job.

>>516013069
You cannot "print money" anon. Most of the debt based fiat currency (not money) comes into existence through loans. Mostly mortgages. (Death pledge.)

>>516013796
yes it caused inflation

>>516013347
Central banking is the fifth plank to the communist manifesto. (It is the communism that ruined the economy.)

>>516014653
>The central bank is a monopoly. It can set the interest rate wherever it wants. The Treasury is also a monopoly. It can set bond yields wherever it wants.

A central bank can only influence rates so much before there's drastic consequences, and the treasury department can not set yields whatever they'd like, because there has to be a buyer of the bonds they issue.

>They don't need to sell bonds to finance themselves. Or if you really want to sell bonds, allow the central bank to purchase bonds from the Treasury directly on the primary market. They remit the interest they earn on bonds they hold back to the Treasury anyway -- so it wouldn't matter if the yields were bad.

Yeah the central bank could buy up the bonds, aka print money, but this comes with catastrophic consequences if it's not tightly controlled and restrained.

>>516015062
>If you're not born to a rich family you can't get a good job.
the truth is revealed. bro is a loser.

>>516011651
Still money printing steals wealth because the money is worth less.

>>516014703
>illegal immigrants drive down wages especially for the working class.

Immigrants, assuming they work, boost GDP and thus wages.

>Germany has a birthrate of 1.39

In the 1930s it was like 5 births per woman.

>Hungary is 1.51

Compare that to South Korea, the policy 100% worked.

USA has a high birthrate due to religiousity and cheap housing, but it could do better.

>>516011588
>Middle class people don't get taxed. It's for the rich.
What the FUCK are you talking about retard? The poor and the middle class always get taxed, the rich don't, you're insane.

>>516015128
>The world's collective total debt (public and private) stood at 237% of global GDP in 2023
Please tell me more about how you cannot print money.

>>516015253
You are a loser, you definitely didn't go to an Ivy League.

>>516014556
>pulled them out of the brikn of collapse and then collapsed even harder
great job socialist retards, socialism is death

>>516015365
The poor don't have money to pay taxes and the middle class aren't high enough on the income bracket to pay tax.

In the U.S they have a progressive tax system, you only start paying when you make a lot of money.

>>516014918
then youre also a parasitic murderer

>>516015546
Womp-womp. Go and pull your money out of my stocks oh wait.

>>516015519
Ok you're just lying out of your ass now, the middle class DO get taxed, fuck off retarded cunt.

>>516007226 (OP)
>Embrace Socialism as a Working Class Person
I don't embrace gays and trannies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPLQNUVmq3o

>>516015217
>A central bank can only influence rates so much before there's drastic consequences, and the treasury department can not set yields whatever they'd like, because there has to be a buyer of the bonds they issue.
You are over thinking this and gaslighting yourself.

Until you understand: the government doesn't need it's own money unit from the population.

>>516015595
You're poor? Self-own.

>>516015699
Your entire worth is meaningless too yeah.

>>516007226 (OP)
It can work if the bank of canada raises interest rates to 15% and never drops them. Anything less and the whole thing results in triple digit inflation.

>>516009024
we're already doing that without socialism, so socialism wouldnt be any worse

>>516015665
Bro if you steal from me you are my enemy it's as simple as that.

>>516011742
In your shit analogy, you aren’t taking chemo or targeted radiation therapy, you’re just taking a higher dose of the original radiation source.

>>516015620
You're stupid and don't know anything.

>>516015754
Why are you angry?

>>516015350
go ask carpenters if illegal immigrant carpenters boost their wages

>n the 1930s it was like 5 births per woman.
the birth rate was higher everywhere in the 1930 cmon

>1.51
>100% worked
>compare it to SK the lowest in the world
lol

what is this dreck

>>516015983
Why are you?

>>516015665
It does if it doesn't want to cause runaway inflation

>>516015772
>we already chopped our own arm off so we might as well chop our legs and head off too
Insanity.

>>516007226 (OP)
National or international socialism?

>>516016041
I'm not but you want to steal from me.

>>516016171
Steal what.

>>516007226 (OP)
Because American “socialism” is more about social issues and woke ideology. They’re anti-tariff, anti-American worker, pro-mass immigration, anti-white, pro-DEI, etc. National Socialism is the only socialism that works.

>>516015482
>entire world stops trade with you
>they're all pouring Jews into your country at a displacement-rate
>now they're all invading you
>only ally gets literally nuked
yeah wtf, how could they have collapsed?
Fascist-led Socialism is the one true political system.

>>516015772
i would argue we already have a lot of socialism. it can be worse if you go BK like Argentina, Greece, etc

>>516015757
We could have lower interest rates with socialism.

>>516015929
>Government policy stricts housing an causes a shortage
>Government policy to build more houses and increase supply

Complete opposites.

>>516016015
Go ask Software Engineers if they'd rather pay $20 for an Uber or $70 because there's no immigrants to do it.

Ask your neighbours if they'd want to pay 1.5x for food because of immigrant farm labor.

>didn't work at all
>literally raised birthrates by 50% since the policy was ennacted.

LOL

>>516015370
Debt is not money, anon.

>>516015429
just dont out yourself as a loser next thread.

>>516016231
>They're anti-tariff

Well yeah, it's a tax on the consumer

>Anti-American worker

False

>Pro migration

Birthrate is below replacement.

>>516007465
American capitalism destabalized Bolivia not socialism dumbass, the pink tide lifted 70 million people out of poverty, when's the last time the free market did that?

>>516009463
The government didnt create these issues, in fact their lack of interference is ehat allowed them to happen.
>inb4 muh zoning regulations
1) the point of that was to maintain property value without having to raise rent; landlords are the ones who chose to raise prices just to make even more money
2) despite that we still have millions of unused houses that only aren't being used because landlords are playing chicken with renters by refusing to lower prices to meet demand
3) that is a single, isolated policy surrounded on all sides by nothing, 0 government action.

>>516016418
Your lexicon outed you as a loser. You 100% did not go to Harvard, Yale, or Columbia.

>>516007226 (OP)
Doing it locally won't do enough. It has to be international. Taxing the rich works if everyone does it, nations can't be allowed to compete for the lower taxes on the rich.

>>516007226 (OP)
If you think a brown socialist will redistribute wealth to anyone other than his fellow browns you are extremely deluded.

>>516016042
So i suppose the argument would be that bond sales "sequester" the money away, right? But of course this isn't quite right, is it?

See back in the day reserves were convertible into gold while securities weren't, so that is the current basis for bonds not being counted within the primary money supply. The secondary bond market is of course among the very most liquid in the world, with bonds capable of being used as payment and collateral -- so the idea that aren't multiplying the money supply while held in bonds is disingenuous.

>>516016227
Money, freedom etc.

>>516014703
>college grads are less impacted
Not anymore

>>516016354
How can they be opposite when it’s one stupid government policy after another? It’s the same fucking source.

>>516016247
>entire world stops trade with you
Why would i trade with national socialists? I wouldn't give you a cent.

>>516016354
>Go ask Software Engineers if they'd rather pay $20 for an Uber or $70 because there's no immigrants to do it.
>Ask your neighbours if they'd want to pay 1.5x for food because of immigrant farm labor.
these are example which hurt the working class who work as uber driver and work on farms.

>literally raised birthrates by 50% since the policy was ennacted.
it didnt though and is still below the US

>>516015951
Not an argument moron.

>>516016369
Fiat currency by definiton is debt banks owes to you in gold well it was till Nixon decided to nuke it so he can print manufactured wealth.

>>516007226 (OP)
Honestly I'm beginning to appreciate socialism a bit more as I grow older.
Even if you bring a truly nationalist patriot government, the champions, emissaries and servants of the Capital will slowly subvert your good government and people.
Capital has gotta be curbed somehow under the heel of the State.
I pay my respects to Hitler once again.

>>516007226 (OP)
Because socialism ignores reality of race, sex, hierarchy, and religion and all civilizations need a correct metaphysical understanding of these realities to be coherent and indeed civilized. "Material Progress" can't answer basic questions of human meaning and existence and rather than seeking truth and harmony you seek meaning in "class warfare" which is ultimately nothing but destruction rather than understanding. You gain NOTHING being socialist except your own destruction because you can't understand ideas like harmony, resonance and nature. Why do you think the lives all of these "socialist" blue haired freaks is always a mess? It's because their entire world is externalizing their problems and creating outgroup blame rather than seeking mastery of their own lives and abilities as people. You people can't even wash your own penises and bathe but you think that more taxes on billionaires somehow helps will solve your problems. This is kind of delusion which always and everywhere ends up with you cutting off your man bits and shooting up a bunch of normies because you are out of control and refuse to develop any level of agency which why you are poor and your life sucks not billionaires.

>>516007226 (OP)
You should. National socialism.

>>516016448
You can’t preempt the counter argument by merely mentioning it
You are seeing the fallout of government weaponization and then doubling down and thinking more government can fix it.

>>516016485
Nope, let the rich leave, if you're a real socialist you know you don't need them anyway.

>>516016527
The bonds can't be used to pay taxes, they have to be converted for cash.

This logic could count any sort of bond as "money".

>>516007226 (OP)
Why didn’t you move to Venezuela?

>>516016812
>good government
LOL

>>516016444
>capitalism destabalized Bolivia

Cant be too much of a powerhouse if capitalism can just come along and knock it over

This shit is like the equivalent of blaming straight people everytime a tranny kills ximself

>>516016604
How the fuck I steal your "freedom". Like nigger just walk away.

>>516016687
>Anarcho-Capitalist
You guys have never even had your own nation, and barely have enough members to form a town.

>>516016653
One is a good policy, one is bad.

>>516016777
>these are example which hurt the working class who work as uber driver and work on farms.

And your example of the carpenter is an example of helping the working class.

As a worker, I can afford a cheaper carpenter, allowing me to keep more money, boosting my disposable income. Thanks to the immigrant, I am richer.

>>516016777
That graph shows a near 50% increase since 2010 when it was enacted.

>>516016477
see >>516015253

get mad at yourself

>>516007226 (OP)
because it's going to fail and you are going to end up suffering more.

>>516016788
You didn't present an argument, you're just stupid.

>>516016892
Why don't you move to Somalia?

>>516017066
You liking the idea of a policy doesn’t make it inherently good you child

>>516007226 (OP)
>classifying yourself downward
slave mentality

>>516017015
You are stealing his freedom to live off your work.

>>516016687
I through unilateral free trade was always and everywhere an unmigrated good for any and all society everywhere and at all times. You aren't being a very good libertarian.

>>516017129
Somalia is not free, you stupid mongoloid

>>516007226 (OP)
Socialism is fine in ethnostates. Here, it will just be used to enslave you if you're white. So it's not that you should or shouldn't support socialism. Is that you should acknowledge the things that actually fucking matter towards the cause of your problems.

>>516007226 (OP)
because communists aren't people.

>>516016804
>print manufactured wealth
>owe $37.5 trillion plus interest
The U.S. is the world's largest debtor nation.

>>516007226 (OP)
>why shouldn't I sell my daughter in prostitution?
same short-term thinking.

>>516015062

That says something about your domestic culture and regulatory state. Why is nobody opening companies in Canada? Because it is Canada. If you fix your shit, companies will come and create jobs - or you will see an opportunity and make your own company.

>>516017066
no, illegal immigrant carpenters do no help legal carpenters wages.

its the same as your uber and farm examples.

>That graph shows a near 50% increase since 2010 when it was enacted
no its about 20%.1.23 to 1.51.

>>516017271
Who do they owe the debt to, though? It's you, for the most part.

>>516016882
>3 specific counterpoints
>"all you did was mention the argument"
Also, if someone creates a problem, yes, i expect THEM to fix it. "Government interference" in general isnt bad, they just fucked it up once. And now it's their job to fix it. Like anyone else who causes problems.

>>516007226 (OP)
There is socialism already, just not for you. White people are like dairy cows or chickens in a battery cage. Keep working as hard as you can and they will give you enough so you can keep being productive.

Without your tax dollars, how can a youung mother from India support her 8 children? Many of these immigrants have 20 and 30 family members they need to support. Do you think immigration lawyers are free you bigot?

>>516017066
Or, you could be your own carpenter thereby saving more of your "money" while denying revenue to the state.

>>516017335
Most socialist revolutions arose from situations in which people were forced to sell their children to avoid starvation. Happy normies cannot be persuaded to start revolutions.

>>516017146
No, but a good policy is a good policy regardless of me liking it, stupid child.

>>516017216
Venesuala is a poor shithole moron.

>>516017473
The debt will never be paid. It is mathematically impossible without stealing. (In this case, by devaluing the purchasing power of the currency.)

Things that people are learning finally:
>Jews brainwashed you to believe capitalism and socialism are the scale not racialism.
>Socialism, communism, anarcho capitalism all work fine in white ethnostates, and enslave all other states
>Modern right and left are jewish inventions to keep the game running.
>All that matters is leadership with ties to your people and a nation state that exists solely for the benefit of your ethnic citizenry. Everything else fails.

>>516007226 (OP)
higher taxes = less money.
however if your rich, higher taxes wont really effect you/you can just launder the money.
this is something i figured out in my late teens.

>>516017681
What marketable skills to you have?

Can you weld, machine, do mechanical design, are you artistic enough to have marketable skills, do electronics, carpentry, etc. ? Anything. Why are you not just a waste of air? I'm curious.

>>516017449
>no, illegal immigrant carpenters do no help legal carpenters wages.

Illegal immigrant carpenter working for cheap absolutely boosts the disposable income of the consumers of said service. My real wage is higher thanks to immigrants selling me things for a lower price.

>>516017529
The time it would take for me to acquire those skills and be my own carpenter would more than offset simply spending money to outsource the task.

>>516017789
Learn to stop brining up random shit.

>>516017827
Rich are the only ones who pay taxes.

>>516007226 (OP)
You fall into the same trap as trump and maga when it comes to the working class. Industry will never come back no matter how hard you put it on life support. It's not the 50's anymore. And everything else is just rose tinted glasses. Yeah people got cheap houses that were covered in asbestos and a 1/3rd the size of modern houses we can bring that back if you want. Btw you would need tariffs like trump otherwise your working class will just be undercut at every step of the way.

>>516017937
I have a finance degree, I am an investment analyst.

>>516017970
>Learn to stop brining up random shit
The answer was a direct substantive reply to the OP, are you fucking retarded

>>516017727
>In this case, by devaluing the purchasing power of the currency
Let's hope it stays that way this time.

>>516017977
Tariffs are a tax on the working class.

>>516018066
You need to learn to stay on topic.

>>516018145
>I have no rebuttal to your substantive reply which answered my question succinctly
Kek retard

>>516018101
On the middle class not the working class.

>>516018101
Tariffs are a tax on consumption.

>>516018101
>Tariffs are a tax on the working class.
You'll never get that into their heads. Every time I go buying food, I see people standing wide-eyed at the meat counter, unable to afford anything because we're protecting our multimillionaire farmers.

>>516018067
>Let's hope it stays that way this time.
Indeed. There are many other forms of stealing the criminals masquerading as "government" have at their disposal.

Whether jews are leaving you bare scraps via owning all of the corporations which run your life under capitalism or owning the government which runs your life under socialism/communism, you will have only scraps unless you understand the problem and fix it at the root.

>>516018507
taxing the rich is a tax on the working class

>>516007226 (OP)
As a true 'Murican I must say that governments have killed and oppressed more people, especially authoritarian ones, but technology is the only thing that has made life better for the employees/serfs/slaves/servants

>>516018033

So your continued existance depends on the FIRE economy? (finance insurance real-estate) How is what you are paid to do not parasitizing people that actually make things?

Also isn't your advocacy of MMT a little in your own self interest? What I means is as you being in an industry running close to originated dollars puts you personally ahead of others in the queue for govbucks. It puts you ahead of those that actually work for a living. And you advocate your policies as good for workers?

>>516007226 (OP)
Because you end up with your rich people in Switzerland and you picking up the extra tab imposed by socialist politics.

>it's a battle between left and right
>It's a class warfare
>It's the jews
Many in this thread are still hamsters on the wheel thinking they're revolutionaries or enlightened on the subject matter. But they don't understand it and have only gotten to stage 2, which does absolutely nothing to fix the problems they see.

>>516018758
An exit tax is possible if you want it. Germany introduced one a few years ago. Every German who emigrates must pay a special tax on their assets.

>>516007226 (OP)
Because glorified salesmen say you need to pull yourself by the bootstraps on TV. This is literally the entire reason.

>>516018673
Most finance people do not like MMT because it demystifies how money works and explains that money is not a scarce resource.

>>516019046
Oh we have exit taxes out the ass. Didn't stop our rich people from fucking off to Switzerland. I would if I had the means, but I'm stuck picking up the tab.

>>516019046
Stuff like this isn't even necessary. The state doesn't need the money of rich people. If they want to leave and take their money with them, let them. They can't take their land.

>>516019134
How do you think MMT should work? The classical way? Governments taxation is itself what creates demand for dollars, the government then prints out extra $, gives it to those industries close to it, and to those on welfare?

You must agree that there must be some scarcity to currency as otherwise there would be no value to it. Correct?

>>516019160
>Didn't stop our rich people from fucking off to Switzerland.
You mean jews. And this is not because of a tax issue, it's because of your people allowing them in in the first place.

>>516008854
>NYC already has a housing crisis because of rent control. more rent control will make it worse
There are people who do deep dives into how the NYC real estate problem is directly ties to people buying up land, taking out loans against themselves because they have an inflated value "my 5000 square feet of prime real estate is worth 50000000$" even though it's a 40 square foot closet, and then they say because no one actually paid them that money they made no money off of the property so the city owes them back money due to write offs.
It's ridiculously Jewish, but as long as you have enough capital to get into that system and lack enough ethics to profit off of it, you're doing fine.

>>516019679
>jews
No, I meant every fucking businessman rich enough to do so when the socialists put taxes on unrealized gains for ANY Norwegian owner of a business, but left it wide open if you run it from another country.

>>516018614
Then why are Scandinavians so insanely wealthy? Why did Canadians used to be uber wealthy?

>>516018673
>So your continued existance depends on the FIRE economy? (finance insurance real-estate) How is what you are paid to do not parasitizing people that actually make things?

Finance is one of the few industries that is a net producer.

Farms are subsidized, manufacturing is subsidized, energy is subsidized. The biggest Canadian companies are banks.

>Also isn't your advocacy of MMT a little in your own self interest? What I means is as you being in an industry running close to originated dollars puts you personally ahead of others in the queue for govbucks. It puts you ahead of those that actually work for a living. And you advocate your policies as good for workers?

I think MMT is horrible for a country because it will destroy trust in the currency. I am a worker myself and I want to live in a good strong economy.

>>516018758
Exit tax.

>>516019805
The system you accept is one that does not prioritize your ethnic people, so they have no fear operating in your country and then leaving. This is the dynamic that needs to be fixed in order for the problem to be rooted out.

>>516019160
Ok, but it doesn't matter if you have an exit tax, because then they're taxed anyway.

>>516019928
>Then why are Scandinavians so insanely wealthy? Why did Canadians used to be uber wealthy?
As parasitic nomads, jews move from country to country, exploiting them until they have properly seeded the next victim.

>>516020014
One time tax payment that's a miniscule amount of the added costs of socialist politicians.
That's what an exit tax is. You and me on the other hand, can't afford and will never afford to escape their clutches.

>>516019982
Again, these are not jews but ethnic Norwegian people who have built shit up over generations and generations and would like nothing more than to run their shit and pay taxes like any normal business owner.
But when you slap taxes on unrealized gains, that means you need to sell stock to afford paying taxes. That is socialism.

>>516019928
>Finance is one of the few industries that is a net producer.

That's hilarious. Can you explain what you think finance produces? Just more efficient allocation of resources?

>>I think MMT is horrible
ok. on day of the rake you don't need to be at the front of the line.

>>516007226 (OP)
hes just lying promising the conflicting things that would never work

show me anyone whod say 'no tax on low income' - that would actually instantly help working class, but no, everyone just wants to rob people of their hard earned money

>>516018758
In Europe that's an issue.
In the US, they have far too many people and world reserve currency.
So moving your business out of the US is riskier than leaving it there and putting up with taxes.

India fucked Visa and MasterCard overnight a while back (right before Trump started picking fights with India funny enough).
China keeps fucking over companies that get too big for their britches.
Even Brazil is actively working towards killing the Bank Jew.

Major corps know that the US is the only place where government won't overnight destroy your company AND there's a big market.
If the US decides to do company takeovers that might shift, but the benefit would be worth the risk IMO.

>>516008538
>>516008628
socialism worked best in the USSR and China, where there was a ton of minorities alongside a high admixture main ethnic group, and they made a huge portion of the population. Russians and Han Chinese themselves have huge differences between each other.

>>516019655
Yes, taxes drive money. If you listen to a lot of the people who advocated and developed MMT like Warren Mosler, Stephanie Kelton, Randall Wray, none them seem too hot on welfare or free money in and of itself. They seem to like the idea of a federal jobs guarantee that acts as a sponge for unwanted or underskilled labor to engage in projects for the government that need doing around the country and can upskill people and put them back into the private sector that currently doesn't want them.

You can read Richard Werner, the German economist who wrote "Princes of the Yen", where he detailed how MITI would utilize credit guidance windows to steer central bank funding into strategic sectors to improve efficiencies and increase supply.

You can look at the wartime German program of material substitution, where heavy state investment was directed to coming up with alternatives as a result of shortages and embargoes. Things can be done to manage supply.

>>516020338
They are shabbos goyim. Again -- in a system that is not built around the benefit of its ethnic citizenry, and the success of billionaires is not tied to the success of this citizenry, you will develop a feedback loop of this happening especially if they can just go to another country who is just like yours. The root of the problem is the widespread lack of a country being defined by its ethnic citizenry, and that the country's entire existence revolves around the benefit of that citizenry. With that in place, and widespread utility among other countries, you are tying the success of the billionaire class to the success of the lower class within the same ethnic group.

>>516020417
It isn't about moving businesses out of the country. It's about moving ownership of the businesses out of the countries.
And in that, the US has been pioneering through BEPS in Ireland (Apple, Google etc etc etc).
Also, the OP is a leaf, not a burger.

>>516020199
>One time tax payment that's a miniscule amount of the added costs of socialist politicians.

The present value of an exit tax is equivalent to the expected future cash flows generated.

Say you had a 30% exit tax and a 30% income/dividend/capital-gains tax on the wealthy, whether they pay 30% in one lumpsum when they leave vs pay 30% on their profits forever is equivalent.

Imagine if instead of demanding the tax in cash, the government took in shares. A billionnaire with $1,000,000,000 in Amazon shares leaves the country, and gives a third of his shares to the Norweigian government. The Norweigian government will now collect a third of the profits on that $1,000,000,000 invested amount in perpetuity.

It would be identical to if he stayed in the country and paid a 30% tax on that $1,000,000,000

I don’t really care but you should vote for the least pro-Israel candidate if you still believe in muh vooting

>>516020745
>the government took in shares
No thanks. Communism has been a scourge and you on your isolated continent has clearly not seen its effects.

>>516020398
>That's hilarious. Can you explain what you think finance produces? Just more efficient allocation of resources?

Yes. There's a reason why banks and insurance companies exist and people use them. Corporations are just input/output machines. The profit generated is the difference between outputs and inputs. The reason finance is profitable is because we produce value.

In my case, I analyze investments for pension funds. I'm helping them more efficiently allocate capital, reduce risk, and generate a return on their investments. I'm paid because I provide value to the pension fund.

If the services I provided were worth less than what I was paid, I would be fired.

>>516020417
their ultra wealthy dont pay taxes either, they know how to tax evade and get exemptions
the whole 'Bezos paid no federal taxes' 'corporate welfare' thing

>>516017199
What are you talking about retard? Libertarians don't think you should be forced to trade with anyone.

>>516020929
I'm not saying they have to, I used that to demonstrate that a exit tax is equivalent in present value to taxing income of a resident.

A third of ones wealth today is equivalent in value to 1/3 of the future earnings on that wealth.

>>516020935
I'm sure it involves a hefty amount of government bond buying.

>>516020994
That's a myth, and it's unbelievably false.

>>516021160
I think we should run a surplus and decrease the amount of T-bonds but as they exist, we provide a service to investors by helping them allocate funds accordingly, and that does include T-bonds.

>>516020568
Socialism killed 50 million people in China via Mao. i think i'm just going to give up on you kind of people, you don't even do the most basic research on what you believe and then blurt out a lot of bullshit, you're sadly just not worth it because you don't give a fuck.

>>516007226 (OP)
50k a year? You qualify for nothing. You're paying for socialism for everybody else. That's how it works in the US. Even a ft job at minimum wage is too high earning for benefits. The only people that benefit from socialist measures in this cunt are the unemployed and people who work off the books (illegals). For the working person it'd be much better if you could just hang on to yourtax dollars.

Because your fellow working class people will never have the time/energy/care to back you up in giving a fuck and working to make a difference. idgaf, a singular flying fuck, about politics, because no policy has ever made things better for me, only worse; and no candidate has EVER platformed (or ever platformed AND gotten more than 2% of votes) on changing the issues that would make my life less shit.

the problems dont even have to do with the ultra rich. its the boomers holding onto wealth and estate for too long. and america being a country of lawfare so nothing gets built. china is pretty shit for most of the population but theyre also a nation of musk-like engineers who just fucking build. if you stopped propping up the boomers and starting building like 90% of the problems in the west would go away. the situation in france makes this more apparent. btw. mamdani himself is a retard who has zero relevant fiscal or housing policy. the most champagne socialist with no relevant platform but plays well for other wealthy socialites.

>>516017015
Whatever, you're trying to steal my money then. All socialists do is steal.
>>516017191
Hey buddy i don't want any of your money, how about you stop taxing everyone motherfucker.

>>516014086
who builds em bucko?

>>516021328
>50k a year? You qualify for nothing. You're paying for socialism for everybody else. That's how it works in the US. Even a ft job at minimum wage is too high earning for benefits. The only people that benefit from socialist measures in this cunt are the unemployed and people who work off the books (illegals). For the working person it'd be much better if you could just hang on to yourtax dollars.

Bringing down rent prices would benefit literally everyone except landlords. Someone earning $50k a year would absolutely benefit from lower rent prices.

>>516021288
But 'we" already do run a surplus. We are the private sector. The public deficit is a private surplus.

>>516017129
I presented the fact that the middle class do get taxed and you're lying, then you responded with an ad-hom, you lose, fuck off.

>>516017477
>1) the point of that was to maintain property value without having to raise rent; landlords are the ones who chose to raise prices just to make even more money
but the population changed, made the area inherently more valuable, and as a consequence raised property tax on rent controlled apartments. I won't argue that there isn't profiteering going on, but that isn't the entire issue.
2) despite that we still have millions of unused houses that only aren't being used because landlords are playing chicken with renters by refusing to lower prices to meet demand
As is their right, and they're not just playing chicken with renters, but with the government. I grew up in the bay area, nimby leftist faggots would screech about needing more affordable housing, but when it came time to build apartments next to their now $5 million dollar 1500 square foot ranch homes, they screeched again, and so day after day people had to drive three and a half hours each way into work if they wanted to afford a home.
3) that is a single, isolated policy surrounded on all sides by nothing, 0 government action.
the government literally, through zoning and nimby weaponization, created the entire issue and didn't allow the free market to fix the problem. There would be other problems like boom and bust cycles, but caveat emptor and all that. this is why I said you can't preempt the counterargument by mentioning it. It was the government that caused this, and expecting the same government with its same close-minded approach to things to fix it is retarded.

>>516021697
bro no one cares about anything you have to say, stop stealing from everyone or shut the fuck up

>>516021312
theyre all wealthy socialites who wont ever deal with the actual structural realities of socialism. they live in a permanent fairy tale. literally the most obnoxious class of people.

>>516021342
taxes hit your pocket directly, taxes need to be drastically reduced but no one does it.

>>516021904
I think a possible solution would be heavily invest new public housing in a lot of these Tier 3/4 cities that the rentier class have largely already hollowed out and abandoned anyway.

I think you amerimutts should not risk wealth redistribution because that can't possibly work unlike your current system which is obviously working very well. You simply have too much to lose, especially if you're poor.

>>516021740
Mises institute debunked this idea.

The private sector must foot the bill for government debt. When the government goes into debt, they issue a bond (asset) but the liability encompasses the entire society, it's the national debt that we all owe towards.

>>516022068
We're done with them, completely finished, they will be relegated to the history books, we will not negotiate any longer with murderers and thieves, they are aggressive and evil and lower than dogs.

>>516021697
If you want to "bring down rent" you have to increase the purchasing power of the currency or build more housing (to increase the supply of housing) or deport the foreigners (to increase the supply of housing). Or let the economy go through a deflationary phase to bring down down the assessed value of assets. A 20% interest rate on savings accounts would help with this. Unfortunately, there is no political will for any of my suggestions because line must go up.

>>516021851
You didn't post a single source or fact, you just repeated a false claim and insulted me. You are a joke with no argument.

>>516022203
Mises are Anarcho-Capitalists who despise socialism..

>>516022202
Yes because Europe works so well.

>>516022089
"government" spending needs to be drastically reduced.

>>516022300
>If you want to "bring down rent" you have to increase the purchasing power of the currency or build more housing (to increase the supply of housing)

Yeah that's literally exactly what the policy is. Governments will build rental units to increase the supply, and they will impose taxes on the rich to balance the budget and militate against the need to print money to finance said deficit. Taxing the rich will be a substitute to money printing.

>>516022315
You're ACTUALLY saying that the middle class don't get taxed? Buddy you aren't even in reality let alone a debate.

>>516022366
I know, but on this issue he's right.

I actually use Austrian Economics frameworks to support my ideas. I pulled a lot from them regarding Capital Theory and Interest Rate dynamics, I just came to a different conclusion.

>>516022482
If "governments" reduced spending they wouldn't have to steal as much through taxation.

>>516022481
Yep, 10% or less, also you should be able to choose how your tax money is spent every year, otherwise it's a fucking fraud and should be abolished, God bless you.

>>516022203
You don't need ever pay it off. Just keep rolling it over indefinitely. In fact, paying it off would be disastrous under our current arrangements because the only place it could come from is private sector savings.

>>516022485
>"No, minimum wage workers do pay tax on their earnings, though the amount they pay may be reduced or offset by tax credits like the Basic Personal Amount (BPA). While income tax deductions are taken from every dollar earned, the specific amount of tax owed is based on annual income. In some cases, like for those earning below a certain annual income, tax credits can effectively reduce their income tax to zero, but they still must file a return to claim these benefits. "

They get tax credits that net it to zero.

>>516016777
>these are example which hurt the working class who work as uber driver and work on farms.
ok but the only alternative anyone ever tells the working class person is "get a better job / get skills / start a business". But anyone who tries to do this fails because people don't wanna pay more for the same work, regardless of how many maga flags they have, none of them actually vote with their wallet. We have to have immigrants because middle class and above have meltdowns when prices ever so slightly increase (see the endless egg price threads) and then end up rushing policy that fucks over working class people and their businesses.

Middle class and above have so much more SHIT to maintain that they "can't" afford the smallest price increases, whereas us working class people hardly notice...still gonna be paycheck to paycheck either way, and the 30 year old car will keep running either way, and the roof keeps the water out so why fix it?

I know this isn't a completely ontopic response to YOU but I wanted to espouse my struggle.

>>516022633
They would still need to pay interest, debt repayment, military, federal courts, and border security.

>>516007226 (OP)
>Real communism has never been tried before

>>516022374
>EU
>socialism
EU is not socialist, that's just Fox News propaganda. Besides, my country was devastated in a war 30 years ago. US had no war on its land since the Civil war. I know Americans who moved here simply because it's not scuh a dystopia even though we technically make less money. The US has every condition for prosperity and its populace is tricked into choosing misery every time.

>>516022089
they'd have to be way higher for me to give a fuck. My rent is so absurdly high that the current tax rate is pennies in comparison.

>>516022866
Scandinavia.

>>516022738
Wouldn't have to pay interest if they were debtors. (So called "governments" should not be allowed to borrow.) The military budget could handle massive cuts if the military was only about defense and not maintaining a global empire. Border security is a tiny drop in the bucket. I'm sure there are many great ways to cut "government" spending.

>>516023199
*were not debtors

>>516022097
People are struggling to see a perceived benefit from aiding others, mainly because they can't afford to lose focus on their own meagre earnings. It's obviously by design, and part of why I think socialism is fucking stupid. The same group of entrenched elites (some call them jews, some capitalists, some globalists, etc.) would still control the government that now oversees and dispenses most peoples' resources necessary for their survival, and so they can never rebel or criticize without fear of being cast out into the cold by an uncaring and unforgiving and impenetrable bureaucracy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4sD-JDVwwQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0e4afZElBE

>>516022920
>EU is not socialist,

EU is absolutely socialist, you've been seeing too much CNN propaganda.

>I know Americans who moved here simply because it's not scuh a dystopia even though we technically make less money

Your country absolutely is a dystopia.

>>516023199
Ok but we still have to pay back the debt as it is.

And governments do sometimes need to borrow.

>>516007226 (OP)
>Canada used to be way more socialist
The number one household expense for Canadian families is already taxes. Canadians on average spend more on taxes (42.3%) than they do on basic household necessities (35.5%). If socialism worked, you’d already be reaping the benefits of it. Instead Canada is in economic decline in terms of per capita GDP which is a statistic highly correlated with overall standard of living.
https://www.fraserinstitute.org/commentary/taxes-remain-largest-single-expense-canadian-families
Go ahead and say
>Muh Frasier Institute is right wing
No shit, now attack the study and the data or shut the fuck up.

>>516022563
>I actually use Austrian Economics frameworks to support my ideas.
Lol that's actually interesting and pretty smart for a socialist, socialists are learning theory from Ancaps and us Ancaps are learning strategy from bolshevik communists, be careful though, read too much Mises and you might throw Marx in the trash and become an Ancap.

>>516023711
>The number one household expense for Canadian families is already taxes. Canadians on average spend more on taxes (42.3%) than they do on basic household necessities (35.5%).

And why are there taxes so high? We don't have socialism.

When we were socialist, taxes were much lower.

Can any of you econoniggers explain how is it not a capitalist plot that people can buy less shit for the same despite the increase in productivity?

>>516023569
>socialism
>you can literally buy stocks in every EU country
Just as Marx intended.

>>516022678
Thank you for your input ChatGPT but in reality the middle class do indeed pay taxes.

>>516023734
I used to be a libertarian. You should learn about discontinuity models. There are ways for governments to invest in wealth-generating macro-projects that yield a higher return than the cost of capital.

>>516023845
>Can any of you econoniggers explain how is it not a capitalist plot that people can buy less shit for the same despite the increase in productivity?

Because we haven't become more productive in every good, only some, and we can buy more of them (Iphones, Microwaves, etc).

We have become less productive in production of housing, medicine, and education due to red tape.

>>516023828
High taxes are the hallmark of a socialist economic model. I hate to break it to you but not western country is just going to outright announce they are socialist. It’s a spectrum from left to right, with the left extreme being full on Communism, and the right being full on Free Market, small government. Canada is definitely further into the socialist realm than say, the USA, but it’s not full on Communist like the USSR. That being said, high taxes to provide for “social programs” is definitely socialist. You have socialism, at least more so than you think, and it is absolutely not benefiting you. The main reason being that government jobs remove all efficiency incentives.

>>516022940
If your landlord didn't have to pay taxes rent would be lower.
State banking is the worst thing, they directly steal the value of your money and give it to Exxonmobile and Raytheon. I wouldn't be surprised if the real inflation numbers are 20% a year.

What this means in reality is that you have to pay 20% more for groceries each year but your assets and bank accounts only increase by 5% a year, so it's essentially an additional 15% tax on everything you own including money every single year, and that's in a GOOD financial year.

>>516007226 (OP)
None of that is Socialism, or is required to be implemented in a socialist society. The policies of Mamdani are more in line with Social Democracy, Keynesian economic theory and Rhine Capitalism.

Socialism is when the means of production is owned by the workers or the community as a whole.

Though in my opinion it is to do with it being owned by the workers exclusively. And it can only be communally owned if the community is the workers. Not some state or government that isn't controlled by workers. State owned, government owned, or community that is controlled by the few is something more akin to collectivism that isn't socialist.

Socialism doesn't mean higher taxes, or lower taxes
Socialism doesn't mean getting rid of guns
Socialism is not when LGBTQIA+ or Abortion
Socialism is not when internationalism, nor nationalism
Socialism is not when the party controls everything
Socialism doesn't even mean universal healthcare or public schools

Socialism is when you and your coworkers own your workplace collectively and can democratically decide how to run it, you can be your own bosses or vote in a boss. This workplace can work under a market oriented system (the same system we have now, and be for profit (you can already see this with many worker cooperatives working successfully)) or a more planned oriented system (where these workplaces cooperate together to create a better society, instead of for profit).

Tldr: Socialism is not what you think it is, liberals don't understand socialism, MIGAtards don't understand socialism, many on the right and the left don't understand socialism either. Don't listen to FOX News or CNN. Go read political theory.

>>516023907
What's 'cost of capital'? And what made you go from socialist to Libertarian? I used to be a socialist myself.

>>516024234
In UAE and Saudi Arabia, which are definitionally socialist (State owns the means of production, oil), the citizens pay ZERO tax. The State doesn't have to tax people because it generates so much revenue from oil dividends.

>>516007226 (OP)
You mean other than the fact that it has literally never worked?

>>516007226 (OP)
only if national one

>>516024282
Keynes is a commie bastard.
What you're talking about are worker coops which are allowed under capitalism but in practice are fucking garbage.

>>516023569
>we still have to pay back the debt as it is.
It is mathematically impossible without drastic spending cuts. They will default before they ever repay their debts.

>governments do sometimes need to borrow.
No. They don't. "governments" need to live within their means. The corporations masquerading as "governments" have proven themselves too irresponsible to be allowed the privilege of borrowing.

>>516024259
>If your landlord didn't have to pay taxes rent would be lower.
Imagine actually typing this.

>>516024282
You don't undersstand socialism and you've clearly been brainwashed by CNN. You should read way more.

Socialism is collective ownership over the means of production, taxes are an exertion of ownership. If corporations are taxed 30%, that is equivalent to if there was a 0% tax rate but the government owned a 30% stake in the company. The government being entitled to a third of before tax profits is economically identical to owning a third of it.

Mamdanis plan is for the government to own units, residential properties. These are means of production, they produce value for people. Means of Production refers to any economic value generator, it doesn't have to be a factory.

>>516024469
To people who the system doesn't currently work for, this is not really an argument.

>>516007226 (OP)
>why should I not embrace socialism
You should, especially that of the Nationalist type. Like some sort of Socialist Nationalism.

>>516024234
Central banking is one of Lenin's 10 goals of communism.

>>516024697
Is it true or not buddy? It's true so you can fuck your socialist ass. Socialists love high rents and property taxes.

>>516024234
The U.S. is a communist country, anon.

Property tax is the first plank to the communist manifesto and income tax is the second. Inheritance tax is the third plank, civil asset forfeiture is the fourth. Central banking is the fifth plank, car registration and radio loicensing is the sixth, zoning and planning and things like the CRP program are the seventh and ninth. "Free Education for All Children in Public Schools" is the tenth plank. (But don't tell Americans that they are communists. It just pisses them off.)

Cheers!

>>516024666
Government debt is not household debt. It does not work the same way.

>>516024761
It is because the system is socialist. You're asking for more dogshit on your plate.

>>516024436
The rate of borrowing. If governments can borrow at 2.5%, and they can estimate a project like a Port or an Interstate railroad to generate 8% a year in external GDP growth, then it is a value generating activity.

The other reason I'm a socialist actually came from Mises Institute itself, they explained how the deficit is "crowding out" the private sector. When governments borrow, they are siphoning capital out of the private sector. Cutting taxes on the rich but making up for that with borrowing does nothing to spur economic growth because you're replacing one form of wealth siphoning with another, in fact it's WORSE because only 50% of money held by the rich gets invested (on average) whereas nearly 100% of the capital borrowed in a bond issuance would have otherwise been invested.

If we taxed the wealthy and paid down the debt, we would reinsert money back into the capital markets. Banks and Pension funds that own our debt would now be forced to invest that money somewhere else, creating value and economic activity.

>>516024628
Great so you can get NATIONALLY taxed and NATIONALLY drafted to die in a war and NATIONALLY put in a slave camp, so much better.

>>516024666
>It is mathematically impossible without drastic spending cuts. They will default before they ever repay their debts.

It's not when you include monetary tools as well. If we balanced the budget we could get interest rates back down to 1-2%, and with inflation at 2% we would basically have a real interest rate of 0%.

If we axed social security, medicaid, and all the federal departments we could do it.

>>516024463
I think you're being purposefully dishonest, you and I know that socialism isn't an on/off switch, there are degrees of it, to the degree that the Saudi state owns corporations they are socialist, but they don't tax people at all so they are much more capitalist than socialist.

>>516025040
Canada used to borrow at 0% for public infrastructure. There is no requirement to pay interest on public debt. There is all kinds of reasons why you might want to -- so your pension funds get guaranteed zero risk returns :-) -- but it's not required through any natural law.

>>516024697
It's technically true but if the government can use the tax generated to build more housing units, that can lower rent. Overall the benefit would outweigh the cost because we'd have more housing units.

>>516024666
Also, governments need to borrow because sometimes they need to spend money immedietly (wartime) before tax revenues come in, but I agree they should pay it off as soon as possible after.

>>516024656
>Keynes is a commie bastard.

He wasn't communist, he can best be described as something akin to liberal to socialist. Although that doesn't make keynesian economics socialist.

Worker coops are socialist by definition. They are allowed under capitalism and their effectiveness is varied.

>>516007226 (OP)
I find it funny how you think politicians have any say. They do what they are getting paid to do, whether its indirectly or directly. This guy is already exhibiting AOC tendencies; when he ultimately wins and nothing changes or gets worse, please do not start migrating to other states. Stay where you are faggots

>>516025242
Ideally I'd like to shrink taxes. Part of why I support corporate tax and taxes on the wealthy is to offset taxes on lower income people who are more hurt by it, and to pay down the debt (so we pay less in tax for interest in the future).

>>516025259
That was because they were borrowing directly from the Bank of Canada, aka printing money.

And that wasn't all their borrowing. They also sold bonds to the private sector at given yields and market rate.

>so your pension funds get guaranteed zero risk returns

That should not be the function of government, welfare to risk-adverse investors paid for by taxes is not a function of government I like.

>>516024968
Yes, I haven't read Das Kapital but I'm sure there's a part about socialism allowing for literal trillionaires to do space travel while most young people can't afford being parents.

>>516025040
You were never a Libertarian if you didn't believe in the NAP, just an economist.
I don't steal and I won't be stolen from it's as simple as that.

>>516024951
A "government" taking on debt forces its subjects to violate God's laws by participating in a system that practices usury. So called "governments" should not be allowed to enslave their subjects through debt.

>>516025549
The state is the wealthiest entity in any given country, you've been scammed.

>>516025549
Trillionnaires aren't why most young people can't afford being parents

>>516025562
Fair, I was just someone who ascribed to the Chicago School of Economics and read a lot of Austrian literature. Also am a personal libertarian, I'm against seatbelt laws, helmet laws, for free speech, gun rights, etc.

>>516025173
>If we axed social security, medicaid, and all the federal departments we could do it.
Well finally. You're starting to make a little sense!

Buy an ad shitskin

>>516025663
Usury is the charging of interest, not the lending of money. At various points governments set specific rates of interest that would violate usury laws. But a debt in and of itself is not usury.

>>516025693
The why is the state permanently in debt to billionaires and social benefits are always discarded as an option for being too expensive?
>>516025699
So there is literally no correlation between more and more labor going to servicing luxuries for richfags and people getting poorer and poorer?

>>516007465
>it's just uses other people's money
Billionaire kikes aren't people

>>516013532
Faggot

>>516025699
>Chicago School of Economics
Man those guys, i guess they do some good but they're off the mark, read more Austrian and you will become an Ancap.
>Also am a personal libertarian, I'm against seatbelt laws, helmet laws, for free speech, gun rights, etc.
Alright that's actually based, don't think that's even possible with a large and therefore powerful state though.

>>516026008
>So there is literally no correlation between more and more labor going to servicing luxuries for richfags and people getting poorer and poorer?

The reason why people are rich is because they create value. Profit is the excess of outputs over inputs. If Jeff Bezos has $100bn it's because he created $100bn worth in value by taking inputs and producing more outputs. A business only earns profit by producing outputs that are more valuable than the total inputs.

So no, the fact that some people are very rich is not why others are poor. When you get rich in a market economy you are actively enriching others too.

>>516013848
>roads
Bad example, considering roads are barely maintained here in Canada

>>516009463
>more government
Burger brain at max capacity. You truly mirror your shabbos goyim orange retard of a president perfectly.

>>516026259
>Man those guys, i guess they do some good but they're off the mark, read more Austrian and you will become an Ancap.

I've read Rothbard, Menger, Mises, Hayek, what more?

>Alright that's actually based, don't think that's even possible with a large and therefore powerful state though.

Canada in the 1950s was close to this. There was no nanny state regulations, Canada used to be very much like the United States. The only thing that was different was we engaged in economic leftism.

State industrial policy was used, corporate taxes were 50%, the federal government outright owned railroads, airports, ports, and energy companies.

>>516026287
>When you get rich in a market economy you are actively enriching others too.
Ah trickle down economics forget I asked

>>516026008
>The why is the state permanently in debt to billionaires and social benefits are always discarded as an option for being too expensive?
You are making the mistake of thinking that big government and megacorporations are a different entity, they are the same entity, sometimes megacorporations even write the laws, and then big government destroys their competition.

>>516026529
Okay so why is the megacorporation then pretending to be too broke to pay for social benefits then?

>>516026504
The only reason as a socialist I oppose trickle down economics is because if we taxed the rich and repaid the debt, we would be putting the money BACK into the hands of investors, where it would also be invested, and we'd pay off debt.

Trickle Down Economics works though, people reinvesting their capital in search of profit do generate economic value. I don't see how anyone can deny this.