Thread 518857138

>spain risks another blackout
>because people stopped using their ACs
>so now we risk another overproduction of energy that will cause a surge
>and because we use all renewables we struggle to regulate it
genius idea whoever thought of that

Your problem is too much energy?

>>518857160
yes, unlike fossil fuels you cannot control how much sun there is so if the sun decides it wants to shine for a month straight we're just gonna overload the grid

>>518857138 (OP)
Don't worry, the Germans will be better prepared now.

>>518857301
>you cannot control how much sun there is
have you tried?

>>518857138 (OP)
notmyproblem.jpg

>>518857138 (OP)
Can't you just sell it? Like hook the power line to France and sell the excess to them?

>>518859433
no, because france justifiably doesn’t want that instability added to its grid

>>518859516
That's pretty rich coming from them given how fucked their government currently is. Welp spainards have to just enjoy being the guinea pig of the full green faggot doctrine.

>>518857138 (OP)
Stupid normie nigger level understanding tier.
All they say, its lies tranny, if you traverse reality giving validation to their inventions and lies you end up destroyed.
They simply shut down power because reasons faggot. They are testing things.
Repeat with me; its is for our own good.

>>518859913
Learn to write in English before posting, you reprobate.
If I had to grade those four lines of text they'd be full of red marks.

Anything but lowering electricity prices

>>518860241
Slave mentality.
Now i know youre a glowie faggot.

Can't they just automatically dump excess energy into some sort of machines that consume a lot of energy and do nothing?

>>518860394
I have a prepuce and I'm actively leeching off the system as I post.
Try again.
You have no pride and you're defacing our nation by not making proper use of a language.

>>518860429
Don't even trust those liars. Preventing overproduction would be as easy as halving the electricity bills. We are one of the poorest european countries and most people here consider AC or heating a luxury. Most people don't even use dryers for their clothes and practice sund drying instead. If electricity's price wasn't 50% taxes people would buy dryers and use the ac and shit.

>>518860429
They're meant to have giant flywheels to store the excess energy, but Spain cheaped out

>>518861331
>>518861336
Damn, I see now.

>>518857138 (OP)

>Spain risks blackout from overproduction of energy
>Romania risks bankruptcy from having the highest cost of energy in the EU, despite being a net producer of hydro and natural gas

I swear the EU is literally retarded. The only sane country on the continent energy-wise is France. Don't even mention those retarded krauts who allowed state-enforced terrorism on their strategic gas pipes just to 360 self own Putin, lmao. Just nuke us at this point, you'd be doing us a favor.

>>518857138 (OP)
Do we get slapped by your shitty electric grid again

>>518857138 (OP)
that's great desu. now we just need some batteries.

>>518862296
yes our cock will forever be lodged in your ass you fucking faggots

>>518862963
>yes our cock will forever be lodged in your ass you fucking faggots
>always thinking about gay shit
That's why you're having blackouts anon. And because our politicians want to be gay with you, we're also having blackouts.

>>518857138 (OP)
The levels of incompetency of the people at charge in this country is amazing.

>>518861336
we had to buy german-produced EU-sponsored solar panels, prease understand

>>518862400
yeah but we've known for years that nothing scales up that much for energy storage. now there's a 1.5 TERRAWATT shortfall of storage and people keep saying "idk pumped storage? trains?" and pretending it's ok to keep building generating capacity when scalable storage technologies DO NOT EXIST
it's a catastrophe and the people who caused it by overinvesting in renewables should be held culpable

>>518864620
even without energy storage, solar is dirt cheap and there is no reason to not install as much as you can. we still have plenty of gas, nuclear and hydro to cover all the consumption of the grid, but while solar is active much of that can be turned off.

>>518865652
this is true in southern spain and basically nowhere else
you still need a backup at night though
my problem is the cost is deceptive everywhere else as there is no scalable storage technology
they've been shrugging this off for 20 years and it's criminal, politicians should do time for building out generation when there's no viable storage

>>518865652
it's not about the cost, anon. You're overproducing renewable energy and there's nowhere to store said energy, so they have to run in through the network which risks overloading the entire system (that's why you had your blackout), Your retarded gov went all in on EU subsidies for renewables, but didn't think about some of the consequences of switching so much of the eng production on solar panels, in one of the sunniest countries on the planet. And no, you cannot just "turn off" your gas, nuclear or hydro while solar is active, that's not how things work lmao.

>>518866029
in spain we can just import cheap panels from china, so the cost is basically nothing.

>>518866058
you have no idea what you are talking about. nothing of what you wrote is even remotely true.

>>518857301
Wow and you can't even use a pump-storage cuse that requires charging through the night

>>518857301
Can't you just have like a big machine that consumes lots of energy and does nothing? Like belgium with an on/off switch

>>518863749
When was it? I want to understand which German government did that to you.

>>518866381
we have that like everybody else, but solar panels can just be disconnected from the grid without any negative consequences. the whole idea of muh solar overproduction damaging the grid is retarded.

>>518866299
You might want to check the data before becoming so emotional. Everything I said is backed by Spain's own grid operator, Red Electrica Espanola. Your country now regularly overproduces solar power during peak hours, so much so that the grid operator has to curtail renewables to prevent overloading. As for turning off nuclear or gas instantly - both are needed to maintain grid frequency and stability. Truth of the matter is that your country rushed into massive solar expansion thanks to EU subsidies, but storage capacity and grid modernization didn't keep up whatsoever.

You can look up everything I've just said. It's not a conspiracy or anything, it's literally what every energy report from RRE and the Ministry for the Ecological Transition has been saying for the past two years. It's the reason why you had a "historic" blackout in the first place. And it's why your grid will continue to massively fluctuate in the upcoming years. And it's all because of retarded EU bureaucrats who subsidize everything "green" without thinking for a second about the consequences.

>>518866188
you already mentioned the low cost,
and two anon just examined why the cost isn't the issue, you couldn't contend with either of our posts

>>518866642
here is what you do when you have solar "overproduction": you disconnect the panels. done, overproduction problem solved.
the blackout was not caused by that. the blackout was caused by a cascade failure that still has not been completely explained. this whole idea that it is impossible to deal with renewables producing more energy than needed is plainly absurb.
additionally, hydro, nuclear and gas turbines, our main sources of non-renewable energy, all of them can be spin up or down within minutes, which is all you need to deal with varying solar output. how else do you think that our grid functions every single day?

>>518857138 (OP)
>renewables work TOO well

>>518866978
>this whole idea that it is impossible to deal with renewables producing more energy than needed is plainly absurb
but you know there's a 1.5 terrawatt global shortfall in storage, and politicians have knowingly lied about storage technology that's been "near future" status for 20 years
so you must have been lying when you dismissed this concern as absurd

>>518857301
>sun decides it wants to shine for a month straight
Just cover the panels with tarpaulin?

>>518866978
>you disconnect the panels
shows how much you know
the net is always unstable, like balancing a pencil on its tip
it doesn't matter which way it swings, once it swings out too far or too fast, it's going down

>>518859582
Both France and Germany put a lot of effort into larping as serious countries, show some respect!

>>518867148
what i have been trying to explain to you is that even without storage, it is worth to use solar the time it is available. the energy output of solar peaks at midday but drops at other hours, so of course an optimal installation will overproduce during peak hours so that there is still a good production the rest of the day. and that's not a problem. why would it be? panels are dirt cheap.

>>518866978
That's a nice theory, but that's not how grid-scale balancing actually works. Hell, even your country's own grid operator would disagree with you. "Disconnecting panels" is exactly what curtailment is - and it's already happening regularly in Spain because of overproduction. The issue isn't that it's "impossible to deal with renewables", it's that it's simply inefficient and destabilizing when it happens too often. Every time you curtail solar or wind, you're throwing away subsidized energy and straining the grid's balancing reserves. It's not a magical "on/off" button you can press at whim. Your grid operator literally reports daily on how difficult it is to stabilize frequency when renewables exceed 70% of generation in mid-day hours.

As for "spinning up and down" your other energy sources, bruh. Nuclear plants cannot ramp output up or down within minutes, they're designed for constant baseload operations and it takes from hours to days to even readjust or restart after shutdown; gas and hydro can be scaled down and they do offer some form of flexibility, but they have minimum generation thresholds and water management constraints. And regarding the blackout - yes, the official explanation was a cascade failure, but it started coincidentally or not during a period of record solar surplus and grid stress from *drumrolls* renewables being dumped into the system. It's the exact kind of instability you get when the generation mix is unbalanced.

>>518857160
Most modern energy problems come down to batteries and energy storage not being ideal

>>518867305
gas takes minutes to tens of minutes to spin up from hot standby, hours from cold

>>518867297
sure, you have lots of sun and subsidies, I addressed this and made followup points here >>518866029
my problem is the cost is deceptive everywhere else as there is no scalable storage technology
they've been shrugging this off for 20 years and it's criminal, politicians should do time for building out generation when there's no viable storage

>>518857138 (OP)
>genius idea whoever thought of that
...as if any of this was or has been an accident

>>518867305
i am not denying that balancing energy production is hard, but it is doable and certainly worth the trouble, because what you get is extremely cheap energy during that time. so you cannot produce more than 70% from solar, you still need to keep the turbines spinning for the other 30% for grid stability, why exactly is that a problem? it is still worth to install as much solar as you can even if it means that at peak time you have to disconnect some of it.

>>518867305
why is it harder to manage the panels than a few gas plants? is it a problem of having too many small nodes? is that fixable with software? I would like to see the reports you're talking about, what should I look up, RRE or one of the ministries?

>>518867418
still doesn't make them suitable for handling large-scale solar volatility multiple times per day. You're proving my point. As for hydro, that will also be limited by basin capacity and water management rules. And guess what? The EU doesn't love anything as much as it loves rules. My country has 4 hydro plants that are 90% construction done that cannot be finished because of EU environmental rules. We're talking about the same Union that has banned the use of firewood as a heating source starting next year, lmao.

>>518867443
idk why you keep talking about subsidies, panel prices have dropped to the point where installation costs more than the panels themselves. in countries like spain where there is plenty of sun, there is no reason at all to not install as much of it as you can. same than china is doing, btw, and they are producing so much more energy and so much cheaper than the US that you will not be able to compete in AI or anything else.

>>518867663
yes, I don't disagree with you at all
just, faggots think gas is instant-on, it's not

>>518857301
Believe it or not the opposite of this is why big oil pushes so hard for solar and wind, and uses scare tactics against nuclear.
When solar/wind don't put out enough energy, demand for fossil fuels grows to cover the missing energy.
Nuclear is cheaper and they can just slow down the reaction if they need less energy.

>>518867629
Of course it's doable, but it's incredibly inefficient and creates systemic strain when it happens often. The fact that you have to curtail solar output daily means your generation mix is already outpacing your grid's flexibility. Sure, the marginal energy is cheap, very cheap, but only because the capital and subsidy costs are socialized while the curtailment losses are absorbed by the system operator. The grid can handle it for now, but you're already seeing frequency deviations, negative pricing, and wasted capacity - all symptoms of structural imbalance. Go ahead and install more solar, I'm not even arguing that it's bad (I have solar panels on my house), but pretending there's no downside to dumping gigawatts of unused power every afternoon isn't smart policy. It's the opposite of that. It's a sign that storage, interconnection, and baseload management aren't keeping up. And it's inviting a potential catastrophe to happen in the future.

Individual solar panels are good. But state-mandated renewables are yet another example of a socialist policy that requires state subsidies to survive. Many such cases!

>>518867647
It's harder to manage thousands of decentralized solar nodes than a few centralized gas or nuclear plants because of how inertia and frequency regulation work. Traditional gas plants provide rotational inertia, which stabilizes the grid frequency naturally. While solar and win feed in via inverters, which don't provide that physical inertia, so frequency can swing more rapidly when production fluctuates. There's no synchronous generation and dispatchable control, you still need storage and fast-reacting backup to absorb shocks.

If you want to find out more, check the REE monthly and annual electric system report, they usually keep their numbers up to date on their website, it's actually quite informative.

>>518867727
china is structurally and culturally incapable of innovation kek
what a revealing subject change
it's clear there's an international element to politicians continuously building out generation with no hope of corresponding storage. they want westerners to demand deindustrialization. it's not going to happen here.

>>518868245
cheers

>>518868271
The only "innovation" you clowns have made in the past 20 years are new schemes and tricks on how to shovel wealth from the 99% goycattle to the top 1% without the goycattle noticing.

>>518868245
>pretending there's no downside to dumping gigawatts of unused power every afternoon isn't smart policy. It's the opposite of that. It's a sign that storage, interconnection, and baseload management aren't keeping up. And it's inviting a potential catastrophe to happen in the future.
i think it is pretty much for a country that produces no gas or oil to reduce as much as possible its dependency on it. sure, there are technical challenges and risks to doing that, but these are problems can and are being solved. the reason we still don't know why the blackout really happened is precisely because there are so many contingencies to prevent something like this from happening, and whatever happened is extremely unusual, not a matter of fact of using renewables.

>>518868271
>they want westerners to demand deindustrialization.

Ironically enough, in the EU the EU itself demands deindustrialization from its citizens. All the "green" policies promoted by Brussels have done thing else but chip away at Europe's industrial base, driving energy prices up, and push production abroad, to China, India, and the US. As a personal example, my country has one of the largest hydro and gas production capacities in Europe (+a sizable chunk of renewables), yet we have the highest price of energy in the western world. Why? Because the EU decided to liberalize the energy costs union-wide a couple of years ago, so the production companies had to readjust their local prices to match with western bidders.

What's sold as a "green transition" has in practice turned into a managed decline of European competitiveness. Industries that once powered the continent (just look at Germany lmao) are now shutting down or relocating because they can't compete under Brussels' climate diktats, carbon taxes, and the high energy costs caused by the state-enforced terrorist act on Nordstream2. It's economic self-sabotage dressed up as a fucking virtue, brought to you by the Karens that rule the EU.

>>518868690
thanks for your opinion but you're a communist, get back to me when your frontal lobes have solidified and you've paid your taxes at least twice.
innovation is objectively measurable by the way. stew on that before trying to gaslight everyone and making a fool of yourself. cathay delenda est.

>>518868745
pic very much related, forgot about it.

>>518868745
germany would be fine if they still had access to russian gas. yes, it is self-sabotage, because we have become so dependent on the US that our politicians are terrified of being cut off from them, because unlike china, we cannot fight back. that's the real problem here, not brussels pushing green energy that reduces our dependency on the US.

>>518857301
Solar power plants can be taken off the grid to deal with over capacity. Thy can do this faster than fossil fuel plants in fact since it's all electronic.

>>518868745
the soviets propped up eu green parties for decades, now china dumps ecohazard panels and windmills on the eu basically for free, it's all the same thing. you're right though, I don't want anyone letting the traitors within off the hook.
>>518868960
>bucharest
HOW

>>518869161
It's all fine and dandy but there's a paradox in your argument: Europe didn't gain independence via it's green policies, it just switched dependencies. Cutting off Russian gas didn't make the EU sovereign, it made it dependent on American LGN, bought at two to three times the old pipeline prices. At the same time, the "green transition" isn't really reducing that dependency, because Europe doesn't produce its own solar panels, wind turbines, or batter components - it imports them from China.

So the end result is not energy sovereignty, but a reshuffled hierarchy: Europe pays Washington for gas and Beijing for renewable hardware, while strangling its own industry with policies written in Brussels. Truly multicultural, if you ask me. But regardless, that's not strategic autonomy, it's managed dependence under a moral label, unironically.

>>518857138 (OP)
They need to use a battery plant to stabilize the grid.

>>518867727
>same than china is doing
Nigger china has been cosistently bringing 2GW worth of electricity from new COAL power plants on line every WEEK for past decade and shows no sign of slowing down. Are you stupid or payed?

>>518869353
>HOW

EU-mandated liberalization of the energy market, basically the EU forced all member states to liberalize the energy costs union-wide, which forced the local production companies to readjust their prices to match western bidders. The entire market is now dependent on "marginal pricing", so it doesn't matter if you're a net producer of energy as Romania is, you're still paying the same price as a country that doesn't produce energy whatsoever. Clever, isn't it? The gov tried to keep the price down for the last couple of years by further subsidizing the final consumer cost, but starting this year the subsidies have ran dry and millions of Romanians will have to pay triple or four time the price this winter for energy. All while we produce more energy than we consume.

>>518869353
It's a double trick because it's not measuring electricity by kWh but "household energy price indenx" and then indexing that index to purchasing power standard. Basically electricity costs lot in romania because they are poor and live in hovels even though the actual price of electricity in Romania is one of the cheapest in Europe.

Make it 2 weeks this time

>>518869399
the EU didn't cut off russia, we were forced to cut off from russia by the US. they started the war and they blew the pipeline. that's an important detail that we should not forget.

we used to produce a significant amount of solar panels in europe, we just can't compete with china anymore. but ultimately, we don't need to depend on them to source our renewables, the technology to build them here exists, and could be restarted if there was a political will to do so. though, at the moment there are more pressing matters, so it is understandable that the choice is to buy cheaper panels from china instead.

>>518857301
Nigger just unplug it!

>>518869634
they installed more solar than the rest of the world combined. their use of coal is dropping and being largely replaced with renewables. don't be so gullible to fall for the propaganda.

>>518857160
Yeah, batteries suck.
Most energy infrastructure is already damaged from trying to send energy back up the grid too, they aren't designed to do that.

>>518869670
that's partly true, but it misses the key point. Yes, Eurostat's Household Energy price Index adjusts prices by PPS, which is why poorer countries appear more expensive relative to income. But even in nominal terms, measured in euro cents per kWh, not adjusted, Romania's electricity prices have been consistently above the EU average since 2022, despite being a net energy exporter.

In 2023 Romanian household paid about 0.31 eurocents/kWh, compared to an EU average of 0.28/kWh. So no, it's not just about poverty, it's about market liberalization and wholesale pricing. Producers sell at EU market rates, while local consumers pay the same inflated price, even though production costs are much lower. One of Europe's top energy producers is paying one of Europe''s highest consumer prices, despite the country being significantly poorer than the rest of the union. That's not a statistical illusion, it's a policy failure.

>>518857301
Oil and gas isn't fossil, retard
Stop calling it that, it's the pathway to own nothing and be very unhappy.
CO2 climate bullshit is a religion and a hoax to cull cattle

>>518869653
that sucks
you should bring back cross border raids until the situation improves
>>518869670
oh ok
definitely still an issue
if you want your friends to catch up economically you should flood them with cheap energy, and that means cheap from a local purchasing standpoint

>>518857138 (OP)
Make Hydrogen out of it using electrolysis and sell it to Germany.
I want 10% of the revenue faggots

>>518869911
That is just simply not true. In 2023 the price of electricity in EU was 23.9 cents per kwh and in romania it was 14.3

>>518870124
Romanian energy is one of the cheapest in Europe already.

>>518869844
your charts stops in 2023 and shows nominal coal power continually increasing

>>518870281
if anything, they are beating the forecast. the amount of renewables that china is installing is absurd, as i already said, more than the rest of the world combined.

>>518870281
>>518870404
example pic rel

>>518870205
>Romanian energy is one of the cheapest in Europe already
while technically true, this was not an honest reply to what I posted.

>>518870205
You're quoting the Eurostat nominal average - which includes price caps and compensations applied by national governments. Romania's lower "headline" price is a result of heavy state subsidies, not an actual cheap market. I mentioned this here >>518869653 . The regulated household price (AFTER subsidies) was indeed around 0.14/kWh in 2023, but the market price before compensation - what suppliers and the state actually paid on the wholesale liberalized market - hovered around 0.28-0.32/kWh, well above the EU average. That's exactly why the Romanian government had to spend billions to freeze household bills, because the real cost of production and supply wasn't low.

What you are quoting there is a subsidized number, but that doesn't change the structural problem: Romania is a net exporter of cheap energy, while it imports expensive electricity prices through EU market liberalization. My energy bill has tripled since the start of the year, why the fuck would I lie about the electricity prices in Romania when it severely impacts me as well? Do you want me to provide extra sources just to prove that we're getting absolutely fucked on the "free" energy market?

>>518870503
Romanians high prices are result of Romanian taxes actually. My figures are without subsidies by Eurostat.
>why the fuck would I lie about the electricity prices in Romania when it severely impacts me as well?
Probably due to your low IQ

>>518870628
if you want to argue in good faith then I'm all up for it, but if you want to act like a retarded autistic finnoid they you can be my guest and fuck off back to your asperger-infused shithole of a country.

>>518870404
>I just feel like they're on track
lol ok
you know they can't replace coal with renewables because the scalable storage technology doesn't exist.
even if they somehow eliminated their structural and cultural barriers to innovation, everyone else will beat them simply by having datacenters that run at night lol. you can too if you get your shit together, politically speaking.

>>518870463
that's not nominal it's relative
they're not going to stop bringing coal online until they can properly replace it with nuclear which would require more cooperation with western researchers and engineers, and would also require said westerners to stop falling for the green scam and wasting all our engineering talent and money

>>518857301
uhm... how about selling your energy to portugal or france?

>>518870628
so it doesn't include subsidies by the romanian government?
then why did you say "without EUROSTAT subsidies as if to confirm and deflect from the fact that the low figure is after romanian government subsidies?
watching the redistributing of wealth among romanians from afar is not the same as helping your disadvantaged friends grow their industrial output.

>>518870955
relative is what matters

>>518871687
>I concede czechanon was right
got it
cathay delenda est