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Anonymous (ID: 6rYTiT0j) No.519628860 [Report] >>519628974 >>519629006 >>519629049 >>519629085 >>519629153 >>519629157 >>519629671 >>519629840 >>519630589 >>519630973 >>519631000 >>519631005 >>519631281 >>519632134 >>519632992 >>519633158 >>519633444 >>519634422 >>519635340 >>519636997 >>519637518 >>519637784 >>519638003 >>519639159 >>519645136 >>519647320
Does the Bible support free will or predestination?
Anonymous (ID: G3zAFc1h) United States No.519628935 [Report] >>519640791
Neither one. It supports you becoming a slave of jews.
Anonymous (ID: 8EWRApJw) Switzerland No.519628973 [Report] >>519629147 >>519629798 >>519639264 >>519644560
Anonymous (ID: 8CIXVQfF) United States No.519628974 [Report]
>>519628860 (OP)
Depends on who you ask
Anonymous (ID: HsJbMI3o) Israel No.519629006 [Report] >>519629049 >>519636443
>>519628860 (OP)
Anonymous (ID: +sg9TsYZ) United States No.519629049 [Report]
>>519629006
>>519628860 (OP)
samefag
Anonymous (ID: tWj4erKb) United Kingdom No.519629085 [Report]
>>519628860 (OP)
Free will within the confines of the universe
Anonymous (ID: EegC36vX) United States No.519629129 [Report]
Hm. If Quinton Tarantino can direct pulp fiction in such a way it draws parallels in the same fashion as new testament to old, im certain free will and predestination work in tandem as well. ...lol lmao
Anonymous (ID: G3zAFc1h) United States No.519629147 [Report] >>519638914
>>519628973
I need to play that again. It's getting cold out
Anonymous (ID: 8k8SpJdU) Canada No.519629153 [Report] >>519629233 >>519629671 >>519631971 >>519642547
>>519628860 (OP)
Neither because it’s inherently contradictory in the framework of God being all knowing and all powerful. If we are predestined then everybody going to hell was damned from the very beginning. If we have free will that is true free will then God isn’t all knowing and thus may or may not be all powerful.
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519629157 [Report] >>519629245 >>519642693
>>519628860 (OP)
freewill is not an either or proposition. the Bible teaches that our freewill is limited in scope while Gods is maximally free. Human will, post fall, is in bondage to sin because our natures are corrupted. God says this many time even in Genesis. But that doesn't mean the standard of perfection required to counted righteous has changed, because it hasn't. Thats why, in the end, God had to come and live the perfect life for us, since we could never do it ourselves and avoid damnation.
Anonymous (ID: VIKTt8gd) United States No.519629214 [Report]
>there is nothing new under the sun
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519629233 [Report] >>519629522 >>519629953
>>519629153
even if absolute freewill was the case, how does that necessitate that God doesn't know what you're going to do? it doesnt really if you think about it
Anonymous (ID: U0RA442T) United States No.519629245 [Report]
>>519629157
Well said.
Anonymous (ID: 8k8SpJdU) Canada No.519629522 [Report] >>519630339 >>519632329
>>519629233
Because free will implies you have the ultimate choice of X or Y, if God already knows then it isn’t free will and is an illusion. In my opinion, there is no true free will in this universe but we have limited free will in the same way a game is coded in such a way that there are permutations of what a random npc will randomly in that game session (a specific timeline). In that case, that random npc could in this timeline go to hell by picking the wrong choices, while that same npc in another timeline pics the right choices and goes to heaven, God knows that as well. God knows every permutation in every timeline, we have free will but we don’t at the same time.
Anonymous (ID: ebCPogFY) United States No.519629671 [Report] >>519629833 >>519631107
>>519628860 (OP)
>Does bible...?
>Pic of just the first 5 books
>memeflag
Sus

>>519629153
>Foreknowledge means the knower made it happen
Anonymous (ID: Qo3WRK7g) Finland No.519629798 [Report]
>>519628973
YOU ARE READING MY MIIIIND
Anonymous (ID: 8k8SpJdU) Canada No.519629833 [Report] >>519630048 >>519630652
>>519629671
Yes because he knew about it. Isn’t your God all powerful?
Anonymous (ID: o+PoQ/73) United States No.519629840 [Report]
>>519628860 (OP)
apparently everyone gets resurrected in the world to come
*shrug*
Anonymous (ID: op5U4a5B) United States No.519629953 [Report] >>519630072 >>519630339
>>519629233
I'm of the belief that an all-knowing and all powerful God would just bend reality to whatever you choose. So, if he wants a certain outcome in the bigger picture, you're still free to act however you see fit, but it'll get woven into his desired outcome. It's like seeing every single possibility at all times and still making it work. Such is the infinite nature of God.
Anonymous (ID: o+PoQ/73) United States No.519630048 [Report] >>519630332 >>519633772
>>519629833
in 20 seconds I'm going to rip a super smelly fart in this elevator
remember, you knew ahead of time
that means it's your fault
Anonymous (ID: U0RA442T) United States No.519630072 [Report]
>>519629953
>you're still free to act however you see fit, but it'll get woven into his desired outcome. It's like seeing every single possibility at all times and still making it work.
Exactly.

People have forgotten what omnipotence means.
Anonymous (ID: 8k8SpJdU) Canada No.519630332 [Report] >>519630423
>>519630048
I’m not all powerful so your example is irrelevant
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519630339 [Report] >>519630839 >>519631081
>>519629522
>if God already knows then it isn’t free will and is an illusion
why though? if God is merely observing all points in time without influencing anything, then your choice is still free. its simply already been observed.
> we have limited free will
i agree so far as that one statement goes, but i dont believe in multiple timelines. Its just not something that fits in with the Biblical picture. It says that we cant even choose to come to Jesus unless the Father first draws us to Him. Thats how limited out freewill is in the most important area of all.

>>519629953
The Bible seems to indicate that instead of bending things to what you choose, He simply guides the wants and actions of people. im not sure if thats a constant and all pervasive thing, and theres probably a bit of both wills acting. but it could be. He also has been known to use the evil choices of people to attain His own good ends. its a very strange subject really because in the end how can we really come to grasps with the activities and powers of an infinite being?
Anonymous (ID: o+PoQ/73) United States No.519630423 [Report] >>519632008 >>519633772
>>519630332
you forgot to explain why that changes anything so I'm forced to conclude it does not change anything, and you are responsible. I've informed everyone in the elevator that it's your fault.
Anonymous (ID: FTO+Npkw) United States No.519630589 [Report] >>519639055 >>519642817
>>519628860 (OP)
Free will under God's sovereignty
Genesis
3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and
that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to
make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and
gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Revelation
1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the
Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the
Almighty.
Anonymous (ID: ebCPogFY) United States No.519630652 [Report] >>519630938
>>519629833
Why is power a factor? I know how this conversation on free will goes. Do I have power over you?
Anonymous (ID: 8k8SpJdU) Canada No.519630839 [Report] >>519631271
>>519630339
>why
Nearly all of our choices are from external pressures. So God has a say in what we do and therefore it is not true free will. In my opinion, only God has true free will, we have limited free will and the concept of timelines and the multiverse fits well because it means God isn’t an evil being if he would damn us to hell from the get go in a single timeline. One self goes to hell due to choices God already knew they were going to make, another self goes to heaven to due to choices God already knew they were going to make. God intervenes to help you in one given period of time in this timeline, and he doesn’t in the other timeline.
Anonymous (ID: 8k8SpJdU) Canada No.519630938 [Report] >>519631389 >>519634296
>>519630652
Because if God is all knowing then he must be logically all powerful.
Anonymous (ID: q/QV6t2g) United States No.519630973 [Report]
>>519628860 (OP)
both, you can do whatever you want but God knows what you will do before you do it and plans accordingly
Anonymous (ID: 4ZMb+NZi) Chile No.519631000 [Report] >>519631143
>>519628860 (OP)
No, the Torah does not support this. Yahweh is described as having a legion of spirits at his command, including spirits of madness, disease, lies, and discord, which he constantly uses to co-opt free will. One example is Saul; Yahweh commands a spirit of madness to follow him, precipitating his downfall.
The truth is that free will does not fit with monotheism; they are opposites.
Anonymous (ID: 304in/n6) No.519631005 [Report]
>>519628860 (OP)
Who cares? It's Jewish shite?
Anonymous (ID: op5U4a5B) United States No.519631081 [Report] >>519631759 >>519637321
>>519630339
You could argue that since The Bible is the intent to establish God and his history and lessons, that he had to take a more direct hand in guiding certain people. Take Jonah, for instance. He still had the free will to try to escape what God wanted him to do, but God brought him back through a sea creature to do the mission anyway. He does what God wanted him to do, but isn't happy about it, and the story ends on a lesson of God's applied mercy. Does Jonah learn anything from it, was it right to force his hand? We don't really know, but seeing as how billions of people have read the story since then, a bit of intervention might be warranted. And even still, God invites Jonah to decide for himself if the people deserved to be spared and doesn't force him to choose an answer.
Anonymous (ID: 304in/n6) No.519631107 [Report] >>519634296
>>519629671
>>Foreknowledge means the knower made it happen
If he also created everything then, yes, that is what that means
Anonymous (ID: 8k8SpJdU) Canada No.519631143 [Report] >>519631460
>>519631000
I agree, it’s either free will and there is no God, or limited free will plus omniscient and omnipresent God. Paganism is of course the most ridiculous belief system with only Hindus sticking out for it in 2025 AD.
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519631271 [Report] >>519631638
>>519630839
>In my opinion, only God has true free will, we have limited free will
im with you this far
i just dont see all the timeline thing in the Bible. it says that God saves who He wants to save and doesn't save the rest. its difficult stuff i dont deny it, but its an infinite being we're dealing with here and we dont really know what he's up to on the grand scale of things. it could seem nasty and evil to us on our tiny low down level but that may not be the case.
>Nearly all of our choices are from external pressures. So God has a say in what we do and therefore it is not true free will.
but what if God is merely observing. im not saying i believe that, but im just trying to separate foreknowledge from causation.

what i actualyl believe is that God knew every single thing what would happen from before He created anything, knowing that if He created in a certain way that all else would follow. In that way i think He has determined absolutely everything in all time...plus the interventions He stages, the scope of which im not sure about.
Anonymous (ID: fT+E7loW) United States No.519631281 [Report]
>>519628860 (OP)
free will isn't free and your bible is mistranslated and misinterpreted.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MPHyR92MQic
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519631389 [Report] >>519631871
>>519630938
could it be possiible for a being to know everything and yet not have the power to effect everything at all places and times? again, i dont belivee this about God, but i dont see the necessary connection between all knowledge and all power
Anonymous (ID: 4ZMb+NZi) Chile No.519631460 [Report] >>519631556 >>519631815
>>519631143
All axial religions (not only Abrahamic but also Dharmic) are ridiculous. They created a problem where there was none, and they seek to provide the solution to the problem.
In ancient animism (pre-Orphic/pre-paganism), the issue of free will was not important, and freedom was understood simply as not being a slave.
Anonymous (ID: 304in/n6) No.519631556 [Report] >>519631762
>>519631460
Exactly, of course there is "free will"
A man chooses, a slave obeys
Anonymous (ID: U0RA442T) United States No.519631638 [Report] >>519631963
>>519631271
I think we must have freewill, otherwise what is repentance? What would be the purpose of preaching the Gospel to the unconverted if they could not choose Christ over mammon?

I also think that our very consciousness itself is evidence that we have freewill.
For the very fact that we are aware of choice means that we can choose.
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519631759 [Report]
>>519631081
the interplay of wills is definitely an interesting aspect of biblical study. He has definitely caused people to do certain things at certain times. we can see that clearly spelled out. But He also decided that He would do that from before creation....the creation that He determined would lead to someone like Jonah, to take your example. Did God make it so that He would have to intervene with Jonah to bring about the eventual outcome which He wanted, knowing that Jonah would choose the right way given the pre-determined intervention of the whale etc? probably. And yet Jonah, like any of us, still feels that he has a choice.
Anonymous (ID: FTO+Npkw) United States No.519631762 [Report]
>>519631556
A man also knows his limitations and the purpose of life. Free will is not free choice; the use of your will is being free from your proclivities.
Anonymous (ID: 8k8SpJdU) Canada No.519631815 [Report] >>519632292
>>519631460
Yes it isnt a problem if you’re a God less atheist. Now paganism, is just worshipping of space ayys larping as God. Monotheism is metaphysical and way more interesting than atheism and paganism.
Anonymous (ID: 8k8SpJdU) Canada No.519631871 [Report] >>519632008 >>519632107
>>519631389
No because knowledge is power. :)
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519631963 [Report] >>519632057
>>519631638
>otherwise what is repentance?
a gift
>What would be the purpose of preaching the Gospel to the unconverted if they could not choose Christ over mammon?
its simply Gods chosen mechanism through which the gift is given. thats the only way to make sense of it given such clear passages that describe the total inability of Man to come to Christ.
Anonymous (ID: OHObNCPp) United States No.519631971 [Report] >>519632165 >>519632500 >>519638789
>>519629153
Wrong. You are just a brainlet whose brain is too simple and smooth to understand complex ideas.
Our observations of quantum effects show the mechanism which God has created to allow free will and have proven beyond doubt that the universe is NOT deterministic.
For every particle in the entire universe, all future positions/states of that particle exist simultaneously in a state of quantum superposition. And not in a hypothetical/philosophical way because they haven't happened yet, all of those future timelines exist in a real enough way to cause interference with each other.
The superposition only collapses down into a single state and position when the particle interacts with some other part of the universe which causes its state/position to be fixed and certain.
And it isn't just for subatomic particles, the same thing happens with larger more complex systems. Scientists have successfully conducted the double slit experiment with molecules comprising hundreds of atoms, and the same patterns emerge. But the quantum wavelength depends on the mass and velocity, and as you use larger and slower objects, the scale of the experiment grows unwieldy. You could successfully conduct the double slit experiment with much larger objects, like throwing footballs through slits, but you would need to set up a target screen multiple light years away to see the interference patterns emerge.
There is not one timeline. God didn't create one single timeline, and he didn't set the universe in motion in a knowable, fixed, deterministic way.
God created a universe where all possible future timelines exist simultaneously. God didn't write a novel where there is one, fixed, pre-existing plotline for the reader to follow. God wrote one of those choose your own adventure books, and leaves it up to the reader to freely choose which plotline to follow.
This is the mechanism by which an all powerful, all knowing God created a universe where the inhabitants have true free will.
Anonymous (ID: o+PoQ/73) United States No.519632008 [Report]
>>519631871
>>519630423
Anonymous (ID: U0RA442T) United States No.519632057 [Report] >>519632500
>>519631963
Do you not agree that awareness of choice implies the ability to choose?
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519632107 [Report] >>519633534
>>519631871
but it is not the ability to do anything. knowing what happens on the other side of the galaxy doesn't imply that you have the ability to snap your fingers and do anything about it. see what i mean?
Anonymous (ID: 5lY54Raq) United States No.519632134 [Report]
>>519628860 (OP)
Anonymous (ID: 8k8SpJdU) Canada No.519632165 [Report] >>519633015
>>519631971
>God created a universe where all possible future timelines exist simultaneously
That’s what I believe dingus. All those timelines are deterministic, otherwise God isn’t God.
Anonymous (ID: 4ZMb+NZi) Chile No.519632292 [Report]
>>519631815
>you’re a God less atheist
It is also a problem... the problem between determinism versus objectivism.
>Monotheism is metaphysical and way more interesting than atheism and paganism.
Abrahamic monotheism is worshiping an idol of letters, a creature made through abstractionism. Yahweh is illogical and meaningless; anything that has no form, shape, or location falls into the category of being a concept, and concepts do not exist.
Anonymous (ID: OHObNCPp) United States No.519632329 [Report] >>519632502 >>519633772
>>519629522
>if God already knows then it isn’t free will and is an illusion
No it doesn't, you brainlet.
I know that my buddy is going to go to the bar tonight and get drunk and make a fool of himself.
My knowledge that he is going to do a thing is not what causes him to do a thing.
And even if you want to say that I don't askshully know for sure that he is going to go to the bar and get drunk tonight, even if it is a probability density function and 9 times out of 10 he will go to to the bar and get drunk, that information is still not what causes him to go 9 times out of 10.
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519632500 [Report] >>519633273 >>519633454 >>519634409
>>519631971
>This is the mechanism by which an all powerful, all knowing God created a universe where the inhabitants have true free will.
and yet according to some, because God naturally knows everything about each of these supposed timelines, that still means freewill doesn't exist.

>>519632057
no i dont actually, at least not in the one thing which is most important, which is obeying God and choosing to have faith in Christ. If Jesus tells me that no one can come to Him except the Father draw him, then i believe that. He told people often enough that they were unable to believe in Him. I think THAT is the real limitation of our wills, and that is why God had to come live the perfect life for us - because our fallen natures simply cannot choose to obey the law as we should.
Anonymous (ID: 8k8SpJdU) Canada No.519632502 [Report] >>519632923 >>519633078
>>519632329
This is low iq drivel
Anonymous (ID: o+PoQ/73) United States No.519632923 [Report] >>519633026
>>519632502
it should be easy for you to contend with then.
instead of shamelessly conceding like that, just like you did with me.
you failed to defend your argument and were proven wrong, whether you admit it or not.
Anonymous (ID: ileDOtfu) No.519632992 [Report]
>>519628860 (OP)
Both.
Anonymous (ID: OHObNCPp) United States No.519633015 [Report] >>519633085 >>519633254
>>519632165
>All those timelines are deterministic, otherwise God isn’t God.
The existence of infinite possible timelines, each of which also branches out into infinite possible timelines, means that the whole thing is extremely non deterministic. Even if things like classical newtonian mechanics determine paths within each of those timeline, the actual path a particle will follow will depend on things like probability, randomness, or free will.
Anonymous (ID: 8k8SpJdU) Canada No.519633026 [Report] >>519633772
>>519632923
You didn’t prove anything wrong. You’re a pseud.
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519633078 [Report] >>519633159
>>519632502
not really.....because there really isn't a connection between knowing a thing and causing a thing. if my solar satellite sees a solar flare happen and sends that information back to me on earth, ive in now way caused that flare to happen. ive merely observed it.
Thats one way of thinking about how God sees all of time and in that case, His total knowledge would not mean He had anything to d with your choice.
Anonymous (ID: 8k8SpJdU) Canada No.519633085 [Report] >>519633971
>>519633015
God isn’t God then.
Anonymous (ID: n8RrK1OX) Latvia No.519633158 [Report]
>>519628860 (OP)
Rhey believe in free will. It's true that the people who believe in absolute free will have the least of it.
Anonymous (ID: 8k8SpJdU) Canada No.519633159 [Report] >>519633386
>>519633078
>applying your experiences to God
No. Sorry.
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519633254 [Report] >>519633873
>>519633015
>he whole thing is extremely non deterministic.
from our perspective. if we are talking about God, that which non greater can be conceived, then are we really saying that He doesn't know? Look, if He did actually do it like that then great...but perhaps its only to give us the impression that we have a freer will that we really do. i dont know, but there is no scenario in which the facts of physics mean that God doesn't know or get a say in what happens.
Anonymous (ID: U0RA442T) United States No.519633273 [Report] >>519633636
>>519632500
>Jesus tells me that no one can come to Him except the Father draw him
Fair enough. But does not God will that none should perish?

Will not all of humanity have heard The Gospel before the end?
Is that not The Father drawing them?

At the same time however, I'm reminded of these scriptures:

>Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
>What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
>And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory
-Romans 9:21-23

>According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
>Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will
-Ephesians 1:4-5
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519633386 [Report]
>>519633159
we are always required to create analogies when talking about this stuff anon, its just the way it is. they are always weak and always terribly limited but what else can we do if we want to try discussing things?
Im just really not sure that there is a necessary connection between foreknowledge and determinism
Anonymous (ID: q7yHilIc) United States No.519633444 [Report]
>>519628860 (OP)
Free will ultimately cannot exist with the type of omnipotent monotheistic creator god depicted in the Old Testament.
People have been debating for 2,000 years whether Jesus was talking about something else.
Anonymous (ID: OHObNCPp) United States No.519633454 [Report]
>>519632500
>and yet according to some, because God naturally knows everything about each of these supposed timelines, that still means freewill doesn't exist.
Knowing about a thing isn't what causes that thing to exist, outside of philosophical mental masturbation thought experiments. If a tree falls in the woods, yes, it does in fact make a physical sound even if no one is there to hear it.
Anonymous (ID: 8k8SpJdU) Canada No.519633534 [Report] >>519634114
>>519632107
If God is all powerful but not all knowing then he isn’t God and is therefore a created being, created by a being that is all powerful and all knowing: if God is all knowing but not all powerful then that doesn’t make any sense at all since being all knowing implies he is an all powerful being because knowing everything requires a lot of power.
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519633636 [Report] >>519633847
>>519633273
>But does not God will that none should perish?
None of who? I think He means that He doesn't want any of the elect to perish, which is why He doesn't just bring about judgement right now...or 2000 years ago, and so on.
>Will not all of humanity have heard The Gospel before the end?
in some sense yes
>Is that not The Father drawing them?
no, otherwise everyone would have come to Christ. there is a chain of actions which follow the drawing, if you read through it in John 6
>the verses
are absolutely in line with what i believe. the one from Romans is particularly appropriate because its talking about vessels made for the explicit purpose of destruction and its very hard doctrine.
Anonymous (ID: QcLZVcU6) United States No.519633736 [Report]
a whole thread full of dumb jew worshippers
Anonymous (ID: o+PoQ/73) United States No.519633772 [Report]
>>519633026
kek that's funny
if you weren't lying then why did you shamelessly concede every argument made by me (>>519630048 >>519630423)
and this other anon (>>519632329)
because you have weak ideas that do not withstand scrutiny
you're a mental midget and I am of average mental height
it was over before it began
Anonymous (ID: U0RA442T) United States No.519633847 [Report] >>519634384 >>519634816
>>519633636
I guess our great folly is to attempt to judge God's morality.
We don't want to believe that God would create creatures specifically designed for destruction as we ourselves could be one, and that is painful to the ego.
Anonymous (ID: OHObNCPp) United States No.519633873 [Report] >>519634384
>>519633254
I'm not saying He doesn't know, but His knowledge of what path you will eventually choose to follow is not what made you choose to follow that path.
He created a universe where you have infinite possible paths, and He knows what would happen if you follow each of them. But you are the one who actually chooses which of those paths to follow. Even if He already knows which path you will eventually choose to follow, that doesn't mean His knowledge of which one you choose is what caused you to choose it.
Anonymous (ID: OHObNCPp) United States No.519633971 [Report]
>>519633085
>God isn’t God then.
God is all powerful and infinite, and He can be whatever He wants to be, even if your human brain is too dumb to comprehend it.
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519634114 [Report]
>>519633534
but do we necessarily have to assume that because God knows something that He caused it to happen? And honestly, if he did cause a thing to happen and i still feel free in the choosing of it because it was what i wanted and it suited my intentions, why does that mean i didn't choose it freely, if freely means 'within my possible choices'?
If we want to say that ANY outside effect means we dont have free will, then no free will is possible at all. is that what we mean?
Anonymous (ID: ebCPogFY) United States No.519634296 [Report]
>>519630938
Point was power does not need to be a factor in foreknowledge of other's actions. Such as I knew I the topic of predestination would be in this thread.


>>519631107
You're confusing foreknowledge with predestination.
I.E. God is a programmer of Robots vs. God knows what creatures that have free will will do.
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519634384 [Report]
>>519633847
i think so too. who are you oh man etc

>>519633873
>He created a universe where you have infinite possible paths
i dont think they are infinite. there are a definite number of branches that any one life could possibly take, at least i think so.
> But you
what would that even mean in such a multiverse style scenario? that there are 'infinite' me's? that makes no sense.
>that doesn't mean His knowledge of which one you choose is what caused you to choose it.
i agree that there is, in some concepts, no connection between foreknowledge and causation
Anonymous (ID: zjR9Exqx) United States No.519634409 [Report] >>519635183
>>519632500
I'm a universalist. Jesus either saved humanity or he didn't. He either defeated hell and death or he didn't. He saves us all, those who choose evil in this life reap evil, but even the best of us deserve hell right along with the worst of us and the Bible makes it clear that nothing you do here can get you there even believing. Belief is still an action and you cannot save yourself by performing an action. Jesus already did it, it is finished. The people who believe now and live a Christian life will ubdoubtably have a better life in general but that doesn't mean any of that matters to eternity or God.
Anonymous (ID: AJkHLG0o) United States No.519634422 [Report] >>519634780 >>519634923 >>519635183
>>519628860 (OP)
It turns out that both can exist at the same time. Admittedly, this is difficult to imagine for most people, but it gets easier to appreciate, the more you think about it. Having said all that, it should also be said that the Bible contains instances where Yahweh/God influences a human's free will, as in the case when God hardened Pharaoh's heart (several times), for example.
Anonymous (ID: zjR9Exqx) United States No.519634780 [Report] >>519635681
>>519634422
Ive heard a couple of good explanations of this just can't think of the explanation now. There is also a part in the Bible where God sends a lying spirit to give a false prophecy to some priests
Anonymous (ID: OHObNCPp) United States No.519634816 [Report]
>>519633847
>We don't want to believe that God would create creatures specifically designed for destruction
Well to be fair, He didn't originally create us that way. He explicitly forbid us from doing the one thing that gave us that capability, but we did it anyway.
The whole thing was kind of an obvious set up. I mean, the whole thing with the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil and a talking snake who just happened to be in the Garden for unexplained reasons. And God being like "definitely don't do that one thing while I'm not watching you!" and then leaving. It's like that psych experiment where they leave a kid unsupervised in a room with a cookie on the table, and tell them that if they don't eat the cookie they will get two cookies when the adult comes back, but then the kids always just eat the cookie when no one is watching.
But Adam and Eve had the choice. They could have followed God's command and we would still be sitting happy and peaceful and perfect in paradise right now, and just avoided this whole thing where humanity gets corrupted and evil and broken and has to learn to CHOOSE to do the right thing so that we can be one with God again.
Anonymous (ID: q7yHilIc) United States No.519634923 [Report] >>519636198
>>519634422
If we only have free will at the moment because God decides we do then we don't really have free will, he could just decide we don't anymore the instant we piss him off. Also the Old Testament God already knows everything that's going to happen and there's no way for us to change it. In other words, everything is predetermined.
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519635183 [Report] >>519636387
>>519634409
i just dont think the BIble says what you mean. i know where you're coming from but i cant deny what it says.

>>519634422
>It turns out that both can exist at the same time.
i think so. in the end He'll make it clear and then we'll all go 'oh yeah...riiight'
Anonymous (ID: n2lY9TXZ) No.519635340 [Report]
>>519628860 (OP)
It portrays people's free will and God's free will in attempting to lead people and mold leaders, societies, etc.
Anonymous (ID: AJkHLG0o) United States No.519635681 [Report] >>519636260
>>519634780
>There is also a part in the Bible where God sends a lying spirit

Oh yes, that's a good one! Very hard to understand, but I'm okay with that now.
Anonymous (ID: AJkHLG0o) United States No.519636198 [Report] >>519636358 >>519637028
>>519634923
>If we only have free will at the moment because God decides we do then we don't really have free will, he could just decide we don't anymore the instant we piss him off.

But, even in that, you in fact *do* have free will while you have it. (Also compare the angels who, while apparently having free will, must at all times express and work towards the Will of God, or else instantly lose their position as "angel" (which word means "messenger".))


>Also the Old Testament God already knows everything that's going to happen and there's no way for us to change it. In other words, everything is predetermined.

I tend to agree, *and yet*, it seems that it is *also* possible for free will to exist at the same time. It's just a bit had to understand how this is possible, but that does seem to be the case. Perhaps God just knows his creation so intimately. Also, in my opinion, it can't be the case that everything is progressing like a mechanical device, since what would be the point of it all.
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519636260 [Report] >>519636908
>>519635681
such events seem to be a judgement in and of themselves. As in, if God decides to do this to you, you're already judged and condemned and He's doing it as a lesson to other people, to be recorded in His book kind of thing
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519636358 [Report]
>>519636198
>I tend to agree, *and yet*, it seems that it is *also* possible for free will to exist at the same time. It's just a bit had to understand how this is possible, but that does seem to be the case.
agreed
Anonymous (ID: AJkHLG0o) United States No.519636387 [Report] >>519636735
>>519635183
>He'll make it clear and then we'll all go 'oh yeah...riiight'

That makes the most sense. I think most thoughtful people will admit that we are all currently in a state of sub-perfection, and cannot know or understand some things which are nevertheless true.
Anonymous (ID: +cjCGidA) No.519636443 [Report]
>>519629006
/thread
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519636735 [Report] >>519637362 >>519637560
>>519636387
absolutely the case. from what free will even means to how God exists to all manner of other things, the only solace i get is that in the hereafter these things will be made more clear as whatever time means passes lol. possibly a great deal of forever will be taken up with stuff like that.
Anonymous (ID: AJkHLG0o) United States No.519636908 [Report] >>519637218 >>519637641
>>519636260
That may be the case. The example with hardening Pharaoh's heart was to eventually bring about a scenario where the ONLY possible salvation of the Israelite people would be that God Himself would intervene and rescue them, and it would be known by all that that was what must have happened (since the apparent odds against them were stupidly high.)
Anonymous (ID: G3MagNHu) New Zealand No.519636997 [Report]
>>519628860 (OP)
Both
Anonymous (ID: q7yHilIc) United States No.519637028 [Report] >>519638225
>>519636198
>Also, in my opinion, it can't be the case that everything is progressing like a mechanical device, since what would be the point of it all.
I agree, but I also don't believe in the omnipotence of the Jewish god Yahweh
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519637218 [Report] >>519637799
>>519636908
exactly right. i can only see it as that Pharaoh was already judged because he wasn't given any more chances. The outcome of that is that there are a group of people who, to this day, remember and thank God for bringing them out of slavery, though sadly not all of them realize that Christ is what was meant.
Anonymous (ID: G3MagNHu) New Zealand No.519637321 [Report] >>519637366
>>519631081
>Does Jonah learn anything from it, was it right to force his hand? We don't really know
We do know it was good.
Anonymous (ID: AJkHLG0o) United States No.519637362 [Report] >>519637560 >>519637614 >>519637953
>>519636735
I hope we make it in bro. This part is clearly some sort of a test. Nice talking with you.
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519637366 [Report]
>>519637321
this is key
Anonymous (ID: xNL5PTRh) United States No.519637518 [Report]
>>519628860 (OP)
Free will is a myth. Choice is an illusion
Anonymous (ID: q7yHilIc) United States No.519637560 [Report] >>519637675 >>519638062
>>519636735
>>519637362
literal slave morality
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519637614 [Report] >>519637953
>>519637362
>I hope we make it in bro
the only hope to make it in Jesus. we can only look to His perfection. At least i know that if i look to what im suppose to do there is no hope!
> Nice talking with you.
likewise. Christ keep you
Anonymous (ID: G3MagNHu) New Zealand No.519637641 [Report] >>519638352
>>519636908
The “hardening” of Pharoah’s heart happened because it was already hard, too. Similar to Saul. The heart was already in a depraved condition. We can also question if Saul could have reversed the course of events and I believe even he or Pharoah could, but that would have to come from the will of their own hearts which was lacking. The warning is that the hardness they chose became permanent and God “gave them over” to their nature.
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519637675 [Report] >>519637957
>>519637560
literally just acknowledging that God is God.
Anonymous (ID: AhwVBSP4) United States No.519637784 [Report]
>>519628860 (OP)
>Does the Bible support free will or predestination?
Yes.
Welcome to one of the debates that splits in church doctrine
Anonymous (ID: AJkHLG0o) United States No.519637799 [Report] >>519638225 >>519640715
>>519637218
I myself suspect that the people who we today call "the Jews" are actually the impostors that Jesus spoke about in Revelation 2:9. I basically believe that the tribes of the ancient Israelites were pure white people (and not ethnic Jews, as we use that word today, as all of todays ethnic Jews are race-mixed, in my opinion.) It's also my understanding that all of that "Salvation is of/from the Jews" is basically a mistranslation (by today's meanings and understandings), and would now be better said as "Salvation comes from the tribe of Judah," which Jesus was. Later, Jesus had disciples to go to the "gentiles", which were/are actually just Israelites living outside of the land of Judea. ("Gentile" comes from the Latin "gentilis" and literally means "of the same race". The English word "genetics" has the same root. I also believe that most or all of the white race today are the pure descendants of the man named Jacob/Israel, and that no ethnic Jew today is, as they are all race-mixed. Once you understand these things, the scriptures start to make a lot more sense.)

btw These ideas are part of the "racist" religious and historical belief called "Christian Israel" (or Christian Identity, or the Israel Identity). I posted more info at the following link, including 2 nice videos:

https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/469862402/#469866727
Anonymous (ID: AJkHLG0o) United States No.519637953 [Report] >>519638032 >>519638092
>>519637362
>>519637614
>hope

I mean, I hope I'm up to the task of overcoming, and conforming to the image of Jesus Christ, as the chosen ones are predestined to do. God bless.
Anonymous (ID: q7yHilIc) United States No.519637957 [Report]
>>519637675
Yahweh isn't god
Anonymous (ID: hRSqv2I6) United States No.519638003 [Report]
>>519628860 (OP)
Yes.

You either choose or reject God.
God predestinates who will be His.
YOU AGREE WITH GOD EITHER WAY.
GOD AGREES WITH YOU EITHER WAY.

You cannot separate freewill and predestination.
They are two side of the same coin.
Anonymous (ID: U0RA442T) United States No.519638032 [Report] >>519638432 >>519638566
>>519637953
You believe, o man of God.

Trust that He who began a good work in you will finish it.
The very fact that you worry about your salvation is evidence of this working.
Anonymous (ID: AJkHLG0o) United States No.519638062 [Report] >>519638216
>>519637560
True liberty follows from having faith in, love for, and obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ.
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519638092 [Report] >>519638550
>>519637953
If He wants you, you'll do just fine. He is the good shepherd and He leads you and takes care of you. Even if you stray, He will leave the 99 and come to find the 1.
Anonymous (ID: q7yHilIc) United States No.519638216 [Report]
>>519638062
https://youtu.be/FhXz60f0HLU
Anonymous (ID: AJkHLG0o) United States No.519638225 [Report] >>519638533
>>519637028
See >>519637799

I suspect that the actual god of the Jewish people is the fallen angel called Satan in scripture.
Anonymous (ID: AJkHLG0o) United States No.519638352 [Report]
>>519637641
Sounds like a reasonable interpretation. Relatedly, there are also other parts of scripture were unforgiveness is portrayed as a terrible sin.
Anonymous (ID: AJkHLG0o) United States No.519638432 [Report]
>>519638032
My man. Good words; thank you and be blessed.
Anonymous (ID: q7yHilIc) United States No.519638533 [Report] >>519638762
>>519638225
Even ignoring the We Wuz Israelites cringe, none of what you said matters unless you dismiss the Old Testament. The Old Testament is ugly retarded desert bullshit and that wouldn't suddenly change if the people who wrote it were white.
Anonymous (ID: AJkHLG0o) United States No.519638550 [Report] >>519638630
>>519638092
Yes. Jesus is on record as having told his Father that he would not be losing a single one of those that his Father gave to him. Pretty amazing stuff really. later m8
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519638566 [Report]
>>519638032
>Trust that He who began a good work in you will finish it.
amen to that
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519638630 [Report]
>>519638550
And He will raise them up at the last day.

we can only rest in His promise. what else is there?
Anonymous (ID: AJkHLG0o) United States No.519638762 [Report] >>519638959
>>519638533
I don't dismiss the Old Testament, and I don't understand the point of your comment.
Anonymous (ID: hihyDURC) Portugal No.519638789 [Report]
>>519631971
Absolutely correct and based.
Retards itt cannot comprehend this, they can only think of reality and time like their marvel multiverse movies.
Anonymous (ID: tc6jGbM3) United States No.519638914 [Report]
>>519629147
I look forward to the day Ai can fill in the blanks and give NPCs real behaviors and make it pretty.
Anonymous (ID: q7yHilIc) United States No.519638959 [Report] >>519639332
>>519638762
>I don't dismiss the Old Testament
You literally think the God of the Universe came up with cutting baby dicks
You literally think that circumcision is an ancient Aryan tradition
Anonymous (ID: tc6jGbM3) United States No.519639055 [Report]
>>519630589
Pretty sure that’s talking about shrooms.
Anonymous (ID: oRnWitr0) United States No.519639159 [Report]
>>519628860 (OP)

Both. You make your choices and will live with them because humans can only live their lives in that frame. However God already knowns what you are going to choose because for him time is flat since he is outside of it (when hes not Jesus alive on the Earth).
Anonymous (ID: oRnWitr0) United States No.519639264 [Report] >>519644596
>>519628973

All those mods lost to time. I love this shit. There is a community open source remake at least two of them. I need to look into it. With AI I could make a ton of mods.
Anonymous (ID: AJkHLG0o) United States No.519639332 [Report] >>519639503 >>519639572 >>519639799
>>519638959
Yes. I think it was a way to enforce racial segregation, which is a practice that the white race has been engaged in everywhere that they built thriving civilizations.
Anonymous (ID: q7yHilIc) United States No.519639503 [Report] >>519639572
>>519639332
I implore you to legitimately reflect on how retarded this is
Anonymous (ID: AJkHLG0o) United States No.519639572 [Report] >>519639799 >>519639860
>>519639332
>>519639503
The point here being that non-Israelites would have to be *very* dedicated to infiltrating, to the point of cutting their privates. Outrageous, but perhaps effective.
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519639799 [Report] >>519639860 >>519640424
>>519639332
>>519639572
it was that, as were all the other laws that made them different to the surrounding peoples. they were always supposed to be separate from the idolatrous tribes around them and the punishments followed times when they forgot that.
Anonymous (ID: q7yHilIc) United States No.519639860 [Report] >>519639984 >>519640561
>>519639572
>>519639799
Why do you want to be Jews so fucking bad?
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519639984 [Report] >>519640168
>>519639860
thats not is at all anon. not even close. its not about jews at all.
Anonymous (ID: q7yHilIc) United States No.519640168 [Report] >>519640414 >>519640483
>>519639984
I don't know about you but the other guy is on some we wuz jews shit
Anonymous (ID: o+PoQ/73) United States No.519640414 [Report] >>519640520
>>519640168
>he doesn't know
Anonymous (ID: AJkHLG0o) United States No.519640424 [Report] >>519640578
>>519639799
>separate

That's what it's all about. It's actually a form of holiness, as "holy" in scripture literally means "set apart".
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519640483 [Report] >>519640715
>>519640168
didn't really see that. i saw it more as the guy saying that keeping groups distinct is not a bad thing, but is actually encouraged. try to keep in mind that the Bible uses the jews as an example of many thing...some good, but often times as a bad example, with the chastisements following. The NT teaches this.
Anonymous (ID: q7yHilIc) United States No.519640520 [Report] >>519641006
>>519640414
pure autism
Anonymous (ID: AJkHLG0o) United States No.519640561 [Report]
>>519639860
It turns out that it is the Jews who want to be us. But many will be fooled. btw the Jews are a matriarchal people, but every genealogy in the Bible is patrilinear. Interesting, that.
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519640578 [Report] >>519640947
>>519640424
>set apart
yep, thats what it means, though there are obviously degrees of set apartness.
Anonymous (ID: AJkHLG0o) United States No.519640715 [Report] >>519641513
>>519640483
>didn't really see that.

To be fair, he's basically referring to where I've posted here: >>519637799
Anonymous (ID: 6E3MjTz4) United States No.519640791 [Report]
>>519628935
Yes.
And also according to them yahweh can also mind control you to do the bad thing(s) so that he can kill you for a fun.
Anonymous (ID: AJkHLG0o) United States No.519640947 [Report] >>519641035 >>519641513
>>519640578
Yes. It's clear, for instance, that Jesus often taught to "the mixed multitude". And when the disciples asked him why he taught in parables, rather than being more plain-speaking, he said it was so that not everyone who heard would understand, for such things were given to some to understand, but not to others. You won't here *that* talked about in the Sunday pulpits.
Anonymous (ID: o+PoQ/73) United States No.519641006 [Report]
>>519640520
would an autist become a military professor, invent modern wargaming, and publish at least ten books on british israelism despite being an american? that's what I thought.
Anonymous (ID: AJkHLG0o) United States No.519641035 [Report]
>>519640947
*hear
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519641513 [Report] >>519642479
>>519640715
>To be fair, he's basically referring to where I've posted here
oh ok, gottcha. im not totally on board with that.

>>519640947
some dont avoid it but yeah, there is definitely a bunch that dont like stuff like that. it tends to be mixed up with the 'free will' and universalist teachings that dont like it.
Anonymous (ID: AJkHLG0o) United States No.519642479 [Report] >>519642764
>>519641513
>im not totally on board with that.

Few are, which is certainly understandable. Don't forget that, in the future, you can use the archive to find what we were talking about in this thread, :)

>im not totally on board with that.

Few are, which is certainly understandable. Don't forget that, in the future, you can use the archive to find what we were talking about in this thread, :)

https://4plebs.org/

And if you do ever get the interest, that second video I posted is fairly entertaining, and covers some basic intro stuff about C.I. It's fairly old, like maybe from the 1980's:

>White Boy! There is something you should know! (Pastor Peter J. Peters)
https://altcensored.com/watch?v=mKjEzIa0dQo
Anonymous (ID: mo+Um0zf) Slovakia No.519642547 [Report]
>>519629153
But you see uhhh he rewinded the tape forward and uhhh he exist at every Planck second simultaneously and uhhh yeah worship YHWH or burn in magic lava
Anonymous (ID: mo+Um0zf) Slovakia No.519642693 [Report]
>>519629157
>Post fall
Go back
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519642764 [Report] >>519643251
>>519642479
ive no objection to it really, in that i dont think it matter that much. i don think that i came to Christ because of my genetics; i came to Christ because He drew me to Himself. That is the only qualifying attribute, His call. As in, i did nothing prior to His call to earn or attract His call. Nobody knows why the elect at elected. So we preach to all men, tribes, tongues etc etc
Anonymous (ID: mo+Um0zf) Slovakia No.519642817 [Report] >>519642937
>>519630589
Ripped straight from plato
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519642937 [Report]
>>519642817
only the Bible was around way before him. maybe he ripped it from the Bible, just like all the other flood stories got it from the actual event. see?
Anonymous (ID: AJkHLG0o) United States No.519643251 [Report] >>519644468
>>519642764
I agree with some of what you've said here, and I will leave you with these 2 things to ponder:

1. It's important to God who the ancient Israelites were.

2. Question: For whom is the New Covenant? The answer may surprise you!; pic related.
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519644468 [Report] >>519644984
>>519643251
sure..but was it limited to them? there are many passages which say its with everyone - all tribes, people, tongues etc. if its gotten to that point then what does it matter? He clearly means all those that are the elect, which can be anyone
Anonymous (ID: cgXGMUSO) United Kingdom No.519644560 [Report]
>>519628973
I can smell this picture
Anonymous (ID: cgXGMUSO) United Kingdom No.519644596 [Report]
>>519639264
there's multiplayer nigger, its good
Anonymous (ID: AJkHLG0o) United States No.519644984 [Report] >>519645161
>>519644468
I'm not entirely sure about any of that. I do think it's interesting that the Bible says that only one people were under the Law, and scripture also defines "sin" as transgression of the Law. It's my understanding that only these people and their pure descendants need "redemption" (buying back), as it is only them who were ever lost. But God's Will be done! Whatever that entails.
Anonymous (ID: DxDuWKPc) United States No.519645136 [Report]
>>519628860 (OP)
There's not really free will.
There's obedience to God, and then rebellion against God we call sin.
The demons spread their rebellion to mankind.
The Church of Satan says " Do what thou wilt ". That is your " free will ".
Either obedience to God, or rebellion.
You don't really have free will, you have the ability to rebel against your Creator. Or obey Him.
Anonymous (ID: E2fZqboS) Canada No.519645161 [Report] >>519646354
>>519644984
we all need redemption, theres no doubt about that. the composition of that elect im really not sure. peace be with you fren, and may He bless you.
Anonymous (ID: AJkHLG0o) United States No.519646354 [Report]
>>519645161
And also you.
Anonymous (ID: z1blocTv) United States No.519647320 [Report] >>519647848
>>519628860 (OP)
Freewill and Predestination are not mutually exclusive.
I have little kids, they have free will, I have predestined them to take a bath at night, every night.
They might kick and scream the entire time, but they will get clean, sometimes they even like it.
I hate paying taxes every year and do it against my will, but I still pay it because the stronger will overrides what I want.
I still don't wanna pay it, and complain all year afterwards, but I pay it.
Anonymous (ID: AJkHLG0o) United States No.519647848 [Report]
>>519647320
>God just wants us to get clean

It checks out.