Thread 18542433

Who actually killed NJPW?
What do you think was the breaking point? A certain PPV or a booking decision?

>>18542433 (OP)
It was Covid. Lost the momentum, couldn’t get it back.

>>18542433 (OP)
70% Bushiroad and 30% AEW.

>>18542433 (OP)
you posted him. he started the downfall with his push. weebs need to see Tanahashi like they see Cena's prime push.

>>18542441
>Covid
No. Everything else recovered except NJPW.
>AEW completely shattered their expansion.
>AEW poaches their entire 2018-2023 main event scene.
>Bushiroad stops caring about the Japanese audience and caters exclusively to America.
>More foreigners signed than actual Japanese.

>>18542433 (OP)
They make most of their money from ticket sales, not television or advertising.
Coming out of 2019 they had high expenditures coupled with high income. When the pandemic hit, they suddenly had no revenue but still had the expenditures. This really fucked them financially.
Everything since those shutdown months before they could have even small crowds has been trying to catch up revenues to pay off the damage. Tony poached the top of their card, but it was in part necessary because New Japan really couldn't afford to pay them anymore. But they had no stars or future stars to pick up the lost slack, hurting them even further.
That's not to say no one was to blame. There were probably mistakes at all levels trying to deal with this emergency situation. But it was the pandemic that kicked it off.

>>18542455
No it’s none of that. They had a lot of momentum in 2020 especially if you look at new beginning with Naito v Kenta. Then shutting down for months killed that momentum and not having crowds made the matches way less exciting. They should have done what stardom and AEW did and have the wrestlers be the crowd/second all the wrestlers and make noise.
That’s the actual start of the decline which is the topic of the thread

>>18542474
How did literally everything else recover except them?
Pro-wrestling is niche in Japan, how could major mainstream sports recover? How could NOAH, AJPW, Stardom and so on deliver consistently good products? Why was it only NJPW that couldn't come back?

>>18542489
The thread is not why did it continue to decline. It’s what started the decline.

>>18542474
NTA (I'm this one - >>18542460), but they absolutely mismanaged the pandemic in a way others didn't. I don't know if they were expecting crowds to come back quickly or what but they weren't quick on their feet adapting like other companies were. It might have been due to being top heavy and having at least one of their top stars stuck in the US (Jay White) but it's like all their plans were stuck in 2019 and they just lacked the foresight to pivot with the times.

>>18542489
>AJPW
>deliver consistently good products

>>18542495
One and the same.

>>18542519
How are the words start and continue the same?

>>18542519
Not at all. OP here, I was asking about the "breaking point" where it all started going downhill, not why it continued to go into shit

>>18542433 (OP)
The hulkster did, brother. He went over there and shoot /HEEM/ed their ace and made him look like a pussy ass bitch in front of everyone. NJPW literally never recovered

>>18542519
OP is asking for a singular event.
There was no singular event. The closest thing that served as the catalyst was the pandemic.
The rest of the situation was the mishandled response to the pandemic. Which isn't really the singular event OP was asking for.

>>18542523
What caused them to decline is also what kept them declining. One and the same.

>>18542534
The Hulkster didn't do jack shit to destroy New Japan, he loved that company more than life itself and was sad he couldn't retire there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du6--Y3Y4p0

>>18542474
>kenta
>2020
>kenta
>KENTA
>2020
ATNEK<
0202<
>
<
>
Your out of your fucking mind mate trying to build a promotion around kenta in 2020 is like trying to build wwe around bob backlund in 2025. That motherfucker was WASHED, Dried, pressed, and starched by 2015

>>18542536
You're intentionally trolling and this really isn't the thread for that.

>>18542533
>>18542535
Covid's impact has been used for the past five years and it isn't true. NJPW still hasn't recovered the 2017 hype.
And it's because of Bushiroad and AEW.

>>18542534
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Qr4UFminCE

Even Hall went into business against himself for Tana's sake

>>18542554
>>18542564
You two read this post please
>>18542555

>>18542549
He made the entire Fed look like a bunch of pussies in mini skirts when he dog walked all of them

>>18542555
>Stating a literal fact is trolling.
Dude, as someone who loved NJPW and was there, it was Bushiroad's mismanagement that caused the decline.
It has been five years since Covid. Why haven't they recovered?

>>18542564
No one's arguing against any of that. Yes, New Japan was mismanaged to shit. Yes, AEW contributed.
The question was what started the downfall. It was the pandemic. 2019 New Japan was still great.

>>18542576
It's because you have multiple people explaining this to you, acknowledging your point of view and agreeing it's part of what happened, and you just keep "nuh-uhing" in response to get further reactions.
That's trolling.

>>18542579
So how the fuck did no other company suffer the same impact as NJPW if Covid was the starting point?
Why was NOAH, RIZIN and so on able to recover while NJPW couldn't?

>>18542575
Nice cope brother, are you calling the Hulkster a liar?

>>18542583
I'm not "nuh-uhing" at anything. I just don't believe that Covid played the part that you say it did.

>>18542586
Because its response was mismanaged, no one is disagreeing with that.
OP asked what started it all. Covid is what started it all. Those empty arenas did enormous damage and no one in the company was able to figure out how to save it.

>>18542586
>Why was *LITERALLY WHO PROMOTION ONLY 10 PEOPLE IN THE ENTIRE WOLD WATCH ON YOUTUBE* able to recover while NJPW couldn't?

>>18542598
Well it did. And that’s what started the decline.

>>18542598
Okay, you tell us then.
Spell out for us what you believe started it all, go into detail please.
We're ready to hear your theory.

>>18542606
>Okay, you tell us then.
So you don't know?

>>18542593
Consider the optics behind an absolute outsider showing up in your fed, winning the top belt and beating all your top guys, then just leaving because he’s bored. It makes your fed look bush league and like at anytime some random midcarder gaijin could just come to Japan and destroy your fed on a slow Tuesday.

>>18542612
Yeah, that's what I thought.

All their top guys got old and sawdusted

>>18542616
Hogan wasn't an outsider. He was one of the original champions of the company.
He learned to wrestle in Japan. His instructor was Hiro Matsuda, who intentionally broke his leg on the first day to test his will.
Guess you're not as big a Hogan fan as you thought given you don't know any of this. New Japan was a big part of his life.

>>18542433 (OP)
Gedo

>>18542616
>some random midcarder gaijin
Mox?

SARRRRR I BLODDY SAID THE WORD SINGULAR SARRRR MY DICTIONARY WORD OF THE SINGULARRRRR DAY SARRRRR SINGULARRRRR SARRRR

>>18542671
kek

>>18542646
*mistake - Matsuda had moved to Florida by the time Hogan learned from him and got his leg broken.
But the point remains Hogan was well-established in New Japan by the time of that interview. It was the return of a former champion who had history with the company and its founder, not an incursion by a random outsider.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9e36pe

>>18542646
That was in Florida, retard.

>>18542684
Yeah, and I corrected myself.
Doesn't change the fact that he had history in New Japan and was part of its legacy already.

>>18542603
Don't both promotions outdraw NJPW now?

>>18542616
Hogan won the 1983 equivalent of the G1 years before that interview, brother.
https://prowrestling.fandom.com/wiki/NJPW_IWGP_League_1983

>>18542713
True Ace of NJPW
GO HOGAN!
*air guitar riff*

>>18542433 (OP)
When NJPW became a farm system for Poop Dick Wrestling.

>>18542758
I dig it!

>>18542806
GO ACE!
GO ACE!
GO ACE!
GO ACE!

>>18542691
Your literally just reading Wikipedia lmao what a dumbass

>>18542819
Whatever you got to tell yourself.
Keep seething about how badly you got btfo'd for us tho.

>>18542819
>Your literally just reading
BTW, good evening saar!!!!

>>18542433 (OP)
>Make a dumb fuck partnership with AEW
>No new star to replace the boomer one
>Gedo still a booker for some reason
>House of Torture and EVIL still got mega push
>Tana is a shit leader
The list goes on but AEW partnership and lack of new star are the most lethal blow.

>>18542606
NJPW was trying to expand in the West. They were the true alternative to WWE. They lost a bunch of hype, attention, and support when AEW came on the scene and effectively replaced them. Killing their expansion.
NJPW altered their style to appeal more to Westerners.
There were already complaints about the booking and the direction that the product was heading in long before AEW even started.

Now, on to the main course. NJPW lost all of their main eventers. Guys who left without putting anyone over, passing the torch, or giving back. This caused NJPW to superpush guys like Shota who weren't ready for the spot. Names that needed the slow burn were catapulted into the upper midcard and main event.

AEW starts a "partnership," raids the main event scene, has a double agent like Rocky Romero working for both sides, and essentially turns the 53 year-old NJPW into developmental.

>>18543618
AEW is so bad for wrestling.

>>18543644
It is. Their fans are the absolute worst, most tribalistic, sweatlord retards I've ever seen. They make the Nintendo cult look normal.
They've invaded every fanbase online. You can't criticise their product without being blasted.

>>18542433 (OP)
tony taking but never giving

>>18543759
Remember when they harassed Kat Dennings into abandoning wrestling?

>>18543618
I largely agree with much of this, but my question has to do with this:
>Now, on to the main course. NJPW lost all of their main eventers.
What events specifically led to this happening, where New Japan financially wasn't in a place where it could make solid counteroffers to retain some of that talent it lost?

>>18543778
I'll never forget

>>18542433 (OP)
>Who actually killed NJPW?
evil, because he is dimeless and the booker for pushing evil in exchange for sexual favors form evil

>>18542433 (OP)
Covid, and AEW non ironically.

>>18543799
Khan is a billionaire who can afford to be stupid with his money. He bids in millions while everyone else bids in pennies. Offering a TV spot, limited dates, absurd money, and in some cases, creative control... Smaller promotions can't match that. Not even WWE does that.
The names he took haven't been back to Japan either. They haven't even tried to help NJPW knowing the state they're in.

>>18543820
Lol. What a fucking insufferable bunch of cunts.
A lot of stock photo avatars there.

>boring fuck evil and his house of dogshit
>ICECOLD sanada
>the new three failed faggots
nobody left to draw dimes

>>18543618
>double agent like Rocky Romero working for both sides

>>18542433 (OP)
When they fired Harold and they allowed themselves to partner up with aew instead of constantly doing no business with aew

>>18542554
Lil Ks NJPW run was for the most part based

Gedo's booking has been genuinely terrible for at least 5 years. That is the number 1 problem New Japan has had.

>>18543835
So, you argue that the covid shutdowns had no effect on New Japan whatsoever.
None. Zero.
Just because other companies, many of which had far lower expenses, scraped through by the skin of their teeth.

I like NJPW but I'm going to give an unpleasant answe here. Gedo is a shit booker. Too many dimeless, meaningless tag matches with no story and no point. Also, their show format is just match after match after match after match with nothing in between. The matches are generally very good but the format is repetitive and boring. Further, there is literally almost zero storytelling outside the ring. NJPW does great at putting on fine matches, but they are missing everything else.

>>18544714
Most of your complaint there is with the format of Japanese pro-wrestling in general.
It's not that they're leaving anything out, it's just that they embrace the more traditional sports-type presentation given that it's primarily an event people pay to go to and not really a TV show.
All wrestling was like that at one point. They can't afford to have the staff of writers on hand to write skits and promos and whatnot that WWE and even AEW do.

>>18544739
I know that Japanese wrestling is different, I'm not expecting NJPW to go full sports-entertainment. However, if they don't start making things interesting somehow then they are going to lose it all. I am genuinely getting worried about them. Also when I watch NJPW shows lately, there are so many pointless six man matches that it makes me mad and I end up doing something else. This whole G1, I've been just watching the tournament matches on replay and skipping everything else. They need another fucking booker and quickly.

>>18544801
Even the two night Wrestling Dontaku show was almost all filler. Two great main events, but it was mostly not worth watching.

>>18544801
gedo sucks, he turned shingo into a jobber.

Gedo and Rocky Romero
I can't really blame Tanahashi for letting Tony dick the promotion down, because it got a lot of the guys huge pay days.

Tony pays better.
All NJPW talent would rather work for AEW.
Seethe Jamals.

japanese promotions always have trouble with guard change, all because both workers and promotions have this loyalty mentality, its gonna stabilize eventually
but they're gonna be in rough shape for a while, they've done it before and they'll do it again

They lost Okada, Jay White, Ibushi, Ospreay and Naito within a few years and never had any back-up plan for what to do when those guys weren't there anymore

>>18544891
exactly, NJPW has the potential for all kinds of dimes but the dogshit booking is driving people away imo.

>>18545009
>Lazy
>Gaijin
>Retarded
>Retarded Gaijin
>40 year old man in a 90 year old's body
Maybe this eventuality could have been foreseen.

>>18542433 (OP)
Tony Khan

>>18544710
Explain major sports in Japan. Explain RIZIN, the country's biggest MMA promotion, and top three worldwide.
Why did no other brand or business suffer as much as the niche NJPW?

>>18542489
I wouldn't call NOAH or AJPW consistent. They occasionally have really good matches that blow NJPW out of the water but they're not consistent and both end up going through slumps. Plus both can be rough to watch if you're watching the whole card and not just the main event scene.

>>18545032
>its okay that Tony took everyone at the top of NJPW’s card actually

>>18545009
NJPW is used to losing gaijin so I'm sure they were aware Jay and Ospreay would go. Ibushi they expected to join AEW day one and were shocked he actually stayed. Okada I think shocked them a bit but it's clear Okada wasn't wanting to start putting over the young guys. Naito I think is just aware he's broken down and wants quick Tony Khan checks before his body completely gives out. NJPW is used to losing people, just not used to losing people that quickly. That said you can't completely blame Tony for this. Aussie Open wanted to stay in NJPW and said they would if NJPW would give them even a shitty contract and NJPW wouldn't.

>>18542433 (OP)
Anons have articulated good answers so I'll answer another important question: how do you fix it?

Answer:

1. you further lower costs by removing all names which don't draw.
2. You scale the company down instead of doing more shows hoping to get more ticket sales.
3. You throw every dojo motherfucker you have, cycle 3-4 of them out every few months to see who's actually entertaining and can put on a match.
4. Introduce promos and skits. No need for writers, just the booker and people involved coming up with ideas inspired by WWE and TNA at their peak.
5. Make the entire card meaningful like WWE PPVs
6. Give each wrestler a gimmick and story, no matter what.
7. Worry about match quality and entertainment equally without tilting too far in either direction.
8. Use Japanese talent only, expect maybe a few cheap gaijins.

>>18545187
Maybe they shouldn't have booked their shows exclusively around wrestlers who would leave for a $0.50 raise. Ibushi was the only one they had any right to be surprised about, but everyone knows him and Kenny are as close as Shawn and Haitch.

>>18545210
I think all of these are good ideas, especially number 6. EVERY wrestler needs some kind of personality, otherwise they end up as a generic guy in tights like ren narita. Of course, narita could maybe have some potential if they actually give him an interesting character arc or something.

>>18542433 (OP)
>Who actually killed NJPW?

>>18545139
NJPW was obviously mismanaged.
But let's not pretend the pandemic wasn't the catalyst or had zero effect.
Decent captains can guide a ship through rocky waters. Shit captains wind up sinking the ship. But it's kinda silly to say that just because decent captains were able to handle the waters in question that the rocks played no role in the poor captain's ship sinking.

>>18546056
covid absolutely was part of the problem but that was years ago. they should have been able to bounce back by now. the fact that the G1 is flopping in terms of attendance is a serious red alert, something is very wrong here and the people at bushiroad need to wake the fuck up and do something about it.

>>18546266
I'm not disagreeing with any of that, the management sucks and the booking hasn't been much better. People forget that Kidani is a fucking money mark just like Tony.
But it's like they had a long term plan, the Elite left, covid hit, and there wasn't anyone competent enough to change up the plan to save the ship.
I've been impressed with Taro Okada though. He's the reason Marigold isn't a bigger deal, because he managed to effectively quell worker dissent in Stardom.
A lot more would have jumped ship if not for him.

>>18542433 (OP)
Gedo and his pals in the office.

>>18546355
yeah i agree, kidani is an anime nerd. what they need is a wrestling nerd like one of us lol.

>>18546409
Kek, I can't say I'd do a better job.

>>18546433
I don't know if I would do a better job or not, but I would have Tsuji wearing the belt and doing worked fights with trained bears at the top of mount Fuji to establish his credibility and make him famous.

You can blame
TK
Rocky Romero
Gedo
kidani

Might as well add the guy who hated ibushi

>>18546464
Both AJPW and NOAH pulled the trigger on first year Heavyweight champs the past couple of years. Although I didn't watch, I'm under the impression both did rather well.
A puroresu company needs at least one Ace. Who the fuck am I supposed to be rooting for in NJPW? That's one of its biggest problems right there - it just books like it's a company of guys and doesn't actually get behind anyone they're willing to put their faith in and say, "Here. This is the guy we trust."
If they don't trust their talent why should we.

>>18546503
exactly, they have guys in there right now who are capable of being the top guy, but they keep expecting these guys to get over on their own with no help from booking and no story to help them connect with the audience.

>>18546056
It must've had an effect, just not to the level that some fans think.
>>18546355
>Taro
I like him a lot more than I like Rossy, but lets be honest, they're not staying because of loyalty, Stardom is money.

>>18546503
The fans always have to choose the Ace. The company and man backstage can't decide who has "it."
The fans chose Tanahashi. They eventually chose Naito.
They don't like Shota.
Tsuji and Uemura have that potential, but the company won't ever give them the right platform.

>>18542534
This. Not the hulk himself per se, but the whole promotion looks like a joke when any random outsider comes in mops the floor with your top guys every 6 months. Hogan squashed fucking Inoki that’s like joe hendry coming to WWE in 2006 and squashing cena