Thread 19012064

when's it's is all said and done where will he stand in the anals of pro wrestling history? the true greatest GOAT of all time like WWE is saying his is?

>>19012064 (OP)
Number 7-10

Why did he wear a John Deere inspired outfit

>>19012064 (OP)
>Below guys like Hogan, Rock
>Above guys like austin, gaytch, HBGay

>>19012064 (OP)
I don't think people who weren't children during his main event run will rate him very high and people who weren't alive when he was active won't look back on him very well because I don't think the "substance" is really there if you look at it without cultural context. Like there's no way to explain to a zoomer what it was like to watch Hulk Hogan at the time but there are guys like Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Macho Man etc. where even if you didn't know anything about the times you can see why they're rated so high.

All time goat, unlike all that boomer shit you can actually rewatch his work.

>>19012426
they were doing weekly shows and house shows around the bible belt during these colors iirc

>>19012064 (OP)
He represented the decline of wrestling, so I’ll never like him.

>>19012064 (OP)
WWE is going to push him as their new hogan. this untouchable, godlike figure that represents all things good in wrestling.
his actual wrestling career should be viewed as mixed. he was the figurehead of the PG era that drove away so much of the audience of wrestling. he came into his own more as he stepped away from the spotlight, but by then the damage was done.

>>19012064 (OP)
Somewhere above Bret but below Austin, Rock, and Hogan, even Flair.

>>19013370
>the PG era that drove away so much of the audience of wrestling
False. The attitude era drove away fans. They grew up and decided to not watch the choppy choppy your peepee show. Most ex fans have no idea that it went PG. They're just ashamed they ever watched it in the first place.

>>19013381
>above bret
lmao
lol even

>>19013388
Bret had a similar run in a shorter amount of time and tanked business.

how will he stack up to cena in terms of post-career reception as the top guy?

Better or worse. Cena was the face of the company when business was starting to go down, yet he was still one of their biggest draws. Issue is Cena would more often remind you that "Oh yeah this shit is made for 12 year olds"

>>19013394
He's below Cena.

>>19013391
Business was tanking everywhere, 1992-1995 was a massive down cycle in US wrestling.

>>19013394
People will remember "the run" and nothing else.

>>19013398
And Bret Hart was their top star. Your point?

>>19013396
>yet he was still one of their biggest draws
the WWE makes whoever it wants into draws and prevents others from becoming draws that they don't want to be draws, i don't think this is as notable as people believe
if drawing matters to you then it should be "is the company drawing" and nothing else
the wrestlers only make as much money for the company as the company lets them make, it's no different than kayfabe win record

>>19013405
You can't just make someone into a star, look at Lex Luger.

>>19013394
Nowhere near, the most overrated faggot of all time
Forced down the fans’ throats until they managed to hit upon a storyline that worked, and then become part time.
If you aren’t out there carrying the company on your back, you don’t really matter.

>>19013391
>me when I'm a retarded faggot who has no idea how business works and a cena timmy
>>19013394
No one will give a shit except Pajeets and Mexicans who weirdly self insert as him or whatever. Dogshit career that took over a decade and literal reality check fron cancer to get good, and he was still carried by his stable.
Note how now that he's on his own, he flounders and gets jackshit done. He's cut no meaningful or memorable promos or had any good or memorable matches past Mania 40 and is now stuck in member-berry baiting for a group that only broke up LAST YEAR.

>>19013409
>If you aren’t out there carrying the company on your back, you don’t really matter.
joe aona'i would look you right in the eyes and tell you that he still does this

>>19013410
I think Bret would even admit Cena was a bigger draw and he hates everyone. He's the one guy besides Punk whom he consistently references as someone he would have liked to have work with, meaning he thinks he could have made money with him.

>>19013403
He was never positioned as the top star in the entirety of that period, for instance he spent a decent amount in the mid card for 95.
Also was he the cause of WCW drawing 100 people in Virginia? Or cancelling a show in Tampa because nobody came? Seems to me like you don’t know anything about wrestling and skim read Wikipedia.

>>19012064 (OP)
Fuck Cena. He was literally lobotomized in the mid zeros. Any Cena fan here are simply the brain rotted children who grew up on him that are now old enough to post here. They desperately want people to think their autistic neon colored Man Child was actually good. Now even he himself admits that he doesn’t even know how to play the role that got him popular in the first place and basically just does a best of himself. The result today is the worst heel run, most unnecessary nonsensical title run, and shittiest retirement run ever seen in wrestling history.

That said, it’s not the fault of post-Marine Cena fantoddlers. I don’t blame their generation for falling for Cena. They were raised by algorithms, cheated out of actual parents in this present era and fell in love with a Peter Pan

>>19013423
So you're saying Bret was such a draw that they took him out of the main event? Wow, you're like a wrestling encyclopedia!
>Source: I was actually alive when Bret Hart wrestled

>>19013405
WWE wishes they can just manufactor people into stars. Did you see Roman Reigns run from 2015-2019? THA BIG DAWG was gonna beat Goldberg until COVID happened. Then he got fake teeth and finally lifted some weights.

Roman Reigns would be a permanent tag team guy in the Attitude Era or the 80s, not enough charisma to compete with the top guys.


Austin/Hogan would not let Cena be past miscard status as they would've seen him as an uncoordinated goof when he was younger.

>>19013415
We can talk numbers all day until we're blue in the face. I will agree that Cena, from a numbers standpoint, drew more money than Bret because they tapped into the kiddy market by making him a literal goody two shoes Superman character. But you are fucking insane, a contrarian, or a timmy if you think he's above Bret careerwise. Bret's career ended with a kick.
Cena's career is ending with a wet fart everyone is saying smells like shit.

>>19013428
I never said Bret was a draw did I? I countered your incorrect claims that he was solely responsible for tanking business.
And just because a promoter does something doesn’t mean it’s correct, Vince replaced him with Diesel and Shawn, who drew worse.
>Source: I was actually alive when Bret Hart wrestled
Maybe you should have watched the tv at the time then, instead of being a retarded faggot.

>>19013441
Do you understand John Cena doesn't need wrestling? How many people went to see Bret Hart as Aladdin? Stop being a fucking mark.

Looking back, there’s no one else who could have done what Cena did. Sure you had guys who got over and fed to Cena, but time has forgotten them.
>Christian
Was never going to be the guy, is still Edge’s Jannetty in a different company 20 years later. His prime was being TNA’s champ in their infancy
>Batista
Had a great run with popularity that rivaled Cena, but was older and constantly injured
>RVD
Drugged himself out of his golden moment
>Edge/Orton
Worked better as a heel
>Punk
Might have been the one guy who could have been the Austin to Cena’s Rock, but could never be the pure babyface that Cena is
>Bryan
Came in 10 years into Cena’s run, got over but got injured and retired
>Ryder
Lmao
>The Ryback
Too stupid
>Rey
Too small to have long title reigns especially when you exist alongside Undertaker
>Dean
Too stupid
>Seffetty
Too much of a whiny bitch to ever be the face of the company
>Roman
Unironically held back by Vince’s hubris
>Cody
Wants to be Cena, but is too much of a politician

>>19013415
No doubt Cena was a bigger draw, but he also had far more advantages
>came off the biggest ratings era in U.S. history
>WWE had complete monopoly over U.S Wrestling
>Changes in technology
Really, only absolute GOAT draws like Londos can draw no matter the circumstances.

>>19013434
>Hogan seeing anyone as uncoordinated
Cena would have thrived in Hogan’s era, Hogan would flounder in Cena’s

>>19013445
>Do you understand John Cena doesn't need wrestling?
Nice goalpost moving. I'll take this as a concession because you have no argument. Thanks for playing, Timmy.

>>19013455
Everyone floundered in Cena’s era, even Cena, just look at the ratings.

>>19013444
Plenty of people were going to wrestling shows in the early '90s, just not ones headlined by Bret Hart or under the WCW banner. Your assumption is that wrestling simply wasn't popular at this time, but you don't have any data on people attending independent wrestling shows which existed all over the world at this time. People never stopped liking wrestling, they just weren't interested in those two promotions.

>>19012064 (OP)
He's the greatest PR guy they've ever had and it's not close. And he was extremely devoted to the company (or at least Vince) as well. It's very understandable why corporate would want to associate the brand with him.
As a draw I think people would struggle to place him in the top ten. Business fell while he was on top and they only started to get the giant deals after he went part time.
In ring he's clearly not in the top 30.
His character was never particularly interesting.
He's legitimately a very solid promo but only rarely amazing.

>>19013456
So Bret Hart went from getting kicked in the head to doing what exactly? He was such a draw after all, bigger than Cena

>>19013459
>Plenty of people were going to wrestling shows in the early '90s
Source? Because there’s event lists from SMW, USWA, ECW etc which show that on a good day they would get 1000, but mostly got 250-500 on average
>all over the world at this time
Hence why I said US, learn to read.

>>19012064 (OP)
He's in the same tier of B+ guys like Orton, HHH, Bret, Jericho, or Angle. Only zoomer retards who grew up with him, or nu-fans who chug the propaganda think he's anywhere near the level of guys like Hogan, Austin, Rock, or Goldberg

>>19013450
>Christian
Factually cucked by Vince.
>Bat
Got sick of the PG shit and left. He didn't want to be a bootlicker like Cena and be all kid friendly and not authentic.
>RVD
This is the only part you're right on.
>Edge
Too pussy to bet on a heel.
>Orton
Still had attitude problems that didn't get fixed until 20 years later.
>Punk
Cucked by Vince AND H.
>Bryan
Cucked by Vince, fans got so loud he couldn't ignore the money, then got cucked afterwards
>Ryder
Literally got the "ERMMMMM YEAH YOU CAN'T SELL THAT MUCH SINCE YOU'RE NOT THE TOP GUY SO WE'LL PUT A STOP TO THAT OKAY BUDDY" treatment because Vince had a faggoty propaganda to keep up with Cena
>Ryback
Let down by Vince and only supported because of his gay muscle fetish. If a retard like Goldberg can be a top guy, then so can anyone. Deliberately not taught how to wrestle or work a mic for some fucking reason.
>Rey
Cucked by Vince. Also cucked by his own mic work.
>Dean
Literally cucked by Vince and refused to be talked out of braining himself every match for some reason
>Seth
Cucked by Vince for Roman.
>Roman
Fetishized by Vince because he was a faggot and only relented because he had cancer. Still shit in the grand scheme.
>Cody
Cucked by Vince so bad he went and started an enemy fed. Now he's just a guy who wears his emotions on his sleeve too much about wanting to stay face and is led by a group of idiots in creative.

>>19013455
>Cena would have thrived in Hogan's era
LMAO, this is exactly how it would've gone
>Hey new guy. Uh, John right? Thanks for coming in last second brother, we needed a spot for tonight. Hot crowd, packed to the top. Should be good. Finish is gonna be me going over, probably 5, 6 minutes max. I'll do my pump up, you fight back, drop the leg, we go home. Let's get them excited out there, I'll see you later in the ring.
And then he would be completely forgotten about because nothing about him would be unique. There were guys back then who had much more impressive physiques than Cena, including Hogan. Cena would've been dropped in like a month.

>>19013450
You're too focused on drawing like that matters after a decade or two. U2 is the 3rd biggest draw in music history and guess what? It would be an extreme minority opinion for someone to say they were even the best band in their genre of music let alone across all of post-1950s music.

>>19013478
WWF was broadcast all over the world in the '90s, they would reference this all the time in their intro signature, you would know that if you actually watched the product, kid.

>>19013453
>Ignores Hulkamania

>>19012064 (OP)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8T3BexspUk

>>19013511
And? Tv money was nothing until 98 for WWF, so any money made on international deals or the odd tour of the UK/Germany/Middle East meant nothing - 95% of WWF’s revenue came from ticket sales, PPV buys and merchandise sold to US customers.
It’s hilarious how little you actually know about 90s wrestling despite your little ‘um I was alive then’.

>>19013549
Guess where Bret Hart was the most over at this time? Germany. Thanks for playing.

>>19013562
Yeah I’m sure the few dozen or so events they ran in Germany really filled up the WWF coffers.

>>19012064 (OP)
>... in the anals of pro wrestling
7 inches deep I hear.

>>19013570
>Bret Fart > John Cena
>Business was down for Bret Fart, but it wasn't his fault
>It doesn't matter if Cena was more over, Bret Fart still had le better career somehow
>Even if business was also down for Cena he was popular in the aftermath of a boom period
>Hulkamania never happened, all of wrestling started with Bret Fart
>International audiences are irrelevant
>Bret Fart was most popular with international audiences
You are here.

>>19013601
>Bret Fart > John Cena
Now retard, show me where I typed that.

>>19013617
>>19013388

>>19013625
Not sure if your mind can comprehend this, but there can be more than 2 people in a thread?
If you had the mental capacity, you would have read this >>19013444

Look - 6/10
Wrestling ability - 5/10
Mic skills - 8/10

Overall a 19, maybe 20. Not even close to the top tier. Somewhere at the bottom of Bret tier (23-24~)

>>19013628
>he was soley responsible for tanking business
He was the guy at the time, simple as. Now stop being a samefagging little bitch.

>>19013528
Hulkamania was dwindling by 90 and dead by 91, not to mention other things like the steroid trial and such that completely killed the reputation of the WWF and left the wrestling business in a real bad way

>>19013638
>Hulkamania was dwindling
Let me stop you right there, brother.

>>19013644
Cuck Hogan is dead and burning in hell, now quit worshipping a roided up homo because he made money for a BBC loving rapist 40 years ago

>>19013648
Wow, when you put it that way, I think you're right!

>>19013637
You know nothing about wrestling, other than what little you’ve seen in documentaries and Wikipedia articles, you’re a dumb faggot that has been proven wrong time and time again (all those millions watching independent wrestling kek what a retard).
You’re also a schizo faggot, and an illiterate one at that, because the guy who made the initial post actually responded to you.
I would ask you to stop being a retarded schizo faggot, but that would be impossible on your part.

>>19013650
>Millions watching wrestling
You said people suddenly stopped liking wrestling because they weren't watching WWF and WCW at the time and my implication was that people never stopped like wrestling, they stopped liking the products that were popular. That's like saying people don't like movies because Hollywood keeps putting out bombs. I never said millions of people were going to independent wrestling. You seem to think interest in something is entirely dependent on short periods of time in history, but wrestling has always been popular in one way or another. You're just gay.

>>19012064 (OP)
He will be remembered as the man that killed professional wrestling, an "honor" he shares with Triple H.

>>19013656
Jesus, you become more and more retarded with each post
So you’re saying that the 1992-1995 weak period of wrestling didn’t exist because people still potentially liked wrestling? How does that help with tickets and such you retard? And no, what happens is that people can grow out of a hobby like today, the 8 million people that the AE drew in at its highest rating are all still not holding a flame or marginally interested, many of them have have moved on, hence why Smackdown does a million now.
And we know that the viewers during the Hulkamania period and AE were demographically different - the former being families and the latter being teenage to early adult males.

>>19013669
Wrestling wasn't as much of a joke before the Attitude era and TNA, now any normal person looks at it and thinks of it as a melodramatic soap opera with sleazy depictions of women and stories about wrestlers cheating with each other's girlfriends, accusing each other of fucking corpses, midget slapstick, racism, before 1998 we could all at least pretend the in ring action was real.

>>19013669
WWF's precious success was unprecedented, pro wrestling itself still existed and was still an interest to people, just not at that scale. You're just deflecting from the fact that people didn't want to see Bret Fart and using WCW to help your argument, but that was a brand new product.

>>19013689
*previous

>>19012064 (OP)
wrestling historian here
He'll probably be one of the greatest humanitarian wrestlers of all time. His booking is a whole other issue that isn't worth expounding on here, because everyone knows already.
But yeah, did great charity work.

>>19013394
Reigns is even worse than Cena.

>>19012064 (OP)
wrestling historian here
he will always be a jobber compared to austin, rock and hogan

>>19013729
>guy who started shit but had a gimmick that made him shoot popular but still couldn't wrestle, until switching to an objectively dogshit gimmick that heralded one of the worst eras in wrestling
>guy who couldn't wrestled for shit carried by his stable until he was forced into a solo career and became the most hated man in wrestling, heralding one of the worst periods in wrestling, then came back with a strong gimmick until he became overpushed, then had a stable that took a syrian to get dimes, built up to one of the biggest and most satisfying angles in wrestling at 40
Hard to say which one is worse.

>>19012064 (OP)
Yes he is

>>19013661
That honor belongs to Vince actually

>>19012064 (OP)
>the anals of pro wrestling history
Total assholes

>Pro Wrestling History
A tier 2 or 3 guy. A very good worker/promo and a strong drawing card that steadied the ship in uncertain waters, but wasn't a boom-level draw or a revolutionary worker.

>>19012064 (OP)
>pro wrestling history.
His relevance is from a single promotion.
In WWE history, that is significant but now you are pretty much hoping WWE is the single top promotion forever for all of mankind which historically is never the case for any promotion.

You have to work other places to be called a GOAT. You need to prove that you are more than the machine behind you.

>>19012590
based correct anon. his work with murs was pretty cool though, regardless of context

Good person
Shit wrestler

>>19013410
>weirdly self insert
But enough about Dom and Rhea fans.

>>19012064 (OP)
I like Cena, but he isn't the biggest draw (period, regionally or worldwide.) He isn't the best in-ring worker. He isn't the best promo. He isn't the biggest star, out of wrestling. He isn't the best jack of all trades. He doesn't rank, nobody currently active does desu.

top 10 for sure

not top 10 for sure

>>19013394
His push will forever be tainted because it will be perceived as nothing more than Vince McMahon raping the WWE Universe