Thread 19124964

How many of the greatest matches of all time have you seen?

>>19124964 (OP)
Anything after 2015 doesn't count because fuck activist fans

>>19124964 (OP)
Cagematch isn't a reflection of what's best. Its averages are unscientific and don't reflect overall quality.
But it's great for recommendations. I bet every one of those matches is pretty entertaining on its own merits (not relying on understanding the surrounding storyline context, I mean).

>Johnny Gargano has one of the “best matches of all time”

This should really tell you everything there is to know about smarkbait wrestling

How are people able to stomach watching all that Chinese stuff?

>>19125000
it's unironically his only good singles match

>>19125005
Jap wrestling is good but not *that* Jap wrestling, anything from the 80s and 90s is better than anything on that list not from those eras.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdAVWuR7x5w

even the women's shit was good

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzD_QyYB45s

>>19124964 (OP)
Huh, the only matches I didn’t see on this entire list are the Draugunov/WALTER matches.

Are they that good?

Did you filter women’s matches? I feel like most lists on there are littered with modern joshi trash.
Regardless the rating system there is trash. The user base has no interest in wrestling older than this week and the moderation are so worried about tribalism that you have to jump through hoops to have your own opinion that doesn’t line up within 2 points of the current score.
And it’s an easy fix too. Don’t let people vote on anything until it’s a year end, if people actually have a strong opinion on it they’ll go back and rate some random dynamite or smackdown. Also require comments and actually moderate them, don’t make a big fuss out of it just silently remove the point total. If someone give Brock a 0 cause he rapes, just remove their score. If someone gives flair a six and their comment is about how they only saw his retirement match and didn’t like it but they heard he might be good, just remove the score.

>>19125098
>calls matches he hasn't even watched trash

>>19125060
Just give yourself the grace to stop watching. They’re all very similar matches so you might like them only up to a point.

>>19125010
And it's better than Hogan vs Rock? Come on, now

>>19125122
Cause they are. Joshi was trash 10 years ago you expect me to think it’s gotten better when every other type of wrestling has gotten worse.
Also keep in mind I’ve watched peaked joshi in the 80s and the 90s so I actually have standards.
I wish you would try to defend modern joshi to my face so I could get you arrested.

>>19125145
Hogan/Rock was a midcard match, so it can't be "great".

>>19125134
You’re describing literally every Will Ospreay match

>>19124964 (OP)
The only good matches on there are AJ vs Daniels vs Joe, HBK vs Undertaker, and Bret vs Austin. And somehow the best AEW match, Cody vs Dustin, isn't on the list. Smarks are so clueless it's unreal. These are the complete retards Tony books for. No wonder AEW's in the shitter.

>>19125000
Using Cagematch has nothing to do with being a smark.
Being a smark is about caring about behind the scenes shit. Literally trying to be a "smart mark."
Enjoying matches doesn't make you a smark. If anything, it's mark behavior. No one sat down and decided this was the list of best matches ever. It's just an aggregate of averages on a poorly-constructed site that can't be bothered to weigh them seriously.
It's not a bad list of recommendation but I don't think anyone would argue it's a definitive list because it's not meant to be.
Some of you see this shit and get triggered by it and just assume it's asserting things it's not so you go on the attack without even thinking. You just think people you disagree with on things are the caricatures and strawmen you assume they are without considering if there might be more to how they think than you're seeing on the surface.

>>19125149
Holy triggered dude, calm the fuck down.
Begging the question is a logical fallacy and not a rational argument, by the way.

>>19125149
90s ajw was peak

>>19124964 (OP)
There needs to be a way to filter out Japanese matches, NXT and AEW matches and any match where the competitors are under 200 pounds.

>>19125149
It's gotten a lot better, by the way. Most joshis are in their 20s and 30s and I can think of maybe one worker on the Stardom roster who's under 18, the focus is on match quality not the pedo crap it used to be (which I never watched so fuck you) .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CvvdjXWPvY

>>19125005
Why do you come to 4chan if you hate Japanese content

What an embarrassing list, it's like 80% Melmeltzer smark bullshit.

>>19125046
Based wrestling historian anon

>>19125202
90s AJW, hell even 90s JPW clears modern Stardom

>>19125259
I don't disagree at all (shit, I posted the Hokuto vs Yotota match), but modern Stardom isn't bad at all given the current state of wrestling.
It's more watchable than most of the crap out there these days, not perfect but decent.

>>19125272
>Yotota
*Toyota

>>19124964 (OP)
Decent list. Remove all the WWE trash for casual marks like Bret vs Austin and Shawn vs Taker and add more AJW matches to make it better.

Genuinely no WWE match should be in any top 100 WRESTLING matches because it's not a wrestling company. Bret and Austin weren't even top 20 wrestlers from the 90s alone.

>>19125322
Bullshit, I enjoy matches as much as the next guy and prefer Japanese wrestling but what's important is whether a story is told and whether that story engrosses the audience.
Bret and Austin definitely fits that bill.

>>19125202
I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Give me a top 5 post pandemic joshi shows. They don’t have to be on YouTube or whatever, I am an experienced bootlegger. I will find them.
No later than March of next year I will make a thread on here with my findings. If I am wrong I will admit. If it is just more low standards modern trash I will expose it. If it ends up being pedoshit you are now honor bound to turn yourself and any modern joshi related associates into the fbi or local authorities.
I want full shows, they don’t have to be full of bangers but the undercard should be inoffensive. I am also not swayed by attendance, if there’s a really good show that only 80 people showed up for I want to know about it.

>>19125190
More of an 80s guy. The crush gals and dump is such a classic babyface vs heel match up and the simpler moves and the more violent matches appeal more to me than them all trying to be 90s super juniors. I do love 90s joshi though.

>>19125340
Kek, very reasonable.

Dream Queendom 2021
https://archive.org/details/stardom-dream-queendom-2021-29-12-21

Stardom 5Star Grand Prix Final 2022
https://archive.org/details/stardom-5-star-grand-prix-2022-championship-battle-01-10-22

All Star Grand Queendom 2023 (with English commentary):
https://archive.org/details/stardom-all-star-grand-queendom-2023-23-04-23

Dream Queendom 2024
https://archive.org/details/stardom-dream-queendom-2024-29-12-24

All Star Grand Queendom 2025
https://archive.org/details/stardom-all-star-grand-queendom-2025-27-04-25

Best wrestling you've ever seen? Probably not. But very watchable I think.

>>19125322
WWE is literally the #1 WRESTLING company in the world. Take the Batista fig out yo bussy playa

>>19125340
By the way, the match I linked to in >>19125202
is must-watch going into that first show I linked to.

>>19125272
it has moments but I see just as decent main events from SEAd or Oz or Marvelous for their big shows. Nothing about modern stardom stands out other than having the budget to make their ppvs look as big as a WWE ppv. Pageantry definitely has its place in wrestling but I can also get that from 90s joshi too

>>19125414
It's tough to beat anything from the 90s, so I wouldn't even try to suggest Stardom is better than those.
I have no problem with SEAd or Oz or Marvelous. I keep meaning to check out more of them. But it's hard enough getting people to check out Stardom as it is even given its status in the joshi world and those are even more obscure.

>>19125437
Even post 90s you had GAEA putting on bangers. People call the 2000s the dark age but I think that's more because they can't access content as easily from then as they can from even a lowly joshi indie today with youtube and sub services.

Ice Ribbon became pretty damn good with the rise of Fujimoto, WAVE got started and produced quite a few names, and you still had the old guard popping up on cards. Denim Toyota is underrated imo.

Long story short it triggers my tism when people only suggest stardom as if it's the sole entity of joshi. Suggesting matches from other promotions isnt an issue if they already aren't familiar with stardom because to them it's japanese women fighting regardless.

>>19125482
One of my favorite matches was 2000 GAEA - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4055UJzn1aU

Ain't nothing holding a candle even to that these days.
I push Stardom because it's what I'm familiar with on the modern scene and I've found it accessible and enjoyable. I prefer the Bushiroad-ified product over what I've seen from before (my first exposure to joshi wrestling was Dream Queendom 2021 and I'm not acquainted with what it was before Bushiroad got ahold of it apart from a few matches - I don't think I would have watched before then because I don't like seeing wrestlers under 18 and barely put up with the one or two who are there).

>>19125381
I have saved these links and the previous YouTube link. Please make peace with your loved ones as there is a chance you will not see them again if this ends up being a bunch of 12 year olds wrestling on a gym mat in emi sekuras apartment

>>19125505
I can't imagine preventing myself from watching great Hiroyo, Io, Mayu and Kairi matches because some wrestler in the opening tag is under 18

>>19125561
That’s because you have a pedophile mindset.

>>19125555
Based quads.
LMAO, fair deal. I hope you find yourself pleasantly surprised.
>>19125561
I'll put up with it to a certain extent. By the end of 2021 when I started watching it was just Rina and Hina, who had just turned 15, so they were pretty easy to not pay too much attention to.

>>19124964 (OP)
When you remove all the obvious dogshit it's a pretty good though still horribly recency bias afflicted list

>>19125582
kek the left always projects its own crimes

I think it says a lot about the lasting appeal of modern new Japan that the majority of the discussion in this thread has been about joshi.

>>19125609
the gaijin focus from 2018-pandemic was horrible and they never recovered

>>19125609
Big part of it is that Stardom is about where New Japan was when it really took off, New Japan was very much ten years ago while joshi is kind of now.

>>19124964 (OP)
this is genuinely fucking embarassing. it's like them people who say get out and parasite the best films ever. I think there's a certain type of people who get off on rating new stuff highly so they can say they witness something memorable even though in reality it's nothing special

>>19125636
spot on. I've noticed it with social media becoming synonymous with everyday life for the majority of the population: right here and now is the best thing ever at all times because I'm experiencing it.

>>19125636
Yes. It’s like a lot of people who watched one Bong Joon Ho movie and realizing there’s a lot more out there than marvel movies but not actually being interested enough to watch anything older than iron man. But at the same time their biggest haters are people who only watch marvel movies. Just a sad state of affairs.

>>19125636
So whats your top 10?

>>19125798
Films or matches?

>>19125811
both if you want

>>19125636
People are already crowning Jordan Peele the greatest horror director ever lmao

>>19125636
So much of it is recency bias, whether it's movies or wrestling.
It's not even a matter of thinking the latest is greatest. It's more that so much is so bad these days that, whenever people see something that's remotely good, they get excited and have to give it a high rating, even if it wouldn't have received that back in the day.
Whether it's Cagematch or IMDB, people aren't really rating things on their merits when the medium is considered as a whole, but rather what their reaction was after seeing it. That is why so much today is so overrated.

>>19124964 (OP)
A little less than 20, most confident answer is 18.

>>19125852
Not a list guy. Sorry. I like 80s territory wrestling in particular Crockett, mid south and Memphis. I like japanese wrestling from Rikidozan to Misawa’s death, though I struggle to enjoy shoot style or the more lazy workers of new Japan. I liked ECW but I have more of an inverse taste than most people with them, I’ve got a handful of balls Mahoney matches I like watching over and over but have never enjoyed a single Tommy dreamer match or moment. And I like the big matches from the indie boom like concussion fest featuring Danielson and Nigel all the way to absurd stuff cage of death 03.
Films, the only directors I like currently working are Del toro and bong joon ho. Otherwise I like French new wave. Felini. And kung fu movies that lean towards fantasy. And pretty much anything with fun monster costumes or animatronics.

Exactly 5

I saw page and omega vs bucks in person
It was quite good yes

>>19125555
You probably don't care but there are English commentary versions of the first and fifth show I linked too, btw. Fuck me if I can find them however - I do know they're available on Stardom World if you can navigate the place and don't mind paying a couple of bucks. The fourth show is probably a little weaker than the others but ties in quite a bit between the third and fifth show I linked to - there are actually better shows than that one but I think it's good enough.
Doubt anything will blow you away and opening matches tend to be mercifully short but I think there's a lot that's worth watching given the current state of the industry.

>>19126893
>Felini
based

>>19125005
if you can watch current wwe you can watch anything lmfaoo

>>19124964 (OP)
Bret and Austin is the only thing on that chart that matters, nothing else on that list will ever be remembered.

>>19127552
>tfw you only watch wwe

>>19127572
Nobody besides the most out of touch, clueless, no-life having smarks care about Kenny vs Okada. And they only care about it because Dave Meltzer told them to.

>>19125596
>>19124964 (OP)
Someone red-pill me on match 36. I only recognize Kenta and had to google the other 3. I don't really care for long tag wrestling but the reviews say this had a ridiculously hot crowd.

>>19127572
Chart says WWF and the truth hurts.

>>19127623
>And they only care about it because Dave Meltzer told them to.
vince told you to watch nothing else but wwe

I actually like Kenny vs Okada. Not the greatest match of all time by any stretch but it was one of the matches that got me back into wrestling six years ago or so.

>>19127729
kikuchi is the hometown guy, kobashi is one of the greatest hot tag guys ever, kroffat/furnas are good heels and bully kikuchi a bunch and get huge heat for essentially the whole half hour, fundamentally it's just a very well put together tag match

>>19124964 (OP)
30. Missing most of the post-2019 NJPW stuff and AEW from the last 2 years.

Yellow: Seen it.
Green: Actually good.

>>19129971
GOAT with the most *actually* good matches on this list

>>19128112
Just watched it and fuck me they weren't kidding. That's a 100% pure mark crowd that wants to believe. I can see why it has it's reputation.

>>19124964 (OP)
None

>>19129971
Good taste brother

>>19129971
YWNBJ

>>19129996
can't disagree here

>>19129971
>shawn vs taker
>good match

I’ve seen 10

>>19132392
It's fine. It's top 100 all time.

>>19131190
Good, Japan seems like hell for the Japanese. Constant overtime, crushing societal pressures... no thanks.

...but they have some stellar wrestling.

>>19131186
>>19129996
Kobashi is indeed GOAT contender, top 3 at the very least.

I still find this cagematch top 45 to be severely lacking... but, whatever, it's chock full of recency bias and cultish fanboyism. Needs more Tenryu, Funk, Macho, Tsuruta, Sasaki, NOAH, BattleArts, RINGS, Sting, Hase, Suzuki, Styles, Angle, Flair, Hogan, WCW/JCP, etc.