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Thread 82810592

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Anonymous No.82810592 >>82810597 >>82810609 >>82810676 >>82811007 >>82811526
Is there a reason you believe in a personal God?
It seems misguided to me to assign human attribues like love, anger, a personality and will to a being that is supposed to be above all that. I think when the Old Testaments says that humans were created in God's image, that it is the opposite. Humans have God human attributes to justify their own position as the supposed top of all living beings.
Anonymous No.82810597
>>82810592 (OP)
*gave God
Anonymous No.82810609 >>82810628
>>82810592 (OP)
well if you believe in the christian god

then I think its fair to think they are capable of love

as jesus was obviously teaching humans how to be more loving and compassionate
Anonymous No.82810628 >>82810639 >>82810670 >>82811571
>>82810609
If any Christians or Jews can answer, and I'm asking honestly with no ill will:
If God is all powerful and benevolent, why do children get leukemia for example?
If God of perfect and unchanging, how can he feel changing emotions like love or anger?
If God is omniscient then how are we free to choose to follow him? (Calvinists need not answer)
Anonymous No.82810639 >>82810647 >>82810661
>>82810628
I think free will is somehow the answer here

if you go with the original myths god gave humans a paradise once and it was rejected

the serpent and the forbidden fruit was supposed to be a metaphor for humans rejecting god and wanting indepance

some how living in a imperfect world absent of gods perfect control was the outcome
Anonymous No.82810647 >>82810656
>>82810639
If God is omniscient then there is no free will.
Anonymous No.82810656 >>82810666 >>82810934
>>82810647
there is free will imo even if he is omniciant

its like if you like choco cake and mom makes it

you still have the free will to eat it or not

its not like mom is mindcontrolling you into eating it

at the end of the day sure its yummy and you likely to eat it

but you are not mind controlled into doing so
Anonymous No.82810661 >>82810675
>>82810639
what does creating leukemia have to do with free will?
Anonymous No.82810666
>>82810656
Why do you space it like that? It's so distracting.
Anonymous No.82810670
>>82810628
even though im not muslim i have read a bit of the quran out of curiosity. its an abrahamic religion that follows the same god as judaism and christianity. in essence, it just says that all the shit happens because god thinks you can handle it and if you cant oh well. but if you dont believe in him your eyes and limbs will no longer work because he gave them to you. we only exist to follow him. so yeah, yay religion.
Anonymous No.82810675 >>82810701
>>82810661
in my interpretation

people wanted freedom from gods control

in theory if we still lived in paradise

leukemia would be something god would prevent as obviously we would live in paradise

but now that we are indepanant of god as the humans chose in the myths

now leukemia is our problem not gods to solve

right now its a huge issue

but whose to say humans don't cure it in the future
Anonymous No.82810676 >>82810686
>>82810592 (OP)
I believe in a personal God because I just can, no other explanation really
Not the Abrahamic god nor any other pagan god, just... God
Anonymous No.82810686 >>82810699
>>82810676
tsmt
i was raised by a christian mom but ive never really felt any of the mythological stuff in the bible was true. but i have always felt like there is a god out there
Anonymous No.82810699
>>82810686
>but i have always felt like there is a god out there
Unironically, there's probably no one there but... it's nice to think someone's there looking out for you
Anonymous No.82810701 >>82810732
>>82810675
but he created everything in the universe why would he design such a miserable world outside of paradise. either way we aren't free of the environment created for us
Anonymous No.82810732 >>82810761
>>82810701
cause that's what we chose

god knew wolves existed

god knew fire would burn us

god knew we would die of old age

but god loved us enough to let us choose

somehow this is a product of free will

according to myths we chose to be free of his control

now according to those same myths you can still choose paradise but you have to choose god of your own free will

the ending to life are grim according to myths

except for the jesus one I guess

if you take his interpretations

upon death everyone returns to paradise

all sins are forgivin no one goes to hell anymore

but I understand the skepticism so no worries if you reject the idea of god

everything is perfect no matter what
Anonymous No.82810761 >>82810769 >>82810772
>>82810732
we didnt chose for him to create a miserable alternative we just picked between what was presented to us
Anonymous No.82810769 >>82810797
>>82810761
well at the end of the day

you would need to be god to have what you seek

unfortunetely we are humans

the choice was have a paradise or live without it

again according to myth we chose independence

but I understand what you are saying wolves being a round is bad

but wolves gotta eat too bro

they are gods children just as we are
Anonymous No.82810772 >>82810806
>>82810761
If he knows everything that will happen then choice is an illusion.
Anonymous No.82810797 >>82810802
>>82810769
wolves could be designed in a way that doesnt necessitate perpetual suffering.
Anonymous No.82810802 >>82810804 >>82810806
>>82810797
if god controlled for that

then free will would truly not exist
Anonymous No.82810804 >>82810809
>>82810802
He doesn't?
Anonymous No.82810806 >>82810823
>>82810772
i dont think its an illusion i just think its strange that he would give us a nature prone to defying him

>>82810802
if wolves just had a different natural food source there wouldnt be free will? make it make sense
Anonymous No.82810809
>>82810804
nah the wolf is free to hunt you or not

the power of free will

c:<
Anonymous No.82810823 >>82810841
>>82810806
>if wolves just had a different natural food source there wouldnt be free will? make it make sense

the wolf has many sources

rabbits

captivity

deer

etc etc

the wolf chooses what it hunts
Anonymous No.82810841 >>82810857
>>82810823
that wouldnt be a different natural food source that would be their food source. i dont think you understood my point. why did god design wolves in such a manner that their natural food source requires them to harm his own creations when he could have designed them to have non harmful food sources.
Anonymous No.82810857 >>82810881 >>82810893
>>82810841
I do not know that answer

if god is real

you'll have to pop that question at them

best I can do is bullshit a science answer to you and say they are part of the balance of the ecosystem

wolves hunting is hugely beneficial to the enviornment

a pray without a predator causes problems

introduce predator and the ecosystem becomes sustainable

but that's just my bullshit answer

again I am not god

XD
Anonymous No.82810881 >>82810897
>>82810857
if thats the answer then the next question would be why did he design an ecosystem that necessitates that because it seems out of line with his nature of being all good. but fair enough this is just why i personally dont believe in a benevolent god
Anonymous No.82810893
>>82810857
thank you for entertaining my question and i do mess with the love motto. im gonna go eat now cya
Anonymous No.82810897 >>82811237
>>82810881
i can only bullshit here

but if humans lived for ever

dictators in power would be problem for life

the ecosystem would be hugely out of wack

we would have t rexes n shit runnign around terroizing us

XD

shit would go side ways real fucking fast if life and death did not rule over us all

I would say its just gods idea of balancing the scale and creating something for the living
Anonymous No.82810934 >>82810943
>>82810656
I'm sorry, but what you're saying makes no sense. If God knows everything that was, is and will be, then he knows weather we will eat the cake or not.
Anonymous No.82810943 >>82810969
>>82810934
not really

people prove this every day

some people eat the cake others choose not to

created us out of the same parts

how you would you explain that some people it the cake and others choose to eat other shit?
Anonymous No.82810969 >>82810982
>>82810943
Cause they were pre destined to by God. We're all different but God (if he is omniscient) knows what anyone will do.
Anonymous No.82810982
>>82810969
idk

i think even you as an individual

can both choose to eat the cake or not

I guess its an abstract concept

but i genuinely believe you have a strong enough will to decline the choco cake if you wanted

just as you have a strong enough will to eat the cake if you wished to

I do not believe you are being mindcontrolled in anyway to have no choice
Anonymous No.82811007
>>82810592 (OP)
it makes sense to me
i believe in what is writen on the-testament-of-truth.com
if you wanna check it out
Anonymous No.82811237
>>82810897
i think that response runs into the same question again
Anonymous No.82811526 >>82811697
>>82810592 (OP)
i don't really believe in God , i know he exists.
and that's becasue Logic and divinity are actually the same things, but that would be quite a long and far fetched explaination so if you want it i will give it the next post.
Anonymous No.82811571
>>82810628

for the first question , i would say it's so that the power of God will be manifested in them. the imperfection which plagues the human life today will serve as anchor to which the grace of God will overflow.

as for the second question, it's a question of our perspective, he dpoes not change but we do , and so our perception of the God. it's to simplify the communication even if it's to be taken in the improper sense of the term

knowledge and causalitry are two different things, he see the world because he's in eternity, that does not mean because you are a spectator that you arre a causer. you could replay with the fact that God is the cause of everything, but that's another question.
Anonymous No.82811697 >>82812055 >>82812070
>>82811526
go ahead anon ill hear you out
Anonymous No.82812055 >>82812081 >>82812231
>>82811697
ok so basically we have to set up a few things before

first of all is that the law of identity exists, and this we cannot prove it because it would require to already accept it to try and reason to it , same for the other 2 laws of logic.

we also need to note that said laws are not really trying to be distinct from one another but are describing the fundamental working of reality ; the structure of existance, or we could say of being.

so , the first thing to note is that accepting Logic means to accept it's universality , that is that there is not one object that is not subject to it.

so , Logic is a universal and improvable principle, but where is divinity in all of this ? and what do you mean by proof if you can't even prove Logic ?

well , the thing is i don't prove God, i prove that God and Logic are the same, you're free to choose or reject logic , even it's completely stupid to reject it ( and you have to do it without reason ).

for the first question, we know that Logic is universal , so it's also there at the beginning of the causal chain. So logic is always here , and thus here at the beginning. ( the causal chain having to have a first mover yadi yada ) even if there is no real causal chain , the fact that logic and being are inseperable makes logic the first thing to exist , one cannot exist without the other because they are the same thing.

and remember , we are talking logic as the very structure of reality , as of pure existence.

since this is the case , logic is not determined by any prior cause. but since logic is not random ( since it can't be changed in any way since it's a universal principle of existence, like how could you even change A=A (( you may change the expression of the rule , but not th reality itself )) ) well the reason of the causal chain is neither determined by pure law of determinism nor randomness. in other words , choice. Logic has chosen. can't go farther , comment too long
Anonymous No.82812070
>>82811697
and also i have lost a lot of my precision since i did this exercice a bit of time ago and there's many other things, so consider being lenient for this little text and focus on the general idea ( that i'm sure you can further to find back where i've been,what i've seen and what i live for).
Anonymous No.82812081
>>82812055
we can then show that because there was an choice , logic also has some kind of mind to make said choice, i also did not talked about divine simplicity , which is really important to make the argument a true demonstration. as again , i am rusted , but i trust my old self on this one .
Anonymous No.82812231 >>82812280
>>82812055
i could follow along for most of your argument but im not really sure i accept logic choosing itself being necessarily true. i assume thats the biggest hurdle to the argument in general
Anonymous No.82812280 >>82812339
>>82812231
i mean we can go a simpler wqy by just saying because something can not give something that he has not ( or at least the perfection) well since you have will and intelligence and since you exist then existence must have given you existence and in the same time those attributes , thus making logic have the perfections of said attributes, making it fit to be called a person
Anonymous No.82812339 >>82812394
>>82812280
i dont accept that as necessarily true either i dont think us having conscious experience means the world/god has to have it
Anonymous No.82812394 >>82812495 >>82812515
>>82812339
can you give life whilst you are dead ?
can the fire come out of the cold ?
can matter come from something that doesn't have its perfections ?
there is no cases of something coming like this , the finite does not become the infinite by itself.

such are the rules of this world , but the world is not God, for this world could have been different whilst every world would have at least one word A=A.

Logos, Logos
Anonymous No.82812495
>>82812394
i think so. do you not believe in abiogenesis for example, or rather do you think it's impossible for it to be true? same with consciousness i believe that could have emerged as some new form of biological information. not saying thats necessarily THE explanation just that i believe its possible.
Anonymous No.82812515 >>82812546
>>82812394
have you tried putting it into formal logic at some point anon? id be kinda curious since im learning to read those this term so it would be fun to use yours as an example.
Anonymous No.82812546 >>82812974
>>82812515
i've tried , i don't know where i put it , but it was like 4-5 of those 2 premices one conclusion argument bouncing back off from each other to get the final result , i vaguely remember the structure of it
Anonymous No.82812974
>>82812546
well if you find im pretty active on here or maybe add some sort of key phrase that i can search in archives from time to time. as i get through the term i might be able to put it into 0th, 1st or modal logic and evaluate it desu