Thread 82834503

If free will doesn't exist why are we mad when people do stuff that is essentially outside of their control? It's like blaming someone for being sick or injured anons. Rapists, murderers , arsonists , pedophiles and fraudsters were dealt a bad hand and instead of society trying to help them we punish them. Isn't that evil?

>>82834503 (OP)
If free will doesn't exist then nobody can control not being mad. And the universe would be just a big stupid rube goldberg machine that builds rockets for no reason and has me sending angry midwit tweets at musk for not making an affordable car (if he's supposedly so great) in response

That summarizes the no free will take

>>82834503 (OP)
>tfw no Sarah Sapolsky gf

>why do human emotions not follow logic?
Congrats anon you solved philosophy

>>82834587
>boulder rolled over town and killed thousands
>in order to make people feel better we will sink boulder into sea as punishment

>>82834552
Just seems weird

>>82834503 (OP)
>If free will doesn't exist why are we mad when people do stuff that is essentially outside of their control?

Isn't getting mad about it also out of your control? Just like starting dumb threads.

>>82834607
>boulder rolled over town and killed thousands
>in order to make people feel better we will sink boulder into sea as punishment
I spat laughing

>>82834615
We can be aware of our madness and try to course correct one another. Think of it like training Ai model you can help spread idea so more people become aware.

>>82834628
It does no one good but if we went out leveling geography, doing studies on what part of mountain was more susceptible to rock falls and where not to built it would prevent future catastrophes. Current criminal justice system doesn't try to prevent crime but make normies feel good watching govt commit revenge on their behalf. Beat barbaric and impractical

What if free will started as an impulse within man to take ownership of his good fortune, but was then guilted into hating himself for what he now believed he had chosen to do? Would the realization of this fact make you feel disoriented and confused about your own moral worth? Or would it make you feel free from moral oppression, like an innocent child?

>>82834756
Would it matter? Since u have no free will how u react to it doesn't matter at all.

Indeed punishment and revenge make no sense if there is no free will. And accordingly, the justice system doesn't try to punish anyone in revenge for doing the crimes. It serves as a deterrent, because people know the potential negative reward for the crime if they will commit them. This prevents crimes.
But also, the society is not generally ready to accept that there is no free will and therefore no one to blame for actions of bad people. We are moving in that direction, e.g. the crimes of Black people in the U.S. are now largely viewed as the product of their environment, rather than their own fault. Still this is all partial and myopic, and the society didn't reach the logical conclusion of that line of thought yet.
I believe in the future this will be considered as backwards and barbaric as slavery is considered now.

>>82834503 (OP)
>>82834552
Humans do not actually make "choices", your "ability" to "make" "choices" is actually just an expression of random factors (genetics and life circumstances) outside of your control. You are simply acting as you would have always acted under any circumstance.

>>82834919
>deterrent

Why should it only be punitive

>>82834836
It matters to you.

>>82834503 (OP)
Of course it's a kike, always a kike or a shabbos goy

>>82835795
So Jews can't have any opinions? Why can't we exist in peace from you people isn't 2k years of persecution enough to fill your blood lust.

>>82835859
so you're telling me that hundreds of different tribes and nations, completely disconnected from each other geographically and in very different periods of history have all came to the same conclusions about jews?
must've been baseless prejudice

It's refuted by any small action we can consciously control

>>82835859
No! They call us "White Devil" for a reason. We are endlessly addicted to blood! We paint it on our doors. We imagine lakes and rivers filled with it. God chose you for the diaspora so that you could be fed to us in our cannibalistic rituals. Our secret societies and covert political schemes have ensured that we will have as much blood to use for black magick as we need.

>>82834503 (OP)
Humans evolved simple shortcuts for things they didn't yet have the capability to understand more directly. Free will is one. I suspect the amount of blame society places for harmful behavior or how harshly it's punished relates to how much average people think the punishment can correct or deter that behavior. If someone is very obviously retarded we say they didn't know any better and assign them a tard wrangler, if they seem outwardly normal we want them to suffer.

The shortcuts are not perfect and people get a lot of things wrong, but they're better suited to the real world than social psychologists would have you believe when they cook up contrived cleanroom bullshit to be smug about.

>>82834503 (OP)
This is why one of the tenets of Buddhism is to hope for nothing i.e. letting go and not clinging to anything
If you don't cling to it, losing it won't hurt you as much

>>82835859
Jews are the racial ewuivalent of parasites. Allowing their thoughts to proliferate freely would be like allowing ticks to infest your bed.

>>82835989
I want retards to suffer. Imagine a retard moaning in agony retardedly. Mm, yes... it would be retarded as hell.

>>82834503 (OP)
>pedophiles and fraudsters were dealt a bad hand and instead of society trying to help them we punish them. Isn't that evil?

If we have no free will, then the punishments society imposes on criminals is also unavoidable. Society was just dealt a bad hand so society cannot help punishing criminal behavior.

>>82836164
Idk if you're just being obtuse or not. Awareness comes with layers of abstraction: the more aware you are, the greater the *feeling* of agency, the more activity one puts toward their desired ends. You spread this awareness because you gained it. It's a drive and we are its vehicles.

>>82834503 (OP)
People work backward from the answers they think are most beneficial to society. Pedophiles are a good example. People decided gays are no longer harmful so they made up "born this way". If they believed that argument made any sense they'd have to confront that it may also apply to pedophiles.

>>82836214
Don't understand your point. Going back to OPs comment
>>why are we mad when people do stuff that is essentially outside of their control?
If the arsonist lit the fire because it was outside of his control, then also, the judge giving him 20 years in prison is also outside of the judge's control.
The arsonist is aware that lighting fires is bad and against the law but chooses to do it anyway.
The judge is aware that the arsonist gains pleasure from making fires, but chooses to punish the arsonists anyway.

Simple as really.

When society truly thinks the person is extremely dumb or retarded, and was not aware they were doing something bad or against the law, then we have laws for insanity, retardation, etc that takes this into account.

>>82836268
My point is about the reason for having the discussion and the mechanism by which awareness of free will as illusion enriches one's lived experience.

>>82836286
But by this logic, theres no way to assign worth at all because you concept of worth is just a result of arbitrary quantum tomfuckery, so its not like anyone who didnt bother to find this perspective is worse off by any true measure anyway.

>>82836238
>they'd have to confront that it may also apply to pedophiles
It is known and accepted by society that psychopaths are born with bad genes, but society still locks them away after they do crimes. Being gay was different because it was argued 'they were not hurting anyone'. Pedos and psychopaths were hurting people so noone cares about locking them away, no matter the reason behind the condition.

>>82836340
I certainly feel better off. That's worth a lot to me (:

>>82834503 (OP)

The same reason I'm mad when locusts attack my crops or an alligator eats my family member. I could care less about the "agency" of locusts or alligators. If they're annoying and interfering with my life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. They should be dealt with.

>>82836393
Right, but the topic of the conversation is why anyone else should care.
To be transparent, I dont think theres anything wrong with your perspective, but it makes inevitably makes it difficult to speak in absolutes.

>>82836370
You're missing the point. People directly made the argument "they're born that way" in place of "they're not hurting anyone" even though it was obviously bullshit logic. People just fish for catchy arguments for the conclusions they already reached.

Also I think antisocial behavior is pretty well normalized and rewarded in society. It's only the Jeffrey Dahmer types that get punished and they're extremely rare.

>>82834503 (OP)
Because I don't give a shit. The machine brain/lack of free will doesn't mean that you have to tolerate specimens that make your life worse. Scientist should stick to the science, not the ethics of it.

>>82834503 (OP)
The fact that it makes us mad is also out of our control

>>82834503 (OP)
It's not punishment, they are simply removed from society.

>>82834503 (OP)
Because it's defense reaction. Just like your white cells try to kill harmful shit and infected cells, people in society inprison, kill, exile other people harming society. Sapolsky is right about free will, but he doesn't realize that punishment isn't some barbaric, needless act, but preservation strategy of bigger system/organism. Think of survival of ant nest.

Yeah that whole "no free will because brain activity starts before you decide" thing is pure retard bait. Of course it does, dumbass. Your brain is where the decision happens. Where the hell did you think free will was located, your balls? The scanner picks up the brain doing the choosing while you are choosing. The "conscious awareness" you love to worship is just the last stop on the train, not the engine. You are basically measuring the car moving and going "see it moved before I pressed the gas," when pressing the gas is the car moving because both are part of the same system.

People who think that kills free will are the kind of half baked pseudo intellectuals who read one pop sci headline and think they destroyed philosophy.

Well if there is no free will we can't help but want to punish them. The circle is complete

>>82838645
Didn't you just agree with it? How does that refute the lack of free will?

>>82834503 (OP)
wtf is the point in saying you have no free will
if it's true then it's a meaningless message although i guess it implies he couldn't not send it
it's retarded demoralization nonsense though and pointless to believe in

>>82838645
It means that the action began prior to the choice being consciously made, which implies that the "choice" isn't really a choice at all, but a post-hoc rationalization of an event that is beyond your ability to control. The consciousness has noticed an action you've taken and has assigned false agency to it by reversing cause and effect. Rather than "this thing just happened to my body", you now believe "I just did this thing".

>>82839205
The belief liberates one from a sense of moral responsibility. This allows a person to more fully embrace themselves as they are and spend less time and mental energy self-regulating according to moral judgements. That awareness, whether arrived at by choice or by the pull of fate, is valuable all the same.

freedom exists because a lot of things have first beginnings.

>>82834664
>We can be aware of our madness and try to course correct one another.
Also in your programming, same as people ignoring you and growing hostile.

>>82834503 (OP)
>if free will doesn't exist then why do people have reactions that are not up to their own will

>>82839547
Now that you know that someone has no control what would you do to a rapist? Won't you see him as a victim as much as victim who got raped?

>>82834503 (OP)
>If free will doesn't exist why are we mad when people do stuff that is essentially outside of their control?
Because the vast majority of people do not understand and take to heart what it really means for free will not to exist.

Determinism (modern sort-of calvinist predestination) is true but not aligned with our gut feeling that we make choices and should be proud of some of our decisions but not others

I read that book OP, really amazing.

Totally blows the free will people out of the water; they don't have a leg to stand on. Where do they even say free will comes from? Are you a god controlling the body from another dimension and it's just a receiver?

>>82839966
How has it changed ur perspective on greater world? Are you more sympathetic or immoral

>>82840015
>How has it changed ur perspective on greater world? Are you more sympathetic or immoral
That is a good question. Reading that book and coming to terms with it truly made me feel like i have discovered and understand a thing as powerful as understanding evolution itself or relativity.

But I dont know at all what to do with this greater knowledge on a practical level. I still have to get up and do things and feel like i am making choices and responsible for my actions. I have tried to use it to have less shame for past actions. But even that only goes so far.

Yes i am more sympathetic to all humans in general

humanity as a whole makes more sense and i view what is going on here as a chemical reaction caused by the sun shining on the elements covering the earth.

>>82840068
I sort of see it like watching movie just let things go and watch it. Your brain only gives you illusion that you are responsible for actions you make when it was pre planned already. We're all automatons in a grand interconnected play. A fisherman all way in China probably ended up rolling over to me 5 years later that would cause a major change in my life.


But self still alludes me though since that's model i perceive through the world yet simultaneously it's not in my control so is awareness as well not there. So self isn't there too?

>>82839844
Knowing =/ feeling
Knowing =/ acting
we are wired to act a certain way and most people cannot change that.

>>82840223
Act of knowing can change your perspective with additional information. So how you react to emotion changes

>>82840255
Well no you cannot do that if we do not have free will. In fact you cannot choose to do anything.