Thread 82988720

I think it's the greatest tragedy in the world that the Chinese pictographic script has been phased out in almost every country where it was implemented. The pictographic script could unite the world under a single universal pictographic written language, yet instead we're all using unintelligible phonetic scripts to express our written thoughts. Once upon a time, you could write a sentence in Chinese, and people in Japan, Korea and Vietnam would all be able to understand it, despite not speaking the language, due to the universal nature of pictograms. Imagine if everyone in the world used the Chinese script. We could be communicating right now using universal pictographic placeholders for our individual spoken languages, resulting in global literary intelligence.

>>82988720 (OP)
>global literary intelligence
Africa and India:

>>82988720 (OP)
Nobody wants to learn 4000 different symbols to communicate, alphabets are 1000x better, they make it so you can focus on learning the words and not the symbols

>>82988720 (OP)
I recognize the potential, but as a general counterpoint, different tongues and scripts will provide different ways to view the contents and subjectivity/perspectives of life. You will recognize this if you have acquired multiple different tongues; how your mindset alone can shift based on the context and culture of the associated language. I think it's valuable, but it is its distinction and uniqueness that makes hanzi/kanji as valuable as they are, not a potential universality. Just because I, knowing japanese, can infer various Chinese contents just from similar or same characters, doesn't mean I will ever comprehend the depth and significance of it without appropriate acquisition and potential study.

>>82988906
You type those words, yet you do not know what they mean. Your language is reduced to arbitrary sound complexes. The dedicated etymologist only knows why a word is what it is.

In Chinese, all words are known from their constituent characters, all constituent characters' meanings are known. Therefore, all words have concrete meaning. So don't tell me that alphabets allow you to "learn words".

>>82988916
I appreciate what you're getting at here. Even if speakers of different languages can understand the same Hanzi, the cultural weight they place upon those Hanzi will always diverge. Still, the practical weight of my initial point remains. In any translation between any two languages, cultural tone and meaning remain potential stumbling blocks.

>>82989023
Having learned a fair amount myself, you're wrong.

The "elements" you're talking about may occasionally offer some indication of meaning but more often than not the connection is extremely tenuous or non existant.

The chinese themselves saw the need for modernisation which is why pin yin and english classes were rolled out nation wide with the recent generation. They keep Hanzi BECAUSE they're unique, its a kind of cultural promotion and insulation.

>>82989097
>The chinese themselves saw the need for modernisation which is why pin yin and english classes were rolled out nation wide with the recent generation.
This is both a product of convenience and global pressure. Had China simply colonized the world 1000 years ago, as was in their power to do so, such a thing would not be. As it stands, it was England who colonized the world, so now China circumstantially has chosen to implement both the pinyin phonetic system and a complimentary universal English language program. This should not be viewed as a necessity, but rather as a reaction, though I am willing to admit that a phenetic intermediary between the spoken language and the pictographic script (i.e. pinyin) has been a helpful educational institution.
>The "elements" you're talking about may occasionally offer some indication of meaning but more often than not the connection is extremely tenuous or non existant.
For most of the standard script, the meaning is relatively straightforward. I suppose it does take some degree of intrinsic pattern recognition to associate something like "black" with "dark", but this may be why the Chinese score so highly on IQ tests.

>>82989176
You're not being honest, why do I assume that anyone discusses anything in good faith.

>>82989328
I am being completely honest. I genuinely fail to see to reasoning behind your comment. Perhaps, being a Japanese student, your understanding of the Chinese script is warped? I know several examples of how the Japanese have perverted the script beyond understanding. Like their Kanji for crab.

>>82988720 (OP)
Question OP. Do you use any of the languages that uses chinese pictographs?
Why do you think simplified chinese is a thing?
And I know some amount of japanese and I see japanese people complaining about not knowing a reading. Not just names just normal words, and having to pause and look it up. Imagine growing up and just not being able to figure out the reading right away. In fact lots of reading material need furigana for people who don't know enough kanji. Japanese people spend their entire life learning these symbols.
I'm not saying it should disappear, I just dont think the entire world should use pictographs.

>>82989384
The average Chinese 15 year old can already read 3000+ Hanzi. They do not spend their entire life learning the characters, because they have no other option. Simplified Chinese is a band-aid solution for a country of over a billion people with unequally distributed wealth. I have mixed feelings about it, especially in the age of digital literacy.

As for Japan, they suffer the result of failing to commit fully to either an imposed phonetic system or the original Chinese script.

>>82989023
I'm not saying the alphabet allows me to learn words. Writing is only a way to represent language, you don't need to overcomplicate it, a simple way to represent it works well enough.

Especially because, like the other poster said, there is no 1 size fits all solution to universal understanding. Grammar, if the language is agglutinative or isolating, and even the evolution of a language overtime will make any writing system have to change eventually, what you want is literally impossible.

>>82989420
I knew doctors and professors who had to spend time learning new hanzi because it very much is a lifelong learning process.

So much of a chinese student life is taken up with this bullshit that it comes at the cost of time spent on other subjects.

Mainland China has the most chinese people in it and it uses "simplified" script (mandarin) because all those extra strokes add nothing useful to the language while costing time when learning and writing.

>>82988720 (OP)
Even the Chinese are forgetting how to write their own language because they're all using pinyin instead lol

>>82989420
>They do not spend their entire life learning the characters, because they have no other option
Right they just have to spend their school years learning thousands of characters every year. Meanwhile you learn the alphabet in less than a year
>Simplified Chinese is a band-aid solution for a country of over a billion people with unequally distributed wealth
Blaming wealth on an overly complicated script. I guess it's a bad if poor people can learn to use it. Not even mentioning how many chinese linguists and intellectuals was in favour of simplifying or even having an alphabet to modernise.

>>82989442
>Writing is only a way to represent language
Wrong! Writing is a way to express meaning. This phonetic script you're reading right now? It has only the meaning of the sounds it produces in your brain. Now look at the name field of this post. That is a tortoise, or a turtle. It a tortoise or a turtle no matter what language you speak. The meaning is encoded in the very visual structure of the character. There is a head, a body, forelegs and hindlegs, a shell and a tail. This is the eternal tortoise represented in pictographic form, and you can call it whatever you want without changing the fundamental meaning of the character.

>>82989446
This is no different at all from English. Professions which require jargon will require the student to learn that jargon. You can go to a Wikipedia page on radiology right now and not understand shit.
>>82989455
They do not forget to read, however. The script has never been easier to write, but reading is always the same.
>>82989470
It's an investment. Once they learn the script they are set for life in a way which no other language offers.
>Not even mentioning how many chinese linguists and intellectuals was in favour of simplifying or even having an alphabet to modernise
This is a complicated issue which you ironically attempt to simplify. I have said that the "alphabet" has been advantageous to Chinese early literacy, especially in the context of an anglicized world. But it is not in any way necessary. In fact, it is still possible that the rest of the world be forced to learn the traditional script.

>>82989530
>you wouldn't understand shit
actually I would for a variety of reasons. but among those reasons would be an understanding of the roots and pre/suffixes as well as being immediately able to sound the word out and see if I've heard it before.

Kek, did you know that chinese television uses subtitles explicitly to help people learn the written script. It's also helpful because of the insane number of identically sounding words.

If I had to pick an Eastern script to be used universally it would be Korean.

>>82989530
>It's an investment. Once they learn the script they are set for life in a way which no other language offers.
Again. You are clueless. You hear a word, speak a word and you would still need to know the exact pictograph to write it. With other languages you don't have this problem.

>>82989476
Yes, by representing a language you can carry meaning. Not sure why you thought this was a huge own.

Feel free to continue using little drawings to communicate basic information if that's what you prefer, just remember you're no better than a caveman. Actual nuance and understanding requires actually knowing the other language

>>82989558
To a person who has finished education, most "new" Chinese words will simply be a recombination of previously learned characters. Not only would they be able to sound out the word, they would be able to see the potential meaning from the constituent characters. So your points are worthless in that regard.

>Korean
LOL
Make a case for this without sounding like a based retard.

>>82989575
You are clueless, for without a formal education of your own language yu wood be riting lik dis. Indeed, in China there are those who use phonetic approximates to conveys meaning just as you might.
>>82989581
You have completely lost sight of my original argument. You are as a child lost in the woods, with an intellect equally unworthy of engaging with.

>>82989625
>for without a formal education of your own language yu wood be riting lik dis
That's still understandable. Imagine me just knowing spoken chinese and trying to write fucking chinese.

>>82989598
As a person with direct experience, you are flatly wrong.

Also you can read Korean directly, its not like the others.

>>82989649
You misunderstand. Just as you may make a phonetic approximation in English, so you can in Chinese. There are countless dog Chinese scripts that have arisen over the years for this very reason, using common characters to convey phonetic meaning.
>>82989652
>As a person who shits out of my mouth, you are flatly wrong
Just shut the fuck up please. Actual retard spewing baseless shit to confuse the discussion.

>>82989713
shifting the goalposts doesn't mean I don't understand. Weren't you shilling traditional chinese script as a universal language? So is it dog scripts or trad script that you want?

>>82989713
>using common characters to convey phonetic meaning.
Sounds awfully a lot like an alphabet to me.

>>82989713
Shut your fuckwit cunt mouth retard you've been caught out being wrong and trying to sound a fuckton smarter than you are. You've been caught out because we here know what we're talking about and you fucking don't.

>>82988720 (OP)
What is Gloom called in this pic? He's my favorite

>>82989737
You were the one originally saying "I'm right and you're wrong for no reason lol". Don't expect me to entertain you, time wasting rat. You are yet to post a single fact. Start any moment.
>>82989732
Again, you try to diminish the merit of a universal script. Chinese can not only accomplish everything english/roman can, but even more. That is the point. Be less disingenuous, please.

>>82989798
Poop Flower. Not a joke.

>>82989806
Notice how he didn't answer the question, dog script or traditional?

>>82989806
Fuck off.

You were given the opportunity to discuss it like a person and you chimped out so now you get the cunt treatment.

You've been solidly blown out and now you're just restating your retarded opening nonsense. Get fucked harder than your mother at an indian gangbang.

I legit cannot think of a good use case of the Chinese writing system EXCEPT in all the dialects (really languages) of Chinese. It's like perfectly molded to the multi-tonal but monosyballic structure. In every other instance you get some Frankenstein monstrosity like Japanese where you end up needing like 5 different writing systems anyway.
t. Chinaman

>>82989816
>make retarded point based on a misunderstanding then base the rest of your argument on said point
If you had any self-awareness you would self-cringe.

>>82989837
>still won't post a single fact
>still asking people to just believe him
Sorry, but you will have to appeal to more than your own non-existent authority in the future. LOL

>>82989840
>EXCEPT
Now apply that logic to all the "dialects" of the world in general. A single uniting script which transcends spoken language.

>>82989877
he's now arguing with the chinaman.

pure gold

>>82988720 (OP)
>tonal language
DOA