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Thread 83062345

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Anonymous No.83062345 [Report] >>83062364 >>83062396 >>83062411 >>83062413 >>83062423 >>83062429 >>83062451 >>83062649 >>83062807 >>83063950 >>83063960 >>83064343 >>83064997 >>83065970 >>83066745
>Punk band tells people in 2002 that rich people don't pay taxes
>In all the years since they never bother to check the data to see if this is actually true
>They base their entire belief system on it
The economic left, everybody.
Anonymous No.83062364 [Report] >>83064763 >>83064787
>>83062345 (OP)
The left's most convincing lie was convincing the majority of the population that the people who pay the most taxes don't pay taxes.
Anonymous No.83062396 [Report]
>>83062345 (OP)
99th% is too broad, consider people on 8-figure+ income and what Occupy Wall Street did to the country
Anonymous No.83062411 [Report] >>83062686
>>83062345 (OP)
Why bother taxing the bottom if they aren't even making a dent? Just make the rich pay for it
Anonymous No.83062413 [Report]
>>83062345 (OP)
I don't believe your fake AI generated image though.
Anonymous No.83062423 [Report]
>>83062345 (OP)
The left hates primary sources. It's their kryptonite.
Anonymous No.83062429 [Report]
>>83062345 (OP)
46% is too little tho. It should be like 80-90%
Anonymous No.83062451 [Report]
>>83062345 (OP)
fuck it let em pay more taxes

believe it or not this country can have healthcasre and garunteed snap benefits

shit we could probably pull universal income out our ass too somehow

XD

TAX THE RICH
Anonymous No.83062649 [Report] >>83062764
>>83062345 (OP)
>income taxes
>not realizing that most of the wealthy's actual income are capital gains.
Anonymous No.83062686 [Report]
>>83062411
Humiliation ritual
The cruelty is the point
Anonymous No.83062764 [Report] >>83062815 >>83066777
>>83062649
Ever heard of capital gains tax?
Anonymous No.83062807 [Report] >>83063992
>>83062345 (OP)
stop lying, capital gains tax is a joke and it is by far the most powerful way to accrue wealth, by not earning it but owning it. Income tax is only tax on income via work. People have a problem with bezos because he makes billions just for owning amazon which others pay into.
Anonymous No.83062815 [Report] >>83063584 >>83064393 >>83064777
>>83062764
yes but nobody rich ever actually PAYS it.
Anonymous No.83063584 [Report]
>>83062815
Do you have a primary source for that?
Anonymous No.83063950 [Report]
>>83062345 (OP)
It is the top 0.01% that somehow makes 100s of billions a year that needs to pay more in taxes.
Anonymous No.83063960 [Report]
>>83062345 (OP)
>share of income earned as a good measure of wealth for richfags
anon..
Anonymous No.83063992 [Report]
>>83062807
You might have heard that an asteroid holds tens of trillions of dollars worth of metals! Oh! If only we could get someone up there to mine it, then the economy would be bustling with untold wealth and splendor! But no, actually. The valuation placed on the asteroid is purely speculative, and if the asteroid were indeed captured or mined, there wouldn't necessarily be buyers available to purchase every single trillion dollars worth of that asset.

The actual wealth of the world does not increase as you would hope it to. The availability of various minerals may increase as price decreases, which allows more people to access those minerals and the products made with those minerals (say, spoons or cars), but in order for your asset (the asteroid) to provide wealth, you need someone to purchase it. The value that people assign to random rocks in space is purely speculative.

The valuation of a corporation is speculative and doesn't actually reflect real assets that can be redistributed to manage wealth inequality. Bezos can't just sell $100 billion worth of his company and give that to poor people even if he wanted to, and there would need to be buyers who would pay that price as the stocks enter the market.

When Bezos receives a dividend payout from his ownership of various stocks, this is considered "income" for tax purposes:
>https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc404
When Bezos sells stocks to purchase something large, again there is a massive transfer of taxes to the government. What you are hung up on is the imaginary valuation of a company (like Amazon or Tesla) that doesn't reflect actual money. Compared to the problem if the asteroid, the problem is actually worse, because almost all of Bezos' valuation comes from the very intangible speculation on how much wealth the company can bring, or even how much investors are willing to pump the stock, but there is no asset that can be divided among the poor to feed them.
Anonymous No.83064064 [Report]
I'm more confused as to why people will readily agree that the government is inept and inefficient but also turn around and say it just needs more money to correct this.
Anonymous No.83064088 [Report]
There's a thing here in the UK at the moment where leftists are attacking our largest supermarket chain because of the gross profit it made and insisting they need to pay more in taxes and being upset at food cost inflation, ignoring the fact it has a profit margin of less than 2%.
Anonymous No.83064343 [Report]
>>83062345 (OP)
>Income is the end of his argument
Anonymous No.83064361 [Report]
if the argument is that everyone is paying their taxes, you're probably wrong, because the irs is not that effective unfortunately since it has to track like 300 million people
Anonymous No.83064393 [Report] >>83064686
>>83062815
Capital gains tax is almost impossible to avoid. If incur a gain, you pay the tax. It's not income where there are ways to shelter yourself.
Anonymous No.83064686 [Report] >>83064822
>>83064393
If it was impossible to avoid, tax havens wouldn't exist. There's a reason why tons of the ultrawealthy have bank accounts in random British Overseas Territories, or why so many multinational corporations set up in countries like Ireland.
Anonymous No.83064763 [Report]
>>83062364
Why do you think they spent so many resources convincing people of a lie?
Anonymous No.83064777 [Report]
>>83062815
How did you find this out?
Are you an accountant for rich people?
Anonymous No.83064787 [Report]
>>83062364
Also that the guy who owns a pickup truck is the bourgeoisie but not the anarcho-communist LARPer trust funder who says the truck owner is somehow privileged.
Anonymous No.83064822 [Report]
>>83064686
Tax havens don't work the way you think they do and they're mostly for shielding people from income taxes, not capital gains taxes. A capital gain is a very specific event and there are very few carve outs to allow people shelter from them.
>Ireland
That's for income tax
Anonymous No.83064945 [Report] >>83064981
Taxes are bullshit. Fica, health insurance mandate, mandatory car insurance, capital gains, sales tax, various sin taxes, fuel tax, road tax, fuel tax. Income tax is one small piece of the puzzle and it only exists to make people so angry about their tax bracket and their 22% tax rate that they overlook the much larger amount of taxes they pay everywhere else. Social security and medicare alone account for a huge amount of money stolen from the middle and lower classes. Upper class at least eventually hit a limit on what is taken for this, but then they lose even more to the other taxes. Basically everyone gets rapefucked according to elasticity of their butthole.
And what do they spend taxes on? Foreign aid, maintaining an infinite roster of employment as form of welfare do nothing office seat warmers, and busybody beurocrats, keeping old useless fucks who despite obscene wealth never planned for the future, and lazy shits who refuse to think of even their present, much less the future.
Roads are cool, army man's are cool. Honestly all that other shit like welfare, cops, foreign aid, etc. I'd rather live without.
Anonymous No.83064981 [Report] >>83065089
>>83064945
Social security is returned to the lower and middle classes when they retire. It's hardly stolen.
>welfare
The rabble would turn to crime without this
>cops
The criminals would rape you and eat your brain
>foreign aid
Soft power is what helps us not need to use our military
Anonymous No.83064997 [Report] >>83065014
>>83062345 (OP)
>top 10% holds 65-70% of the wealth in the country
>pays half the taxes
They should be paying 65-70% of the taxes
Anonymous No.83065014 [Report] >>83065043 >>83067060
>>83064997
Wealth isn't money. You can't effortless transform wealth to cash. Taxing wealth never works well and typically makes the offending country more poor. The only "wealth" tax that makes sense is the LVT because land is immobile and taxing monopolies is a good thing.
Anonymous No.83065043 [Report] >>83065056
>>83065014
>Wealth isn't money
even if that was true, the top 10% still have half the income in the country, which means paying half the taxes is fair.
Anonymous No.83065056 [Report] >>83065116
>>83065043
What do you mean even if it was true? In what world is wealth money? Some component of wealth is money but the majority is just numbers on a page. It's not real.
>top 10%
They pay 76% of taxes, so they exceed your 50% target.
Anonymous No.83065089 [Report] >>83065115
>>83064981
>Social security is returned to the lower and middle classes when they retire. It's hardly stolen.
The roi here would have any investor publicly disemboweled for misappropriation of funds and a failure in fiduciary duty. Also it's not passed through inheritance, and you can't withdraw 100% as a lump sum. It is not returned in any sense of the word. It is stolen from citizens and a pittance given in return. It's as if a rapist raped every orphan in an orphanage but it's OK because he ordered three large pizzas for them to have a pizza party afterwards.
>welfare
>The rabble would turn to crime without this
OK so we shoot them. Bullets are cheaper than jail and welfare
>cops
>The criminals would rape you and eat your brain
Not if you shoot them. Bullets are cheaper than cops and criminal court
>foreign aid
>Soft power is what helps us not need to use our military
The money saved on social security, welfare, and cops could buy the military more bullets so they don't need soft power
Anonymous No.83065115 [Report] >>83065198
>>83065089
>It is not returned in any sense of the word
It is returned or are you suggesting that social security checks aren't real?
>Bullets are cheaper than jail and welfare
The lack of order is more expensive than jail and welfare
>Bullets are cheaper than cops and criminal court
The economic destruction caused by that kind of society would be orders of magnitude larger than your cost savings. That's just a ridiculous proposition. What happens when an organized crime group appears that has more guns than the citizenry?
>could buy the military more bullets so they don't need soft power
You think it's cheaper to bomb a country forever than to just send food and medical supplies their way periodically? Your suggestion would alienate the US from the world forever. You have to be 18+ to post on this anon.
Anonymous No.83065116 [Report] >>83065158
>>83065056
>What do you mean even if it was true? In what world is wealth money?
In any world that where people isnt being disingenuous about the definitions of words.

>They pay 76% of taxes, so they exceed your 50% target
the 10% usually have more sources of incomes than their listed primary.
Anonymous No.83065158 [Report]
>>83065116
>In any world that where people isnt being disingenuous about the definitions of words.
Money facilitates trade. Wealth does not. No one trades securities for groceries. Do you think that horses are money? Cars? Of course not. So why are shares of a corporation or land money in your view?
>the 10% usually have more sources of incomes than their listed primary.
Prove me wrong then. If the 10% pay less than 50% of the taxes imposed on the people, I'll concede immediately.
Anonymous No.83065198 [Report] >>83065245
>>83065115
Would you rather have 20x the amount social security offers and you're allowed to do whatever you want with it, or whatever teeny tiny fraction social security offers you and you're bound by a million rules on how to use it?
Put another way, you give me a million dollars and once a month I'll give you a dollar for the rest of your life(as long as I feel like writing and mailing the check that month). Sounds like a good deal? Maybe not. How about you give me 15.3% of every paycheck you earn and I return a small fraction of that when you are an old retarded waste of space?
Even putting the money in a shitty investment will always outperform social security. And you can withdraw it all whenever you want, and you can pass it on to your kids. Social security is a fucking scam. They steal the money and don't return it. Returning a small fraction of it with conditions is not the same as giving back everything + appreciation based on average stock market growth for the entire duration of contributions.
Anonymous No.83065245 [Report] >>83065456
>>83065198
>Would you rather have 20x the amount social security offers and you're allowed to do whatever you want with it, or whatever teeny tiny fraction social security offers you and you're bound by a million rules on how to use it?
That wasn't your initial argument at all. Stick to what you said.
>They steal the money and don't return it
Are you denying the existence of social security checks?
>Returning a small fraction of it with conditions
Low income people typically receive more than they pay in. It's the middle and high income earners who break even or receive less. Receiving less is not the same as it being stolen. They get what they're promised.
Anonymous No.83065456 [Report] >>83065510
>>83065245
So as long as I promise to give back less than I steal from you it's not stealing?
I've been consistent. Stealing is stealing. Social security is theft. Getting a pittance back instead of the millions it should be worth doesn't make it stop being theft.
Pic related is from just the fica taxes on someone making minimum wage from 18 to 70 years old using a very conservative long term average in stock markets, representative of a very very conservative portfolio and buy and hold strategy. Minimum wage should result in $5 million dollars. You can reasonably 4x to 10x that amount assuming they don't stay minimum wage over a five decade career.
How many people on social security do you know getting checks for $5 million dollars? Remember, $5 million dollars is the value of paying fica taxes alone on minimum wage. This doesn't factor income tax or capital gains taxes they are forced to pay alongside the fica.
Min wage $15/hr, 40 hours a week, 52 years. Fica taxes 15.3% of income. 9% returns. No increase in annual contributions.
Anonymous No.83065510 [Report] >>83065790
>>83065456
>So as long as I promise to give back less than I steal from you it's not stealing?
It's not stealing. It's a tax paid to help with the general welfare of the country. The counterfactual where that tax isn't paid would see many old people starving to death in the streets.
>Social security is theft
Lolberts have this weird obsession with taxes being theft. If you don't like it, move to the woods and stop participating in society. Taxes are what you pay to live in civilization.
>Minimum wage should result in $5 million dollars
What minimum wage person is able to save any money at all? Even if you got rid of fica they're still going to have no money saved. Social security is all that prevents them from being homeless when they're retired.
>$5 million dollars is the value of paying fica taxes alone on minimum wage
Remember, poor people are fucking useless morons that are incapable of saving money on their own. If you let them have that money they'll blow it all on alcohol and scratch offs.
>Min wage $15/hr
It's 7.25
Anonymous No.83065790 [Report] >>83065822 >>83065890
>>83065510
>It's not stealing. It's a tax paid to help with the general welfare of the country. The counterfactual where that tax isn't paid would see many old people starving to death in the streets.
It's stealing. If the money wasn't stolen they'd have their own money and would not be starving in the streets. The cure(taxes) is worse than the disease(having enough + surplus of money)
>Lolberts have this weird obsession with taxes being theft. If you don't like it, move to the woods and stop participating in society. Taxes are what you pay to live in civilization.
They tax you regardless of where you live. Property taxes + income tax + fica + all the others previously mentioned. Moving to the woods results in taxes still being taken, stolen.
>What minimum wage person is able to save any money at all? Even if you got rid of fica they're still going to have no money saved. Social security is all that prevents them from being homeless when they're retired.
Nice headcanon. If they are truly worthless as you suggest why steal from them then? Clearly their money is still worth enough government wants to steal it. People should be given the choice to be rich or poor. Those who choose rich will balance out in the end with those who choose poor.
>Remember, poor people are fucking useless morons that are incapable of saving money on their own. If you let them have that money they'll blow it all on alcohol and scratch offs.
Assume I copy pasted previous response here too
>It's 7.25
In fewer than half of states is it $7.25, and again, nobody is making minimum wage their entire career.
Anonymous No.83065822 [Report]
>>83065790
Fica value if living in one of the minority of states with federal minimum wage(lowest minimum wage in the country at $7.25/hr)
So instead of $5 million it's only $2.5 million. How many people do you know on social security getting checks for $2.5 million dollars?
Anonymous No.83065856 [Report] >>83066679 >>83066714
>https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/propublica-shows-how-little-the-wealthiest-pay-in-taxes-policymakers-should?
ultra wealthy households legally paid very little federal income tax, because much of their income is unrealised gains (i.e., increases in wealth that aren't taxed until sale) rather than wages.
Center on Budget and Policy Priorities Quote: "The wealthiest can perfectly legally pay income taxes that are only a tiny fraction of the hundreds of millions, if not billions, their fortunes grow each year."
>https://www.oxfamamerica.org/explore/stories/do-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share/?
Among large, profitable US corporations, many paid zero federal corporate income tax in years despite large profits. Also estimates of global profit shifting, tax haven usage.
>https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2012/08/sdt-rich-poor-082712.pdf?utm
Also side note , CEOs earn very little salary but their wealth jumps massively via stock, etc., which is taxed differently.
Anonymous No.83065890 [Report] >>83065925
>>83065790
>nobody is making minimum wage their entire career.
Why do you lie with such confidence when literally anyone who has been to the south can see the abject poverty and instantly recognize that you are lying?

Do people like you just propagandize for your party for free and hope that no one will ever call you out so that your lies just get passively accepted as fact?

Is that your strategy? The firehouse of falsehoods. That you will just lie quicker than anyone can call you out and hope that everyone just listens and believes without challenging you.
Anonymous No.83065925 [Report]
>>83065890
I was born in Mississippi and spent most of my life there. Consistently ranked as poorest state in the whole union. The only poors there chose the lifestyle. I didn't, which is how I managed to save and invest despite starting at minimum wage of $7.25(ms is one of the minority states with federal minimum wage)
Anonymous No.83065970 [Report]
>>83062345 (OP)
Hmmm, nah, I am thinking they should pay more in taxes.
Anonymous No.83066679 [Report]
>>83065856
>Much of their income is unrealized gains
Yes, it's assets, not money. You can't pay taxes on money you don't have.
Anonymous No.83066714 [Report]
>>83065856
>ultra wealthy households legally paid very little federal income tax, because much of their income is unrealised gains (i.e., increases in wealth that aren't taxed until sale) rather than wages.
>(i.e., increases in wealth that aren't taxed until sale)
In that case, tax them then?
>they pay very little tax because they are not taxed until they are taxed
Anonymous No.83066745 [Report]
>>83062345 (OP)
Poor people love projecting. What else is new?
Anonymous No.83066777 [Report] >>83066998 >>83067034
>>83062764
Yes, it's taxed at a much lower rate than regular wagie income and the politicians constantly bitching about how the rich should pay le fair share somehow never try to raise capital gains tax rates and instead only raise tax rates that fuck over people who still work for a living like doctors and lawyers and small business owners. I wonder (((why))).
Anonymous No.83066804 [Report] >>83066871
whatever the tax system is doing, it's clearly insufficient; wealth inequality has skyrocketed in the last 50 years
Anonymous No.83066871 [Report]
>>83066804
It's less because of tax policy and more because corporations funnel every last penny available to (((shareholders))). You can thank a court case where Dodge sued Ford because Ford wanted to pay their workers more. Dodge argued that as a publicly traded company Ford should have to prioritize shareholder return over paying workers more. The court ruled the top priority of publicly traded companies should be shareholder return, which means corporations now have to prioritize number go up above literally everything else. Fuck the employees, fuck the customers, fuck the public, fuck the quality of your goods/services, corporations only exist so richfags who already have more wealth than they could spend in a dozen luxurious lifetimes and don't actually do any work can watch their portfolio continue to go up.

Since this is court precedent instead of by law, in a healthy society our lawmakers would fix this. They'd pass a law saying publicly traded corporations have to prioritize the good of the public, their customers, their employees and then finally shareholders/executives in that order. But the lawmakers work exclusively for that last group so they'll continue to get richer while everyone else just gets poorer.
Anonymous No.83066998 [Report] >>83067120
>>83066777
The income was already taxed by income taxes before it was invented. Capital gains tax is double dipping. You get taxed on the money to buy assets, and then taxed again when you sell assets. The effective tax rate is much higher than income tax because it can easily exceed 100%. Say you earn a paycheck, pay the various taxes for Medicare, social security, unemployment, healthcare, and income tax on it before the direct deposit even hits. You take this taxed money and buy 1 share of stock for $100. Less than a year later that stock is worth $500. The double dip tax rate is 37% (depends on your tax bracket). $500 sale minus $100 cost basis = $400 in income subject to tax. $148 owed in taxes even though taxes were already paid on the money used to buy the stock. More money is owed on the stock than the stock even cost.
So paycheck is taxed at 37% income tax rate plus in addition there is the medicare and social security and etc. With what's leftover you purchase stock and pay 37% on the gains. America has the highest taxes in the world. The media just lies by only counting one tax and not including the total tax burden. In the example I provided a $100 share of stock cost the evil millionaire $285 in taxes($100 share bought with income tax pay at 37% head of household highest tax bracket + highest tax bracket for capital gains=$285).
Anonymous No.83067034 [Report] >>83067120
>>83066777
Capital gains only hurts little people. Early retirement is impossible without investing. You only hurt the common man by raising capital gains rates. If you actually gave a shit about the common man you'd argue for higher sales tax. Poor people don't spend money. Those who want to retire don't spend money. Richie Richfags driving million dollar cars and yachts, six figure watches, six figure suits, exorbitant hotel stays, caviar and champagne. Sales tax is the only way to middle finger fuck you the rich without disproportionately hurting the poor more.
Anonymous No.83067060 [Report]
>>83065014
and money isn't debt yet here we are.
Anonymous No.83067120 [Report]
>>83066998
As long as income tax exists, you could use the double dipping argument against any other tax. That's not unique to capital gains.

>>83067034
If you gave a shit about the common man, you'd get rid of all federal and state income tax below 200K income as well as property tax on primary residences worth less than a million dollars.
Anonymous No.83067180 [Report]
Taxes weren't even supposed to be a thing in the US. It was started as a temporary fundraising for war. Then the greedy demons in government saw it was an easy way to get money without working so it's been an arms race to raise taxes ever since. Employer pays taxes to start a business. Pays taxes to pay employees. Employees are taxed on money they earned. What's left is taxed when used to purchase goods and services. Those selling goods and services are taxed on the money they receive from selling goods and services. Anything not spent is taxed when invested. Follow a single dollar and over its lifetime it is taxed 99.999...% The government is constantly skimming off every movement it makes, money leaves the hands of the people and concentrates in the hands of government.
This might have been one thing when money was based on something, like gold. But now the US dollar is based solely on whimsy, folly, and debt. They print it, then based on what is printed they print more because fractional reserve, which can then be deposited to increase printing based on fractional reserve. If the supply is infinite why the fuck is it taxed? If you stick it under the mattress instead of spending you still pay a quasi tax in form of inflation. So let's just skip the middle man and administration fees, collectors, enforcers, and auditors. Eliminate tax, government prints all money. Inflation means everyone is affected equally, and means everyone has equal stakes in making the government reign in wasteful spending since they know any spending by government erodes the purchase power of their dollar based on whimsy, folly, and debt.