← Home ← Back to /sci/

Thread 16697926

73 posts 12 images /sci/
Anonymous No.16697926 [Report] >>16698022 >>16698050 >>16698080 >>16698241 >>16698515 >>16699116 >>16699125 >>16699134 >>16699158 >>16699162 >>16699169 >>16700704 >>16701258 >>16704638
COAM is False
If angular momentum is conserved then any of the millions of professors doing the ball on a string demonstration would have said the ball was spinning at 12,000 rpm which is as fast as a Ferrari engine.

Why can't science engage the possibility that it is angular energy that is conserved?
Anonymous No.16697939 [Report] >>16697941 >>16698050 >>16698377 >>16699125 >>16699142 >>16700119
Oh, it's the South African schizo who doesn't understand friction
Anonymous No.16697941 [Report] >>16697962 >>16699786
>>16697939
Why the ad hominem attack? Are you unable to refute the raw facts of physics? Please try to be an adult.
Anonymous No.16697962 [Report] >>16697999
>>16697941
I don't think you're the OG angular momentum guy. Probably just a troll LARPing as him.
Anonymous No.16697999 [Report]
>>16697962
I don't care what you think
Anonymous No.16698022 [Report]
>>16697926 (OP)
>in which OP demonstrates that he is unaware of the definition of momentum
You stupid fucking tool.
Anonymous No.16698050 [Report] >>16699142
>>16697926 (OP)
>>16697939
Not even 1 minute into that debate and he was already screaming. What a fucking legend.
Anonymous No.16698067 [Report] >>16698370 >>16698578 >>16699128 >>16699144 >>16699879 >>16701191
Consider two identical disks in a vacuum with a nonzero rotational inertia, [math]I_1=I_2=I[/math], rotating at the same, nonzero rate in opposite directions, [math]\omega_1=+\omega[/math] and [math]\omega_2=-\omega[/math]. The two disks drift towards one another along a thin, massless cable until they grind together and reach a common angular velocity, [math]\omega_1=\omega_2=\omega_f[/math]. Determine the final angular velocities and whether Newton’s Third Law holds for (a) the case where total angular momentum is conserved, and (b) the case where total rotational kinetic energy is conserved.

(a)
[math]L_1=+I\omega[/math]
[math]L_2=-I\omega[/math]
[math]L_{tot,i}=L_1+L_2=I\omega-I\omega=0[/math]
[math]L_{tot,f}=I\omega_f+I\omega_f=2I\omega_f[/math]
[math]2I\omega_f=0 \rightarrow \omega_f=0[/math]
[math]τ_1=Iα_1=I \frac{\Delta \omega_1}{\Delta t}=-I \frac{\omega}{\Delta t}[/math]
[math]τ_2=Iα_2=I \frac{\Delta \omega_2}{\Delta t}=+I \frac{\omega}{\Delta t}[/math]
[math]τ_2=-τ_1[/math]
This result is consistent with the Third Law.

(b)
[math]K_1=\frac{1}{2} I\omega^2[/math]
[math]K_2=\frac{1}{2} I\omega^2[/math]
[math]K_{tot,i}=K_1+K_2=\frac{1}{2} I\omega^2+\frac{1}{2} I\omega^2=I\omega^2[/math]
[math]K_{tot,f}=\frac{1}{2} I {\omega_f}^2+\frac{1}{2} I{\omega_f}^2=I{\omega_f}^2[/math]
[math]I{\omega_f}^2=I\omega^2 \rightarrow \omega_f=\pm \omega[/math]
Note that either branch implies that one of the disks must retain its initial angular velocity and the other must end up with the same angular speed but flip its direction. Choosing the positive branch and looking at the torque:
[math]τ_1=Iα_1=I \frac{\Delta \omega_1}{\Delta t}=0[/math]
[math]τ_2=Iα_2=I \frac{\Delta \omega_2}{\Delta t}=2I \frac{\omega}{\Delta t}[/math]
[math]τ_2 \neq -τ_1[/math]
This result is not consistent with the Third Law. Furthermore, since the net torque is not zero, the rotational work on the system is not zero, which implies rotational kinetic energy was not conserved.
Anonymous No.16698076 [Report]
Consider two identical disks in a vacuum with a nonzero rotational inertia, [math]I_1=I_2=I[/math], rotating at the same, nonzero rate in opposite directions, [math]\omega_1=+\omega[/math] and [math]\omega_2=-\omega[/math]. The two disks drift towards one another along a thin, massless cable until they grind together and reach a common angular velocity, [math]\omega_1=\omega_2=\omega_f[/math]. Determine the final angular velocities and whether Newton’s Third Law holds for (a) the case where total angular momentum is conserved, and (b) the case where total rotational kinetic energy is conserved.

(a)
[math]L_1=+I\omega[/math]
[math]L_2=-I\omega[/math]
[math]L_{tot,i}=L_1+L_2=I\omega-I\omega=0[/math]
[math]L_{tot,f}=I\omega_f+I\omega_f=2I\omega_f[/math]
[math]2I\omega_f=0 \rightarrow \omega_f=0[/math]
[math]τ_1=Iα_1=I \frac{\Delta \omega_1}{\Delta t}=-I \frac{\omega}{\Delta t}[/math]
[math]τ_2=Iα_2=I \frac{\Delta \omega_2}{\Delta t}=+I \frac{\omega}{\Delta t}[/math]
[math]τ_2=-τ_1[/math]
This result is consistent with the Third Law.

(b)
[math]K_1=\frac{1}{2} I\omega^2[/math]
[math]K_2=\frac{1}{2} I\omega^2[/math]
[math]K_{tot,i}=K_1+K_2=\frac{1}{2} I\omega^2+\frac{1}{2} I\omega^2=I\omega^2[/math]
[math]K_{tot,f}=\frac{1}{2} I {\omega_f}^2+\frac{1}{2} I{\omega_f}^2=I{\omega_f}^2[/math]
[math]I{\omega_f}^2=I\omega^2 \rightarrow \omega_f=\pm \omega[/math]
Note that either branch implies that one of the disks must retain its initial angular velocity and the other must end up with the same angular speed but flip its direction. Choosing the positive branch and looking at the torque:
[math]τ_1=Iα_1=I \frac{\Delta \omega_1}{\Delta t}=0[/math]
[math]τ_2=Iα_2=I \frac{\Delta \omega_2}{\Delta t}=2I \frac{\omega}{\Delta t}[/math]
[math]τ_2 \neq -τ_1[/math]
This result is not consistent with the Third Law. Furthermore, since the net torque is not zero, the rotational work is not zero, which implies that rotational kinetic energy was not conserved.
Anonymous No.16698080 [Report] >>16699138
>>16697926 (OP)
Angular momentum isn't conserved. Neither is energy.

This is what GR teaches us.
Anonymous No.16698231 [Report]
Angular momentum isn't real. It's just useful for simplifying the math. Like kilowatt hours or the power rule in calc
Anonymous No.16698241 [Report]
>>16697926 (OP)
what if individual protons are spinning at the speed of light
Anonymous No.16698370 [Report] >>16698392 >>16699168
>>16698067
By your own math, a professor spinning a ball on a string would have it spinning at 12,000 rpm as he pulls the string and shortens its length. COAM is false.
Anonymous No.16698377 [Report] >>16698381 >>16699147
>>16697939
Mensa IQ btw
Anonymous No.16698381 [Report]
>>16698377
Schizophrenia doesn't care about your IQ. If anything, it's worse if it affects someone intelligent.
Anonymous No.16698392 [Report] >>16698393
>>16698370
By his own math, assuming COAE shows COAE to be false.
Anonymous No.16698393 [Report] >>16698417 >>16698578
>>16698392
Do you care to back up your claim or just make up strawmen argument ad absurdum because COAE cannot be refuted?
Anonymous No.16698417 [Report] >>16698462 >>16699148
>>16698393
Just inject the aids blood on live stream then we will all believe you
Anonymous No.16698462 [Report]
>>16698417
teenagers used to be funny edgy
Fedayeen Donald No.16698515 [Report]
>>16697926 (OP)
DESU it was a feat of genius to come up with Newton's laws, because they are trivial in outer space but never on earth. You toss some object and it will move in a complex curve with variable speed, rolling a wheel on the ground, and it stops by itself.
Anonymous No.16698578 [Report] >>16698624
>>16698393
>assume a=b
>a=b implies b!=c
>therefore a!=c
>YOU CARE TO BACK THAT UP!?
>>16698067 is about as simple of a case of two rotating objects as possible - same inertia, same speed, if conservation of angular energy doesn't work for even the simplest case without breaking itself, why the fuck would you think it would work for anything more complicated?
Anonymous No.16698624 [Report]
>>16698578
>assume a=b
>a=b implies b!=c
>therefore a!=c
And !a = !b
Let a = b = 1
Then !a = 2 and !b = 0
Ergo 0 = 2
Q.E.D.
Anonymous No.16699116 [Report]
>>16697926 (OP)
John, just take your fucking meds already.
Anonymous No.16699125 [Report]
>>16697939
>>16697926 (OP)
>he's back
based
Anonymous No.16699128 [Report] >>16699131 >>16699787
>>16698067
Bro "total rotational kinetic energy" is not a conserved quantity. Only total energy. The energy must be dissipated as heat in that scenario. May god have mercy on you.
Anonymous No.16699131 [Report]
>>16699128
But John Mandlbaur says COAM (Conservation of Angular Momentum) is wrong and COAE (Conservation of Angular Energy) is right
Anonymous No.16699134 [Report]
>>16697926 (OP)
Sir Mandlbaur, have you considered Noether's theorem?
Anonymous No.16699138 [Report]
>>16698080
more like GR teaches us we don't even fucking know what they really are
Anonymous No.16699142 [Report] >>16699217 >>16699790 >>16699801
>>16697939
>>16698050
>https://www.youtube.com/live/1aUeKf4Wg7M
had to rewatch it and it's somehow even better than I remembered. I've never seen someone as mind-broken as Mandlbaur. Even in the beginning where he's just asked to summarize his position and he just goes off on this tangent, repeating that he's right over and over again.
Anonymous No.16699144 [Report]
>>16698067
No offence intended, but unfortunately Kepler was wrong.
He was human and he made a mistake.
His third law has only ever been confirmed by his personal analysis of Brahe's eyeball measurements using an oversized flintstone sextant.
The reason being that Nature does not agree.
Anonymous No.16699146 [Report] >>16699152
John came back because talking to the same 3 bots on twitter became old to him after 3 fucking years
Anonymous No.16699147 [Report]
>>16698377
You cannot fault my proof so you insult me.
Is that reason?
Anonymous No.16699148 [Report] >>16699152
>>16698417
You are having a tantrum because you cannot fault my proof and do not want to face the simple empirical fact that 12000 rpm is wrongs so angular momentum is not conserved.
So you make excuses and neglect the fact.
It is literally a tantrum.
No offence intended.
Anonymous No.16699152 [Report]
>>16699146
>>16699148
Johnny boy, angular energy is NOT conserved!!!!
Anonymous No.16699158 [Report]
>>16697926 (OP)
Please debate Tooker, John. We need this
Anonymous No.16699162 [Report]
>>16697926 (OP)
Mandlbaur really had to return to /sci/ kek. Looking at his twitter, he did basically just argue with Grok and the same few Reddit stalkers for the past year and none of his posts got any traction either. He seems to be shadowbanned because he keeps on spamming the same few phrases, xitter thinks he's a bot lmao.
At a time where you've got huge communities around pseudoscience like electric universe, ancient aliens, etc., it must suck that Mandlbaur's friction denial is so fucking retarded, even those schizos check out.
Anonymous No.16699168 [Report]
>>16698370
The fuck are you saying faggot
Zhan No.16699169 [Report]
>>16697926 (OP)
Newton was the first to try prove a hypothesis with a further hypothesis and they probably said that's what they did but they called it a theory, proved the hypothesis and lost

Because the words proved the theory means you get a theory, and the words proved a hypothesis means U get a theory, and to prove a hypothesis with a further hypothesis you could make an hypothesis a theory

Case end point they did neither and said they did all 3 in a way and it sounds proven

They didn't prove a theory and lost

Check the TMS they could tell if the neurotransmitter changed from behaviour and they could tell if the behaviour was real from the neurotransmitter - that they read a magnet TMS to see a reading to determine the neurotransmitter and came back around and said now they see behaviour it's real, but when asked how they knew that behaviour MENT A THING they said they had a neurotransmitter reading THAT THEY WROTE WHEN HE BEHAVED and they lost because behaviour had no neurotransmitters backing it up except the ones they wrote down when he behaved

So ya saw
Anonymous No.16699217 [Report] >>16699219
>>16699142

Comments disagreeing with him are invariably redditcore (dis d00d do be dat bap LOLZ XDDDDD) so I can only assume that he is right.
Anonymous No.16699219 [Report]
>>16699217

NOT TO MENTION that Chinese cockroaches should considered liars by default.
Anonymous No.16699786 [Report]
>>16697941
meds
Anonymous No.16699787 [Report]
>>16699128
Yes, I know, it's called proof by contradiction.
Anonymous No.16699790 [Report]
>>16699142
holy shit that debate
Anonymous No.16699801 [Report] >>16699808
>>16699142
was jack playing retarded? mandlebaur gave a good explanation for what he meant by optimising radius reduction. all he meant was that he reduced the radius to a value smaller than 10% of the original, which in his mind (and his paper) suggests that the angular speed should be far faster than observed. look, mandlebaur is a schizo crank... but wtf was wrong with jack? sounded like bad faith argumentation to just disagree with anything john said
Anonymous No.16699808 [Report]
>>16699801
watching more. i think jack is missing the argument more than john. john is arguing that energy is pumped into the system first, and then angular momentum is broken down. so, according to john, how did that much energy get into the system? jack says, ad nauseum, that there is an external torque. however, what jack neglects to say is that the energy is supplied to the system concurrently with the external torque (it's not sequential as john argues). which means that the predicted result of the final angular speed will decrease in accordance with the torque supplied. jack should have modified john's equation to include an external torque, and show how that related to an energy delivered into the system. and he should have also included a term for friction, and how energy gets dissipated in the system. john is right that friction is negligible here, so jack should've quantified the external torque term via realistic estimates (since he seems to enjoy doing that in the video). i'll watch the rest tomorrow morning, but i have to say that i honestly think john comes out looking better in this video. jack just sounds like a reddit choycuck
Anonymous No.16699879 [Report] >>16700158
>>16698067
What went wrong with that end math tag?
Anonymous No.16700119 [Report] >>16700162
>>16697939
When will this guy give up? He's been at it for over a decade
Anonymous No.16700158 [Report]
>>16699879
No idea, checked it in the previewer twice, and even retyped and reposted it - didn't make a difference. Oh well, at least the important parts rendered correctly.
Anonymous No.16700162 [Report] >>16700614
>>16700119
You cannot convince a crank that their crank theory is wrong, you can only convince them that everything that proves their crank theory wrong is wrong.

ManBaurPig once responded to a simple proof that COAM falls out naturally from Newton's Laws by "publishing" a "paper" that "proved" the mathematics for applying a derivative to a cross product are wrong. He's also since published treatises on the mass of light and falsified Joule's derivation of the work-energy theorem from Newton's Laws.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/John-Mandlbaur
How could any man doubt that he is the Euler of our time?
Anonymous No.16700614 [Report] >>16700896
>>16700162
>man responds to slander and lies with paper supporting his claims
>i will say this in the faggiest possible way in the hopes of still making him look bad
Anonymous No.16700704 [Report] >>16704395
>>16697926 (OP)
It all comes down to centrifugal force
Anonymous No.16700896 [Report] >>16700900
>>16700614
>man writes paper "proving" 1+1=3
>"how dare you mock him!?"
Anonymous No.16700900 [Report] >>16701005
>>16700896
not even close to what he did.
Anonymous No.16701005 [Report] >>16701008 >>16701152
>>16700900
Mandlbaur literally doesn't understand how vectors or cross products work.
Anonymous No.16701008 [Report] >>16701019 >>16705400
>>16701005
sounds like he understands it to me. what has he written here do you think is incorrect? fyi, the cross product isn't well-defined insofar that it's generalizable across all dimensions. (some) mathematicians prefer geometric algebra, and it honestly should be taught over the cross product. to wit: cross products don't exist in QED and are only used in classical electromagnetism. see e.g.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exterior_algebra
Anonymous No.16701019 [Report] >>16701034
>>16701008
We're not talking about QED, we're talking about classical mechanics in three spatial dimensions, where the cross product IS well-defined and where one can trivially demonstrate that
(a x b)' = (a' x b) + (a x b').
Anonymous No.16701034 [Report] >>16701060
>>16701019
anon, you showed an image of what mandlebaur wrote regarding cross products, said he doesn't understand how vectors or cross products work, and when i showed you what he specifically said (in your own image) and asked you what is wrong... you completely fail to address this. what is your game here?
Anonymous No.16701060 [Report] >>16701138
>>16701034
Mandlbaur equates the vector, [math]\vec{r} \times \vec{p}[/math], with its magnitude, [math]| \vec{r} \times \vec{p} | = |\vec{r}| |\vec{p}| \sin \phi[/math] . Then jumps to the conclusion that any proof which neglects the explicit use of sinϕ term in cross products has made an error.
Anonymous No.16701138 [Report] >>16701150
>>16701060
>Then jumps to the conclusion that any proof which neglects the explicit use of sinϕ term in cross products has made an error.
that is not what he concluded. and even if it is, that does not imply he doesn't understand what the cross product is. on the contrary, it indicates he does know what the cross product is. all your argument indicates is that he is unaware of how the cross product is used in physics, or that he is unaware that in many of the contexts he's likely come across, it's either assumed (or proven prior) that the two relevant vectors are perpendicular.

look, the guy is obviously a crank. i am not denying that. if you're going to go after a crank, at least be correct in what you say. otherwise you're hardly better than they are. you're just as bad as that faggot jack who was arguing with him, and went into it with the mentality of
>GRRRR HE'S A CRANK ERGO HE'S WRONG ABOUT LITERALLY EVERYTHING HE SAYS
and when you say he's wrong about something that he obviously isn't, that makes you look worse than he does. you should know better.
Anonymous No.16701150 [Report] >>16701185
>>16701138
>it's either assumed (or proven prior) that the two relevant vectors are perpendicular.
Nothing about the proof for applying a derivative to the cross product requires the vectors to be perpendicular.

Take:
[math] \vec{q} = \left(q_x, q_y, q_z\right)[/math]
[math] \dot{\vec{q}} = \frac{d}{dt}\left(q_x, q_y, q_z\right) = \left(\frac{d q_x}{dt}, \frac{d q_y}{dt}, \frac{d q_z}{dt}\right)[/math]

Let:
[math]\vec{a} \times \vec{b} = \vec{c}[/math]
[math]c_x = a_y b_z - a_z b_y[/math]
[math]c_y = a_z b_x - a_x b_z[/math]
[math]c_z = a_x b_y - a_y b_x[/math]

Taking the derivative:
[math]\dot{c_x} = \frac{d}{dt}\left(a_y b_z - a_z b_y\right)[/math]
[math]\dot{c_x} = \dot{a_y}b_z + a_y\dot{b_z} - \dot{a_z}b_y - a_z\dot{b_y} =
\left(\dot{a_y}b_z - \dot{a_z}b_y\right) + \left(a_y\dot{b_z} - a_z\dot{b_y}\right)[/math]
[math]{\left(\dot{\vec{c}}\right)}_x = {\left( \dot{\vec{a}} \times \vec{b} \right)}_x + {\left( \vec{a} \times \dot{\vec{b}} \right)}_x[/math]

From which you can generalize:
[math]\left(\dot{\vec{c}}\right) = \left( \dot{\vec{a}} \times \vec{b} \right) + \left( \vec{a} \times \dot{\vec{b}} \right)[/math]

If this is applied to the case of angular momentum, it's easy to see how Newton's Laws directly lead to conservation of angular momentum:
[math]\vec{F} = \dot{\vec{p}} = m\;\ddot{\vec{r}}[/math]
[math]\vec{\tau} = \vec{r} \times \vec{F} = \vec{r} \times m\;\ddot{\vec{r}}[/math]
[math]\vec{\tau} = m\;\vec{r} \times \ddot{\vec{r}} = m\;\left(\dot{\vec{r}} \times \dot{\vec{r}} + \vec{r} \times \ddot{\vec{r}}\right)[/math]

By the proof above:
[math]\vec{\tau} = m\;\frac{d}{dt}\left(\vec{r} \times \dot{\vec{r}} \right) = \frac{d}{dt}\left( \vec{r} \times \vec{p} \right) = \frac{d}{dt}\vec{L}[/math]

If [math]\tau = 0[/math] then [math]\vec{L} = [/math] constant.
Anonymous No.16701152 [Report] >>16701161
>Nothing about the proof for applying a derivative to the cross product requires the vectors to be perpendicular.
what the fuck are you on about, sperg? where in this image (that YOU posted) is there a derivative?
>>16701005
Anonymous No.16701161 [Report] >>16701162
>>16701152
>where in this image (that YOU posted) is there a derivative?
>"... usage of the product rule..."
>"... the application of the product rule..."
>"... the product rule, when applied..."
Anonymous No.16701162 [Report]
>>16701161
Your reading comprehension is bad. John is saying product rule to mean the law of multiplication of scalars. Confirmed for autistic lmfao
Anonymous No.16701185 [Report]
>>16701150
Gay approach.

d = dot(a,b) = ab cos(t)
c = cross(a,b) = ab sin(t)
c^2 + d^2 = (ab)^2

Let P = a'b + b'a

c' = P sin(t) + d t'
d' = P cos(t) - c t'

c'^2 + d'^2 = P^2 +(d^2 + c^2) t'^2 + t'P [d sin(t) - c cos(t)]
Last term drops out
c'^2 + d'^2 = P^2 + (c^2 +d^2) t'^2

cc' + dd' = ab P
[(cc')^2 + (dd')^2 + 2(cc' dd')] = P^2 (c^2 + d^2)

The rest is left as an exercise to the reader.
Anonymous No.16701191 [Report]
>>16698067
Can you post this again with anime girls explaining it
Anonymous No.16701258 [Report] >>16702649
>>16697926 (OP)
also, you don't sound like Mandelbaur.
Anonymous No.16702649 [Report] >>16702704
>>16701258
how do you "hear" a post on 4chan. i think its time for your brain pills
Anonymous No.16702704 [Report] >>16704620
>>16702649
it's okay to have aphantasia.
Anonymous No.16704395 [Report]
>>16700704
It comes down to friction
Anonymous No.16704620 [Report]
>>16702704
acktchually no, it is not ok.
Anonymous No.16704638 [Report]
>>16697926 (OP)
Nah, you just want to say it's false because it disproves the dumb big bang theory (the state-funded creation fairy tale that defies other laws of science like conservation of matter and energy as well)
Anonymous No.16705400 [Report] >>16705403
>>16701008
Holy shit, kys retarded undergrad, Geometric Algebra is meme trash and it's not taught to undergrads for a very good reason. It was developed by Hestenes as a way to remarket Exterior Algebra, Hodge theory and Clifford Algebra. The problem is he didn't grasp the reason for this mathematics, and it became a shibboleth in his group for people who don't know what a Lie algebra or symmetry is, why Clifford algebras are important in representation theory or spin structures. If you look in the differential geometry and quantum theory this mathematics is already there in much richer and general form than GA is capable of.
Cross products are also easily generalizable to any dimension (and honestly any oriented Riemannian manifold when considering vector fields) once you realize that *(x\wedge y)=x×y and analogously define an (n-1)-ary map for an n-dimensional space with some module structure. The problem is finding a bilinear, skew-symmetric map × such that <x×y,y>=<x×y,y>=0 and |x×y|2=|x|2|y|2-<x,y>2. That is only possible in 3 or 7 dimensions.
>cross products don't exist in QED
In relativistic electrodynamics one uses the Faraday 2-form F or the field-strength tensor F_{\mu\nu}. In 3-D language F decomposes into \mathbf{E} and \mathbf{B} with the magnetic field written as a pseudovector \mathbf{B}=*(d\mathbf{A}). Thus the “nonexistence’’ of × is simply the move from 3D spatial language to 4D tensor language; mathematically it is the wedge/Hodge formalism in disguise, not a failure of the concept.
Learn basic fucking differential geometry before telling mathematicians what to teach.
Anonymous No.16705403 [Report]
>>16705400
>Holy shit, kys retarded undergra
i accept your concession. your anger reveals you lost. didn't read the rest of your post btw