Thread 16742915

>make fuel that runs in ICE cars with zero emissions.
>works ~98% as well as gasoline according to racecar drivers
>already using it in races: https://racing.porsche.com/en-US/articles/pmsc-2024-efuels-sustainability

Tell me why this won't supplant gasoline in a decade.

> too expensive, $44/gal

Yeah but they just have to make bigger batches and hit economies of scale.

>>16742915 (OP)
>Methanol
>MeOH
Huh?

>>16742915 (OP)
it's russophobic

>>16742919
Idk I just picked an image, it's prob from a journo/illustrator that doesn't know chemistry. Idk where the fficial whitepaper/press release for the process is.

>>16742919
yes, this is a very common abbreviation of methanol, Me being a common abbreviation for "meth-" the prefix meaning "one" in the sense of one carbon group, and "OH" being a common abbreviation of the hydroxide group.
Why? What's confusing?

>>16742915 (OP)
Electric cars just make way more sense, it's far too expensive to use instead of just buying a battery electric vehicle. E-fuels are more useful for things that really can't run on batteries like airplanes or ships or maybe unelectrified trains. It helps a lot that those things operate on a distinct hub model instead of the distributed networks of cars which makes logistics easy. For instance you could set up one of these somewhere in arabia and refuel both passing ships and the big airport hubs using e-fuels.

>>16742915 (OP)
You can't outcompete a resource you literally pick off the ground. If it was cheaper to create fuel from scratch than dig it out we'd be doing this already. "Economics of scale" isn't an answer, it's cope, fossil fuels simply scale better

>>16742919
>>16742954
Look up pseuoelement symbols newfags
I would like this better if they ended it after purifying methanol and maybe putting in some additives to improve compression and combustion, nobody's buying their special snowflake fuel anyway so at least they would get more out of the energy budget if they weren't trying to add extra shit
I don't believe they can possibly desalinate enough water to do this at scale using wind power anyway, must be another renewable (or "renewable") form of energy at play

>>16742915 (OP)
And f you go through trouble of separating hydrogen and oxygen from water why would you add carbon to it (generating costs) instead of just burning hydrogen?

>>16742915 (OP)
What’s missing from the conversation is energy density.

How much can we do with these fuels?

For example you can’t really tow cargo with electric batteries. Like a diesel engine can.

>>16742915 (OP)
I only drive at night thoughbeit

>>16742915 (OP)
>Tell me why this won't supplant gasoline in a decade
because, the oil lobby is big and powerful

>>16743428
Most hydrocarbon are in the same ballpark

>>16743428
>For example you can’t really tow cargo with electric batteries.
yeah i guess all those companies making self-driving EV trucks are just playing themselves

>>16742915 (OP)
>won't supplant gasoline
Making it takes energy. If there's no cheap emission-free energy it's not happening

>>16743624
bro do you think oil extracts itself with magic?

>>16743625
Oil is still an energy source with EROI more than 1. Replacing even a fraction of oil usage takes a massive amount of energy. It's been found that E-fuels for aviation are a fucking meme. It's better to use regular jet fuel and use the power to displace coal and natural gas electrical plants

>>16742919
>MeOH (sometimes MtOH)
>EtOH
>PrOH
>BuOH
etc, it's normal

>>16743632
Even if synfuel has an EROI of 0.5 the windmills can have a EROI of 20-50 for those remote places.

>>16743636
Here's the study I mentioned:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0048969723025044
>20-50
18 at best from the above.
>windmills
As with all renewables, land use would be fucking insane.
>remote
Great, now how significant are the transmission losses to the fuel plant? Oh and can the fuel plant even run from intermittent sources of power?

>>16742915 (OP)
this is supposed to be used for high duty trucks (like mining, transport and other such trucks) in the future

Zpe ... please

>>16743648
>18 at best from the above.
The average in current year is near 20 mostly because the usual wind farm is closer to populated areas than windy areas. But the outliers in remote places can go well above 50.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222703134_Meta-Analysis_of_Net_Energy_Return_for_Wind_Power_Systems

The idea of "green hydrogen" - synfuels is use those remote places like the southern hemisphere to produce electricity.

>>16743648
>now how significant are the transmission losses to the fuel plant
all the oil industry is based on the cheapness and efficiency of that "transmission"

>>16742915 (OP)
Jiga% efficiency.
Pic-rel

>>16743726
>when they're not burning oil

>>16742915 (OP)
100% of the fuel will then be burned to make the concrete and steel to build replacement wind turbines as the old ones age and fail.
Plus a little extra energy input from coal and nuclear.

>>16742915 (OP)
It's too expensive.
>just make it.. le cheaper!
Good luck.

>>16743428
>>16743614
port, drayage, and last mile are basicially completely taken over by bev now

>>16742915 (OP)
it'll supplant gasoline in 50+ years when all conventional oil sources have been used up.
even then you still have unconventional sources like shale to compete with.

>>16742915 (OP)
>muh personal cars
Have fun making airplanes and cargo ships run on E-fuel lmao
>muh global warming
It's over, Spain will experience 60C summers, Indians will get boiled alive (and that's a good thing).

>>16743634
>this is normal
>we just take the first two letters and then ape chemical formula
Yes, it is normal to be retarded. Methanol is so much harder to type.
M-ol would be a better choice. Or just CH3OH. Fucking retards.

>>16744137
You are a boring faggot.
Two-letter notation is commonly used in organic chemistry to denote various groups.
Some examples:
Me - methyl group CH3
Et - ethyl group C2H5
Ac - CH3-CH2(O) (acetic acid without -OH)
So:
MeOH - methanol
Me-O-Me - dimethyl ether
Et-O-Ac - ethyl acetate
Ac-O-Ac (Ac2O) - acetic anhydryde
AcOH - acetic acid
If it's retarded so typing H2SO4 instead of sulfuric acid must be retarded too.

>>16744164
>you are a boring faggot
>proceeds to spam more examples of pointless nomenclature